I asked my WH to leave last night. I found out on Friday that he lied to me about his whereabouts, he said he lied b/c he did not want me to know he bought a $300 gun..swears he was not with the OW. We have been having some OK days..but still lots of what he calls nagging..to me it is trying to discuss things to make an adult decision...but last night I was trying to find out why he still feels the need to lie to me if he isn't with OW. I also asked him straight out "do you want a divorce"...he always responds to that with a "what do YOU want".....

I cannot do PLAN A...I tried, but I cannot say I agree with it. I was hoping someone here would help me understand why we as the BS need to be extra nice to these people that have no consideration for our feelings or the status of their families....I can be doing a PLAN A with him and he can still be talking ot his OW...to me I would look completely stupid and weak....and YES, I want my marriage ot work, but not at the cost of me being a doormat.

THe few days I did PLAN A, we did get along great...but I felt like a schmuck b/c I did not knwo what he was up to...felt like he was having his cake and eating it too....

I also made him promise me to go to IC for some of his issues...he PROMISED me at least 3 times in the last 3 weeks he would make an appt. and hasnt...when I brought this up last night he said he wasnt ready to go and he will go when he isready....too me that is a sign he doenst give a crap what happens...

THen he started with the whole "we we hav been unhappy well before teh A started balh blah blah.." That is fog talk right? yeah it was hard for us for a while..but I chalk it up to the new baby, new house, new marriage and dying father....not the fault of the marriage...he doesnt see it taht way....

I slept like crap last night, but I feel OK today...feel like him leaving is for the best...he is a time bomb ticking and I cannot live like that and take care of my 2yo daughter...

Right now I have no intentions of ever taking him back or him ever being in the house again...I am that fed up.

This is what I got from him last night...

-That I need to stop nagging
-I need to have more sex with him
-I need to just "let it go"
_I need to stop snooping

So I am supposed to do all this and he doesnt need to do anything? Do they all think like that? He has done nothing at all to show me he cares..although he says "hey, i got an apt. but I am still here-what do ya' think that means!"..

And my snooping makes him so mad....and I keep telling him he shouldnt put me in positions where I need to snoop....but I am the horrible wife b/c I do....more blah blah blah

Some days he thinks we can work..other days he doesn't...this also seems like "fog" talk or maybe even withdrawal?!?!?

Alos, do all WS turn every thing around to make the BS out to be the bad guy? Some of the things he responds back to me anger me so much b/c it is such crap....I am not perfect, but I have been VERY good to him.....

I guess I need this time apart more than he does...I feel like I am suffocating under all of this...and am just tired of it....I have lost way too much weight, am tired and pale all the time..have no ambition and am just plain lonely. Sick of it all and do not have the energy or desire to PLAN A into action....

Can anyone talk me out of this funk?!?!? I do not know what he really wants since he NEVER tells me...he always says what do YOU want...
I do not understand what is so difficult about opening your heart looking inside and figuring out what you want? He DOES say ALL THE TIME, that "I just want us to get along"....last night he said that about 10 times...but how are we supposed to get along when he is still lying??!?!?!?!?! When I ask him thta he says "you're right, you're always right..."

UUGGGHHHH

Yes, I do think there is hope for our marriage...but I do not know what I want now!
Is that normal? Do I just need time to myself?
ANy other BS's going through these feelings?

HELP ME PLEASE I am so confused with how to deal with all of this and still be a good mom!

THANK YOU

Yes, they are all so much the same that it's spooky.

Sounds like a textbook case to me - including much of your reaction.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by jill8026:
<strong>I cannot do PLAN A...I tried, but I cannot say I agree with it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What don't you agree with? Let me guess - you don't agree that you should "allow" his behavior by swallowing your pride? He's wrong and you're right, right?

Here it is, one more time, the best question ever asked on this forum - </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you want to be right, or do you want to be married? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly what DID you try in Plan A?

Hi WAT..

I never saw that question...do you want to be right or married?..that is a great way to evaluate the situation!....I guess my problem is I do not know what I want anymore....

I am struggling with PLAN A b/c I am not open to the idea of me doing so much (which I have done for the duration of this realtionship) when I feel like he is not giving back....how much can one person give without getting back? When I tried PLAN A, I was nice, let the whole situation go bu not bringin it up, and even started having some sex with my WH...and that was VERY hard....this only lasted a few days...then it was our anniversary and he did NOTHING for it...not even a card...then a couple of days later he lies about his whereabouts...so why continue PLAN A? I keep giving pieces of me to make HIM happy? I cannot see how that is good for a relationship? If I am always giving and not getting..I will not be capable of being a loving wife anyway..right? That is where I am confused..

