betrayedinjersey & SOM,

No one knows the real intention here of OW, we could guess and try to speculate. Let's get back at course here.

-rh-

<small>[ October 09, 2004, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: betrayedinjersey ]</small>

redhat,
You're right, and I apologize. I've sworn to try to avoid this particular situation...but I think I'm like a deer in the headlights..and Dday was the same week. I get too overly charged.

I apologize again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Written by Dad to 3 boys:
I will do my best to be a parent to this child with my family's support. It may not be ideal but I assure you it will be far better than what many children in this situation are faced with. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You mean similar to the great dad you've been to your 3 boys by putting your family through hell again and again for months on end?

Brutal words? Yes they're brutal, but only because you've continued giving lip service to your family and never followed through with any of your promises.

So I ask again, what is different THIS TIME?

Jo

mom,

Just wanted to let you know I am feeling for you right now.

Don't want to lose sight of your original post.

Right now, this is your father's time. You need to be there for him. This is HIS time. You will do the right thing, I know.

Don't be distracted. Don't let selfish people take this time from you, and your family, who have loved you and cherished you. Now is the time to cherish your dad. He is ill. He needs you and everyone around him to love him at this time.

Maybe your WS will be there for you. Maybe he won't. But now, is your father's time.

I know these things. I left my family, and this was the very first time, to take care of my father when he needed me. He was dying. My father was my rock, all of his life of course after I was born. LOL. I did not hesitate to leave all and take care of my dad when he needed me, my mom could not, ( health issues).

Just put this all aside. Your dad has a limited amount of time left. He needs your love. I hope and pray that your H will understand this. If not, then do what is best for your dad right now. You will be so glad you did.

I hope your H can put ow and issues aside for you at this time, if not, well, accept the things you cannot change, change the things you can,and ask God for the wisdom to know the difference.

Praying for you and yours. You are WORTHY. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Don't forget that.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Dad and Momto3boys -

I have been off the boards for a couple of months now, but have followed your thread from the beginning and came on today, read this, see your latest developments....praying for you both...just going to offer some perspectives from my end...

One of the reasons your story touches my heart is that I am a child of a divorce so incredibly similar to your story - my dad is a doctor, his OW is just like the OW in this case...in his case, OW got REPEATEDLY pregnant, and there were awful abortion scenes played out in other people's homes, fake suicide attempts, calling our home day and night, incredible manipulative cruelty to my mother, my father lying, him on again and off again with her..my father even pledging himself to my mother and his children...then failing to be able to follow through...in short...I speak from the position of one of your children should your resolve fail, Dad....

My dad failed in his attempts to free himself of the addiction of the affair...he is still with the OW...she is still crazy and manipulative...he is still making excuses for her behaviour....my most recent phone call to him last week was short and kind - he let me know that she was "speaking to him again...calmed down now..." apparently she had gone completely haywire over something (not an uncommon event - pretty spectacular to watch)...

Dad started drinking after he left us...his career survived - he was Chief of Staff of his hospital for many years....but he finally hit bottom about two years ago when he passed out in his hot tub and had to be rescued by emergency services...they wanted to take him to the closest hospital and he refused, because it was his own hospital and everyone knew him there, they also knew him well at the next nearest three hospitals...they had to take him 30 miles away to get to somewhere where the staff wouldn't recognize his name....does that sound like a happy man?

Worst of all the consequences of his failure to end the affair was the loss of my brother....my brother was 11 when the affair ended in divorce....this had been a five year affair and my mother fought the same fight Mom is fighting here, but she finally lost it one day and threw him out (when she found out he chose to spend my birthday with the OW) - my brother slowly came to pieces over his teenage years...sinking into adolescent depression, at some point took a hallucinogen at least once which launched him into a schizophrenic breakdown...he went completely paranoid seemingly overnight when he was 19 years old....from which he never recovered..he was intractably paranoid for the rest of his life...he died in 2001 at the age of 43 from liver failure, the side effects of 23 years of anti-psychotic medication....

I'M TELLING YOU THIS DAD, BECAUSE YOU NEED TO HEAR THIS. You are a medical man and you KNOW what I am talking about! My father spent most of his life AFTER his divorce grappling with the nightmare of his son's mental illness...as he said recently..."it was all we could do to just keep him from killing someone..."

My brother was a kind, gentle and BEAUTIFUL young man...he looked like a young Adonis..physically gorgeous...I could send you the pictures of him taken a few months before he died...it would break your heart....

I am telling you this because this is the raw truth about what happened to our family as a consequence of my father's affair with the same kind of OW you, Dad have got yourself entangled with....this isn't Jerry Springer...there is no attempt here at drama or wallowing in suffering...this is just the way life turned out for us because of MY FATHER'S CHOICES - because of his weaknesses....

