Hey pep !

Didn't wanna threadjack elsewhere !

The Death of OMs estranged son was a huge turning point in OMs psyche. I'll never know how much it affected the A however. He was backpedalling like an olympian well before this tragic event and he told his GF ( who told me) that it was over in his mind before Chris' death. Remember he had already taken two reconciliation vacation sin a month before his son's D, and had gone dark, only my WW chasing OM desperately kept contact going.

I have vascillated about posting 'plan A success example' thread in view of some of the 'soap opera' stuff that has happened in our life, as you say but decided i SHOULD because had Plan A NOT been in place I truly believe I would today be apart from my FWW. She was THAT out of love with me.

I DO believe that his estranged son's death DID cause OM to finally look at how toxic he had become to people around him and it certainly made him forcefully push my FWW away at the end of the A.

For sure NC was imposed quicker than without this poor boy's death.

You think this unusual situation invalidates any example posting from me ? I will post only celebration and happy journals if its not helpful! I just wanted the many sad waverers on here to see a Plan A success, however bizarre.

Post here or ping me at purebob at evomail dot co dor UK

Thanks ! Pour encourgaer les autres ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ October 05, 2004, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

OK...I'm gonna threadjack, then! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I think it would also be quite the eye-opener how your children have reacted to *all* of this.

And Bob, you were protecting them the whole way through. There's no stronger love than that!

[
The Death of OMs estranged son was a huge turning point in OMs psyche.

I was wondering... how huge a turn in FWW's psyche as a consequence of "the event"?

Has your W mentioned how the death affected her personally?

Pep

Pep so far we have talked about the future much more than the past. The things that must change, our dreams, our healing. Haven't discussed the A much at all yet. She gets tearful. Its not time yet IMO. I can be patient.

She mentioned only two things about the tragedy, firstly that she was as surprised as we all were that OM phoned her to report the death AT ALL, moreso that he apparrently told her "this will complicate things". What kind of f'kin thing is THAT for a grieving father to say to his affair partner ? (my judgment, not hers)

The only other reference she made is that it made her reassess what was truly valuable to her. Hasn't said what that was though.

For the record, ONM GF told me that OM only broke down in grief after she read him the proof letter I sent her once thery returned from the funeral trip ( it took a few days as it was the other end of the country). He told her "he didn't know how to feel about anything" and that he needed help. He is in bereavement and relationship counselling right now.

His kids by his previous 3 ex wives are VERY estranged. Apart from gifts on birthdays and xmas he's had almost nothing to do with them since D their mothers aparrently. He had little idea if his dead son was a fine man to be proud of or a thug.

Every little thing I discover about OM makes me feel more repelled that my FWW was attracted to him. I hope one bit of fog was true: "He is the opposite of you! "

Incidentally Pep, I showed her just the edge of my 'wound' under the bandage last night. Just decribed how mortally wounded I was/am. Told her just some of the stuff that you lot know. And some you don't. She cried in her hands loudly, almost woke our son. Then held me tightly. We sobbed.

I know you say we must learn the meaning of each others wounds but I am not sure we can do this Pep. Not yet anyway.

I stopped her from promising stuff like " I will never hurt you again" etc. I just kissed her. reactionary promises are no use to either of us right now. I want to avoid needless rollercoasting.

She is so hurt Pep. SO VERY HURT and she can't even feel aggrieved and righteous like I can (on a bad self-pitying day) as it is largely a self inflicted wound.

The only other reference she made is that it made her reassess what was truly valuable to her.

This is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. Thanks.

Incidentally Pep, I showed her just the edge of my 'wound' under the bandage last night. Just decribed how mortally wounded I was/am.

This is a part of your masculine
hero's gig... taking the risk of showing her your wound.

Told her just some of the stuff that you lot know. And some you don't. She cried in her hands loudly, almost woke our son. Then held me tightly. We sobbed.

Intimacy like this is a very bonding experience.

I know you say we must learn the meaning of each others wounds but I am not sure we can do this Pep. Not yet anyway.

Of course not entirely yet, Bob!

It is a process, and quite frankly, you are just discovering your own wound.

