2long said it best -

The only way you can "make" her do anything as far as growth and recovery is by showing her that life is better with you than without. Hence your darkness. She can't have it both ways. If you get into recovery she will see how you have changed, she will get to know all us wonderful people on here and she just might take an interest in all the info. Who knows, heh?.

As someone on here is famous for saying "people only change when the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of changing".

Please call one of the coaches to work with you through this.

I have to admit I couldn't stand your wife when you first started posting, but now I know that WS's go through incredible change after an affair, usually. And wouldn't it be incredible if your WW does? No false hope here but you have come this far, no reason to start getting all wimpy now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Cy:

I survive? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Yeah, I guess I do!

I've been taking mental notes of the rollercoaster ride for the past year or so. Still there. It's just different from the way it was. In some ways, it's so much more subtle that I think it's insideous. I don't have the crying sessions I used 2, but I get in2 funks still that sometimes make me wonder what's wrong with ME and why I DON'T quit.

I had several of those while on vacation last week. Really wondering why I hadn't tossed in the towel a long time ago and "moved on". But then my W showed some sensitivity after something thoughtless SHE said, and my hope soared again. Not so much because she was showing concern for my feelings, but because she ac2ally seemed 2 feel some of the pain she inflicted by her remark.

We've held hands and been very close a number of times since that "incident". Not earth-moving necessarily, but an important incremental step in recovery.

I find, while observing my own rollercoaster ride objectively as I can, that I'm more able 2 notice the subtle empathy things in her when they occur. Then, I can respond in kind better.

"Small steps, Sparks. Small steps." - "Contact"

-ol' 2long

2long,

The problem that I have after what she told me is; Why is she so non-commital with her NC letter.On second thought she is being very committed , just to the OM. Does she not realize that after those words( I want to be Mrs. Cymanca again), every day she waits just drives another nail into our M coffin. She knows that after 6 months down this path, I am now a different hurt and humiliated human being. You talk of the 3 years that you have been at your level, were there times when your WS spoke those words? How did you react? It is a different reaction when your WW may not be aware of the hurt she has caused, but when she professes to understand what she did, it becomes unfathomable.

Cy:

Yeah, there have been times when she's said those things. Things that really hurt as well as things that got my hopes up.

The one time I came home while she was talking 2 RM on the phone, for example. That was around June 2003. I came in2 the bedroom, and she got up and went in2 the bathroom 2 continue the convo. I listened 2 the one side of the convo for a bit, just 2 make sure I knew it was him. They seemed 2 be talking about his concern that others where he works would find out about the A, and she was saying that it's nobody's business. Overall tone though, even then, was that the A was dying off. But I was annoyed and went downstairs 2 my computer in the garage. Would probably have gone out driving, but I'd taken my shoes off and put on my PJs before. I could hear that the convo continued for about 20 more minutes, then she came down 2 talk 2 me. During our convo, she said she didn't want 2 have any R with him, that she wanted 2 be married 2 me. She ac2ally said "married." Since then, though, most of her remarks are anti-marriage. Including the one last week, which seemed 2 have triggered her empathy some after.

I guess the point I'm trying 2 make with this rambling is that I'm doing better all the time not hanging on every little remark she makes, even though I still get affected by them. Not so badly though, and not getting my "hopes up" 2 much at the same time.

Also, remember: My W never left me. It's pretty hard 2 know what's going on in someone else's mind if you're not even around them most of the time. Hard enough when you are.

-ol' 2long

Weaver,

You said

I have to admit I couldn't stand your wife when you first started posting, but now I know that WS's go through incredible change after an affair, usually. And wouldn't it be incredible if your WW does? No false hope here but you have come this far, no reason to start getting all wimpy now

If that would happen , I would say that the A would have been the best thing that could have happened to my WW and to our M. And I am not kidding! She has demonstrated at times thru our M the ability to be that loving, caring, empathetic person that I crave. It is those memories that keep me on MB. Her past has shown that she is not truly capable of that sustained level of commitment. For me, that uncertainty is the greatest factor in me not wanting to stay.

Cymanca this is why I think you should talk to SH. See what he says about the possibilities and how is the best way to proceed from here.

If your WW thinks she might have lost you at her own hands then she may have some kind of major enlightenment. When people are brought to their knees by their own selfish actions than incredible change is possible.

Don't let your fear stop you at this point, you deserve to see this to the end and so does she.
This is love and where true intimacy is possible maybe even for the first time in your marriage.
You have survived the worst now, your eyes have been opened and you can see this to the end.

At the risk of sounding like a pest, please call Harley.

<small>[ October 05, 2004, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: weaver ]</small>

I had a really nasty ,shouting conversation with WW about the divison of some property and the selling of some assets this afternoon. I am more p*ssed at myself for letting me listen to her revisionist version of our history.

I decided to go see a movie tonight( I love movies). Went to see Ladder 49. Not a bad flick but not what I expected. Thought I would see another version of Backdraft but this movie was much more on the personal level of firemen and what they go through and what they put their families through(Tom Joad!!!!!).