I do not think this is about right or wrong per se...it's about feelings and love...I don't want to be right...I want to be married....but to someone who respects, appreciates and loves me back....how does PLAN A make that happen?!?!?!?

so jill
he's out of the house correct...
but you are still in contact and powerstuggling over insane stuff

so what is YOUR plan??

doesn't sound like what you are doing is working....

so what's the plan??

we as the BS need to be extra nice to these people that have no consideration for our feelings or the status of their families....

plan a doesn't say anything about being extra nice...it just says be nice...
and you can choose not to be nice....and the WS will flee and avoid your presence at all costs...

this is not to deny your pain, hurt, and anger...
but your WS can't deal with those things right and will use your own emotions against you...

so you can choose to offer them the loaded gun..
OR
you can try ...(and sometimes you will fail as all have done..) to stay in good control
to stay in a less oppressive you are the root of all evil WS mode...and see if you can't draw them close enough to really see the pain....and hurt not on a knee jerk emotional level but on a bigger picture level of the total picture of a marriage and exactly what their own (WS) actions and choices put in jeopardy....

....I can be doing a PLAN A with him and he can still be talking ot his OW...to me I would look completely stupid and weak....and YES, I want my marriage ot work, but not at the cost of me being a doormat.

again you always have choices..
you can threaten
plead
beg
escalate in anger
lay down ultimatums

and human nature will lead your WS to withdrawl from you...for you will be the path of more pain and towards the OP....

Every time you react like he expects you to react...
then it becomes comfortable ground for you and him...
he expects you to rant
he expects you to nag
he expects you to be mad about this or that...

and each time you hand him what he is expecting it prolongs the vision of things are going to change around her...

infact the expected even when yelling and fighting is comfortable...

plan a is all about making things uncomfortable...even when the weapon used IS
calmness
logic
control
and even flirty if the need be...

THOSE thing get his attention...

do all WS turn every thing around to make the BS out to be the bad guy? Some of the things he responds back to me anger me so much b/c it is such crap....I am not perfect, but I have been VERY good to him.....

ofcourse they do...as long as they lay the blame at others..exspecially the BS...then it justifies their own actions...
AND
your reaction to that plays in to how long that riduculous behavior continues...
AND
lets be honest that some WS never get beyond blaming everyone else for their behavior...and blessed is the BS that cuts their losses and moves way out range for that crap..

but every time you power struggle the stupid stuff it just deters from the real issues.....

there is no recomendation in plan a that states specifically that you or anyone must engage in SF...that's a boundary each individual must decide where they are in that....
figure out your own boundary on that issue...

also have you exposed to OW/husband family friends...where are you on the exposure meter...

plan is a lot about learning to give with NO expectations of anything in return...it is in fact a great lesson to learn and find value in the act of giving rather than the rewards of reciprication...the more you master it...the easier it becomes....and the more you will find peace in your own universe..

but that is the exact reason why plan A is followed by plan B...because it is difficult to put your taker to rest for such an intense period...but the changes and lessons learned in plan A...even when there are mistakes...there is learning....
are well well worth it..
to the point that those that end up walking away without rebuilding...
have little to no regrets..

those with the greater regrets...are those that settled just to have the WS back....at any cost...which is often too high...

jill no matter what you choice..you need a plan..

ARK

ARK-

Thank you! I appreciate the fb...I know I need a plan..but that is what I am struggling with right now...here is my feelings, that I am not sure how to deal with...

-I want himout of the house b/c he is so miserable to be with right now and it is affecting everyone..even the dogs...

-I want this marriage to work, but want him ot take some responsibility to make that happen..

-On the other hand...I am not sure that he is the man I want to spend my life with anymore...he has become a completely differnt person in the last couple of years...one that I am not articulary fond of...but then I feel like if he gets some help the OLD man will come back..the one I fell in love with...

These are my 3 main heart tuggers right now...

Also, I want to stress...I DO NOT do things for him with any expectations of something in return...but I have been giving so much for so long I am just burnt out....

I honestly feel like we need some time apart...I need to do more for ME right now which has taken a back seat to this realtiosnhip....I feel horrible and am unhappy all the time...and I cannot do that to my daughter anymore...that is MY plan...to concentrate on my and my dd...

BUt then if I give him this time apart then he gets to go to what ever he wants instead of using this time to get help and make himself happy...

I did expose the A to some of his peers at work...(the OW works with him)....but that didnt have much of an effect...and he has no family and honestly no friends right now either...that is how miderable he is...he has cut off everyone in the last few years....I know he has deeper problems than the marriage...(he even admits that sometimes)...

How do BS'ers get through their own feelings to determine what they really want? I guess I feel like once a cheater always a cheater.....and if he ran this time b/c he wasnt getting what he needed, why won't he do that again in the future?!?!?

I am SOOOO confused! But I do know that I love him...but I cannot make him change or make him get help..and he doesnt seem to intent on doing either...he claims he doesnt like himself and always says he is a "bad person"....I do not know if he is saying that to have me say "no you are not" or if he really means it..but he says it often.....

I do not want to come off like a cold woman here...there is a lot mroe to our history...and I guess I am just tired of dealing with all of this...that is why I feel like divorce is imminent.....how do I change this attitude?!?!?!

jill

it's is all your choice...just make sure you make informed decisions...

I want himout of the house b/c he is so miserable to be with right now and it is affecting everyone..even the dogs...

know that it is more difficult to recover when seperated...

