I've pretty much come to terms with the fact that I'm getting a divorce (which is why I hang out on the Divorcing/Divorced forum mainly), but I thought I'd toss a question out to you guys over here that's been burning in my head for a while now:

Can the WS be totally convinced that divorce is the only option while in the fog of an affair?

It sounds to me like a lot of WS get themselves into an affair, start talking nonsense about "true love", "soulmates", "finding their happiness elsewhere" and so on, but don't actually ask for a divorce. My STBXH is VERY foggy right now, but he keeps saying over and over that divorce is our only option, that he needs to be free to pursue a life with the OW wherever it takes them, that it was a mistake to get married, that he is absolutely 1000% convinced that he wants a divorce, period, end of story.

Obviously, my biggest worry is that I'm consenting to a divorce that he will ultimately decide he doesn't want, after he's dragged me through the depths of hell and back. At this point, I'm starting to see the merrit in a divorce simply because I really do not want to keep winding up in this cycle as he cluelessly destroys everything I hold precious in his quest to "find himself". It's not the first time he's dumped me for another woman, after all. It's just the first time that we've been married when he's found his "soulmate" (I HATE THAT WORD!!!!) in someone who is not me.

He's bipolar, and given the characteristics of the illness, this behavior is pretty typical as I understand it. It's not an excuse, however. I'm just ready to wash my hands of him, but I have the teeny little problem of still loving him very deeply and perhaps a part of me wants to believe that this divorce business is just fog talk. However, that scares me as well since it means there's the possibility of him wanting to try to make things work at some point in the future, either before or after the divorce is final, and... Well... I don't know. Ugh.

I don't know all the details of your story, but it sounds like it is FOG talk to me. A legal separation is another option you can consider. But read up on Plan A and B first on this site if you haven't. When my wife was in the middle of her EA, she wanted a separation and to think about divorce. We have decided to work on M, but still have a long, long way to go with no guarantees. Now that she is somewhat out of the FOG, she doens't want a separation. I think when WS's are in a PA or EA, a separation gives them more room and justification to explore their relationship with the OP. This is a total slap in the face to the BS. Consider these things before you take action. Good luck.

Jmash

Jmash,

Unfortunately, we are separated. He moved out suddenly about 3 weeks ago, and I decided to move closer to school to avoid the dangerous commute. So, we're living about 15 miles apart, in separate cities. It is not the ideal situation I was hoping for, but it's the one I'm in regardless.

I'm glad you agree it sounds like fog talk. That's my big suspicion, anyway. There's a lot of crossed signals happening here... He's been hinting at wanting a divorce for about a month, and when I came out and asked him directly if he wanted to work on the marriage, he said no. BUT, he still wears his wedding ring. What the...? Another is his weird sense of priority. He won't go with me to meet with a divorce mediator because he'll be seeing the OW that day. Again, what the...? You'd think that getting a divorce would be rather high up on the list of things to get done if you're so damn committed to having a relationship with another woman!

But as far as he's concerned, he's told me over and over in no uncertain terms that we need to get a divorce. Followed closely in the same breath by the statement that OW is his soulmate, that he feels like he's doing the right thing (he even went so far as to say that God is showing him this is the right thing to do... Uh, where is it in the bible that it says it's acceptible to leave your wife for another woman?), and that he feels so alive and wonderful and happy doing this awful, miserable, hurtful thing to me.

I will take another look at the Plan A/B stuff and see if I can manage to make it fit my situation. I also have heard that when a mental illness is involved, the MB principles are hard to enforce. That's part of the reason why I feel so hopeless about saving the marriage. H is a smart man, but his brain is wired differently than other people's.

