ithurts..

you will never have the strength until you try and move forward...it will not come any other way...
and it waits there for you....
for you to reach out...
so you start slowly....

and you build on each achievement....

enough about him
enough about his depression
enough about what he wants
enough enough enough...

your focus is wrong
your fears are even wrong

losing "our friends", business assoc., community status, job (since I'll be bought out), home and financial security.

I don't believe any of this...
and
leaving the one man I ever truly/deeply loved,

sometimes love is not enough...but it does not tarnish or damage the gift of your love
what he chooses to do with that love is not your choice or in your control..

his actions repeatedly define him..
what he is
who he is...

as do yours....

ithurts i believe strongly in the BS fog as well...that when people live long enough in insane stressful situations and it becomes all that they know and have known...it is very damaging...


when he said I love you, when he cared..I just need to realize those days are long gone, they will not return ( I just keep praying they will)..he's in a deep dark hole and for him it's easier to stay than to climb out and be an honest, repectable man.

so what??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

ithurts I mean this all with great concern for you....

you as a child of God have a God given right of free will...and that gift should not be turned over to fears and unrealistic scenarios...

he will not change..so you must....
you must not continue in the intolerable...for it is not just damaging to him...but to you...
and you are losing sight of your own sovereignty in this world...

you must stop your participation..
ARK...I pray that you would tell me the same things if I were you....and if you would...then you must act

ARK

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ITHURTS:
<strong>
But, it's not money that I want..or I would have been gone LONG ago.....But, it may turn to that.. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What do you want?

Ark - I truly have been trying to move forward - this mini vacation I took - I went ALL ALONE - that's a first..That was a huge step for me - it showed me that I can do things w/o him.

I've been meeting friends for dinner/drinks w/o him. I've handled car issues, house issues w/o involving him. I don't even use his checkbook anymore..I use my paycheck only..I ask nothing of him anymore (probably 2-3 months).

Hell, I've never been alone - I've always had family/friends that have helped me along the way. I'm 47 and never lived alone..If it wasn't a man it was my parents that stood by and held my hand. Yes, I've been pampered a bit..probaby too much. I'm not as independant as some women.

Losing our friends, business assoc, status, some finances, is important to me..I will lose them if we D..I fear starting over - this is a life I've lived for 10+ years..It's what I'm accustomed to, he will lose nothing but some $$$$..he will be a single man with $$$ that OP will flock too, like they already have. I don't mean to say that I will be nothing w/o him - I am a good person, still attractive, etc. but change is HARD to accept when you have done nothing to deserve this.

I do believe that you are right about the Fog - I have been living a life of lies, upon lies..and I never knew it until he became blatant in his actions and had A's with employees..he didn't even care that everyone was talking about him. I swear it empowered him. God, I hope I'm not one of those people that love being miserable..that aren't happy unless there is chaos in their life..No, I'm not..but, I bet I can become one if I don't persue standing on my own to feet and moving forward one way or the other..I just don't know how w/o it still hurting inside...

SadFWW - I want my WH to Stop having A's..to stop even the EA's and be a decent, respectable, man who loves his wife. Who puts his W before all others. I want the lies, deceit, and lack of respect to go away. I want what I "thought" I had when I M him.

I want my WH to Stop having A's..to stop even the EA's and be a decent, respectable, man who loves his wife. Who puts his W before all others. I want the lies, deceit, and lack of respect to go away. I want what I "thought" I had when I M him.

blah blah blah.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> .still focused on him...

I want the sky to always be sunny..
warm...in the afternoon with cool breezy evenings...

I want it to softly rain at night...and be dry by the morning...

I want the fish to always be biting...
and the coffee always on...

hmmmm
oh yeah
world peace...
and all that other good stuff....

how am I gonna make that happen....
cause it's about as realistic as your wants...

ARK

Ithurts -

There is so much here in your thread I'ld like to comment on, but alas I'm at work and must be quick.

One thing I just have to say is that if you want this WH of yours to somehow all of a sudden see the error of his ways, fall to his knees and beg to God for HIS grace to help him become that person - if this is what you want - it isn't going to happen until YOU do something to rock his world.

And that is what I tried to tell you in my earlier post - stand up and walk away! One way or another he will change, some day he is going to meet some little fillie in your company who will not put up with his bullsh*t and he will leave you for this person who has boundaries and self respect.

