For those that don't know my story this will seem a little more bizarre than for those that do. Yesterday while grocery shopping with W, her OM comes up and says hello and exchanges a few pleasantries and departs. I am extremely cordial and continue to PRETEND that I don't know he slept with my W. Amazing huh! In a misguided effort to protect W's reputation over 2 1/2 yrs. ago I kept my mouth shut. That was a huge mistake as it allowed the more painful EA to continue all this time. The PA was ONS which she admitted. Anyway after OM leaves the store I feel some tightness in my stomach but basically am proud of the way I handled it. For once I really think W is defogged enough to be embarrassed that I am in this position. Normally her euphoria of seeing the OM would preclude any thoughts or concern for me. But in the two days since this incident she has been very warm and loving to me. We did not discuss one word of the encounter at the store. It's as if it didn't need discussing. I don't know how I got myself, or better yet how my W put me in this position but it is really is absurd. I continue my own NC while W continues happily in weekly pool league with OM. Everbody just floating along in fog heaven; even us lighthouses.

This events follows last weeks verbal explosion when W starting pining for OM and I just unloaded on her. But lately she seems to be coming around but obviously no contact would seemingly speed this process up. By the way I have counselled with SH and he has for lack of a better word endorsed my approach. He really didn't see a clear cut way to force her to end contact. But was adamant that I no longer participate. Makes the whole thing really uncomfortable for all concerned. The gift that keeps on giving.

WOE

WOE:

When I saw your subject, I was going 2 ask how fast and what were you driving?... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

But, alas, the OM isn't a grease spot on the freeway 2day, is he?

Still, I think you handled yourself well. And if SH thinks your on the right track, then he must have reasons for thinking so.

best,
-ol' 2long

2long, welcome back from Italy. Considering a trip next year W and kids. But yesterday was the first time I have seen OM this year. It has put a lot of pressure on W within the group and that is what SH suggested. As you can imagine I need him to go. It isn't that hard to suck it up because I really understand that W threw herself at him. So a ONS was almost a blessing. I think it taught her a valuable lesson that will hopefully serve us well in the future. But I don't think she ever grasped EA. That has absolutely passed the pain of the PA but she doesn't give it a thought and only thinks I can't forgive. Lately though I think she is starting to understand how bad she has hurt me. She mentions the counseling and some other things that make me realize she hasn't been able to completely compartmentalize this. So while the OM isn't a threat and never really was, he still is a cancer in our marriage and just like your RM, he has to go for the healing to begin.

I can say without any hesitation that I am glad I have stood by my W as well as I have. She has almost asked me to have an A to even the score. I suppose she thinks that would allow us to close this chapter. But she's a great girl and definitely worth the work. We'll get there.

I'll be sure to take a cab ride when I'm over there. Sounds exciting.

WOE

WOE:

"She has almost asked me to have an A to even the score."

My W did suggest I have an A, only she didn't call it that. I think this is pretty common guilt-shifting, though.

"I'll be sure to take a cab ride when I'm over there. Sounds exciting."

Make sure you're so tired or drunk that you don't fully connect with the fact that your life is in the driver's hands, first! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

The fact that I'd only had about 2 hours of sleep in 36 hours by that point really helped a lot!

-ol' 2long

I was in Indonesia once and our driver routinely crossed into oncoming traffic to pass. But with family perhaps we better stick to the train. But I certainly won't pass up all that Italian wine no matter how I'm getting around.

I hope your trip did you and your family well. I know for me it is almost like we call a truce during these memorable times. As if nobody wants to ruin what could be a beautiful memory. Your description of Pompei is enticing regarding time standing still. Take good care.

You did well, better than I would have.

If I ever meet OM again I will beat the living sh1t out of him with whatever I can lift and swing.

Sorry. 2x4 me for being non PC.

Bob, I have absolutely no malice. If I'm honest with myself I probably would have done the same thing as him (and I'm M he isn't). It is my firm opinion that W needed something and basically pursued this guy. A week after ONS she invited OM out for pizza. He wouldn't go unless I went. This is before I knew about ONS so I went out for pizza and his young GF joined us later in the evening. So after learning about the ONS I realized this guy wasn't interested in using W but perhaps just wanted to say he had her. But again he is single and while I would have hoped it had turned out differently it's hard and fruitless to hold him responsible. She was going to find somebody so I suppose I am lucky that she found someone who wasn't interested in her and basically made her feel very cheap. She learned a very hard lesson that way but still has a LONG way to go with regard to the damage of EA.

