Hi all,

No I haven't met anyone else and I'm not having an affair, just to get that clear.

I have a question that I just cannot answer myself and it just doesn't go away.

I've been thinking the following:

During my husbands affair he was the best lier I have ever seen.
He could give me answers "immediately" without even having to think.

He found excuses for many things that made so much sence, no matter what the situation was.

When we went out with OW & OWH he put on the best "Poker face" I have ever seen. (we became friends with OW & OWH right when the affair started)

My husband was able to "manipulate" me in many areas. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
For example: My husband came home from work and told me that he had met OW and OWH. They asked if we wanted to go out with them that evening. My husband told me to phone them and tell them at what time. He appeared very "uninvolved" and he told me that it was up to me whether we'd go or not.

Just the fact that he was able to "hold back" all emotions and still "get what he really wanted" scares me at times.

Is this a part of his character??? Or does this happen because an affair what going on????

It also shocks me when I think about the times we had sex and he wasn't able to "ejaculate" (sorry for being so direct)
I would comment this and his immediate answer was: Well, we don't have that much sex anymore so therefore my body doesn't "produce" that much anymore. (he didn't have to think a minute about this) I know this is "rubbish" but at that time I didn't think about what he was saying and I now know he was having sex with OW.

I'd be happy to hear from other WS and what your thoughts are about this.

Does this become a part of a WS personality and is this possible to do because a affair is going on or is this the "True character" of a person being able to "hide" so much and lie so perfectly?


It worries me when I think that maybe I have "loved" someone that I truely don't even and never have known.
I always believed that my husband was a very "honest" man and when I think about this, I'm not even sure if this wasn't always a part of him that I just never knew.


I hope I am making sence............

bb

<small>[ October 05, 2004, 05:46 AM: Message edited by: blondblossom ]</small>

BB -

I wonder the very same thing about my ex fiance and I too would love to hear from some WS's on this.

Weaver

Blondblossom,

I understand why you’re concerned about this and I think if I were in your shoes I would be concerned about the same things. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> The following is just my opinion and viewpoint from a FWS:

I believe A’s can happen to anyone and that even good, Christian people with a good character, strong conscience and high values and morals can struggle and get caught up in an A if not cautious and careful. I don’t think all people who get involved in A’s is necessarily ‘bad’ people with inherit bad or weak characters etc. They are people who drift off from the ‘right and narrow’ path for a while. I however think all people who stray have certain weaknesses and vulnerabilities they wasn’t necessarily consciously aware off. Further I believe all people have ‘good’ and ‘bad’ sides - we all are sinners who struggle between ‘flesh’ and ‘spirit’ in some times in our lives - and therefore it depends on each individual which side (bad or good – flesh or spirit) he/she will allow to develop and dominate. I think it all goes hand in hand with our spiritual growth; maturity and personal walk with God. I think the inherit ‘good’ people who get caught up in A’s repress their conscience and rationalize & justify their actions in their own minds (FOG) in order to allow themselves to continue with the A and their selfish behavior.

Blessings,
Suzet

<small>[ October 05, 2004, 06:58 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

BlondBlossom,

I've struggled with this same thing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Wondering who my STBX really is, or was. Was I the one in the FOG? They say Love is blind.

My STBX misled me or deceived me for many years ... this is according to her own words. I thought things were different between us, she said they were good (many many many times) up until DDay.

Is she, as Suzet says, "an inherently good person" who has made bad choices. Or is she an "inherently bad person" who is prone to repeat this behaivor over and over because she is lacking conscience or a moral compass.

I have queried this to her as recently as this week. She likes to smirk at me and tell me that I don't know anything about her. 15-years of marriage and 7-years dating, I know nothing.

I told her that I choose to believe she is a better person than this. I don't want to believe that she is the inherently bad person prone to the type of behaivor she has exhibited. (Even though this is not the first time) I choose to believe that she can once again be the kind of person I used to know.

Suzet says; </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think the inherit ‘good’ people who get caught up in A’s repress their conscience and rationalize & justify their actions in their own minds (FOG) in order to allow themselves to continue with the A and their selfish behavior. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But BlondBlossum..... I don't know. Was I fooled, was I blind, .... it is almost to painful to contemplate. But I have, ..... over and over again.