You say he thinks you will never leave because of the material things he provides? I'm inclined to believe this is true, at least he thinks it's true and thats what matters.

If you love him so much and want so much to be with him in a good relationship, than why are you settling for this? Is this love?? you are living in the memory of a love that never was it sounds like to me.

Stand up ithurts, and show him and yourself that this is NOT what you are willing to accept for yourself and for your life.

Stand up and walk away. Let the chips fall where they may, and if he changes so be it, if not than you are saving yourself the agony of him destroying you with his affairs before he leaves you anyway.

I'm sorry ithurts, but you've been on my mind all day. You probably think it is easy for me to say, but I am in love with someone also who is probably a serial cheat. I did walk away and now he is on his knees taking a good hard look at himself and all the destruction he has brought into our lives, (and that of his ex wives)

Weaver

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
<strong> One thing I just have to say is that if you want this WH of yours to somehow all of a sudden see the error of his ways, fall to his knees and beg to God for HIS grace to help him become that person - if this is what you want - it isn't going to happen until YOU do something to rock his world.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Weaver- you are exactly right. ItHurts- settling for this half-life is cheating YOURSELF! Do you really want to be where you are 5 years from now? 10 years? Think seriously about what you are giving up by continuing with the status quo- and even the changes you are making aren't going to really be a change in the status quo.

Where are you Ithurts?

You wanted 2x4's, and you got them.

Now you get back here and talk to us! You are not getting away this easy, no no no.

Seriously, just thinking about you and hoping you are well.

Weaver

I'm back - I use my work computer and I was off Sat.

Ark - Again your right - I'm expecting a serial cheat/Taker to just wake up and change for ME..Why should he?? Just as I'm accustomed to my "lifestyle" so is he. People just don't "get" a conscience, dignity, and emotions and if he feels better being void of these qualities why should he seek help to "feel".

Weaver: Walking away would be the hardest thing for me to do. Just not cooking, doing laundry, asking where he goes. etc. is really tough. It breaks my heart to shut him out. To pretend I don't care - when I do care.

What - I am forced to leave the home I have built with him for some rat hole of an apt? While he lives in a beautiful home?

I am to pack my bags (hell, that would take weeks) while he sits and watches and could care less..

Wouldn't my employees/neighbors just love watching this???? Yes, I care what people think about me...

What - I am forced to change my lifestyle because he is a heartless B@#^%$#???

How do I handle work? I pay all the bills - noone is crosstrained to do this - I will still see him at work - what good will it do to move out??? We don't work side by side but we typically work the same hours.

Would changing my hours - working when he's not there make any difference??? So I would be at work when he is home and he'd be at work while I'm home. Boy talk about office gossip..That would keep the tongues wagging..

OR do I really need to go home and say ENOUGH - I'M OUT...and rather than move to a rathole - start looking to buy another house with his/our money...I cannot move too far from our area since my horse is stabled 6 miles away. He is my rock when I'm falling apart he gives me strength..Unconditional LOVE

Do you really think that moving out is the only way to get him to see that I'm serious - that I can't take anymore? Even if he never comes to me on hands and knees will the inner peace be worth where I am today?? I don't doubt that if I don't do "something" more than Plan A, 180, etc. that 5, 10 years from now I'll still be in the same place as I am today..Yes, it's a bad place - but (please dont hit me with a 2 X 4) at least I know what I'm dealing with..The UNKNOWN IS SCARY for me..

I truly thought when I exposed his A's it WOULD ROCK HIS WORLD - it did for a day or 2. When I told 2 of the women about each other - maybe they dumped him and that rocked him - but, he knows he can go out & find another "victim". Just as I was his victim 12 years ago. I had the B@LL@ to leave my BS within 6 months for this man. I had more B@lls than he will ever have. But, it's always easier to leave when you have somewhere to go..

So Weaver - you had to leave your serial cheat in order to save your M?? How long did he cheat? How many??? Did he have remorse? Did he tell you he has a problem? Did he want help? Did he get help? My WH has told me he needs help - but again, it may just be another ploy..

I've been in IC for a year now - and she says I'm stronger and in some ways I am..But, when it comes to walking out I just can't see myself doing it..

Thanks for caring about me..it's too bad I have an ounce of self-respect left or I'd be like one of his OP out chasing M men..sitting in bars waiting for my next good time..waiting for some man to slather me with attention that I'm not getting at home. Sneaking off to hotel rooms for a few hours of intimacy - that I haven't had in YEARS.....

