Had another session with the MC. Went well. We are doing pretty good lately. The thing I stuggle with now is the things I am realizing about myself. I never realized that EAs were really As.(in a sense)I thought As were only physical. But the more I read and think of past situations, I find myself more and more dissapointed in myself. I have never felt like I loved anyone else, I have only loved my H since I have been with him. But there were other feelings. Could it just be called lust?? I don't think I could even call it that. Towards the end of the session I was trying to describe why my A happened. I had said how other men make me feel good about myself. I described an instance where I could have started a relationship quite some time ago when our marriage was not going well. All I basically had to do was say the word. Well this upset my H. I thought I had mentioned this to him before. I don't think I made it sound like a big deal, so he did not pay any attention to me.

I was talking to a co-worker the night before the meeting with the MC and we were talking about attracting people and how it happens. I do not feel I am that great looking or have a nice body. I am average. The co-worker is a good friend and is honest and straight forward. He told me that I tend to draw people to me. I asked what he meant. He said that I have an attractive pesonality and a presence of confidence that is appealing. (He does not know what is going on with me, the conversation started because of a relationship he is currently in.)

I can not help the way my personality is, but I feel like at times, YEAH I abused it. I knew better. I can tell when I am getting to someone. So I guess from all of this rambling I am saying that I have used my personality and sexuallity purposly to feel good when my H has not done this for me. What does that make me? I am dissappointed in my H for his A. But I feel like I am so much more of a cheat then he is or has ever been. I mean we all like attention and want to still feel wanted and feel like other people would want us right? But to what extent does one go to achieve this? The dissapointment sits right here in my lap, no one elses, and you know what? It is pretty heavy!

Ann

Thank you for such an honest post. My FWW said she didn't view her affair as an affair either because it remained an EA with no sex. She still fell in love with the OM even though there with no Physical activity. It still caused our lives be turned completely upside down, even without the sex.

TooSoon

I assume that most people only think A's are physical. I think that is common. But I totally see how quickly an EA can turn into a PA. I was lucky to have not let them get the best of me sooner. I did unfortunately crumble and have a PA. I guess not realizing what I was actually doing all along finally got the best of me.

I am glad your W did not fall into the PA trap. The pain is still there of coarse, but there has to be a piece of mind that she did not have sex. I wish you both the best of luck in recovery. It sucks when you realize the road to recover is so long, when you (meaning me) are the ones who built it.

Ann

Ann- I know you're disappointed in yourself. But listen, you now have an opportunity to grow, learn and change. Now that you understand yourself better you will be able to choose and control your behavior. Life is a journey, right? And along that journey their are going to be bumps in the road, pits we fall into and some smooth walking at times. Those bumps and pits help form WHO we are - and hopefully make that person wiser, stronger and more compassionate.

Thanks to the womans movement...which moved so far to the other side....
women and marriages are now reaping what has been sown....

as pep said in her what you need from a man...

woman have been raised to believe that we need men like a fish needs a bicycyle...

Ann...this is not an attack so i am hoping to discourse..... but my observation on one little sentence in your post...that smacked me with irony right between the eyes....
and just wanted to see if you can see the way I see it...and perhaps the way husband sees it...

I was talking to a co-worker the night before the meeting with the MC and we were talking about attracting people and how it happens

The co-worker is a good friend and is honest and straight forward.

He told me that I tend to draw people to me. I asked what he meant. He said that I have an attractive pesonality and a presence of confidence that is appealing.

(He does not know what is going on with me, the conversation started because of a relationship he is currently in.)

these are all the trappings and pitt-falls of an emotional affair...

turning to a coworker
discussing your own his own personal relationship on a level that is more deeper than it needs to be...and potentially leads to alienation of the spouse partner as more is revealed that is definetly one sided..and perhaps not so attractive...

Why engage in conversations of attractiveness with male co-workers at work..

It is the top of a slippy slope that we all are so aware of....
and often we don't see it that way...

can you see this...
can you see the irony...

something went horribly wrong with a generation that truly believed that it is
normal
acceptable
and even expected
to villify the men in our lives....

that when we go to work or out with the girls/other guys......we should be ready to engage in the trashing of our husbands....directly at their expense...AND the expense of our marriages itself...

I am not saying this is you..
I am saying this is women...

and each of us needs to look at our own roles we play in perpetuating this trend....

curious as to your response...
know it is an outsider looking in so i can be way off....

ARK

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong> Thanks to the womans movement...which moved so far to the other side....
women and marriages are now reaping what has been sown....
as pep said in her what you need from a man...
woman have been raised to believe that we need men like a fish needs a bicycyle...


something went horribly wrong with a generation that truly believed that it is
normal
acceptable
and even expected
to villify the men in our lives....
that when we go to work or out with the girls/other guys......we should be ready to engage in the trashing of our husbands....directly at their expense...AND the expense of our marriages itself...