My father had other choices and the strangest thing of all is that he DID love his wife....my mother died in May, and he did the best he could to help her....even though their marriage had ended 35 years ago, he retained a relationship with her, which drove the OW nuts...even now, I am still sorting through in my mind, the reasons why my mom and dad's marriage failed...the main reason was my Dad - his inability to address his own addiction issues, his inability to address his own personal and sexual problems, and the fact that he got involved with a truly aggressive, disturbed OW.

I am so glad to see, Dad, your posts here and can hear that you wish to stay married and keep your family together...I believe that you are sincere, and that you truly see your failings and some of the damage you have done, which....it is not too late to repair, with time...

But I believe you are setting yourself up for incomplete recovery and years of trauma for yourself and your family by justifying being in contact with the OW for the sake of the OC. There is no reason why you have to have any contact with her whatsoever....perhaps you are afraid she will sue you for sexual harassment if you cut off all access to yourself and your family?

You say you are fully committed to your wife and your three boys...that is not true unless you are willing to put their needs first before all others, and that includes the OC until you are absolutely sure that that OC is yours....

Right now, your home, which should be the nest in which your own children are safe from harm, is still a battleground between your wife and the OW - your wife is trying to protect her home and her children - the OW is still assaulting the safe place by persisting in calling you - and you are allowing it and expecting your wife to tolerate it..

This is not necessary. All of your contact with OW should be through a lawyer...you should make her an offer of child support based on proof of paternity...any requests she has to you should be made through your lawyer.....if the child turns out to be yours, you have no right to expect your wife and children to accept this child into your home for regular visitations....you can arrange to see the child on it's own (without the OW present, and in the presence of your wife, at the OW's mother's home). To inflict this child on your other children, especially after what you have already put them through, would be cruel to the OC as well - you are simply not looking at the jealousy and anger children are capable of, especially when they feel powerless - the OC will be vulnerable and needs protecting emotionally, as well.

The best solution could well be that you let the situation rest, offer a relationship with the OC by letter when it is older, and let the OC make it's own decision about whether or not it wants to know you or not.

All this is dependent on the OC being proved to be yours. If the OC is not proved to be yours....you should have no further contact with this woman for any reason whatsoever.

No contact with this woman is the only way to truly regain the trust of your family, and the respect of your sons...you owe that to them....

Contact is being maintained as a way to keep a line open to manipulate you emotionally - it's the OW's way of inserting a blowpipe into your home and shooting poison arrows down it every time your wife or one of your sons is visible through the other end...because believe me, contact with you (even with your wife standing next to you) IS felt by your children...and it hurts them....so the question you need to ask yourself is....how long are you going to go on allowing your other children to be injured by this affair? Why do you tolerate the pain of your other children? Why have they become less important to you than the welfare of an unborn child whom you don't even know is yours? Plain and simple....any contact with OW hurts your other children.

My father's affair profoundly damaged, even ruined the lives of the people he loved the most....I am praying that you take this chance to not go down that road....

I am also grieving this week the death of an old and close friend....he was someone I met when I was 21 - since I am 47, I guess that makes us friends for 26 years....he married at the same time I did, he had three boys and my husband and I had two...our sons are all roughly the same age....he died two weeks ago at the age of 45 following a 15-month battle against kidney cancer, which was discovered last July by accident - young, fit, well, no symptoms....he leaves behind three boys, age 11, 9 and 6 1/2. As bad as that is, I keep thinking, at least my friend's wife can mourn the death of a husband who was devoted to his family, and his sons can remember their father as a man to try to emulate, a man of integrity.

Life dishes out choices for all of us, and for some of us, time runs out before we know what's happening....in the final act, how are we all going to measure up?

You STILL have a chance to recover your integrity as a man, as a husband and as a father....

"Living up to your responsiblity" by staying in personal contact with the OW is NOT the way to do that....if you refuse to look at the other, more sensible options...that should redflag you to the fact that there must be a personal issue within yourself which you need to address through individual counselling.

A few years ago, my father admitted as much to me - I asked him "Why?" and he replied - "I wish I had never got involved with OW, I wish I had never met her...but I was all f-----ed up with all my problems then...and now I have to live with my mistakes..."

Wishing you all the best.
LIR

<small>[ October 10, 2004, 04:33 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

LIR...

Hope you are well...
as always your posts carry great truth for they speak only of what has gone past....
<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
blessings to you and yours..........

ARK

LIR,
Good to read your post. I admire your ability to convey your thoughts through your writing. I've missed your presence here.

Hope you are well.

LIR,
There is nothing left to add after your compelling post. I think your "dropping in" after a couple of months away was more than coincidence.

Mom,
(((((HUGS)))))) and lots of prayers for you and your parents. Please put DAD aside and concentrate on your father. We've talked before about me losing my mom and then my sister. Your mom needs you right now, more than DAD does.

Your father will want to know that you are able to comfort his wife at this time. Focus on them for now, as best as you can, so you have no regrets in the future about your father's passing.

And remember, your dad will only be as far away as all of the good memories you have of him tucked away in your heart forever. He is going to a good place, a magnificent place, where his pain will be gone. Rejoice with him that he will soon be free!