I hope there are some good perspectives to give me better insight. I'm not looking for encouragement ... just the truth.

<small>[ October 05, 2004, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: Tom Joad ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by blondblossom:
<strong>

Does this become a part of a WS personality and is this possible to do because a affair is going on or is this the "True character" of a person being able to "hide" so much and lie so perfectly?


It worries me when I think that maybe I have "loved" someone that I truely don't even and never have known.
I always believed that my husband was a very "honest" man and when I think about this, I'm not even sure if this wasn't always a part of him that I just never knew.


I hope I am making sence............

bb </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You make perfectly good sense, but from my experience it's not a cut and dry, one-size fits all. In my experience as a WS I can tell you that there's no limit to how *creative a WS can be. Times, dates, excuses, manipulation etc..;no low is too low, no trust too sacred to betray to satisfy you need for OP. A's bring out the worst in you, is this a character flaw or the WS true self. I have a hard time accepting the concept of a true-self. Is a hero truly a HERO or just someone who reacted heroicly in the face of fear or adversity? I acted like a scumbag, but I was not a scumbag and in different situations I behaved admirably, of course to OW I was now a scumbag who dumped her.

Sorry I can't give more insight, this is just my opinion...I'm sure others might give different takes on the sitch.

Thanks to all of you for your replys.

I'm hoping for more. Pleasssssssssssssssseeeeeeeeee, WS's give me some more insight about this.

hugs
bb

Thanks to all of you for your replys.

I'm hoping for more. Pleasssssssssssssssseeeeeeeeee, WS's give me some more insight about this.

hugs
bb

I have a WH who has always prided himself on his honesty and integrity and he managed to lie and mislead me for four years. Even when I first got a whiff of his A it took me 10 months to find actual proof. He lied and lied and managed to convince me that I was a neurotic idiot. I still feel like an idiot when I look back and realise how well he lied.

I don't think the WS's realise how much damage their lies do. I think they cause almost as much damage as the A itself. I will never fully trust my H again no matter what happens.

bb.....

First time I have ever seen YOU post!

I can see sooo many similarities in our spouses. Especially in the sex department. That happened many times while we were having sex (which to tell the truth hasn't been all that much during the past 3 years while WH has been having his A).

And to answer your questions with my thoughts, I choose to think that MOST WS's are good people in a bad situation, and have chosen behaviors to suit the situation.

I think they DO become very creative with their lies and deception. It's kind of like they turn their mind OVER to it!

I personally, have never been a suspicious, sneaky person. But this situation has caused me to become one. I can figure out all kinds of way to get information on my WH's doings.

This behavior is so TOTALLY foreign to me, that it was very difficult for me turn my brain over to think in this manner. NOW it has become EASY for me!

I have never before opened other peoples' mail, looked in their wallet, or gotten into anyone's private things. I wouldn't even THINK about it. I used to wonder how people could think of these kinds of things to put in movies, book, etc. Where did they come up with their Private Eye stuff?

Well, let me tell ya, ideas and thoughts and plans come very quickly to me now!

But this is my behavior GIVEN my situation! I am totally NOT a suspicious, PI kind of person. And I think it's going to be HARD for me to QUIT thinking this way now --- unless my situation changes.

I think that when Their situation changes to where their BAD behavior is no longer acceptable to THEMSELVES, they turn their mind over to that peaceful, truthful, GOOD person that they really are.

I think we all have these potentials within us. We choose which side we live by.

Hugs to you

K

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by enid:
<strong> I will never fully trust my H again no matter what happens. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Enid,
I hope you never told your S this. Why would your WS want to recover a M that when you already have made up your mind you will never trust them again? I can understand if you said it will take *Considerable Time to trust. I do not want to be given *Blind Trust, and obviously due to my W's A I've learned *Blind Trust is dangerous for anyone. I hope you can follow my point, your comment about never trusting your FORMER WS seems to imply that you don't anticipate ever making a full recovery, and as far as I'm concerned without the prospect of full recovery what's the incentive? Looking over your shoulder and perpetual insecurity?