She followed up Sundays supermarket encounter with a call to OM on Monday. So that's my reward for taking the high road. I did call OM once to complain about how many phone calls they exchanged. When I asked how he would feel if his GF called me 30 times a month he said she'd be history if she didn't address the problem. He added "but you have a lot more time invested and a couple of kids". She initiates 90% of the calls. He would only call if he had something routine to tell her. In some ways I have allowed myself to be handcuffed but I'm starting to establish boundaries for myself ie. NC for me. I get beat up around here sometimes for tolerating this but I cannot establish her boundaries. I cannot demand she quit pool. And I have been unable to get her to stop calling him. She is under the misguided idea that time will heal this. But we both know healing won't really begin until NC and then we'll both be in a position to evaluate our M. I am jealous of your situation. I hope to get there and would be happy to have that humbling discussion that you have had. Because of the A's you and I are in a better position to appreciate that discussion. Prior to this, I would have simply been able to brush it off. So yes, I helped put myself here but am now a model citizen and husband. Hope W joins the cause soon though. Congratulations to you and hope you'll hand around awhile and continue encouraging others.

WOE

WOE, I bear malice.

Its a bad attribute of mine, and something God needs to work out of me.

In the same way that I understand FWS always 'ache' for the OP, I will always ache to feel OMs flesh fail beneath my blows.

I pray that feeling will dissipate over time. Its not healthy nor a good example to my kids if they ask me about it.

Thanks for your kind thoughts. I have been blessed and lucky in my situation, but where I can help folks on here , moving forward I will.

Bob:

Then remember these 2uotes:

Lewis B. Smedes - Forgive & Forget: Healing the Hurts We Don't Deserve

"We attach our feelings to the moment when we were hurt, endowing it with immortality. And we let it assault us every time it comes to mind. It travels with us, sleeps with us, hovers over us while we make love, and broods over us while we die. Our hate does not even have the decency to die when those we hate die--for it is a parasite sucking OUR blood, not theirs. There is only one remedy for it. [forgiveness]

"You can forgive someone almost anything. But you cannot tolerate everything...We don't have to tolerate what people do just because we forgive them for doing it. Forgiving heals us personally. To tolerate everything only hurts us all in the long run."

"If we say that monsters [people who do terrible evil] are beyond forgiving, we give them a power they should never have...they are given the power to keep their evil alive in the hearts of those who suffered most. We give them power to condemn their victims to live forever with the hurting memory of their painful pasts. We give the monsters the last word."

"With a little time, and a little more insight, we begin to see both ourselves and our enemies in humbler profiles. We are not really as innocent as we felt when we were first hurt. And we do not usually have a gigantic monster to forgive; we have a weak, needy, and somewhat stupid human being. When you see your enemy and yourself in the weakness and silliness of the humanity you share, you will make the miracle of forgiving a little easier."

"The problem with revenge is that it never gets what it wants; it never evens the score. Fairness never comes. The chain reaction set off by every act of vengeance always takes its unhindered course. It ties both the injured and the injurer to an escalator of pain...Why do family feuds go on and on?...the reason is simple: no two people, no two families, ever weigh pain on the same scale."

Sidney and Suzanne Simon - Forgiveness: How To Make Peace With Your Past And Get On With Your Life"

"All the years you have waited for them to "make it up to you" and all the energy you expended trying to make them change (or make them pay) kept the old wounds from healing and gave pain from the past free rein to shape and even damage your life. And still they may not have changed. Nothing you have done has made them change. Indeed, they may never change. Inner peace is found by changing yourself, not the people who hurt you. And you change yourself for yourself, for the joy, serenity, peace of mind, understanding, compassion, laughter, and bright future that you get."

Having 2uoted all that, I must admit that I still bear a fair chunk of malice 2ward RM. I'm working on it.

-ol' 2long

2long, I really am not eaten up over OM.

Maybe I would be if he threatened me in any way, but he doesn't. He sneaked his way into my FWWs pants when I wasn;t looking, he has nothing to take me on directly with. NOTHING.

I don't want him to change, or be sorry, I just want to beat seven shades of sh1t out of him.

The thought makes me smile that some day, years from now when this A is fully recovered from in both our families I will run across him by accident and STILL beat the sh1t from him. I will want to do that until the day he dies, or I do.

