NW - Another thought I had was that maybe your H figured that, since he'd had an affair, he couldn't really complain if you had one too. It may just have been that he felt he really had no RIGHT to question you about your whereabouts and what your were doing after what HE'D done. And you know what? Maybe this will work out best in the end for your marriage, since both of you have been betrayers, one of you is probably not going to act self-righteous about this towards the other. In any case, I wish you both all the best for the healing of your marriage. Prospects for that sound very hopeful. SHA is one wise dude. Regards and blessings,<P>--Wex

Wex,<P>Thansk for responding. Yes, I do believe that the fact he'd had an affair made it even more impossible for him to question me. He was so nervous about keeping the fact that he'd had one concealed, he was terrified to even bring the subject up. The sad part, though, is that if I, too, was a conflict avoider, I don't know where we'd be right now. You see, when I found clues that he'd had an affair, I could have easily turned a blind eye, like he did. After all, how dare I say anything when I was knee deep into my own? But my desire to fix things prevailed. I couldn't stand what we'd both become, and I wanted things fixed ASAP! If things couldn't be fixed, then I wanted out. One thing was certain, I was not going to continue to live in that madness. No way!<P>You're also right that I do feel that our dual affairs is a mixed blessing. Neither of us can act above or better than the other. As I commented to DG99, I guess we're both "scums of the earth" in some people's eyes, and that's fine with us. Just further proof that we're a match made in heaven! <P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

new woman - Sorry it took me so long to respond. Wex may be onto something here. Since your H had already had an affair, it may have had an impact on how he reacted to the things you did. After all, he had already been thru the aftermath of an affair and had already felt its impact and it could have dulled his senses to the point that he SAW what was going on, but didn't really PAY ATTENTION.<P>You said he was deep in DECEPTION MODE during a lot of your affair. Maybe he was too busy covering his own tracks to see what was happening on the "other side of town". That could definitely be distracting.<P>I wouldn't have reacted that way. In my situation, there were never any of the normal signs. W never went out without me, her work hours really weren't that unreasonable even though long, there were no unexplainable calls either into or out of the house and she was always there when I called home(every single night, by the way, at her insistence) when I was out of town on business.<P>Had I seen any of these signs, I probably wouldn't have confronted her about it because that always leads to dishonesty on her part if something is wrong. In either case, she exhibits great and lasting anger whether I would have been on to something or not. So I would have avoided any confrontations, but started a covert operation to find out what was really going on.<P>If she had not crossed the line into a physical affair from the emotional, I might not even know today. It's just that when she crossed that line, it was such a burden that she had to tell me. It happened on a Thursday while I was out of town and she told me on Saturday when I got back. I give her credit for that, but the debit side of the ledger has a lot of red ink.....

" I can't make you love me, if you don't "<P> ~ Bonnie Raitt ~<P>. . . any questions ?

New Woman:<P>I don't know your H, but perhaps he didn't know it could happen to him. I certainly never thought it could happen between Petunia and me. She would never do something like that. The handwriting was on the wall for me too, and when I look back now, I think "How could I have been so stupid?" But at the time, an affair seemed ridiculous to me.<P>Perhaps that seems less likely for your H, since he cheated first, however, I believe that probably had NO impact on his ability to see what you were doing. He probably thought that even though HE was doing it, there was no way in heck that YOU would do it too.<P>In my situation, I always thought that if EITHER of us cheated, it would have been me. I always seemed to be the one who couldn't sit still, who got tired of things being the same all the time. I never thought she would do it, so it took some REALLY stupid blunders on her part to make me catch on.<P>We can be SO blind when we want to. I'm betting your H's conflict avoidance probably helped him see what he wanted to see.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P><BR>