Double post. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<small>[ October 04, 2004, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: Sarahbellem ]</small>

SB,

Hi. My WW is also bi-polar, and I know what it is like to hear things like that. Is your H on medication for his condition? You are right that just because he has BP, it does not excuse his actions, but at the same time, if he is not on medication for it, he most likely has no control over them either. With that said,
It sounds like fog talk to me as well. Have you read up on plan A/B? If you still love him, it might be worth it to try and work through a good plan a or b first. At the very very worst, if you do end up in a D, you will be a better person. But lets try and stay positive! I am sorry to hear that you are in this position, I know it is very hard to hear the person you love say those things.
One of the first things I was told to do while in IC, was to make out a list of all the things that I could REALLY put up with while my WW was struggling with BP. The list, surprising to me, was extremely long. This was not like a pro con list, but more like a list to help myself. All of the things that WW does that are on that list, which is in my pocket, do not produce LB for me anymore, because I have already acknowledged that I can deal with that stuff. The things she does not on my "can deal with it list" were told to her as a set of boundaries that she was informed that hurt me. NOTICE: I did not tell her NOT to cross the boundaries, only that they hurt me when she did.
I don't know if this helps you any, but my prayers go out to you!

Hopingtofix, thank you for your words of encouragement. No, my H is not on meds right now, though we have discussed the "eventuality" that he will need to be on them. He is currently in IC and that's a big milestone because he was afraid to see one for years. I'm hoping that the therapist (who I also see separately) will help encourage him to accept medication. He's not cycling at the moment, but the last several years have been mostly one big depression for him. The A might very well be a manic episode, but at the moment he's very lucid and very rational. Which just makes it even more confusing!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sarahbellem:
<strong>

....... There's a lot of crossed signals happening here... He's been hinting at wanting a divorce for about a month, and when I came out and asked him directly if he wanted to work on the marriage, he said no. BUT, he still wears his wedding ring. What the...? Another is his weird sense of priority. He won't go with me to meet with a divorce mediator because he'll be seeing the OW that day. Again, what the...? You'd think that getting a divorce would be rather high up on the list of things to get done if you're so damn committed to having a relationship with another woman!

But as far as he's concerned, he's told me over and over in no uncertain terms that we need to get a divorce. Followed closely in the same breath by the statement that OW is his soulmate, that he feels like he's doing the right thing (he even went so far as to say that God is showing him this is the right thing to do... Uh, where is it in the bible that it says it's acceptible to leave your wife for another woman?), and that he feels so alive and wonderful and happy doing this awful, miserable, hurtful thing to me. .......

...... H is a smart man, but his brain is wired differently than other people's. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi, SB.

I had to jump in briefly and maybe help clarify a couple of points.

Your husband knows that what he is doing is morally wrong. Hence the insistence on divorce, all the while avoiding it. This is why he continues to wear his wedding ring.

He also understands on some level that the attachment he feels toward the other woman is his brain feeding him weird signals, but he likes how it makes him feel. Also, the sense of loss when he is not around her seriously depresses him. This drives him back to her. Fortunately, this chemical condition is likely to change soon since he is bipolar.

On anther post, you wondered if he is in a manic state. This is highly likely.

It is true that this all looks like "fog", and it is, the only difference in your husband and a normal fog bound person in an affair is in AMPLITUDE, and the corresponding reaction to the changes. This is where it gets very weird for someone suffering from bipolar disorder.

I have two suggestions that will be a bit counter intuitive.

1) In no uncertain terms, and with as little emotion as possible, tell him that you want him back in the marriage sans the other person. Tell him that you will forgive him if he will stop the affair and come home. DO NOT SHOW ANY ANGER.

2) Ignore any divorce action by him, and take none right now. If you can, give him at least two months to change.

There is a very good chance that once he cycles again, he will run for cover away from this other person.

After he is back home, he needs to get on medication at least for a while. IF and I am talking a big IF, he is truly smart, and a lot of bipolar people are, then if he will spend a year on medication, after it is at therapeutic levels, he can learn what 'normal' is. Once he has truly studied 'normal' it is possible for him to use the knowledge of 'normal' as a filter for his actions. Please do note that this is an unconventional approach, but it has merit.