BUMPING UP - FOR WEAVER + ARK

Ithurts,

I wasn't married to mine, I was engaged and living with.

He was married when I met him and as he traveled to my town to work from another state I did not find out he was married for 8 months. I then broke up with him immediately, he went back home and got a divorce, returned back to my town in three months and I agreed to marry him again, and we lived together for about 2 1/2 years. Even his family enabled our affair, as I went on vacation with him and not one of his children (from other wives ever let on).

Yes he is a serial cheat which I now know about his previous marriages.

I asked him to leave in May (wedding was for July) but continued to date him, while we both were supposedly working the MB program. Well in July I found out that he had had another girlfried since sometime right when he moved out.

Anyway I gave him a NC letter then, telling it was over not to contact me again and that I was moving on. I did this in the most loving way I could, but he knew I meant it.

After three weeks he started to call, I would not answer the phone, after 5 weeks he started to write letters. I still woudn't talk to him.

I knew from his messages he was in very bad shape. I knew he could barely function and that he had had to go on A/D's because he couldn't go to work. In about the middle of Sept. he showed up at the door saying that he would like to work on some things he left undone around here and on one of my rentals. He is now counseling with a pastor from my church.

Now I am dating him and he has planned a really nice weekend away for the two of us next weekend.
He is working hard at changing and so am I.

Ithurts, I think you do need to leave if you want something different for your marriage. I think when a man gets used to his cake eating way of life he will not change until he absolutely has to.

It's up to you. You other option would be to stay with him and just change yourself, hoping for the best but I think it would be unlikely to change anything with him. He is too blatant and it has been going on for too long. He KNOWS you won't leave, so why should he change?

Have your read "Love Must Be Tough" BTW. It is the book that really got me to see where we were heading if I didn't do something drastic.

It's a gamble and depends on what you are willing to settle for to retain what you have, and what it is that really matters to you. He won't respect you if you don't respect yourself. That is only human nature.

Good luck Ithurts, and I'm so glad that you are still here posting.

Weaver

One more point I wanted to make to you is this -

I honestly believe that if I would not have broken up with him when I found out he was married that he would NOT have divorced his wife. I am not so different from her, but I was the one who stood up and said no, this I will not go along with.

If I had continue to see him after finding out he was married, he would not have thought I was so special. But I ended it with him, not his wife. It could very easily have gone the other way if she had done what I did before I had a chance too.

I'm not proud of that, but after these months on MB, reading about infidelity and the minds behind it, I am convinced that it is true, and why I am with him and not her.

Men neither respect nor want a woman they can walk on.

I WILL NOT: cook dinner, do his laundry, celibrate holidays, ask him anything, basically, do nothing for him, if invited out with friends - I'll take my own car and not participate in the couples end of the outings - which is always dinner and drinks. I will speak only when spoken to.IGNORE THE SOB...

Not trying to bombard you, but would the above accomplish.

I don't get this part, plus I doubt very seriously that you would be able to do it. You are an open, honest, caring person, so how would you be able to act like that? And what would it do? It would be better to Plan A your butt off ,so he see's what he will be missing, and meet his SF needs if you can, in my opinion if you are going to stay for awhile.

Weaver - You had a great amount of strength to officially end the R and let him know that you were moving on - Did you really mean it in your heart? You did end up getting the reaction you may have been looking for - a changed man..a man who respected you - Many women in your situation would have just stayed with a M man - waiting for him to leave his BS.

Do you think the AD's helped him to face reality? To live in the real world like the rest of us.
I do believe my WH needs AD's - but I don't think his pride/stubborness will allow him to seek help. Other times I think he is happy with his lifestyle. No he's not happy that I "found out" who/what he really is - that's why he gets so angry when I tell others about him. He can't look in the mirror and he doesn't want others to see him either. He puts on such a show - that's why I was so blind about his A's in the past. Until they hit the workplace..His OP don't know him at all - it takes years to figure this kind of person out - they hide it sooo well..


Even if I leave that may not force him to change his cake eating ways - there is a line waiting for him of OP's - thinking they are "special" - that I'm the problem. Again, I don't think his pride will allow him to "need me" or anyone else. And it could be that the Taker in him feels that he's taken all he needs from me and he has no use for me anymore. He may even be blatant so that I LEAVE - which would make it easy for him. Never telling people why I really left. Just like he blamed his XW's in the past.