Lonestar and Heartpain, thanks for your input. You know, I thought that same way.... that even though I was having an affair, no way could my H do such a thing! But, when the evidence fell into my lap, I had to act on it. But, that's because I'm the opposite of a conflict avoider ---- conflict seeker? <P>My H was so scared, terrified really, of me finding out what he had done, I guess there was no way he'd call attention to it. But, there is evidence that he wanted things fixed, he just didn't have the "conflict management" skills or strength to make it happen. I had to do that. At first, I was even resentful that it had to be me to be the one who made the first move to "fix things," but I got over that.<P>The important thing is that we both wanted it, and that we are rebuilding and moving forward. I try not to, but it's just hard not to look back sometimes.<P>Thanks again, guys!<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Lone Star - <BR>You really hit me with this one:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>In my situation, I always thought that if EITHER of us cheated, it would have been me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's exactly how I felt. I was dissatisfied with our sex life and the level of intimacy we had and thought about cheating several times. Luckily for me, I just couldn't bring myself to do it. I didn't want to cause the pain that I am now suffering and I didn't want the marriage to end, just to find some closeness.

Hi new woman,<P>It's been so long since I posted on the Forum there can't be more than a few people who even remember me. Anyways, here's hoping you do. Or, maybe I'll just change my name to Lazarus and start over <P>I'm of such mixed feelings about being gone for weeks. So many people are posting now and things change so quickly, it's a daunting task to even attempt a catch-up.<P>Anyhoo, your post caught my eye. For a lot of reasons! Not to mention that my buddy Lone Star posted too (hope you're well, LS. Congrats on the job! Been meaning to write!).<P>You ask some really good questions on this thread. And, some of the folks who replied offered lots for consideration. If it's possibly of help, I'll offer my own experience (hey LS...watch this....eerily familiar on a few details? ).<P>(WARNING: applied after writing...this is long!) <P>I was 29 years old when Suse began her affair. Was totally caught up in my career, thought I knew just about everythang. Certainly MY way of doing things was The Right Way. Did Suse see things differently? At the time I thought, well, if she did... I guess we'll just have to work that out. I'd prevail. Right!<P>Guess she fixed me, eh? I was really naieve. I was sort of trapped in my own selfish existence complete with my own code of honor. Gee, how could I even conceive of her beginning an affair? "We" don't doooooo that!<P>Why would she ever need to? *smirk smirk* Oh, I did the honorable things allright. I provided. I did all the "right" things that husbands were supposed to do. Funny, she didn't see it that way. I wasn't exactly meeting her needs for closeness, affection, intimacy, and acceptance at a deep level.<P>Looking back,I became increasingly *****y about some of Suse's character traits that were different than mine (like mine were the only way? I laugh. Now.). No way would I have ever thought she'd find someone else. I figured we were married, maybe even stuck with each other. The sanctity of marriage an all that. Woops!<P>Long story cut short, I wonder if I would have caught on if Suse hadn't insisted we go to counselling out of her own sense of honor. She'd quit, actually. Had checked out. But, she figured she owed this to me. That's when she got the unexpected. I actually woke up! Hey, that wasn't the plan! She was so stunned it took her years to finally end her extramarital relationship (hi suse!).<P>During that time, I KNEW something was wrong. Oh, I knew it! One of the blessed benefits of our counselling was that I learned the power of my own instincts. Geez, I've got good antennae. And, I knew something was still not right with Suse.<P>I plowed along. Part of me wished it wasn't true, part of me knew it was but was hoping I could make it better. I knew instinctively I had a lot of history I had to balance off with the "me" that could be a loving, accepting mate. So, I didn't ask. I waited.<BR>I tried to make progress.<P>Three years after counselling began, we had a child. Suse realllly wanted one! I wasn't sure. I wondered whether we'd ever make it and I was afraid of bringing a little one into the world and causing more pain. I was still of the very eerie feeling that I wasn't alone in this relationship with Suse.<P>God, I loved my son when he arrived! It was magical. And, now, there was even a different kind of bond between Suse and I... Mother and Father to OUR son. Almost 12 years later, I still clearly can recall those times, those feelings.<P>Yet, still... things were not right between us. Imagine my new-found instincts screaming at me: "What the hell is going on here?" That's what it was like. So, I asked. Suse couldn't tell me, wouldn't tell me. Whether she was afraid, guilty, yadda yadda, all of the above... she didn't. She couldn't tell me until over 6 years after it began, and hmmmm...a year after she finally weaned herself off?<P>Whew! At least I wan't crazy! I'd finally had confirmed what I suspected for years. So, what was left to do but forgive her and keep moving.<P>Yah, right! Easy for me to say! LOL. Once again, Suse had other ideas. The Guilts. Not to mention a serious dose of depression. Roll the tape forward 7 years and I'd finally run out of gas, out of patience. This time it was me who was emotionally starved for intimacy and contact. Yep, I had my affair.<P>Where am I going with this? Over a span of 15 years, here's what happened:<P>1. I was naieve and never dreamed Suse could have an affair.<P>2. Next, I suspected it but figured I deserved it.<P>3. Later still, I just resigned myself to the fact that this is what we had, it would never be "perfect"<P>4. Then, I got resentful because I felt I was giving so much, had actually BECOME what Suse wanted and somehow it still wasn't enough.<P>5. Next, I compromised my honor for my sanity and tried to have a "contained" affair, all the while hanging in there with Suse.<P>6. Nope, that didn't work. (laughing now). And, after I cratered, Suse was there to pick me up. Hey, as David Byrne sings, "how did I get here?" Magic. It's been magical since.

