Bob:

"And yet his GF shamed me today when I think about it. She told me she doesn't hate my FWW, just thought she's a silly tart who should've known better at forty years old.

She's a better person than me. I want to pick his teeth from my heels."

Something 2 think about.

Bob, I know you're a better person than this. Make us all proud.

-ol' 2long

2long I often ask myself what would've make my folks proud.My Mom would've been proudest if I walked away. Caused least trouble. That was her way.

My Dad would've looked to my motives not my actions. He'd know it was bravest/hardest for me to walk away than to bash OM. But he'd be proud whatever I decided as long as I took considered action.

ps I still want to bash OM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ October 08, 2004, 03:09 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

WOE, I wasn't thinking that you should have the desire to beat the crap out of the OM. I just questioned why your W should even think it's OK to bring him into your home. I'm glad that you do see that your absence is making things difficult for her.

I do apologize if I am being too judgmental with you. As always I hope you know it's because I care. Thinking about this last night I realize that our situations are very different, but both difficult in there own way. Your W had a ONS, but has continued being in the OM's presence for 2 1/2 yrs. That's tough! My H had a 9 month EA, and a 6-8 month PA, but once he ended contact, it was over. Still, as you know, the sexual betrayal is REALLY tough for me. Maybe if H had a ONS I wouldn't be so hard-line.

Yes, it does give me some comfort to know OW actively pursued him. As H told me the other day, "What kind of a person, when you ask them to stop pursuing you, keeps doing it anyway?" Yet, I still struggle very much with the fact that H did have a choice before the A got out of hand. As I told Steve I have trouble with the "choice point". I can pin that down to the day she wanted to go to the park after work and hand deliver him the letter she wrote to him. That day H made the wrong choice. When I talked to Steve about this he told me it's like the person who says they will be fine having 4 drinks, but after that it will be too many. He said then the person has 4 drinks and his judgment is already impaired so he keeps on drinking. Intellectually I get this. My heart doesn't get it. Maybe if my dad hadn't have been dying during the whole A this wouldn't be so hard. Maybe if I didn't read that letter where she is gushing over their sex when my dad was actually dying in the hospital. Truthfully I don't dwell on these things. But times like now they come back to slap me in the face.

I read in my journal something I wrote last summer/03, during H's A. I wrote that I would be so susceptible to having an A because H was being such a jerk, and I was so sexually deprived. But I wrote I could never do that to him. And here he was doing that exact thing to me. I really do struggle with the concept of how can my H truly love me, and yet have been capable of being such a selfish, insensitive jerk during one of the worst years of my life.

Sorry WOE, I guess this is another down day. Lucky you got to be the recipient of my down mood. I'll stop writing now! CV

CV:

"I really do struggle with the concept of how can my H truly love me, and yet have been capable of being such a selfish, insensitive jerk during one of the worst years of my life."

I can relate. I've had a lot of time 2 contemplate this very problem in the past 33 months. Most of the first 2 years, when I wasn't able 2 put the A out of my mind at least for a while (believe it or not, I was able 2 for a few months the first year), I was angry a lot of the time. Worse was that I didn't even have my W on "my side" after D-day, at least not in the "lets work on our M using MB or something" sense. I still don't.

But what's different now from before is that I'm not clingy in the least. When I was still clingy - unable 2 imagine my life without my W - I'd be really pumped up when things were going well, then totally devastated when they weren't. Now? Things are truly starting 2 2rn around. I can even tell you what time of day it was when the synapse fired while we were in Italy. It's been completely different since then. I don't want 2 minimize the importance of it either, but I won't be the clingy, pitiful 2long that came here 2 and a half years ago, either. We've come a long way recently. Whether it's permanent or not, I can't say. I won't even speculate. I know what I believe is right and I'm going 2 do that. I'm going 2 let my W decide what she wants 2 do.

I still get anxious for this whole experience 2 end, but I realize it has 2 run its course, because there are at least the 2 of us and our different rates of growth involved.