Your right - he has no reason to change - he feels accept me for what I am or go. It's my choice - he's taking NO responsibility for the decision to make or end the M.

I do respect myself - if I didn't I wouldn't even be able to come to work knowing that so many people know what's going on. I have lost repect for him - I thought he was a mature/professional/good business man who valued me and our life together. Boy, was I WRONG..

Men neither respect nor want a woman they can walk on.

And he may not want me anymore because I won't let him walk on me ANYMORE - I've been putting my foot down - more than I ever have in 10 years. He may be different - he may want a blind doormat.

Well - I started not talking, doing, etc. for him on Friday - still haven't spoken - I have done it - it's hard since it's not in my character - but I have to do SOMETHING...

Plan A didn't work - I really tried that and it didn't stop him - he just keep eating the cake.

As for SF - it was pretty much non-existent for the past 7 years - sex has always been an issue - he never wanted to discuss or deal with it..Said he was FINE ---yeah, he was getting it elsewhere..My SF was not important to him. It went from bad to worse - it became only vacation sex - which to me meant Hotel sex - and only 1 time - basic sex - nothing special that's for sure. Last Oct - while on vacation he did ask for oral sex - he never wanted that before - even though I tried..in Dec. when I asked him about that - he said - he didn't think that was something his "wife" should do..So what, he uses the OP's for sex that he doesn't want to ask his wife for - that's crazy..I've been waiting 10 years for fun and never had it with him..Basic parts of love making were never a part of our sex life..WHY????

Are the A's the only place he can seek his SF?

Is it the sneeking/whathe thinks is sleazy sex that he prefers?

I do think he is in deep with 1 of the OP's - maybe he even cares about her (to level that he can care) and can't let go/get out..I doubt that he will leave me until she does something - though, I could be wrong - maybe it's all of them that he doesn't want to give up..

We need to talk and I just don't see it happening - he needs to open up and tell me the truth for once - I need answers - then maybe I could easily walk out the door OR stay and help him to heal/change. Not knowing is worse..We've had little conversation regarding our M and he doesn't seem to want to talk at all.

I will be telling him soon that I'm done - he can live his life the way he wants - I again, will tell him that I will not accept his behaviour and that I will live my life. Don't expect anything from me.

He will have what I percieve that he wants

HIS FREEDOM TO COME AND GO..AND ME NOT TO CARE/QUESTION..JUST DON'T QUESTION ME EITHER...

Is this yet another wrong attempt???

Ithurts,

When I told him I was done, I meant it. I cannot live with a cheater, it would destroy me. I love him but no longer was willing to be in a relationship which was less than what I wanted. I want to have a great marriage, and I will no longer settle for anything less. If it means getting over him and meeting someone else, I am prepared for that.

He started taking A/D's because he had some kind of a breakdown. I think he was always depressed a little anyway and used affairs for the good feelings. He fell apart when I ended it with him I think because all his divorces and failures hit him right smack in the face and finally brought him to his knees. And no I did not know this would happen, but I guess I hoped it would. You can only go on so long with that lifestyle before something in you breaks...he is 44. He is by the way a very kind person so I think the realization of the amount of pain he has inflicted hit him hard. Before he was always able to blame something or someone else for his failures, realized finally that it has always been him.

I did not have what you have invested in your marriage, 10 yrs, the business or all the assets. I was self sufficient financially before I met him with a little girl to take care of.

Our sitch's differ that way.

I really feel for you and what you are faced with. Either walking and being prepared for your marriage to end, or staying and finding emotional and SF elsewhere, like he is doing.

You may need to try the latter before you are ready for the first, I don't know.

But nobody should have to live without SF with their spouse. That alone would be enough for me to walk, but that is just me.

You need to work through this in your head and your heart somehow to figure out what you can and cannot live with. (or without is probably more apt)

If you can afford it and it sounds like you can, why don't you setup some coaching sessions with Penny Tuppe at saveyourmarriagecentral? She is quite incredible from what I have been reading. Maybe she can help you work through this.

Hang in there Ithurts, you'll figure it out and this pain won't go on forever.