I agree with the tenets you post, but I want him to fear me a little more than he does now (His GF told me he is terrified of me and won't answer the phone if the caller ID is anonymous or local to me).

I am a bad dog. I know.

Bob:

"I am a bad dog. I know."

I concur.

How the heck can you say you're not "eaten up over OM" and PLAN 2 hate him until you die? If he really is the monster you're empowering him 2 be with this hatred, shouldn't you do everything you can 2 "save" his GF and their kid from a life of misery? No, it would be better if she was able 2 recover her relationship and help him grow from his experiences, change his behavior, and never threaten another family again, for the rest of HIS life.

Again, having said that stuff, I would deck RM on sight if I knew what he looked like and ran in2 him. I've got work 2 do, still. But when I realize I'm wasting brainpower hating him, I KNOW how much it eats me up. I suggest you look at your sitch similarly. And what if the OM's GF runs in2 your W in a dark alley some night. Would it be okay for her 2 beat the snot out of your FWW?

turnabout is foreplay (I made that up!)
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
shouldn't you do everything you can 2 "save" his GF and their kid from a life of misery? No, it would be better if she was able 2 recover her relationship and help him grow from his experiences, change his behavior, and never threaten another family again, for the rest of HIS life
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am doing this 2l. The only reason I have not broken him so far is because his GF and son want him AND NC is more likely if he has some shred of attractiveness to his GF remaining and they stay reconciling.

I have hard evidence to lose him all respect in every sphere in which he operates, concerning his counterfeiting and illegal cable box activities, not to mention the affairs he has had. He hold charitable positions which would be shot as a result.

Then all I'd need to do is draw his blood to feel avenged.

Would I really feel better afterwards ? Not if it led to his GF and son being hurt further. She admitted in tears to me that he is a bad sort, but she loves him and hopes she can change him.

So I almost certainly won't do it. I just have warm thoughts about what it would be like so to do.

I'm not saying my feelings are OK. I just won't lie on here to appear 'nice' when I aint.

He isn't a monster, he's a pathetic roue wastrel parasite, but he is the only other man to know my W carnally and AFTER we married.

I want to smash the snot out of him.

so there ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Oh and re: OM GF feeling the same about my FWW ? I would fully understand if she did want to. I wouldn't hold any grudge with her over it if she did. How could I ?

<small>[ October 05, 2004, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

Once again WOE, always the nice guy! I, on the other hand, have to join in with Bob in the beating the crap out of the OP fantasy. I must be forgiving H somewhat because I am not wishing my favorite fantasy on him, which was leaving me for the OW. Darn, I know he would have been miserable! The OW however is another story. I still have the fantasy of pummelling her verbally for about an hour in a place where she couldn't escape. I know she would be no match for me. Oh well, I'll just have to fantasize that one. She still has about 17 months to file a sexual harrassment suit if she were going to be vengeful. So I need to keep a low profile. When the 17 months are off she better hope I'm totally indifferent towards her. CV

WOE,
I do not know your whole story, but I wanted to tell you what happened to me. My WW has an A that is on-going. I think the PA has stopped, but cannot be sure. How can you be sure there is no PA? Are you using the policy of radical honesty?

I told my WW (who has told me she does not want a D) after 2 months of cake eating, living with me and seeing him, she had to go. We have begun the process for seperation (in NY state, you can seperate for a year, than it becomes a D) and she moved out last month.

While being alone has been some of the most painful moments of my life, the overall feeling is a good one. I have some free time to join antoher volleyball league, I have spending more time with my brothers and old friends, I am getting more things done around the house. Of course, I am going broke and will not recover finicially for a few years at best, but I am doing better.

As for the OM, I would have to side with Bob, if I could I would crush the OM. His spineless soul deserves to rot in places that would make dante cower in fear. He is a big guy though and he would most likely squash me like a bug. So, I just curse him.

Anyway, back to you, you are correct in saying you cannot force your W to end the EA, but how long can you take it? I used to flip out when she was talking to him or getting ready to go on a date, or meeting him for ice cream after work. IMHO, you have been doing plan A and she is taking advantage of you.

Do what you can live with, but I could not live with that. Now, my WW is slowly expressing little hints of regret. She told me again today that she does not want a D. But, she cannot have both of us.

Good luck.

This thread seems to have taken on a life of its own while I was sleeping. First a high five to 2long. His post on forgiveness is right on. It's less to do with OP and more to do with spouse.. I have long understood that OM could have been anyone. He couldn't carry my coat.