I am not saying this is you..
I am saying this is women...

and each of us needs to look at our own roles we play in perpetuating this trend....

curious as to your response...
know it is an outsider looking in so i can be way off....

ARK </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow ARK, I don't feel that I was raised that way- or taught that it was *ok* (or expected) to trash my husband. As far as the women's movement causing affairs- what about men having affairs? What is that blamed on?

I don't think that the *women's movement* contributed to my stupidity in having affairs. That was my own lack of responsiblity and morality that made me do what I did.

Ann I also may be way off here but even if there is no attraction between you and your male co-worker, it is still not a good idea to talk about something personal. The reason is because it is so easy that in the future you may meet someone who is attractive to you on many levels and if you are once again having marital problems, your habit of talking about you could be the first step on the slipery slope that could lead to an affair. Please read the late Dr Shirley Glass' book 'Not Just Friends' for further clarification on this issue.

<small>[ October 01, 2004, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

As far as the brouhaha about the women's movement I just want to say that there is a difference between 'enlightened self interest' and 'selfishness' and I beleive that the radicals in the women's movement have been promoting the latter.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
<strong> As far as the brouhaha about the women's movement I just want to say that there is a difference between 'enlightened self interest' and 'selfishness' and I beleive that the radicals in the women's movement have been promoting the latter. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have a lot to say about this one- but have already been neglecting my work this morning...will post more later.

fww...

did not link the womans movement to your affair or say that was the cause....

I am talking more globally on the common view of some women towards men ...even their own husbands...

In my opinion to engage with a co-worker (male) about the aspect of what makes people attractive and the conversations leads to this male co-worker stating specific things about you that HE finds attractive...is a slippery slope and is non-protective of the marriage or the marital vows...

mens roles and their importance as fathers is greatly diminished by a large faction in this society as well...

womans rights is and was a much different fight...than Gloria Steinmans views on men...from which that generation is raising young women...and men as well....

some views have and do make it easier for woman who engage in affairs to just dismiss their husbands...especially if they have lived a life of dismissing them....

or if they use the psycho-babble term that they are entitled to happiness...at any expense...


and some men have used it to make it easier to justify their affairs...if all they ever hear is negative stuff about them when out with friends or family..from their wives...

it's not personal though fww...
it just is.....................

ark

But what does this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong>
In my opinion to engage with a co-worker (male) about the aspect of what makes people attractive and the conversations leads to this male co-worker stating specific things about you that HE finds attractive...is a slippery slope and is non-protective of the marriage or the marital vows...
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have to do with this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong>
mens roles and their importance as fathers is greatly diminished by a large faction in this society as well...
womans rights is and was a much different fight...than Gloria Steinmans views on men...from which that generation is raising young women...and men as well....
some views have and do make it easier for woman who engage in affairs to just dismiss their husbands...especially if they have lived a life of dismissing them....
or if they use the psycho-babble term that they are entitled to happiness...at any expense...
and some men have used it to make it easier to justify their affairs...if all they ever hear is negative stuff about them when out with friends or family..from their wives...

ark </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What is "this society?"

sadfww...because it shouldn't matter what qualities a co-worker finds attractive about someone that is married...that type of conversation...teeters on crossing boundaries...

and women more typically cross those boundaries...it is my experience that men don't sit around the lunch room complaining of their wives persay...

but women will villify their husbands....often collectively...
and in my experience...women cross boundaries that don't protect the marriage...more than men is what they view as just innocent talk....

oh fww there is no doubt that 'society views divorce as an easy no big deal kids will adjust

and i am not saying all marriages should be saved...

I am saying though that women typically down play the value of men (husband) more than men verbally do so...

even on TOW there is quite a percentage of men in affairs...acting out the greatest amount of disrespect that they possilbe can...and do so with never a verbal villification towards their wives...(obviously the irony is only lost to them as their actions define them)...........

the type of conversation that ann describes has small red flags in the relevance of becoming an emotional affair....

doesn't mean she will
doesn't meas she is...

I think women don't see the pittfall of these conversations all the time because bad-mouthing of husbands is so accepted ...that surely intimate discussions must OK as well...

ARK

When was the last time a dying person regreted NOT having spent more time at work rather than with his/her family?

<small>[ October 01, 2004, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong> sadfww...because it shouldn't matter what qualities a co-worker finds attractive about someone that is married...that type of conversation...teeters on crossing boundaries...

and women more typically cross those boundaries...it is my experience that men don't sit around the lunch room complaining of their wives persay...

but women will villify their husbands....often collectively...
and in my experience...women cross boundaries that don't protect the marriage...more than men is what they view as just innocent talk....

oh fww there is no doubt that 'society views divorce as an easy no big deal kids will adjust

and i am not saying all marriages should be saved...

