stumped,

I'm confused....you say your relationship has gotten better? And yet you know she is having an affair with another woman? The conflict has stopped perhaps...but your marriage is not better. What makes you think that in six months...if this affair becomes entrenched, that she will actually move with you? Or that contact will end? Affairs don't have to be physical to destroy marriages....EAs are very destructive as well.

Much of what is necessary to address infidelity productively is "counter-intuitive" so doesn't "feel" right....or feels scary! If you do this in a loving way, that is about saving your marriage...the intitial reaction usually fades quickly and marriage building can begin if the WS will end contact.

Star*fish,

A little background:

The past few years I have treated my W bad by neglecting her and family. I put work first and did not meet many of her emotional needs. I came here and found plan A. In the process I discovered the beginning of the A. We have gotten along much better and she is responding, but her attachment to the OW is also increasing. That is why I'm stumped. My primary goal is to keep her in my life. But I also can't share her with anyone... I think she may want both until she can decide what she wants. If I press her now, it may push her the other way. That scares me, I cannot live without my children.

stumped,

This first sentence:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The past few years I have treated my W bad by neglecting her and family. I put work first and did not meet many of her emotional needs. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I could have written for you. Remember I said that the affair itself...and even the gender of the affair partner is information that says something about your marriage. Well, I already knew how you probably got here....I've just seen it too often.

Your approach with your wife....if you're going to save your marriage, (ending the affair is part of that) will need to be a loving one. "W, I know that I've neglected you in the past. I feel badly about the fact that when you needed me, I wasn't there for you. I understand why you turned to someone else and I know about your relationship with X. Please don't deny it. We have to deal with the reality of where we are now and what we have to do to save our family. One of the things that must happen is that you end your relationship with X. Then, we need a good MC so that we can rebuild our marriage and I can show you I can be the kind of husband you always needed."

If she then says....You're crazy, there's nothing going on...bla bla bla....THEN you must reveal what you know and how you know it. Please don't scare yourself, or be so afraid of losing her that you don't confront the problems and issues that will actually put you on the road to recovery.

I'm with DEAF,,,I would catch them together .

At that point I would also have the tapes recorded.

Cause if you catch them together and they are just well talking they still will denie.

So I would do all of it at the same time .

Some times depending on the WS they need to be court red handed or they will lie lie lie even longer ,,, also the BS never knows whats being told to the OP ... So catching them outs the WS in the postion of telling the trueth if thats what they told OP they where doing all along ...

Alot to think about I am sure,,, ONLY you know YOU the best , what you NEED to feel is PROFF.

FOR me I needed it in my face so my FWS could not duck and lie anymore that there was no one .

I needed him to see I caught him and I was not crazy and that all he told me did not work , that he didn't manipulate me to believe something so stupid .

JMO

3isacrowd,

You agree with setting them up...WHY? They have ALREADY been "caught red handed". The tapes are explicit and quite damning, so anything else is simply overkill, tragic drama and won't make this situation better...however, it has the potential to make things far worse!

Star*fish,

Thank you so very much. I can see why others respect you. You're right. You seem to know more than I told you. I am going to try and talk to her this afternoon. I'm sure it will get heated, but I will be calm and loving. Thanks again, I'll let you know what happens....

&#65279;Well I confronted her today. I started off by explaining where I thought our current relationship stood. We both know there is a problem and that the initial causes were my own doing. Then I borrowed some wording from Star*fish (Thanks) and told her I loved her and wanted our M to overcome this. I realized I was wrong and wanted another chance to become her everything again. I understood why she sought someone else and that contact must stop if we are to salvage our M and Family.

She started denying most of what I said after I told her I knew of her relationship with OW. I
stopped her and told her that I had listened to a phone conversation and revealed details of that
conversation. There was no doubt in her mind that I knew. She became very quit and was hurt I believe. While she was mad, she remained calm. On a positive note I think, I told her I had been
struggling with this and had not talked to anyone else about it and she said If I talked to anyone
about her and this OW, we would be over. I took that to mean she may be willing to work through this - not sure now to read that. I explained how I loved her and wanted to work this out and how if we do, it could lead to a stronger M that we ever though possible. She stayed quiet and told me she needed time to herself to think. She did not want to talk anymore and I let her go into the bedroom by herself. She has been there over an hour now. I guess I’ll wait until she has sorted this out and is ready to talk. I hope I did the right thing. I’ll keep you posted on new
developments. Thanks again for all the help!

I think you did well. What you did is hard and the way you handled it is even harder to pull off.

she said If I talked to anyone about her and this OW, we would be over. I took that to mean she may be willing to work through this - not sure now to read that.

If she ends the affair and there are no other spouses involved then there is no reason to tell anyone, other than a counselor or your pastor. But at the same time this is a pretty standard line. She may be willing to work on the marriage but a I doubt that is why she said this. The fingers will be pointed at her if this news gets out and that scares her. She'll be embarassed. She probably already feels guilty and suspects that the "scarlet A" will be hung around her neck if others find out.

I doubt that this is the end of the discussion between the two of you.....look for what WAT said was going to happen, to happen.....Twisting this around and back on you.

Great start

God Bless

Doug

stumped,

I think that went about as well as could be expected considering the complexity of this situation. How it turns out....will depend on what choices your wife is able to make in the coming days. I hope being able to be truthful has at least taken a huge burden from your shoulders....it sounds like you did this in a loving and productive way.....that's the best anyone can do.

(((((((((((((((stumped))))))))))))))

Thank God for Starfish! Stumped, starfish gave you superb advice and I am so relieved that you took it. It would have been a disaster if you would have surprised your W in the act. I applaud for listening to her because she was exactly right.

About exposure. Exposure will be necessary IF she does not end the affair. If she doesn't agree to end the affair on her own, exposure often does the trick, but don't make any threats about it, just don't make any promises that you won't expose her. You may have to do exactly that.