She is so hurt Pep. SO VERY HURT and she can't even feel aggrieved and righteous like I can (on a bad self-pitying day) as it is largely a self inflicted wound.

I know, and this is such a loving gesture on your part ... to open up and trust her. When you do that you heal her wound just a little bit.... "Bob trusts me with his hurt. I must be a better person right now if he trusts me so intimately."

Pep

<small>[ October 02, 2004, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
The only other reference she made is that it made her reassess what was truly valuable to her.

This is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. Thanks.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Interestingly, pep, FWW decided that "true love" was the most improtant thing of all and so emotionally threw her hat in with OM in her heart, for a while at least. I guess this was when she was at her absoulutely most spiteful and foggy.
Part of me is still concerned that she in part will always believe his lies and that he was the 'soul mate' for the second half fof her life.
i wonder how my pan A report would look if Om had drawn her TO him after HE crashed rather than the other way round ?

She still has his love letters etc for example. I told her I will be very happy the day she can destroy them with me.Early days though...early days...

<small>[ October 03, 2004, 01:40 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LINY:
<strong> OK...I'm gonna threadjack, then! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I think it would also be quite the eye-opener how your children have reacted to *all* of this.

And Bob, you were protecting them the whole way through. There's no stronger love than that! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LINY, I didn't tell the kids EVERYTHING. if you remember any of my story, the kids spontaneously beat up Mom for spending her life at Karate, making FWW spiteful with them as the truth of babes hit home.

I explained to the kids ( Mostly my VERY smart 11 YO DD) that FIRSTLY "Mommy was upset and behaving strangely owing to Nanny being quite ill. DO you remember how wierd Dad got when Nanny IVY was so ill years ago ?". That explained a lot to my DD. Next I explained that "Mommy is realising that you guys and I want her back with us, not spending all her time at Karate events ( some of them being trysts with OM).
She is sulking a little, and we are having some tough talks about it. Don;t worry though, grown ups do have HOT discussions sometimes, and feel 'not friends'. Its part of lfe and you 11YO DD are grown up enough THIS time to realise it ! She will be back with us soon, please just love her as much as you can ! And come to me with any little thing you want 'cos I'm here !"

Hugs followed as did lots of drawings for Mommy, feathers and conkers collected for amommy etc.

We had family meetings, the kids and I , to discuss the latest 'fog' and we always ended up laughing about it and I drew their attention to some little actions by Mommy that showed she was cheering up. They were great but they also broke my heart. I know everybody's kids are lovely but MINE a really, truly lovely who absolutely did not deserve the sh1t FWW heaped upon them.

Symptoms manifested themselves with DD wanting to spend more time at school than home and asking about dying and splitting up a whole lot and (worse) my 7YO S vomiting at the slightest stress and being quite wilfully naughty and disobedient.

I made their summer vacation as happy as I possibly could, lots of 'adventuring out' hugs, and fun stuff. After a while though they REALLY missed their Mom . I said they should tell her so !
They made her a card together that read:

"Summer days are not so fun
When we go without our Mum !

PLEASE come with us to the country park mommy ! we love you ! "

I had nothing to do with it. They conspired between them to produce it.
FWW crashed out of the fog next day, in part I am sure vcaused by the card. She DID join us to the country park !
SO how did this mess affect my kids ? Directly. unpleasantly. It made them scared. My honesty and sharing with them helped THEM and ME. When the kids talks about those family meetings now, FWW is touched and hurt but as no lies were told, I have no fears of what comes out.

Also I honestly think the kids played a HUGE part in ending the A and also beginning to sever the slavish posession Karate had over FWW. My words would've meant nothing. THEIR words cut to her quick.

Lessons learned by ME:
Kids always know when stuff's up. Treat them like kids, not morons.
Radical Honesty works with kids, just be careful how much honesty you give 'em and how you present it. The "karate argument" story was absolutely true, as was the "Nanny's ill, strange behaviour" one. I did not talk about the A as it was not certain it would affect the kids. And now it seems, they will keep their Mom.
WS cannot be expected by BS to exclude kids from their fog spite bullsh1t. BS must work HARD to protect kids from feeling unloved and scared. VERY hard. It was more of a priority for me than ending the A, Plan A, anythng. And I was right.