DuncanMac,<P>Wow, great to hear from you on this thread, and of course I remember you! (I've often wondered where you and Suse were when I was getting clobbered on this board! )<P>Your situation bears many similarities to my H's and mine. In particular #'s 1 - 3. For most of our marriage, my H simply felt he "knew it all," and he was doing things his way regardless. This meant, whenever I mentioned any changes I'd like to see, his answer, "I can't change." End of sentence. So, yes, he definitely resigned himself that things between us was just the way things were and would always be. Eventually, that thinking crept over to me, until the "Crash of '98" when I found out he had cheated on me. That's when I could no longer accept what we had become.<P>Let me tell you all something very telling that happened during our descent into hell. When my H first got the computer, and I first discovered "chat rooms," I told my H that I didn't think it was a good idea to have AOL. I knew I was entering dangerous territory, and I was spending way too much time online. So, I told him I felt it was unsafe and didn't belong in our house. We'd had a close friend whose marriage had been destroyed because of an online relationship she started that went real time. She left her H for the guy. Well, when I brought this up, you know what he said? He said, and I quote, <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"If you're gonna leave, you're gonna leave. It took me too long to get this computer and internet set up and I'm not going to get rid of it just because you can't control it!"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That hit me in the face like a ton of bricks. I couldn't think of anything else he could have said that so glaringly pronounced he didn't care what I did. <P>About 8 months later, I met OM online, and the rest, as they say, is history. Behavior and statements like the above are some of the things he sorely regrets. He, himself, cannot believe he said such things. <P>But, you live and learn. You make mistakes, you fix them. You fall down, you pick yourself back up and try again. That's what life's all about. Yeah, it was a wild ride to this place where we are now, but I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world. That's right, if somehow magically I could erase the past 3 years, take away all the infidelities, and go back to the the way things were, there's absolutely no way I would do that. I hated the way things were and no way would I go back. I love the way things are now, and if the devastation from the infidelities was the only thing that could get us here, then so be it. I can live with that.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Hey there new woman,<P>Thanks for your nice post back. Yes, it's good to be connected here again. I do feel badly I've been out of touch. "Life" for both Suse and I has been very, very busy lately. It's a dang good thing we're getting along so well. <P>Lots of similarities between us, eh? Suse and I almost laugh about it sometimes. We too would not trade the experiences of the last year or so. Somehow, they got us to a better place. And, we're so, so glad of it.<P>More familiar things... the "line in the sand" routine. Yes, both Suse and I used variants of that one! LOL. Oh, that defiant "this is me, love me or leave me" taunt! How stupid we were.<P>But, yanoo...it really came from being afraid. Being afraid to be vulnerable, hurt, rejected. So, each of us ran to others, just as you and your H did. Our timing was a little different...dragged out over many years, but similar. Hey, maybe you were smarter. Or luckier. You got yours done faster.<P>Anyways, I've got to run...have to get the kids to school since Suse's not home. Nice to see you post and I'll check back again tonite.