To Canthishelp; I have been on the other side. I have been the one who didn't do anything but bring the marriage down. So please take a deep breath and think what you would need if you were in trouble. My W has been the lighthouse so it's a lot easier for me to give her all this room to figure things out. When I've had enough I will stand my ground. But for your particular situation please try to do everything you can to get past this. Then you can evaluate where you are and what you want.

Bob, you're doing better than most of us so I won't offer any advice. Again congratulations on righting the ship.

CV, I don't have to offer you advice anymore. You are clearly on the right path. In your case you have more reason to blame the OW and I do understand that. And when that has taken it's course I think you need to let it go. Keep it in perspective. I don't know what her role is but you have to keep it in perspective. In my case I am able to see that my W is the pursuer. As much as I would love to say that she met a predator I know that is not the case. That's why I am able to forgive OM. It really has nothing to do with him. He is quite pathetic.

I hope you are continuing to heal.

Woe:

Thanks for the fives. Even more important, it's not even about the spouse. It's about ourselves. There is truly nothing we can do 2 make our spouses do what we want them 2 do. It's not even always clear that what we think is right for them ac2ally is right.

Like Spacecase said many times while he was on here, we need 2 get 2 the point where we're no longer struggling 2 control the outcomes of our sitches. When we let go of the need for control, things really do tend 2 unfold. I see it in my own sitch when I stop focusing on whether there's contact or not going on. It's when I shut the hell up and truly LISTEN 2 what my W is saying 2 me - HER truths - that I can really be empathetic, particularly about things that my pigheadedness fogs over 2 the point I make little progress.

2night, my W complimented me on some repairs I made 2 the kitchen floor. Better than the floor guy was doing. That meant a lot 2 me.

cth: the kind of A your W is having is more "typical" of those malleable 2 the MB methods. Not that woe's and mine aren't workable with these methods, but they're more subtle and require a little more "english" 2 keep progress progressing. I think it's great that your W is having doubts. A small step, but in the right direction.

Not wanting a confrontation with the OP is admirable, not because they're bigger than you, but because there are so many ways that such meetings can go horribly wrong - like jail time for assault, murder, stuff like that. And if you're in jail, recovery will be a bit more difficult. It's far better if the WS can at some point see the OP for what they really are - "a somewhat stupid human being" as that one forgiveness quote put it. When reduced 2 that level (really revealing the truth, not cutting someone lofty down 2 size), the OP is no longer a threat. And the WS, doing the realization on their own after all, is less likely 2 be a WS again.

-ol' 2long

2long, if my FWW ever arrives at a day when she thinks of OM as the person he truly is, supported by facts and his GF, rather than the one he became to get in FWWs pants, I will cease wanting to bash the smegma outta him.
...maybe.

Right now, I believe she still thinks he's a nice, misunderstood man who was there when FWW needed him, rather than a criminal, wastrel, serial marriagebreaking social parasite. OK, thats MY view, but its supported by the facts, while FWWs view is supported only by flirt talk and pillow talk from him. ( " he explained how his three divorces weren't his fault ", " He told me he's never had an affair before " etc etc. His GF tells a very different tale...).

Serious point actually, I am not sure I can be in a sustained M recovery if FWW retains that view all her life. Early day now though, she needs time a space to reconsider so many things.

Since it's just us boys here I'm going to be a little more candid.

In line with what 2long is saying about letting go of the OP and understanding that it is about us. Our (my M) biggest problem is that W is determined to put me back in the group and my determination to stay away. I really don't care that she sees this guy anymore as long as I don't have to participate (I will explain this more). And W feels very uncomfortable in a group where I am conspicuous by my absence. It's embarrassing for her and of course, my playing the fool to keep the peace no longer works for me. So this will all eventually have to resolve itself and W and I will have to clear the air because quietly we are hurting eachother by our behavior.

OK, here's the candid part and why I don't care if she continues in his company. In the beginning of course I wanted to beat the shi$ out of this guy. Normal male reaction. But having stepped back at the beginning it gave me a chance to get to know him and to learn more about him through W and mutual aquaintences. Out of W's mouth; spiritual connection, cutie petootee, lover, people come into your life for a reason and unusual looking. The facts are this guy has 2 illigitimate children the same age with 2 different woman. He smokes and sells pot. Lives in a trailer. Unusual looking is a euphemism for ugly. Hangs sheetrock under the table and isn't that big in the front <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . That part I got from his GF and disciphering some fog talk from W.