BTW in update, S had stopped vomiting at stress, and his behaviour is improving enormously. He is even more loving to Mommy and me than before too.
DD now enjoys coming home after school again ! And she said " one day will mommy be a grown up friend to me, like you are Dad ?".

This cloud has many silver linings....a friendship with my daughter is one of them. I said of course Mommy will be her friend too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bob Pure:
<strong>
Incidentally Pep, I showed her just the edge of my 'wound' under the bandage last night. Just decribed how mortally wounded I was/am. Told her just some of the stuff that you lot know. And some you don't. She cried in her hands loudly, almost woke our son. Then held me tightly. We sobbed.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob I'm so happy for you friend. If my W could show this type of remorse for her actions I would do the rest..I really could. I need my W to show this honest, sincere, true, emotional, uncontrolled, unrestrained, selfless...remorse for her actions and the pain that she has caused. The fact that I haven't seen this in her yet leads me to believe that all of her other actions are merely *window dressing. If she truly felt that her A was not justified she would react differently, with more emotion. I fear that she is still in the fog...for GOD's sake she accepted a wedding proposal from another man while still married to me and she doesnt feel badly enough to break down and cry, to show her remorse for defiling our M???? I cannot be a fool and I will not just to make myself feel better for this short period of time before the rollercoaster dips. I have learned a thing or two.

Here's to you Bob, I know how hard you've been trying and I'm happy to read that you are progressing slowly, but surely.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

FM, my FWW has not changed her stance that she does NOT rgeret the A , that it was a good thing she enjoye BUT she deeply regrets the hurt it caused.

I hope and pray that will change over time.

I cannot reconcile if she retains that view for ever.

But thanks !

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I cannot reconcile if she retains that view for ever.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob - She won't. As she draws closer to Christ, sin is seen for what it is and the remorse is intense and real. You are only at the beginning right now, and total disentanglement takes time.

Patience. Hang in there brother, you are doing great!

hey , Dear pep -

You have alluded a lot to the exploration of the 'meaning' of the wounds spouses inflict on each other.

Can you recommend a resource please so I may begin to know how to examine our own wounds ?

We are both so very very hurt, inexpert prodding will cause only pain. I don't want a pain party, I want to make sure we heal and learn.

Thanks for any advice & reference pep.

{{{pep}}}

You have alluded a lot to the exploration of the 'meaning' of the wounds spouses inflict on each other.

Can you recommend a resource please so I may begin to know how to examine our own wounds ?

There is no book as far as I know... I guess the resource is your faith...

Did you see the movie "The Passion Of The Christ" ?

wounding of the flesh
wounding of the soul
wounding of the spirit

How did your wound bring you to your knees?
Where was your pride in all of this?
Where was your faith in God in all of this?
How did being wounded make you want to hurt others?
Did the wound mean you were not loveable?
Did the wound mean you did not love enough?

It's a very individual discovery ... and I don't think I can tell you what you are looking for, but tell you just to look for yourself, and try not to pre-judge your hurt until you have had time to really partake of it fully.

Avoiding the wound will not work.... in my opinion. Timing and patience do help.

Looking at the wounds you inflicted on your W will be the hardest....

Pep

<small>[ October 05, 2004, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

pep, I think we are both beyond avoiding the hurt we have don each other.

I am no longer whole inside after this. I feel a gaping , hurting would in me, spirit, mentality , emotional, almost physical. It must be healed. I can't go through life disabled in this way.

I feel sure my FWW is similarly hurt but its really hard to sit down and discuss stuff that I know is going to hurt her. And I know the reverse is also true. She howled like a baby when we began a discussion about the legacy of hurt I carry in this, and we barely touched upon it. Upon starting the conversation, just like lifting a bandage, my guts almost started spilling out of the hole. I could barely stop talking even when she was so very upset.
I am not sure we ar estrong enough to do this now, not without some structure .

But thanks pep. Appreciated.

I am not sure we ar estrong enough to do this now, not without some structure .

~~~~~

I could not agree more!

Pep