You have just taken the first steps in the recovery of your marriage today. Good job!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong>About exposure. Exposure will be necessary IF she does not end the affair. If she doesn't agree to end the affair on her own, exposure often does the trick, but don't make any threats about it, just don't make any promises that you won't expose her. You may have to do exactly that. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ditto ditto ditto

Exposure should be conducted in expanding concentric circles. No more than is necessary to end the affair. The hard part is determining when to move to the next level, i.e., determining if the affair is still ongoing despite whatever exposure has already been accomplished.

You can be sure now that if she continues contact that she will also do a better job of covering her tracks. It will be harder to get evidence of contact. Be resourceful and DO NOT get careless with snooping. If she finds you snooping it will all be your fault and she may twist it into justification for her affair.

WAT

Amazing thread! I'm so glad that the best of MB got involved quickly 2 help him with this sitch before it got out of control.

Having said that, there will probably be more anger from the WW in the hours, days, months 2 come.

So I just want 2 add some clarification on one of them that was discussed a lot at the beginning here.

You have NOT invaded your W's privacy. You've invaded her SECRECY. Secrecy that will DESTROY your M if you don't shatter it first.

Read up on the concept of Radical Honesty on the home page. You 2 should strive 2 be "open books" 2 one another.

best,
-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have NOT invaded your W's privacy. You've invaded her SECRECY. Secrecy that will DESTROY your M if you don't shatter it first.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2long....just WOW....this is one of the best quotes I've heard in a while....mind if I use it (credited to you of course)?

Star:

Of course you may use it!

But, I'm not that sharp (I'm pretty bright, though <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

That's a vastly boiled down summary of the "definition of secrecy, privacy, truth, and honesty" that Spacecase put on our iloveulove.com resources page.

At the risk of repeating myself (the author's self) again, I'll paste it here. It really is one of the clearest definitions I've seen:

"The Difference Between Secret And Private:

Private matters are those traits, truths, beliefs, and ideas about ourselves that we keep to ourselves. They might include our fantasies and daydreams, feelings about the way the world works, and spiritual beliefs. Private matters, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, give another person some insight into the revealer.

Secrets, on the other hand, consist of information that has potentially negative impact on someone else-emotionally, physically, or financially. Secrets, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, cause great chaos or harm to the secret-keeper and those around him or her.

Private: I believe in reincarnation.

Secret: I have a wife and a mistress and neither knows about the other.

Private: I got terrible grades in high school.

Secret: I forged my medical degree.


The Difference Between Truth and Honesty:

Truth is empirical, demonstrable fact. Your bank balance, today’s date, whether or not you’re married.

Honesty is about feelings. If you’re honest, you are open and clear about how you feel. You can be truthful without being honest and you can be honest without being truthful (the latter a little more difficult). The best relationships, stating the painfully obvious, are both truthful and honest. Trust is built on both truth and honesty, tempered by the proof of predictability and reliability."

-ol' 2long

Indeed a good thread. Thanks for all the advice. I hope this works! Anyway, several hours since the "talk" and W still quiet. She left for a few hours to "think" and came back, but still doesn't want to talk. She won't even look at me. I am assuming this is "natual" for this situation. She did cook dinner and made me a plate and she still has her ring on, so I guess she is thinking about working it out. Not sure. I plan to keep plan A'ing and won't force her to talk. I think she will talk when she is ready.

Here is another twist. This weekend, my W and OW were to play in a sports tournament together in another town. They were rooming together in a hotel. After confrontation yesterday, my W still wants to go. I told her I have a problem with just the two of them in another town alone together in a hotel, given their recent sexual activities. My W still wants to go for the "tournament". How should I react? She is hurting and will no doubt find comfort with OW to sympathize and hold her. I want to hold her and help her but I cannot if she is alone with OW...

stumped, in other words she wants to carry on the affair right under your nose. That is what is happening here. She can never ever see this woman again and that is what you must strive for. An affair is an addiction and she will never recover until contact ends completely.

Of course you can't force her not to go, but you can have a discussion with her and ask what her intentions are. Make it clear to her that you fully understand that she intends to carry on her affair and you know this. Don't believe for a minute that they won't be getting together on this trip. You must tell her that you know.

I would start thinking seriously about exposing this affair, stumped. She is not serious about ending it herself and may need some motivation.

As it is now, she fully intends to carry on this affair, but plans to just be more secretive about it. I assure you this is her plan and this is what she worked out with OW on the phone yesterday when she was "thinking."

When she left yesterday to "think" she was contacting the OW. One can "think" anywhere, but one can't plot to carry on their affair anywhere.

<small>[ October 07, 2004, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Can you access her cell phone records online? Check and see who she called yesterday while she was off "thinking."

Is the OW married or in a committed relationship with anyone? If so, that's the next person who you need 2 inform.

-ol' 2long

stumped,

Of course she still wants to go to the tournament, but is her desire to go more important than how you'll feel about it? Does it do anything to protect the marriage from future harm?

Your message to her must be very clear. "It is not okay with me for you to go to the tournament, but I can't control what you do and I don't want to. However, if you do go....I will hear a clear message from you that you won't protect my feelings or our marriage. This will hurt me deeply, and I am already suffering greatly and trying my hardest to treat you lovingly in spite of that. I respecectfully request that you stay home this weekend and talk to me honestly about where we go from here and whether you are willing to end your relationship with X."

If she goes anyway....you begin exposure...beginning with the any significant other or spouse this other woman may have....if you can discover who that is. If you can't....you pick the next most trusted family member or clergyman to help you reach your wife.

Her actions are very typical stumped....she will try to have her cake and eat it too now. I'm sorry.

<small>[ October 07, 2004, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>