I have since learned that his 11 yr.old son wear diapers to bed and his 11 yr.old daughter has a so-called sex diary. He doesn't have custody of these two beautiful kids but is a good father none the less. He is a pathetic person who brags of being with 10 M woman <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> , but it's hard for me to get excited about him. He can't finish a sentence and I'm sure W is extremely embarrassed that he was the one to get her to break her vows. But BobP, he didn't get in her pants as you say, he got in her heart.

The message I'm trying to convey is that after D-Day and perhaps the end of the A (I'm still kinda figuring out if that came yet or not) you are filled with a euphoria for your WW and realize how close you came to losing them. You cannot afford to forget that feeling. You need to be in Plan A for the rest of your life and not let things slip back. So if you are spending your energy on other man you are taking energy away from your M. Energy that is desperately needed to continue to the path to recovery.

2long, I liked your comment about our situations requiring a little more english. Since W met OM at pool league I not only enjoyed the pun but understood the message. You are dead on and no one can get the true picture of anyone else's M over the internet. But every case is very different and as my W has told me on several occassions, I need to let HER get through this. And conversely she needs to let ME heal. That is with NC. Thanks all.

WOE

JUst needed to jump in and out with ....

BOB and CV love it !

If I do not get to beat the B!TCH I know I will one day cause total destuction to her life ...

I had to take the revenge is sweet road ,, I sit and wait gather and collect ...

THEN BOOM! My day will come .

WOW maybe I have issues , ya think and I am in recovery and they have N/C for 16 months !

OK I got to stop talking about OW and beating her I am becoming to HAPPY ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

This is the 1st time I feel like I'm breaking into the men's locker room, but what the heck. I've lost all my inhibitions since the A and joining MB.

WOE, concerning our personal OW, I didn't want to make her into a predator just to make myself feel better. However, as the months have gone by, as H has continued to defog, and as more info has emerged, this woman was a REAL BI***! It is a very strange experience to know someone for 4 yrs., be the naive person I was as far as mostly seeing the good in people, and realizing this person could have so deliberately gone after my H. When I saw expartner a few weeks ago he told me he doesn't have a doubt that she was also going after his job. I just can't understand the workings of that kind of mind. Thus the desire to stil pummell her for the damage she caused to so many people.

Now to you, Bob, and others who wonder if their S will ever see clearly what kind of person the OP is. Those who have followed my story from the beginning know just how fogged out my H was. Momto3Boys' H and my H were in a very similar place and both posted on here for a while. The difference is that my H somehow managed to cut it off with the witch and her H didn't. My H had OW on such a pedestal. Even though he felt remorse from the beginning he couldn't handle me talking about her. He couldn't accept her manipulation. He went through an awful withdrawal. Woke up with panic attacks every night for a few months. I could go on and on.

Just this morning he told me that he now is seeing some of the things I told him months ago. That OW was a poison in his life. That she used her sexuality to hook him at such a vulnerable time. He now understands that the A was actually something evil in his life. He understands what his counselor told him, which was when OW told him he needs to do what makes him happy it was really about her selfishness. When I told him that my shrink months ago said OW never gave him the space to figure things out, he now sees that and said she was always in his face talking to him at work, calling him, e-mailing him, and IMing him. Just the other day he remembered one of her firends saying to him, "You don't know everything there is to know about OW." At the time it didn't mean anything to him, now he thinks she was warning him. He sees the wedge she put up between H and me and H and his partner and friend. OK, I guess that is enough examples for now. Just wanted to give you men some hope that the fantasy can eventually break apart.

H used an analogy to try and explain it to me this morning. This came from me asking him why until recently he has had held back emotionally from me and had difficulty expressing feelings of love. He said it's been like climbing over a barbed wire fence. Lately he has been at the place where he is getting over the fence, but there are still barbs stuck in him. Slowly he has been extracting those barbs. I asked him if the barbs are getting over his feelings for her. He said no, the barbs are more about all the damage done from the A and the disbelief that he actually had an A.

Hopefully we will recover from this A. If we do I have told H that I hope one day he can come to MB and give back by helping both the BS and WS like FWSs have helped me here. I told him that if it weren't for MB we wouldn't even be together now. I truly believe that. So good luck to us all. CV