Well, I didn't. Not TRULY; Pompous, self-righteous @sshole that I am.

FWW spoke gently but insistently to me yesterday, cataloging how deserted by me she felt pre-A. The EA with OM started when HE noticed she'd put on a hair colour, and I didn't..... she was so deseperate for attention, it spiralled out of control very quickly.

I noticed she coloured her hair, dammit, I just got out of the habit of commenting on such.
STUPID STUPID man.

Same with lots of other things that FWW calmly but sadly pointed out. She was almost apologetic in pointing this out, as she feels so bad about hurting me with the A, but she needed to say it.

No I didn't abuse her but I basically prioritised her somewhere below work and vacation planning..... BAD husband. I took her absolutely for granted, and as a response she withdrew to her overly independent life and gave me more reason not to 'invest' emotionally in her.

Stupid, lazy man. She DID tell me MANY times , and I ignored the warnings. She reminded me of those warnings, and I cannot deny they were there. STUPID man.

BLIND, STUPID man. How the hell did I let myself get so unappreciative of my FWW who I have always adored, admired and desired ?

STUPID man.STUPID MAN!

Yes, FWW was an equivalently 'bad' wife to me too over the same period, and in NO WAY is justified in an affair, but my FWWs words yesterday truly humbled me. We held each other crying, and apologising. She said " how can two people who have never stopped loving each other get in this state ?".

God knows, truly.

I am now humbled not only before God, but before my FWW. I have abandoned the false 'moral high ground' I was still occupying occasionally in my mind. YES she had a PA and smashed my heart, BUT She deserved a better husband than I had become.

I can see how this was needed to start recovery, but a horrible, saddening discussion for sure.

She said she can't believe the changes I have made since the A, and she is very appreciative of them. Good ol' plan A huh ?

Marriage is a journey, not a destination.

WAT

The only responsibility that I am taking on is the fact that I put sex so far down the in the line of importance in our marriage. But I thiink if I had a good husband he owuld have discussed this issue with me to rectify it, not tell me after I find out about the A. He has told me that the marriage was over way before the A, but I NEVER knew that. He never discussed one problem with me...keep in mind we were having a baby, just got married and had his father dying all during this time...so yeah, the marriage had some problems...apparently too much for him to deal with...

I do not think anything I said or did would have kept the A from happening. He said I wasn't giving him what HE needed...well what about MY needs?

So, no...I DO NOT take responsibilty...I have been unhappy too but NEVER had an A....we take responsibility for our OWN actions...not othose of others....if they want to have A's they should have the decency to tell us what they are not getting in the marriage so that it can be fixed before an A starts...or they should just leave.....not put their families thru this hell...

sorry--very angry today!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Bob,
I have never posted to you before, but have occasionally read your posts. I just wanted to say that it takes a BIG man to get to the place you are at right now. As humbling as it is to be there, it is also very necessary and in a way, very "freeing", because you can now go forward....you have laid aside your pride, and you have realized that we are all equal in our humanness. I think you have just understood something very profound, but it is difficult to articulate to other people. Recovering H is my husband and he was able to see the same things you now see, and if it weren't for that, we would not have come as far as we have at this point (8 months since d-day).
It is those who get to this point, as you just have, that I believe have the best chance for a complete recovery.

All I can say is, I am in awe of you and my husband.

Onlywords

Very true WAT. I was just thinking on those lines the other day.

Well, it takes two. That is what M is about. Anyone who tells you different is fooling themselves and is at risk of ending up posting on this board! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I definitely take responsibility for problems in my M. Yes, my W communicates poorly, avoids conflict, is dishonest, started her own independent life, and is having an A. Yes, I was oblivious to her needs, disrespectful, selfish, and stubborn.

Now the list goes on and on for the both of us. But that is the past, I am focused on the present and the future. So in answer to the question "Yes" I feel responsible for my WS affair. She is also responsible and overall it makes no difference. Because until I stop completely dwelling on whose fault things are there will be no healing. And if I don't set the example....well, I haven't been handed any olive branches lately if you know what I mean.

C.

This deserves a "bump" ^

We are NOT responsible for the choice that our WS made when they had their A, BUT we ARE equally responsible for the bad state of the marriage that created the environment that made the A possible.

And the reason for a "bad state of marriage" is a series of "bad" choices made by both parties, none being necessarily "more bad" than the other.

OW, not sure I fully agree with that. Choosing to have sex with another person in an affair is a bad decision to end all bad decisions IMO.

I feel responsible for contributing to the situation but not responsible for choosing to have the A. I dont blame myself but i accept what i brought or didnt bring to the marriage and that the situation may have pushed her away.

Bob, I can accept my role in allowing her to get into the A. And I well understand the addiction that an A is. But I completely disown the present situation. W still doesn't have enough self respect or respect for me to end contact. She has sent ME to IC and I went to MC alone and finally and reluctantly she spoke to SH. But all the while hiding her cell phone bills and fighting the SH counseling to the bitter end. She occassionally will say how it didn't help us to which I will respond "well you didn't participate".

But through it all I would agree with WAT's assessment. And add my favorite from the poem - Love Island; "only time is capable of knowing how great love is".