Yeah, her A was selfish, cruel, thoughtless and destructive. I take no small consolation in the knowledge that it was thoughtless. My W is a smart woman. It's amazing that even smart, otherwise caring people can have As. But they can.

-ol' 2long

CV, I don't take offense and I know that you are trying to help because you care. A couple of things; I'm glad you clarified that you understand I cannot control my W. Nor can I explain why she thinks it's OK for OM to be in our home. Other than to say she has no point of reference. She really can't understand because she hasn't been on the other side of this. She just thinks I am unforgiving person in some regards. So that's why my handling of the supermarket situation was so positive for US. She has to see that I'm not preoccupied with OM only with US. This was much better than if I had walked to another isle leaving her and OM to yuk it up while I pout. I didn't pout, I was the strongest person there.

Our situations are all very different. If W had had a longer PA she would have probably understood that he had to go. Moreso because I believe my reaction would have been much stronger. If I could have convinced myself that OM was the pursuer I could have more reason to hate him. But many times I think that he had my M in the palm of his hand and for whatever reason he didn't make things worse. He told W early on that "people get shot over this". She really wanted to have a secret lover ("at that particular time" - Alantis Morrisette). I can't ignore these facts and that's why I don't hate the guy or my former best friend.

With regard to the sexual betrayal you recently pushed H to tell you what they hadn't done. I can soooo relate to this. But in my case there are obviously so many things they hadn't done. I haven't pressed W for details but assembling the facts I get the idea it was missionary position in back of family truck (she still denies this point vehemently) and very quick and awkward. So I focus on the EA because that really defines the situation. I try to support you but not humor you in this area. YOu are dealing with a lot more in this area and you need lots of time and support from H to get past this part of the betrayal. Please understand I can absolutely empathise with your pain. But if you look at what 2long posted he and I are in very similar positions. EA's that are fading and healing that is beginning and WS's that are less than truly remorseful. But the difference in our situations and yours is the big time difference. We are both approaching 3 yrs from D-day.

As for the decision time. I know very well my W made her leap to the next level while I was on business trip. I was very concerned to go away. I actually called her while she was just "finishing up" with OM. I don't find this out until weeks later and she doesn't admit it but cell phones put things in perspecitive. Anyway she calls me the next day at my hotel and is very down. I knew something had happened but I didn' know what. In typical WOE fashion I told her I'm going to rent a convertable for her birthday and we'll drive to the shore etc. She said "no, please don't". Tremendous guilt and I know it's still there but I can't seem to break through to her and tell her I'm her friend and have no motivation to further hurt her. But being able to place the exact date and time of her ONS will stick with me for a while.

In closing you never have to hesitate in your words to me. I try to learn from it and apply it for good. Just like 2long is trying to help BobP. Don't you think me and 2long would love to see OM die in fiery crash; a very slow death I might add. But we still try to show Bob that it isn't healthy. It's natural and you need to feel it but you can't act on it. Every BS feels this way and some of them unfortunately make it onto television right before they're carted off to prison for acting on it.

2long, your thoughts echo mine. It has taken a long time to get back on my feet but I do feel that I am now driving MY train, if not the M train. And obviously there should be two people steering the M and one person guiding the individuals in the M. So you are right we need to let go and let our S's decide what they want. Just put your best foot forward. My W is fond of saying "you didn't know what you had". Meaning that she is somehow less than she was. This saddens me as I know she is remorseful and I do try to let her know I appreciate what I HAVE more than I ever did before. But I am quick to add "you don't know what you HAVE". So I really do believe things are always moving but you don't necessarily see the movement in real time. Kind of like glaciers I guess. Hope you remain as optimistic as I do. Have a great weekend everybody.

WOE

WOE posted....

I'm glad you clarified that you understand I cannot control my W. Nor can I explain why she thinks it's OK for OM to be in our home. Other than to say she has no point of reference. She really can't understand because she hasn't been on the other side of this.

Woe

I don't know specifically what your weakness with gambling was; ie, casinos, basement poker games, office pools, etc., BUT, I know your gambling was a major issue with your W in the past. I also know you carry a lot of remorse and responsibility for the gambling, and apply it daily in your interaction with your wife.