There is a way for both of you to learn to live with his condition. He DOES have to learn to be responsible for his behavior. He has to understand that simple rule if the two of you are to have a chance. You do NOT have to tolerate wild behavior. He does have some control over what he does.

In your situation, when your husband crashes, be there for him. You must be forgiving. I know that is unfair to you, but he is going to loathe himself in a potentially destructive way - a self-punishment of sorts.

Once he is back and through the crisis portion of the realization of what he has done, then you insist that he get on medication.

The deal breaker in your marriage needs to be your husband's handling of his condition. He simply MUST manage it responsibly.

You have to decide if you want a future with this man. Unbridaled, he has the potential to be a truly destructive force in your relationship. Controlled, he can be the best mate you can imagine. The choice to face the challenge is yours. One thing you can't do is sit on the fence in this situation. That is truly a recipe for pain.

All the best,
Gimble

Gimble, your post really hit home. Not in a bad way, but in that "naked truth" kind of way. I'll admit that I latched onto the divorce without thinking rationally... I'm the one who is doing all the footwork for the D, too. I took it upon myself in a state of profound hurt and anger, and perhaps this was my way of getting "revenge" on my H for the pain he's putting me through. I'm calling his bluff, so to speak. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to stop the process. It's another week and a half before we meet with the mediator (although I have to reschedule once again so it may be longer) and that does buy me a little time to collect myself, I suppose. And even when the papers are filed, there's still the 6 month waiting period before it is finalized. I have a sneaky suspicion that come my birthday in January, I'm going to find a very sympathetic, very remorseful H on my doorstep, but that's just a hunch at this point. Nothing is certain, of course. It's complicated by the fact that even though I love my H beyond all reason, I'm starting to like the prospect of starting over. I would rather "start over" with him, true, but I'm so foggy right now with Betrayed Spouse feelings that I'm not positive at this point I *want* to try to pull this marriage together. Is this a common way to feel as a betrayed spouse?

Perhaps I should listen to that nagging little voice that's trying to get me to set up an appointment with Dr. H. It's that same nagging little voice that is screaming at me "YOU'RE MARRIED, DAMMIT!!! FIGHT FOR YOUR MARRIAGE WITH ALL YOU'RE WORTH!!!"

How do you think I should approach a Plan A/B at this point? Seeing as how we're not living together, it would be hard to enforce a Plan A... Perhaps I should skip to Plan B? Or a combination of sorts? I think his getting on medication at this point would be number one on *my* list of needs, emotional or otherwise. Please keep the advice coming!

SB wrote:
========
I'll admit that I latched onto the divorce without thinking rationally... I'm the one who is doing all the footwork for the D, too. I took it upon myself in a state of profound hurt and anger, and perhaps this was my way of getting "revenge" on my H for the pain he's putting me through. I'm calling his bluff, so to speak. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to stop the process. It's another week and a half before we meet with the mediator (although I have to reschedule once again so it may be longer) and that does buy me a little time to collect myself, I suppose. And even when the papers are filed, there's still the 6 month waiting period before it is finalized. I have a sneaky suspicion that come my birthday in January, I'm going to find a very sympathetic, very remorseful H on my doorstep, but that's just a hunch at this point.
========

It sounds like you understand the bipolar process more than you think. I agree that what he has done is completely reprehensible and stupid. I am counting on the 'stupid' part to be the part he can't stand. I think that when he is able to see his actions clearly again, the disgust factor will peak, and Miss Soulmate will very quickly become intolerable. That is also part of the process.

As a bipolar, he has already learned that he is capable of living with you. He also knows what a blessing that is for him. An additional motivation for his inappropriate action is that he finds that being dependent on someone else, in this case you, since you have learned to tolerate his less than shining moments, to be overly confining. It won't make sense to you, but it is something that he has to eventually come to terms with and accept.