No I don't. When he was home, the marriage was good. It was when he was deployed so often for so long that he decided to cheat. The only part of responsibility that I can share is that I supported his military career wholeheartedly. And even in hindsight, I don't know that my personal sense of honor could have allowed me to do otherwise.

BP,
Your words felt as if they came out of my mind.

I too did not realise that I was neglecting my H and my M. I was caring for his home, business and kids with all my heart. But I didn't know it wasn't all that he needed. I never knew he was so lonely, I never thought he would consider hurting me. He told me but I thought he was joking.- STUPID WOMAN.

I never stopped loving him but I did stop making sure he felt loved - STUPID WOMAN.

And after the A ... I have waited for him to show regret, to tell me how sorry he was. I thought if he could give that to me I could forgive him and lose the anger and the sadness.

I have learnt that by forgiving him he can show me regret. He couldn't live with my anger.

I can't say that I feel responsible for the A. But I know I could have avoided and I let our M get to a place where an A became an option my H took.

BP, hanks for writing what I was feeling.

S

It may sound quite indignant.

But not only no. He!! no.

I was attentive to my WW in every way I could come up with. Every day. Day in, day out. I woke up in the morning wanting to make her day the best. I went to sleep at night thanking God she was in my life, and hoping that I had helped make her day the best. Every day.

Was our M/R perfect? No. Are they ever?

I got out of it what I put into it.

She got out of it exactly what she put into it.

Period.

Bob, that's a really hard question.

I definitely feel partly responsible for the state of the marriage. The blame is circular, though, and it really did take two. For instance...I did X behavoir...but he did not tell me that X behavoir bothered him, even said it did NOT bother him when asked....so X behavoir continued. I should've dug deeper and I should've been more aware of his feelings, but then again, he should've told me. Just...circular. But I can definitely see my part in things.

Now, there is no justificatin for the affair. Most BS don't feel partly responsible for the actual affair (just the condition of the marriage). Me? I *do* feel partly responsible for the affair.

I knew they were friends. I knew they were spending a lot of time along together. I gave my blessings for them to go to Mardi Gras together. I gave my blessings for them to play raquetball together. I gave my blessings for them to go out together. I even gave my blessings for them to go to his parents house over a holiday weekend. I even told my step-mother that it was fine with me. This is when the physical affair started.

I truly thought they were just friends. Stupid stupid stupid stupid me. Damn, I PUSHED them together!!

So yes, I feel partly responsbile for both the state of the marriage AND the affair.

Bob,

I'll explain where I'm coming from....I am a Christian. I was taught that Christ died for our sins. Adultery is a sin. Murder is a sin. Lying is a sin. Judging others is a sin.
Now, which one is the worst sin? In God's eyes, all are equal. The consequences are not equal, but a sin is a sin. If there were no such thing as adultery, if nobody ever committed murder, Christ would STILL have had to die for the so-called "lesser" sins. When you say that having sex in an affair is the bad choice to end all bad choices, that sounds to me like the words of someone who is still standing on that "moral high ground".
It almost sounds to me like much of the arguments that go on around here are nothing more than people trying to convince themselves and others that they are the "better" person for not having made a choice to have an affair. Like it's some sort of damned contest. If it is, then we are ALL going to lose.

Onlywords

Onlywords,

AMEN!!!! Great post! This is how I feel exactly. Although I don't feel responsible for the A, I do take responsibility for not being the biblical W that God called me to be. I have since learned how to be that W & I wasn't too proud to admit that I needed to learn how to be a better mother, a better W, a better person.

Yes, my H chose to get his needs filled by someone else, but I had to look at things I did to push him away from me in the first place & accept the reasons why he didn't talk to me about what was wrong in our M.

OW you are absolutely correct from a Christian perspective. There are no grades of sin in God's sight.

In my heart however adultery is a dreadful sin, inattentiveness is a lesser evil.

Bob,

It is certainly understandable how you feel, because as a society we have somehow learned to "grade" sins. Maybe some of that is because in our criminal justice system (where crime equals sin) we let the punishment fit the crime, right? But in the story of the adultress in the Bible, who was about to be stoned, Jesus did not say, "Whoever has committed a "lesser" sin may cast the first stone"...
I'm sure you realize this, and I also know that it doesn't really minimize the hurt you feel, either. I think sometimes, though, we take the extent of our pain and use that as the gauge to determine the seriousness of the "crime". It's a highly subjective way to determine things.
All in all, though, your pain and response are definitely legitimate. You certainly don't need me to tell you that! I won't take away your right to feel that way. All any of us can do is admit our part, hold hands, and go the rest of the way together. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Onlywords

Onlywords,

I agree with your posts. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Adultery is a sin. Murder is a sin. Lying is a sin. Judging others is a sin. Now, which one is the worst sin? In God's eyes, all are equal. The consequences are not equal, but a sin is a sin.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>It almost sounds to me like much of the arguments that go on around here are nothing more than people trying to convince themselves and others that they are the "better" person for not having made a choice to have an affair.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>But in the story of the adultress in the Bible, who was about to be stoned, Jesus did not say, "Whoever has committed a "lesser" sin may cast the first stone"...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>SO TRUE.

Onlywords, thanks for posting that.

Suzet

<small>[ October 05, 2004, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>