Here's my point. How would your wife feel TODAY if you returned to those "places", on a regular basis, where the gambling took place? Even if you weren't gambling?

Would she be concerned? Nervous? If she indicated she would rather you not do that, and you continued to do so, would she become upset?

That, my friend, is the "other side", and she HAS been there.

Take another bite of the elephant!

SD

<small>[ October 08, 2004, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: shattered dreams ]</small>

2long, thanks for your comments. It is very amazing how smart people can have As. I guess As don't have anything to do with IQ. I did struggle with what it would be like to be alone, but I never was clingy. I think oW was clingy, which somehow made H feel loved, but eventually would have driven him nuts.

WOE, it's just one those days. I really do believe that H is remorseful. He continues to grow and gains insight. The 2 things I felt a lack of, the ILYs and Kissing, are happening. So what's my problem? It's just a very odd thing. I find I can go for days now not having the urge to cry, for example. The A is always on my mind, but the intense grief isn't there daily. Then it just hits me, like today. I'm not feeling the intense grief, but the crying is back.

Unfortunately the sex in H's case was not awkward. It was an expression of in-love feelings, as perverted as that was at the time. It's not only the sex, it's the whole thing. I'm a feeling person, but also very logical. H's A just doesn't compute with me. Steve told me some people can have all the puzzle pieces but a few, and that will be enough for them to get the picture. For me, if a few are missing, the whole picture is still blurry. Thus my need for details. I guess there's something else I'm looking for to explain why H did this, which maybe I'll never get. I still wonder if ultimately I can live with that.

WOE, listen to SD. What he said is very true. CV

woe:

Before I read others' replies, I wanted 2 comment on:

"Don't you think me and 2long would love to see OM die in fiery crash; a very slow death I might add."

2uite ac2ally, I've only wanted a small asteroid, say on the order of a few hundred meters in diameter, 2 smack in2 RM's house while he's home someday. Not so big or so fast that it causes a global extinction event (GEE) like the one that 86'ed the dinosaurs, but big enough that it leaves a smoking hole in the ground on the order of a mile or so in diameter, that me and the fam can buy tickets 2 go stand on the rim and look down, pondering the ruin of RM's s2pidity...

...that'd be a pretty 2uick death, don't you think?

"AM I NOT MERCIFUL!!!!????" - "Gladiator"

-ol' 2long

2l, I will smile when OM dies, its true, but I won;t wish it upon him. I can't enjoy silly hopes that bereave good , innocent people like his GF and their son.

If an act of God/Karma/sheet bad luck saw him go, I'd prosper, but I won't wish it.

I just wish to see the fear in his eyes before I kick his teeth down his throat. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

SD, you're right that W does have a point of reference. I made a big mess with gambling on sporting events. This went on for years and there were two seperate d-days. W will still occassionally bring it up in the heat of the battle. She talks about shattered trust and not the money. Somewhere along the line I told her I have forgiven myself even if you never forgive me. I believe that got her attention and forced her to re-evaluate things. That is 12 yrs in the past. Yes it would hurt her if I scared her again in this way.

But even closer to the point, I have a single friend who co-coaches my daughter. She is very attractive and very interested in me. The few times I have gone places with her in very appropriate settings W subtely voiced concern. I knew if I wanted her to let go of OM I had to fly very, very straight. I am extremely careful now, not only to avoid A but to make W uncomfortable. I cannot justify her position. But I do know she is hurting. As 2long said my sitch requires a bit more english. But you are right I have got to keep tearing the elephant down. I did write the letter but just didn't give it to her yet. The theme of the letter is that she needs to stop suggesting I attend events with OM because it simply sets her up for dissappointment when I decline and leads to arguments. It does not ask her to end contact. But I did say "what is in the rearview mirror for her is a hood ornament for me", and "that time heals nothing, its what you do with the time that counts". While I borrowed the latter I think both are effective without being hurtful. We'll see what happens. But I can honestly say things continue to move in the right direction. She asked how I liked her outfit and I said it was just OK but would rather see her in something more sexy for our evening out. She said OK, I'm going shopping. She returned with some Victoria's Secret stuff and I'll know what else when the charge bills come in. But it was a positive experience and I even thanked her for going to Victoria's for our date. So I guess there is plenty of good to go along with the bad and that makes this all palatable. Thanks for caring.