I am saying though that women typically down play the value of men (husband) more than men verbally do so...

even on TOW there is quite a percentage of men in affairs...acting out the greatest amount of disrespect that they possilbe can...and do so with never a verbal villification towards their wives...(obviously the irony is only lost to them as their actions define them)...........

the type of conversation that ann describes has small red flags in the relevance of becoming an emotional affair....

doesn't mean she will
doesn't meas she is...

I think women don't see the pittfall of these conversations all the time because bad-mouthing of husbands is so accepted ...that surely intimate discussions must OK as well...

ARK </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ARK- I still don't think I'm understanding you.
Yes, I agree that the conversation Ann had was inappropriate. And I agree that women may cross boundaries more frequently then men with subject matter. But what does that have to do with the women's movement?

zaxdcg vgbhbh vbnm,. zadfthyjimk zaxdcvbnjhnmk,l xzacfvgbhnk,l vbzanhmj,lawfrgyjhujoio;

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong> zaxdcg vgbhbh vbnm,. zadfthyjimk zaxdcvbnjhnmk,l xzacfvgbhnk,l vbzanhmj,lawfrgyjhujoio; </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry I tried to engage in this discussion.

sorry....fww..

the preceding was exactly what my three year old thought of that subject.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

ark

OK OK OK!!! Hold on everyone. I agree with Ark in many ways. Yes I do think women teld to talk about their H in a more outward negative way. Not really just for disrespect, but as a way to vent when they are not meeting needs. I can say this, because I USED to do exactly that. But it is something that other women understand. It does not mean we do not respect our husbands. I do not believe in the womens movement so much. If I did then I would just blame it on society today and hey maybe even men. I grew up with 3 sisters. We helped our parents run a family farm up until we left for school. My dad was a good man. He did not raise us to be week and/or bow down to anyone-ANYONE!! When I met my H and we dated and got married, it was hard for me to let go and give him any type of a I don't know position next to me. I had my opinions, ways of doing things, and really I was a down right pig headed *****. It took me an extremely long time to ease back. I belittled my H all of the time. When together with our friends, all of the time. This made him lash out and do the same to me. I think everyone thought that was just screwing around, but it wasn't. It got personal. Hey I was 20 when I started dating him. I was immature in a big way. NOT and excuse, but of coarse I used it. I finally stopped doing this at around 25 yrs old. I still see my sisters do it to their H's. My husband finally made me see the light on this. Thank god.

Now in the conversation I had with friend. I agree that those are the ones that start out to be little and can end bad. This conversation was not like that at all. He was talking about an ex girlfriend of his that said this to him about him. I found it strange and asked him if people perceived me that way. He said yes and then of coarse the explaination. I am taking all of this (conversation with friend, and info here) and educating myself as to the person I really am. Hense the title of this post.

This friend is just that. FRIEND!! More of say a little brother. One of coarse I never had. He is straight out brutally honest whether you want to hear it or not. Out of all of the guys I have had conversations with in the very past, this is different. Like I said in my original post, I can and could tell when the conversations were turning dangerous. But like you all said be careful with all conversations. I is learnin!!

Hey I love my H. He is the only man I need. I am doing my best to mold myself to be the W and person I want to be. I call this the education of life. But as far as Women's movement. That is just a bad thing to say. I truely believe we are pushed in that direction, by society and MEN!! Hey at the beginning of this I said it wasn't--I guess I lied. But it is not an excuse to let things happen.

Now Sadfww and Ark---give yourself a hug.

Ann

I am replying to myself with the last comment I made about the women's movement. I was not saying that society and men have caused us to have affairs. NOT AT ALL. I meant that they have caused to change our lives drastically. I can only say this by looking at my Mom vs Me.

She was a housewife and farmer with my dad. But she did all of the cleaning, child raising, and cooking. Her life was to take a back seat to my Dad and his needs. She did not have her own personal goals except be the best wife she could and to take care of the kids. Hey I love her and respect her for it. My mom is the best women in the world.

Now todays world is MUCH more complicated. Women must go out into the workplace to help support her family. Yes it is almost a must. Expensive world. Women and their careers are at a much higher level then in the past. We still have to come home and clean, cook, take care of the kids, and our husbands. On the more personal side we have to still be sexy, attractive, and high spirited for our husbands. (come on guys I am right even a little) Now I am not complaining. Actually I am VERY lucky. With my career, my husband is equally involved with everything. Cooking, cleaning, laundry, and taking care of our little girl. I could not ask for anything more. He is a terrific father and eventhough there are some issues, a wonderful husband. I am not the average M-F wife. I am in law enforcement and the job and hours SUCK!! Hoping to get out of it in the next 3yrs.

So just my own reply. After thinking about my last entry I made it seem like men and society were responsible for our affairs. Not the case. Do our men contribute. Unfortunetly unknowingly yes. But I am the one who made the bad choice and choices.

Ann