I want this marriage to work, but want him ot take some responsibility to make that happen..

this is part of recovery...not in active still in contact phase....
you and he are not there yet....
you gotta figure out how to get there...
or if you want to....

It sounds like your love bank is empty and you should consider plan b...with NO CONTACT...to let him feel and live the reality of his actions....

and give you peace from the chaos....

you should think of the fact that plan b is most effective when followed by a good plan a...that at the height of having their attention and some good times...you choose out of the threesome...
infact right when the cake-eater is really feeling good....

so consider plan b..
consider setting a three week period for plan A if you think you need to do a little better..OR it was working
then no contact...

the problem with just "time away" is that it blurs boundaries..
it's doesn't state intentions..
it kind of says we can still work on this the same way we have been which isn't working...
from afar....

ARK

ARK..thanks again....you are clearing it all up for me....I jus spoke to WH a few minutes ago...I asked him what he wanted...he said "I woke up this morning and realized that what I really want is to be a happy family, but I do not know how to make that happen."

I recommended counseling again but he says he needs to be ready to go...

So if I do plan A wholeheartedly....and STOP THE NAGGING..which is our biggest obstacle....how do I deal with things that I may find? (Like the lies?)....do I confront him or do I hold it in for a while....that is something that will be difficult...and how do I not just jump to the conclusion that he is with her every unaccounted for moment...

Do they have to earn the trust back..or am I supposed to give it to him for a while and see what happens...do I completely stop keeping tabs on him??

How does this part of PLAN A work....

Thank you SO much!!!!!

Jill, you don't ignore the evidence of contact, you talk to him about it without lovebusters. You don't rant and rave. And no, you don't trust an untrustworthy person, that would be impossible. He has to earn that trust back. But he is not willing to do that right now and you can't force him into recovery.

Right now you have to do everything to attract him back into the marriage.

If you were him, would you WANT to be with you? Or would you want to be with the OW? Does she treat him well? Which one would you choose if you were him?

Have you exposed this affair to all key persons?

Hi Melody..

Yep-the only key persons involved are the ones at his owrk..and they sure know...(OW works there too)...we have no family..my friends know..he doesnt really have any right now....

And yes, I would ABSOLUTELY rather be with the OW if I were him....but he has treated he like gold..so it's easy for her to make him happy...meanwhile I take care of his house, do his laundry, take care of our daughter and took care of his dying father...for that I get ntohing...

No I do not make this a fun place to be...but he is not fun to be with....so it is a vicious cycle...and this is wher emy internal struggle comes in...but hearing everyone's stories and hearing that you have all been through this is helping put it into perspective...

I just do not know how to deal with the possibility of him still talking to the OW while I am hear trying to be the "nice" wife....from what I have been reading it takes a lot of strenght....which maybe I do not have right now...god..why is this so darn hard?!?!?!?!

What would happen if you exposed this at work? You know that your marriage will never recover if they are working together?

And yes, I know that it is hard to treat a WS nice when you are getting nothing in return. No one said it was easy. But if you want to save your marriage you have to do things that are not easy. You will find that if you consistently treat him with kindness and respect that he will react to you differently.

See, when you lambast him and cut him off sexually, you just give him ammunition to justify his affair. He can easily justify it in his mind and has no reason to stop. But if you start meeting his needs and treating him good, you disarm him completely and cause confusion. He can no longer rationalize the affair and is forced to look honestly at his actions.

In other words, when you act crummy, you HELP the affair and shoot yourself in the foot. There is some method to our madness here, Jill, and we are trying to get you to take a more strategic approach that will [hopefully] benefit you. We aren't telling you to be nice because we want to reward scummy behavior, but only because it helps end the affair.

Let me put it another way, when you lovebust your H, you are helping the OW by making her look more attractive. We are trying to get you to STOP helping her and start helping YOU.

I know it is all difficult to swallow. There is lots of wisdom in that question about do you want to be right or do you want to be married. Being right was something that I was overdoing in our marriage pre-D-day. You have to look yourself square in the face and look for your part in this. All of what ARK said is great food for thought for you.

Reread Harley's plan A and it's purpose. You can be better than you have been without being the doormat. It is a matter of attitude and behavior. Be the best Jill you can be. Be sexy, a bit mysterious, calm, centered. I know it is so frustrating to be lied to constantly. They are very confused. You are not crazy, or to blame for everything. They say many of the crappy things they say to push it away from themselves and justify their behavior. Mine can't believe some of the stuff he said during his A.

I have been where you are. We separated a couple of times during one A. I heard the same complaints...nagging, always needing to be right. OW was fun for him. In our case it did take him going to live with her to finally have reality set in. Make your home a warm/sane place to be.

It really sounds like you have a shot to avoid that if you try to change what you are doing and try a good plan A. Plan B if you have to after that. Going dark has advantages when you have to go to that stage.

None of what you are experiencing is unique. Would your H read SAA if he isn't ready for IC or MC? You may want to pick up the Love Busters book.