I'm sorry to butt in here, being a woman and all, but I wanted to share, why I didn't ask questions when it was so obvious that my H was having an affair......You see I didn't confront, even though I had HARD Evidence until my daughter brought it to my attention......<P>I was at a very low point in my life, my Mom was getting sicker and sicker, my career was going down the drain, and I just couldn't deal with the fact that my H would abandon me at this low point in my life.....fear....maybe, but I needed something to hold onto......and the IMAGE of my "perfect" marriage was all that kept me from being a total failure.......My kids often commented on how "all their friends parents were divorced" my parents would tell me "of all the kids (theirs) you're the only one who is still married, at least one of you learned the values we tried to teach" and I couldn't deal with dissapointing them.....not when I was so disappointeng in all the other areas of my life........<BR>And I guess I just couldn't deal with the fact that when I NEEDED him, he wasn't around......You see I've been there when his job got him down, when his dad was dying, and any other crisis through the years, but when I was having my crisises (MOM and the JOB) he ran......<BR>Anyway, I no longer expect him to protect me, to shelter me.......<BR>But that's why I didn't let on I knew.....until the mother bear instinct took over.....and I saw it effect my daughter.....

new woman,<P>How's that? you ask. Well that answer is the typical betrayers cop-out to me. Like my wife was so sure I made a consious decision to ignore all her 'signs'. Maybe your husband just trusted you like I trusted my wife. IMHO what it boils down to is that every single betrayer, every single one made a CONSCIOUS decsion to cheat. Maybe your husband was blind to your needs as he was obviously blind to your actions but it is pure speculation that he made a conscious decision to do so. On the other doesn't every betrayer have countless chances to say "NO, this is wrong" before they take that one irrevocable step and cheat. I just don't think someone whose actions are based on ignorance or miscommunication is as culpable for an affair as someone who goes to all the effort to lie, betray, and deceive. Am I wrong in thinking there is a difference?<BR>

Never Again,<P>Well, glad I didn't surprise you, being a typical betrayer and all. But, seriously, please read my profile. Both my H and I had affairs, almost simultaneously, and unbeknownst to each other. So, my experience and situation being completely different than yours, I doubt that I'm the one you need to have this discussion with. That said, I'd really rather not get into a "who's worse or who's to blame" squabble with you. I just don't have the energy anymore. My H and I "know the deal" and understand where we each went wrong and have made the necessary changes so that it never happens again. And that's all that matters to me.<P>I'm just so very grateful that, both of us being lowly betrayers, neither of us can point the finger at the other, or hold "what you did to me" over the other's head. What a waste of valuable time that would be. I am responsible for my infidelity, my H is responsible for his. However, we both are responsible for the downfall of our marriage, the lack of intimacy and communication, and overall neglect of what should have been most important in our lives. We accept that fully, and the fact that we both made the terrible choice to commit adultery enables us to sort of "wipe the slate clean," as much as that is possible. And now we can move forward, knowing that both of us made mistakes and both of us are remorseful and committed to rebuilding without the hinderence of punishing each other and continuing to point fingers. I'm glad we aren't in the position to do that, because if we were, we probably would do it too, just like many others.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.<p>[This message has been edited by new woman (edited September 21, 1999).]

Well that didn't go well. ...LOL. I had no idea you and your husband were on a level playing field. It makes a hell of a difference. Maybe thats what I need to do to understand this better, go out and level the field. Sorry I butted into this obviously you don't want input froms someone who is not in your particular situation. I am glad you and your husband are 'even' now.