SB wrote:
========
.....I'm not positive at this point I *want* to try to pull this marriage together. Is this a common way to feel as a betrayed spouse?
========

Of course. Others here can fill you in much better than I can with those details.

SB wrote:
========
Perhaps I should listen to that nagging little voice that's trying to get me to set up an appointment with Dr. H. It's that same nagging little voice that is screaming at me "YOU'RE MARRIED, DAMMIT!!! FIGHT FOR YOUR MARRIAGE WITH ALL YOU'RE WORTH!!!"
========

Counseling would be a great. Just remember that most plans are not going to be an exact fit considering your husbands condition. Having said that, the MB plans are solid and substantial and will help your situation.

SB wrote:
========
How do you think I should approach a Plan A/B at this point? Seeing as how we're not living together, it would be hard to enforce a Plan A... Perhaps I should skip to Plan B? Or a combination of sorts? I think his getting on medication at this point would be number one on *my* list of needs, emotional or otherwise. Please keep the advice coming!
========

I think that others here can outline the MB principles and much better than I can. I do think that plan B would NOT be a good idea now. If you want him back, then you are going to have to execute something of a plan A with a bit of additional firmness and a lot less emotion applied.

I completely agree that he needs to be on medication, however, you can't demand that of him just yet. That will have to be his decision and he has a few others to make first.

Do your homework - study about bipolar disorder (the clinical disease itself). Be careful about what you read about bipolar disorder from third parties. Others experiences with bipolar persons will vary wildly.

Study the principles outlined here. Get in contact with one of the councilors here. Get informed before you make a decision on your marriage.

Of special note - lose your anger with your wayward husband. He will react to that in a worse way than anything you throw at him. That is not fair to you, none of this is. What he has done is not fair to you. Life it not fair. It is what it is.

All the best,
Gimble

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Gimble:
<strong> It sounds like you understand the bipolar process more than you think. I agree that what he has done is completely reprehensible and stupid. I am counting on the 'stupid' part to be the part he can't stand. I think that when he is able to see his actions clearly again, the disgust factor will peak, and Miss Soulmate will very quickly become intolerable. That is also part of the process.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

Yes, I am pretty familiar with bipolar disorder. I briefly dabbled in abnormal psychology early in my college career (that's me, a career student!) and have always been facinated with pyschology in general. While I haven't read up on BP recently, I have a pretty good grasp of the disorder from an outsider's perspective. I think that was possibly one of the things that attracted WH to me initially... I didn't judge him as "crazy" or "weird" but was accepting of his illness and open to working with him. It's funny because I am not a terribly patient person by nature, but living with WH in my life for these last 4 years has taught me a lot about patience. Unfortunately, my knee-jerk reaction to betrayal is even more deeply ingrained in me. I have a zero-tollerance policy for philandering, so this has been a BIG challenge to try to figure out how to set aside my wounded pride and try to reason with a very unreasonable person. We've also been through this break-up cycle more than once, so in a way, I suppose it wasn't much of a surprise that he'd try to end the relationship again. Just like I'm fairly certain he'll try to salvage the relationship once more. Bipolar disorder is a very predictable illness!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>As a bipolar, he has already learned that he is capable of living with you. He also knows what a blessing that is for him. An additional motivation for his inappropriate action is that he finds that being dependent on someone else, in this case you, since you have learned to tolerate his less than shining moments, to be overly confining. It won't make sense to you, but it is something that he has to eventually come to terms with and accept.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

My mother is fond of telling me that he only has a limited number of "routines" in his bag of tricks and I've figured them all out. Rather than diversifying, he bails on me when he's gone through all his acts and needs to be with someone fresh, someone he can fool into believing he's normal, someone who will not challenge him to confront difficult things in his life (some good, some bad).

What's strange is that he's never demonstrated this kind of behavior in other relationships. So far I'm the only one who has had to endure the cycle of break-ups based upon finding the Real One True Love Of His Life(tm) and then coming back after he's cycled out of the haze once more. I'm special!