WOE, hope you don't mind me butting in - it's sort of on the same subject your thread took off into. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Two stories:

A couple of weeks ago I was at our local shops and OM's w walked out of a shop right in front of me as I was walking along the road. She didn't see me but I was close enough to tap her on the shoulder if I wanted to. What I did do was turn and walk hurriedly the other way and then scurry into another shop sweating and shaking. I felt absolutely ghastly that someone (me) who has been able to hold their head up all their life was reduced to cowering in a shop.

Does that make you guys feel any better? It makes me feel terrible. For 47 years (before the A) I have never given another person a reason to even dislike me, let alone hate me.

I also see you wish a horrible life on the OP. I've talked to you guys a lot, heck, 2long, I laugh at all your jokes. Is that what you wish for me?

Second story:

H asked out of the blue the other night "Why don't I ever see his car." I said "whose car?" then I realised what he meant. He said with an evil cackle "maybe he takes the bus now." Then H said he would wait forever to smash OM's nose all over his face. He doesn't care if he's an old, old man when it happens.

Not quite sure what my point is here - just that forgiveness is complicated I guess.

Jen

<small>[ October 08, 2004, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: KiwiJ ]</small>

SD, if you're still lurking, what did you think of my revenge fantasy? Driving home from the clinic I work at I thought of it and it brought a smile to my face. You can fly in with your W and she and H can hang out while you and I intimidate and instill fear in the wimpy OW. What did our president say about this war, we'll create "shock and awe". Oh, there's nothing like a good revenge fantasy when I'm feeling down to lift my spirits. The return of the Black Mamba, your friend, CV.

KiwiJ Hugs to you. For the most part I think this is good natured fun here but your point is very, very well taken. There was a thread that went in a similar direction recently called "mirror, mirror". It was a lot of BS's high fiving but there was one FWW who said she cannot look at herself in the mirror. That is very sobering. This doesn't have to be a lifetime sentence but your H's comments are not helpful. I would like this to die as much as my W and I think I showed strength of character by not making a scene in the market. I truly want to show W that all I want is her to love me and to let me love her. Very sorry if we have hurt your feelings in anyway. On behalf of the rest of the gang on this thread please accept our heartfelt apologies. Perhaps if you could open up to your H it would be helpful. Meanting, if you could let him know he hurts you with a remark like that. But as far as running from the OW I guess that's going to take a lot more healing. But I think it could occur. As my W's OM walked away the other day I said "see ya pal". Certainly I'm not his pal and he doesn't even know I've forgiven him. But the forgiveness part really only benefits me anyway, right? Have a great weekend and don't ever hesitate to jump in and point out something that is hurtful. If you look at the time frames of the posters you can see that forgiveness does come gradually but it does come.

WOE, thank you for your very gracious reply.

H and I are recovered. We've had a "funny" patch just recently, d-day anniversay coming up on October 21 and our DD's relationship problems with her b/f (now ex b/f) brought a bit to the surface again.

I wasn't at all hurt by what he said about beating the crap out of the OM. It actually started us talking about A stuff again which has been a bit of a taboo subject lately.

Bringing it up again just brought us even closer together. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Do you know I wanted to tap OM's w on the shoulder and talk to her, apologise to her and tell her that her H loved her (and I'm sure loves her) very much but I wasn't sure if there'd be a scene. I didn't want to have the crap beaten out of me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Jen

KiwiJ:

"I also see you wish a horrible life on the OP. I've talked to you guys a lot, heck, 2long, I laugh at all your jokes. Is that what you wish for me?"

Yeah, I wish you would laugh at all my jokes! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Seriously, your point is well taken. I think my "punishment" method for RM is as outrageous as it is because I know it's nothing I could ever carry out.