I have never told my WH that I will never trust him again. Maybe you are right and I will eventually learn to trust him again. Right now that's the way I feel - "that I will never trust him ever again". But as they say, time heals many things and maybe I just need to get there in my healing process. . .I am certainly not even close.

HI Blondblossom,
It's nice to see you here. I haven't been around here in a long time, but I remember you as one of the first people who posted to me when I arrived here over two years ago in search of resurrecting my then-divorced marriage. (does that make sense?) I'm sure you maybe heard that my exH and I remarried about 9 months ago, and all is well. Very well, in fact. I was the WS.

I don't think the lying is part of the person's 'true' character, per se. Before the affair I'd never lied in my life. I rarely think of those awful affair days now, but when something does haunt me and I'm reminded of it I'm sickened at the creativity of my lies and excuses. I'm nauseated at the things I did to be with the OM.

My husband hasn't really ever asked me much about that whole time. Unlike many of us, he is the type of person who doesn't analyze things to the 'nth' degree. That makes this easier, I'm sure. On the other hand, it did take him YEARS and a divorce to get him to accept the idea of loving me again. So we all deal with things differently.

To me you are in love with your husband, flaws and all. Think of in this way, and maybe it will help. He loves you, he's with you. He is flawed, and he's a weak person in many ways. I think all of us who succomb to an affair are weak and needy.
Hopefully, he's learned from it. I know I have. I feel like a completely different person than I was six years ago when it all began. (the A) I still can't believe I was ever that self-centered and destructive to so many. Try to view him as the total person he is, and not the person who was once caught up in a horrible mistake. I learned that nothing is worth losing the person you love, and I'm sure your husband learned that too. (learned much more, too)

Take care,
HP

Thanks again, you guys! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

It helps so much to see this whole thing from other points of view.

Sometimes, I feel so alone when I feel these kinda things and I find you can only really discuss this with people that have "experienced" this themselves.

Otherwise "unexperienced" seem to alwas say: Once a cheater/lyer always a cheater/lyer.

This is definately not true. I do see that my husband made a terrible choice in his life and yet it still does scare me to "trust" him that this was not the "real" him.


thanks

bb

Blondblossom,
I know what you mean. People who haven't been through this issue just don't get it. THey'll say the good 'ol "Once a cheater, always a cheater" without batting an eye. Life must be so easy for those who have it all wrapped into a cliche.

I think you need to perhaps see this as the 'real' husband. He is flawed, like all of us. I'm sure he learned from it, and won't repeat it. But it was the 'real' him, just like it was the 'real' me who cheated. I'll never repeat it, but it was the 'real' me who stooped that low. Like one of my best gal pals says, "If any human being is capable of doing it, I too am capable of it."

Trust that he WON'T do it again, and leave it alone.

HP

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by blondblossom:
<strong> It worries me when I think that maybe I have "loved" someone that I truely don't even and never have known.
I always believed that my husband was a very "honest" man and when I think about this, I'm not even sure if this wasn't always a part of him that I just never knew.bb </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not a WS, but as a BS I can tell you something that is helping me deal with this same worry.

In SAA, there is a statement something along the lines of,

An affair doesn't happen because of a lack of values. Values change to accomodate an affair.

I'm not putting that in quotes because I'm sure it's not exactly what was written, but pretty close.

My husband isn't a liar or dishonest or a cheat or a man to hurt his family. His family values are strong and are one of the things I love about him.

But, in order to justify his affair, his values had to shift.

His perception of reality and of right and wrong are skewed.

Good people have affairs. Honest people have affairs.

Their ACTIONS are not good or honest.

Chances are, your WH is a good person and you really do know who he is. This person who has lied to you and hurt you is one who has had to change something very central to who he is to accomodate his affair.

BB

I think you make a good point, but it's one that WS's may not be able to answer easily.

If a values system has to be altered to accommodate infidelity, that suggests that the values were not firmly attached to begin with. I think many people believe themselves to be good people, loyal and honest, because that's the way they've been 'taught' to behave. I suspect that's why so many WS's are stunned to find themselves failing their own values.