Anyway as the hero Joaquin Phoenix is reminiscing on his walkie talkie, he tells John Travolta that " Tell my wife I love her. I loved her the moment I saw her for the first time". Broke me up. The exact thing I told my WW throughout our marriage but especially when things got rough. I met her when she came to me as a patient. As God is my witness when she left I prayed he would make her my wife. I always told her that I was going to grab a newspaper that day and write it in the margins about my prayer to God.Then I would give it to her on our wedding day. Hokey, probably. Romantic, yeah I'm an incurable romantic.I didn't do it and I have always regretted it!

Anyway, I almost started sobbing in the theater. I did not realize that I have this much emotion still in me! So I sit here in my office at 10:00pm ,staring at her picture with the OM, and I undersatnd that God already answered my prayers and brought her to me once.

I hope he can answer my prayers one more time and bring her back.

Maybe it's time to take the picture of your WW and OM down. It served a purpose when you put it up...is it serving a purpose now?

Weaver,

Yeah, I think it has an ever increasing purpose. It takes me from what my WW said( I want to be Mrs. Cymanca again) to what she is doing ( Jack Sh*t). The tears I shed are not from the picture but from the fact that as much pain as she professes to be in she has chosen the boat waiter as her future.

I have told my attorney to proceed with the division of property. He has been told to force the issue at this point and my WW is starting to talk about how it could be done. My D can be final 10-21-04. I desparately want my M over before the OM comes back in for their genital dance at the end of the month( although my WW insists he is not coming in. Just like she was just friends and did not love him).

Since she filed for this action I think that I should hold her to the 10-21-04 deadline. I will tell her on that date if I have not received the NC letter OR if cabin boy comes in to town, I consider my vows to be concluded. All that is left is the property.

I will give her what she wants. I always have.

Cy:

Hope4future's H did something like you're doing now. He told her 2 go ahead and DV him, then let her stew in her own juices. She stewed and stopped the DV 2 weeks before it was final.

I would just stay silent as much as you can. She knows what she needs 2 do if she wants 2 stop the DV. You don't need 2 remind her. Let her fester, and maybe she'll wake the hell up.

-ol' 2long

2Long,

This is not a ploy. Going back to your previous post, I can not fathom being in this position for 3 years. I am 50 years old, I want children, I deserve a woman that can love me like I deserve. I had a stroke 2 years ago. As melodramatic as it sounds, I don't know how much more time I have on this earth. I know I will not spend it waiting for a woman that has so little respect for herself that she could continue in this fornication. I know I am a hell of a guy. ALL my ex girlfriends and even my ex-wife have a good and respectful relationship with me and you couldn't pay me enough money to say anything derogatory about any of them.

Cy:

But, like nearly everyone I've talked 2 has said, when you don't think you can go on any longer, you usually wind up finding you go on longer. All the while, personal growth continues. For me, a 51-yr old atheist, I think this is a very spiri2al journey, one that I might not have made if the A hadn't happened. I won't quite go so far as 2 say I'm grateful that it did (though I may have even said that at some point), but I am grateful for the education I've gotten, and I'm enjoying the sparks of enlightenment I see my W experiencing, though they may be infrequent.

I still think that staying silent and letting the DV take its course is your best bet. What she does or doesn't do in the next 2ple of weeks will tell you a lot about her character.

-ol' 2long

2Long,

Her character has never been in question, it leaves a lot to be desired. What she has done is exactly the way she has acted her whole life. What WW wants, WW gets, and damn the consequences. My hope, that I outlined in a previous post, is that this would shake her out of that me,me,me attitude. She is like a lot of people that don't realize if you want to be treated well, teat everone else even better than you want to be treated.

To hear the changing reasons that she say caused the A are just laughable. It changes from day to day and will probably continue to change. If you listen to her I am a moral degenerate that abused HER, kicked the cats, treat my patients like cr*p, and was always picking fights. The next fight I pick with her will be the first one. The WS desparate search for justification of their A's is mind boggling.

Like Isaid before , last week she complained about not being Mrs. Cymanca anymore: not one bit of remorse about HER actions that caused all this mess.

Cy:

I've known people like that. My W even became one of those people, and a lot of the troubles we had during her A and after D-day are due 2 her continued efforts 2 try 2 justify her choices rather than face them, face the fact that she was selfish, and build a better her from her experiences.

For a lot of people I read about on here, BSs as well as WSs, the realizations that you need 2 see your W making will require her hitting rock bottom. And the impending DV, after which you will not be obligated 2 even speak 2 her for the rest of your life, is often one of those final lows for many WSs (which is why I mentioned H4F's sitch).

Whether this will be her rock bottom or not is what remains 2 be seen. Also, whether she's got a "true character" that is vir2ous and truly above this kind of selfish behavior, remains 2 be seen. Either way, I bet you'll feel a whole lot better about your own fu2re choices in a 2ple of weeks, because one way or the other, she'll give you a difinitive answer (even if she remains wishy-washy, you'll know you don't need that anymore).