Weaver - Sounds like you both did alot of soul searching and talked to each about your needs. Thats great - and that's something "we" have always lacked. ANy argument would always just go away, it really was never discussed. I think in the beginning we thought or I thought "love" would resolve or keep us together.

My WH has been D 3 times and has 2 children 25 + 27 that he has just recently gotten closer with - could it be because they are now employeed by us. So again, my WH is paying for attention/love - it's a cycle. He gives $$$ no emotions..The attention/emotions he may give to the OP are probably just a part of his game/act - like they were with me.

I really don't think I can find emotional or SF elsewhere unless the hurt he inflicts finally takes it's toll on me and my love turns to hatred/indifference. Then finding someone to fill those needs will happen on it's own. Believe me the guy won't be M - but, what value is a man that dates a M women??? Not much IMHO..

It's been so long since I have been touched/loved that I can't imagine someone other than my WH touching me. Though, I guess should I weaken it could happen - never say never..

Then there is the alimony - should I be caught cheating my WH could file for D and I would not get alimony - which would be totally unfair but that's the law in my state.

I should have demanded theraphy years ago when SF was still so important to me - he's stripped me of that too. He just always made me think it wasn't important to him. That he liked things the way they were. I still want him sexually - but, since it's been so long I've learnt to live w/o it. Sounds crazy but sometimes you don't miss what you never had.

I wish I could work thru this, you would think after a year or more the answer would be easy - it isn't any easier at all. If anything, some days it's harder since I've tried so hard I hate to give up - but what am I giving up on??? A serial cheat. Someone I may never be able to trust. I sit here and pray for my WH to change, to have a great M ,for all I know, should he change I may not even be able to move forward with him. Since he's not tried to resolve this - how do I know that I could really resolve it. Maybe we can't..and I just want what I can never have...

I will get the book Tough Love and read that - I'll also contact Penny Tuppe. My IC may not be the right person to help me thru these decisions of the heart/mind.

I'm just gonna stick with holding out my part of being a doormat - maybe he'll make it easy for me and file for a D.

I truly appreciate your support and I'm happy that your R has turned around and is based on honesty and love. We all need that. There are many here whose WS is still involved w/OP's it just gets so frustrating beating your head against the wall and getting nowwhere..ithurts..

Your right - the answer will come - I just want it sooner than later - so I'm not so old that I never can enjoy a R again..

Ithurts,

Just to clarify that I in no way was advocating infidelity on your part for SF, just wanted to get an idea of where your head was, or what your core value was in that area.

I'm so glad you are going to get with Penny T., it would be most helpful to others if you could post her insights, suggestions because there are many dealing with spouses who have had multiple affairs.

Penny (aka Cerri on here) had a thread running over on the emotional needs side of this forum titled "what one question would you ask re: infidelity?". It's a really good thread and well worth the time it takes to do a search for it.
Anyway someone asks about serial cheaters and she says she doesn't buy into the whole serial cheater thing. She has seen them change and become monogamous. It's all about the pain of the staying the same outweighing the pain of changing.

Your husband also seems like he's got some kind of sexual disfunction going on, unless it is just his way to justify affairs, but it would be interesting to see what Penny has to say about that also.

Weaver

<small>[ October 12, 2004, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: weaver ]</small>

Weaver - The main problem I think I'll run into with any IC will be my perception of my WH. I really after being with him 12 years have NO IDEA who he is...isn't that sad...

Everything I think could be totally off base - I have no way of knowing the truth - did he ever love me? Did he M me to get back at someone else? How many A's has he had? Does he really love someone else and settled for me? Am I only the doll in the china closet?

Maybe the lack of sex is because he does not find me sexually attractive. I don't know what he thinks of me..I don't know anything. If he would ever sit and tell me the truth about alot things - I would be better equipped for IC. I have so many thoughts/reasons/excuses for his behaviour yet I could be ALL WRONG...The IC would be able to see if he is a true SC (who will never change) or if it is less painful to continue his behaviour than to work on having a M with me.

The truth can't be seen..I wish he could see that I need the truth..that it might even set me free...

But, I will contact Penny and see if she can help..

I was following the forum on infidelity - I got "lost" after awhile - since it seemed to bounce around a bit..

I'm still in my shut him out mode - and he seems angry but also gives the attitude - that if I'm gonna treat him like crap - he'll treat me the same way..That's usually how he works..all about him..Can't see that he's destroyed sooo much and has given so little.

Thanks