In my opinion, values can only attach themselevs firmly if the person has gone through a process of personal evaluation, sifting of parental or other 'imposed' values, and committment to principles which define the person's 'statement of responsibility' to other people. Some people are forced into this process by difficult circumstances, some consciously opt for it. But people who have never had cause to challenge their ready-made belief system will not actually know that their values are loosely attached! It's not until they ar tempted by something which requires them to alter their values system that they realise how little personal committment they have to those values.

The question therefore is: if a WS's values have not been firmly cemented in prior to the A(s), has the disclosure / recovery process altered their committment to core values? Has the WS learned the hard way about the reason why committment to values is important? Because, if so, then you actually have a 'better' S than you had before (although, of course, you thought you had a high-grade S all the time!).

If not, what's to stop them re-engineering their 'values' the next time a temptation or a pressure lures them to do so?

TA

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by faithinme:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by blondblossom:
<strong> It worries me when I think that maybe I have "loved" someone that I truely don't even and never have known.
I always believed that my husband was a very "honest" man and when I think about this, I'm not even sure if this wasn't always a part of him that I just never knew.bb </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not a WS, but as a BS I can tell you something that is helping me deal with this same worry.

In SAA, there is a statement something along the lines of,

An affair doesn't happen because of a lack of values. Values change to accomodate an affair.


Chances are, your WH is a good person and you really do know who he is. This person who has lied to you and hurt you is one who has had to change something very central to who he is to accomodate his affair. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with FaithInMe.
I did have to modify, rip up, stomp on and cast out my conscience to have an A. I made a very poor decision, but for most FWS my infidelity didn't happened in ONE HORRENDOUS action, NOPE if it had it would have been more easily avoided and identified. I tend to believe the erosion of your convictions and the rationalizing starts with baby steps into the wrong direction.

opps

<small>[ October 06, 2004, 01:12 AM: Message edited by: blondblossom ]</small>

Hi,

ok, I'm just going to try to "pin down" what really concerns me.

For me, my husband was always abit naive and it time for him to figure many things out.

When I would ask him something, it usually took abit time until he found the right words. (this was his behaviour before affair)

He was "never" a "fast thinker". I'm not saying he was "stupid" only that he "took his time" until he could answer "specific" questions. Many times, he's say: Gosh, I really don't know, I have to think about that. (as I said, this was "before" his affair)

Then he is in a affair and he was able to "answer" my questions without even "blinking".

This is what I don't get.

We were once out with OW & OWH and afterwards we went to their house. A very odd situation came up and I wanted to go home.

I whispered to my husband and he told me: "Hey, OW & OWH are a "perfect team" so there is no problem at all."

Another time I was planning on going to Sweden. I just wasn't sure if I should go for 2 days or 4 days.

He told me immediately that it would be no problem if I left for 4 days, that way, he could pick me up from the airport without having to change any of his appointments with customers and we'd have the weekend together.
This shot out of his mouth so fast, I cannot believe it.

My husband was planning to leave me while I was in Sweden. He wouldn't of been at the airport to pick me up. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Well, someone once wrote a thread asking: Do you believe in signs???

I do! Just a few days before I had planned to fly to Sweden I got my husbands cell phone bill.

Never before had I opened it not did I ever look at the detailed listings. This time, I did.

It was Saturday the 13th 2001, 10.30 in the morning. I will never forget.

I knew immediately that something was wrong and I phoned him (he told me he had one appointment that morning)
I asked him kindly if he bring home some bread.

He said, "Sure Honey".

Then when he came home, I confronted him almost immeditely. At first he looked at me, very confident and said: OW had problems in her marriage and it was easy talking with her!

He said this without "blinking" again but this time, I told him: I know EVERYTHING so please tell me the truth!!!!

My husband "BROKE DOWN" and cryed in my arms like an infant!

Sorry for babbling and sorry that this is so long.

This seems to be "another step" for me towards "recovery" and towards "my inner healing". So thanks again.

You guys are so special and your responses mean so much to me.

hugs
bb

bump