Actions speak, words don't.

-ol' 2long

I hope he can answer my prayers one more time and bring her back.

He can't answer your prayers because you keep changing. In the beginning of this thread you were unsure, in the middle you wanted her, now at the end you seem like you don't. How is God supposed to give you what you desire when you don't know what you want?

2long knows what he wants, that is why he is willing to put in the time needed to see it through. Also she already is the mother of his kids and I think that probably weighs heavily on his decision to stay the course.

This is what happens when you take yourself out of Plan B, your emotions change according to the words of the WW.

I never knew you wanted kids, and that certainly puts a different perspective on this.

Choose the mother of your children according to her ability to be a loving, giving, compassionate, stable person. Especially if you might not be around to raise them fully. I know this is what you are thinking about, and I really hope she learns the lesson she needs in order to become this loving person in time.

I now see why a timeframe is of the essense here.

Wish I had something to say which would help. Just trying to put down my new observation and understanding of your sitch.

Weaver,

Yes, I keep changing. But that change is predicated on the actions of my WW. The definition of an idiot is that when he is faced with the same circumstances , they expect the outcome to be different. When my WW acts even remotely like a loving caring person that wants our M to work, I definitely see some hope. Unrealistic but hope none the less. When she DOES NOTHING to back up her words, that tells me that I am the epitome of Einstein's idiot by expecting the outcome to change even though my WW is not.

IT IS THE WW fault that I am at this stage of vacillation, not mine. Consistent behavior was there 2-3 months ago. Getting kicked in the groin repeatedly is not a formula for that consistency. If that makes me a bad person, I apologize. I think it makes me a person that recognizes the effects this A has caused me. No more , no less.

In short I have given my WW quarter, and gotten none i return except for the continued illusion of that apparition called marriage.

No Cymanca, I meant anything but. You are no more a bad person than anyone else who loves.

What I meant was that Plan B is designed to take you away from the useless, changing, un-backed up words of the WS, so you don't have the emotional roller coaster ride so much. You still have it bad enough in your head without the added confusion of the WS's "fog".

You are not a bad person, you are one which is to be admired, that is for sure. I know a lot of guys who would have moved on because their ego couldn't withstand the rejection, but you have not.

Hang in there, you are under a great deal of confusion...par for the course.

Cy:

"Yes, I keep changing. But that change is predicated on the actions of my WW."

Why? If you need 2 change (we all do, in some way or another), then change because it's good for YOU, not because you think someone else requires it OF you.

"When my WW acts even remotely like a loving caring person that wants our M to work, I definitely see some hope. Unrealistic but hope none the less. When she DOES NOTHING to back up her words, that tells me that I am the epitome of Einstein's idiot by expecting the outcome to change even though my WW is not."

You can hope, but you can't expect. Expecting any paritcular outcome will only disappoint you when you don't get what you expect. Even hope can lead imperceptably 2 expectations. So be careful. Again, stop expecting your W 2 do ANYTHING because of some change you've made. Do the changes for you, because it makes you a better person. If you don't expect her 2 do anything for you or the M, then you won't be disappointed no matter what she chooses 2 do, including not choose.

"IT IS THE WW fault that I am at this stage of vacillation, not mine."

No, it's not. Sorry. We are each entirely responsible for the way we react 2 ANYTHING. We make a CHOICE. Other people can try 2 manipulate us, but it's our own fault if we let them succeed.

"Consistent behavior was there 2-3 months ago."

Good, but this isn't long enough 2 make it a permanent habit, necessarily. Certianly, a WS won't be convinced that the changes are "permanent" after so short a span of time. Such is the na2re of the process of dealing with an A.

"Getting kicked in the groin repeatedly is not a formula for that consistency. If that makes me a bad person, I apologize."

No need for an apology. It makes you HUMAN. A lot of us are human...

"In short I have given my WW quarter, and gotten none i return except for the continued illusion of that apparition called marriage."

When you stop expecting her 2 do anything, you'll be much more at ease with yourself and able 2 move on without her if you have 2.

-ol' 2long

2long and Weaver,

Thanks for the running commentary. I really appreciate both of you. I guess that I am in the same position that juke was in with Dv date fast approaching.

Quite honestly, I am physically and emotionally spent. My brothers accident, my office move, and problems with my family and best friends telling me to run away from WW as fast as I can, takes a toll. I thought I had been coping real well but obviously it was just on outward appearances. Deep inside, I can't easily walk away from my commitment to my M and I am being torn apart between two opposite forces. Maybe this is natural, as others have alluded. Maybe I am just not the strong person that I thought I was.

Cy:

The good news is that you can accomplish the most right now by doing NOTHING at all. The date is fast approaching. What she does or doesn't DO will tell you what you need 2 know. Again, her ACTIONS will speak 2 you, not her words.

-ol' 2long