NeverAgain,<P>Input is fine, in fact, I do want input. What I am not up for, though, is getting into any who's worse or blaming squabbles, and it looked like that's where you were headed. So, I just wanted to save us both some time.<P>As far as you going out and getting even, I also hope you understand this is not what my H and I did, nor do I think that is possible. My H and I cheated unbeknownst to each other and almost simultaneously ... almost. I don't think it would be wise or possible to even the score after the fact. That would be vengeful, and that would be calculating. Just remember what you said above.... about making choices to lie and deceive being so much worse than when is was powered by ignorance and miscommunication. Well, wouldn't choosing to have an affair, after the fact, just to get even with your spouse be the mother of all terrible things to do?<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Dunc:<P>Glad you made it back onto the forum. Wasn't sure I recognized you at first, but now that I've read the story, I know it's YOU. LOL<P>Thanks for the job kudos. It's only been a 4 1/2 month haul, but it feels like 20. Anyhoo, there have been some developments on the job front, and something besides the DA's office may be about to happen. I'll fill you in later if the new development actually does occur. I don't want to muck up New Woman's post with a bunch of personal stuff!<P>Good to see you posting again!! <P>-----<P>New Woman:<P>I think you hit the nail RIGHT on the head regarding the difference between your reaction to your H's infidelity and his reaction to yours. As a conflict avoider, he probably pulled a DuncanMac and convinced himself that even if you were cheating, he deserved it, and he didn't deserve to "know for sure." Strange mentality, but it makes sense. Plus, since your affairs were virtually simultaneous, he may not have been in a position where he actually cared enough to find out for sure until he was ready.<P>I dunno. Speculation is just that. I look at it this way, at least he DID finally come around and start caring enough to work through this with you. You're very lucky!<P>Hope all is well with you.<P><BR>------<P>Heartpain:<P>I know EXACTLY how that feels. During the rough times, especially before Petunia cheated, I thought a lot about what it would be like to cheat. I romanticized it a lot. I had several chances to do it. But, like you, I just couldn't bring myself to do it, not so much for the pain it would cause HER, but for the guilt that I would feel. Just couldn't do it.<P>In my mind at the time, however, I didn't even consider the possibility that SHE was feeling tempted too. My self-centeredness took over a bit, and I just figured her world revolved around me. Selfish attitude, I know, but that was my thinking.<P>In a sense, it was a good thing that the affair knocked me out of that. I wish I could have gotten a different wake up call, but I don't think I would have paid attention to it unless it was REALLy traumatic for me. This was about as traumatic as it could get. <P>I'm not saying I'm glad it happened, but I'm glad for where we are now.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P><BR>

New Woman<BR>I've been thinking about your question a lot.<BR>although I am not a man, I hope that my response may be worthwhile.<BR>My H started sleeping with the OW the same weekend I said to a friend "I think my H has a girlfriend."<BR>In other words, I knew from the start. I didn't question him until I saw it affecting him physically. He was a wreck. I guess in my heart I didn't care until I saw that he was suffering.<BR>He was an incredible jerk for months before the affair and to be honest I really didn't care where he was as long as I didn't have to put up with his KING act.<BR>After discovery I didn't even think about what I wanted. I had been considering my options for a while. I just realized that if we split up it wouldn't be because of her it would be because of what was going on in our life. <BR>I spent months saying that I WOULD NOT let him destroy himself and family for a little tramp. If it was because our marriage was lacking FINE. But not because of a little tramp.<BR>We do things for our own reasons. I was giving him space. I didn't question until I saw that it was hurting him.<BR>Sorry for rambling. Just wanted you to see another side.

Hi new woman,<P>Me again. <P>Suse and I are definitely in the same church same pew. We feel sooooo equal! LOL<P>While all of this was unexpected, we're both just amazed at where we've ended up. Not without pain for sure. But, I sense we've taken a similar approach to yours. <P>Neither of us want to waste any more of our precious time together in angst over what we once did to each other. Rather, let's focus everything we have on making our future together even more wonderful. <P>Simply... we each acknowledge we made mistakes, we've forgiven, we've learned. Now, we can even laugh and tease each other about our respective bouts of stupidity. Laughter truly does wonders for the soul.<P>Glad to hear you're well. And, always glad to share a few thoughts with ya, Cowboy Dan.