In reality, I wish him well, but before I can feel good about that wish I need him 2 pull his head out of his nether regions, which he hasn't done and probably never will do. He divorced his W, who my W still thinks is crazy - takes no responsibility for helping the Meat family break up. After the PA ended and RM got thrown out of his house, he started dating, but said 2 my W that he felt like he was cheating on HER. He's dating again now, and 2 months ago my W said that his new GF is "okay" with him and my W being "friends." Needless 2 say, I told herr I didn't agree.

So, RM has a lot 2 learn before he could ever be anybody I could respect. I hate what he's done, not necessarily him. But since I don't even know him or know what he looks like, I have no desire 2 ever get 2 know him - for the next 4 or 5 trillion years or so... ...even if he IS the spitting image of Jesus on the Cross!

-ol' 2long

Kiwi, sorry if I contributed to your hurt feelings. I've apologized to Comfortably Numb before because I know I can be pretty brutal when describing my feelings at times for my FWS and the OW. What I've said to CN is this, and it applies to you. I appreciate everything that the FWSs on MB do for us BSs and people who are trying not be a WS anymore. You all are very couragious to me. I talk about you all often to H and hope one day he can also give back on MB. I have gotten extreme help from all of you that have responded to my posts. I also told CN that when I vent it is about my very own personal FWS and OW.

The reality is that at this point in time I can't stand OW. I'm sure that you could give me all sorts of insight about what it's like being an OW. The thing is at this point in time I don't give a SH**. I care about you, but I don't care about her. All I do know is that her pursuing of my H, at a very difficult time in our lives, caused more pain than I have ever known. All I know is that before she entered our lives H and I always managed to come through crises and be close again. All I know is that she didn't give a second thought to shattering my boys' lives. Boys that she knew quite well. All I know is that she was screwing H while my dad was dying, and had the nerve to push his casket at his funeral.

I have to forgive H if we will ever recover. I don't have to forgive OW. My feelings aren't eating away at me. One day maybe God will let me know it's time to forgive. I ain't there yet.

Again, I truly am sorry for any pain caused to you by me. CV

CV

Methinks your OW already got a lifelong taste of the venom of the Black Mamba, on her last day of work at the FP.

Methinks with the 'history' of our WS's, and my personal EN's (one in particular) not being fully met, and your voracious appetite for the same, AND, what we've both been through, it may bode well for you and I to keep 2 state lines between us!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, I wish you would laugh at all my jokes! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, well I just did again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

OK, I'm over my "sensitive, wounded feelings" stuff now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I really DO get the revenge fantasies. I know if it was the other way round I'd have plenty myself.

H really does mean he'd punch OM in the nose though - and he's never lifted a finger to a living soul. He even told OM's w as much when he rang her.

Jen

Speaking of revenge fantasy... One that I could have made a reality, and pondered it often shortly after D-day.

I work at an arena. We hire our peer or t-shirt security guards in-house, meaning they work for ME. (the guys you see at football games with shirts saying "event staff") Some of them are, shall we say, from the other side of the tracks. They are willing to please, and can always used a few extra bucks.

Now I'm certain my career would have survived me "tipping" a few of these burly, surly types about $20 each, and the OM in my world would probably not have a bone in his body that wouldn't have been broken at least in two places.

Yeah, I thought that several times. I'm over that now, but God help him if I see him crossing the street if I'm ever driving a rental... hahaha!!!!

<small>[ October 08, 2004, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: shattered dreams ]</small>

SD, I'm shocked! I thought you were going to say with our WS's history THEY wouldn't be safe together. But your point is well taken. I guess I'll have to find some other 6'4", 235lb. glaring man to be a part of my revenge fantasy. Shoot, I don't know any. All the men I know are a tad on the shrimpy side. OK, "Never Mind!"

Unfortunately, I wasn't half the Black Mamba I could have been at the FH with OW. Although that was one of my more inspired moments. Remember I also had the extremely fogged out H trying to protect poor little OW from the mean, aggressive W. Darn, now that fantasy is coming back. I better go! CV