<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course. Others here can fill you in much better than I can with those details.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

If anyone can chime in, please do! I really would love to hear how other BS's feel about trying to make the marriage work. Especially if you're dealing with feelings of ambivilance or hopelessness or something along those lines.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Counseling would be a great. Just remember that most plans are not going to be an exact fit considering your husbands condition. Having said that, the MB plans are solid and substantial and will help your situation.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

I am currently in IC, being seen by the same therapist who sees WH. I'm considering asking that we have a joint session soon, though. That, and I'm not feeling like I'm getting a lot of mileage out of my sessions. My therapist seems to be spending a lot of time telling me things I already know or am doing, but not really giving me any real advice that would help bring me to a more secure spot in my life right now. It's frustrating.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I think that others here can outline the MB principles and much better than I can. I do think that plan B would NOT be a good idea now. If you want him back, then you are going to have to execute something of a plan A with a bit of additional firmness and a lot less emotion applied.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

Okay, I'll go back and study the Plan A stuff and see if I can't devise something that works. I'll repost it here for feedback.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I completely agree that he needs to be on medication, however, you can't demand that of him just yet. That will have to be his decision and he has a few others to make first. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

I agree with you. I have not pushed the issue medication at all, although we did have a sort of topical conversation about it last week where I suggested he needs to consider being "open to the possibility" of being on medication. I explained that recent research has suggested that BP individuals show a type of siezure activity in their brains that closely resembles a type of epilepsy. My layman's grasp on the research is that it explains why people who have this particular kind of epilepsy are sometimes mistaken for having BP, and also why certain classes of anti-siezure medication work in treating BP (Depakote, for instance). Putting it into the category of a neurological disorder, rather than attaching the stigma of a mental illness, seemed to make him receptive to the idea anyway. Only time will tell, though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Do your homework - study about bipolar disorder (the clinical disease itself). Be careful about what you read about bipolar disorder from third parties. Others experiences with bipolar persons will vary wildly. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

Totally! Everyone's BP spouse who I've talked to has a completely different scenario, but with similar themes. Some are violent, but my WH is very docile. Some are primarily manic, but WH tends more towards the depression side of things. Of course, most are highly intelligent, very artistic, and too attuned to other people's emotions and behaviors. Most of WH friends are either divorced, or unhappily married for one reason or another and I know that causes him to get paranoid that our relationship is also doomed to fail. Then there's the fact that he thrives on angst, another BP classic trait...

He is, in fact, the classic suffering artist. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Study the principles outlined here. Get in contact with one of the councilors here. Get informed before you make a decision on your marriage.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

Will do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Of special note - lose your anger with your wayward husband. He will react to that in a worse way than anything you throw at him. That is not fair to you, none of this is. What he has done is not fair to you. Life it not fair. It is what it is.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

Except for one slip up last Friday (and boy was it a biggie) I am trying to vent *away* from WH. Yes, he should know that I am not happy with what he's doing, but he doesn't have to hear me raging about it. I'm trying, really, really trying to let the anger go.

<small>[ October 04, 2004, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: Sarahbellem ]</small>

SB.

You are going to do fine through this. You are a smart lady and you have good base to work from.

With his condition, your husband is being more stupid than enamored of the other woman. This is bad because he has flung himself into a full blown affair very quickly, but it is good because he is as likely to run away from it as quickly as it started.

While anything is possible, the emotional entanglement part of the affair is less likely to get a serious grip on him.

The caution regarding anger is to preserve his feelings toward you. They are an invisible lifeline as he thrashes about screwing up his life and the life of the unsuspecting other woman. The presentation of firm, but uncompromising love, reinforces the perception that life at home with you is the only 'normal' he is certain of. The real trick is to get him on a straight path once he does return.

I am very glad you are rethinking divorce as the only option, it certainly isn't, and your relationship is certainly worth saving.

You can do this.

Gimble