Dad,

Welcome back. Can't add anything to what's been said. I've been watching this show far too long to make any constructive criticisms or offer any positive comments. Just know that I am praying for you, too. I honestly believe your future does not have to be what LIR described. I earnestly pray that it isn't.

~ Snow


~ Snow

LIR I appreciate your post. I sincerely want no contact with OW. I will wait four months and after the paternity test, if mine I will provide financial support. I like the idea of waiting 6 months to a year after the birth to see if any POJA arranged relationship is possible. By that time I will know what OW intentions really are and if she plans to use OC as a battering ram agaist my family then NC OC and that's it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by dadto3boys:
<strong> LIR I appreciate your post. I sincerely want no contact with OW. I will wait four months and after the paternity test, if mine I will provide financial support. I like the idea of waiting 6 months to a year after the birth to see if any POJA arranged relationship is possible. By that time I will know what OW intentions really are and if she plans to use OC as a battering ram agaist my family then NC OC and that's it. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YAHOOOOOOOOOOOO

((( Dad )))

This is IT!!!

Perfect-o!!!!

Pep

One can only pray he'll follow through this time.

"Consistent" actions that match his words will be telling.

<small>[ October 10, 2004, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by dadto3boys:
<strong> I sincerely want no contact with OW.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just curious, Dad. What has brought about this change? Was it the fact that OW XBF might be the father of this baby? That she has someone to "fall back on?" Just curious. It is a good thing, however it happened, but the "why" is important to your recovery.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by dadto3boys:
<strong>I will wait four months and after the paternity test, if mine I will provide financial support. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dad, by "wait four months" do you intend to wait in full NC with OW? No calls about the pregnancy progressing, no running to the doctor's because she's having problems, no anything?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by dadto3boys:
<strong>I like the idea of waiting 6 months to a year after the birth to see if any POJA arranged relationship is possible.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you saying that there will be absolute NC with OW for up until six months after the child's birth (assuming, of course, that if the child is yours, that CS payments still begin at birth). That would mean that from this day forward, you will have NC with OW for 10 months. Is this what you mean? Or am I reading too much into this?

I think after 10 months of showing mom you are truly committed to the marriage and saving it, the two of you will be on excellent footing to POJA whether to have contact with the child or to go no contact.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by dadto3boys:
<strong>By that time I will know what OW intentions really are and if she plans to use OC as a battering ram agaist my family then NC OC and that's it. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly. And consider this.... If you haven't begun contact with the child during these 10 months (other than child support if the child is yours), it will be easier to decide NC for good at that point if that is what you both agree is necessary.

Have you read up at all on the Pregnancy/Child board? You can glean a host of possibilities of what it means to attempt contact or to go no contact. It might help in your decision-making to read some of the stories over there and ask folks who have done one or the other for their thoughts.

Take care.

~ Snow

edited to clarify some of my thoughts... I hope!

<small>[ October 10, 2004, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: Snowbelle ]</small>

Dad, I was also curious what brought about this change. Was it that Mom was finally going to D you because her love bank is empty? Is it because OW slept with her exbf? Just curious!

I have also noticed no comment from you about whether you are going to give up the nursing home. Also, no comment on whether you plan on getting into IC and MC. I hope you REALLY understand you and Mom aren't JUST going to get over all this damage without serious work, especially from you.

If being married to you is the right thing for Mom, if it's what God wants at this point, then I do hope you both can recover. After all the pain she has gone through I am reserving my judgment about whether she deserves more than you can give her. Sorry, don't mean to be harsh. These have been my feelings about her situation for months now. I guess time will tell what kind of a man you can be.

Mom, my thoughts and prayers are with you now. As I and others have said, just be with your dear father now, and your family. Love and prayers to you!

LIR, my condolences to you for the loss of your friend and your Mom. It is so hard to experience more than one death in a such a short time. Your mom sounds like she was a wonderful woman. And thanks for your thoughtful post. It it doesn't wake up a WS to the consequences of their actions, then nothing will. CV

Remember on those Charlie Brown cartoons when the teacher is talking but all you hear is a trumpet..that's what I think of when I read Dad's posts. Alot of talk that makes no sense.

A friend of mine is a doctor and says that all "sensible" doctors realize that often office staff see doctors as god-like and a cash machine. Time after time I hear of doctors leaving their wives to marry some manipulative office staff that makes life to be the misery they deserve. My friend tells me that he and his friends who are doctors, often talk of this dilemna therefore they know to keep their distance and discuss those who are stalking the cash machine. Obviously, Dad doesn't have that sense. His cash machine stalker got him...in the most insidious way. Because of Dad's foolishness, Mom and his sons will greatly suffer. Shame on him...

I don't understand why he isn't as mad as a wet hen. This may not even be his child and he still talks about visitation and expenses! If I were a betting person, I'd take a bet that this is xbf's child. She knows it too. That's why she panicked when you and Dad spoke to him. The secret is out. She can't manipulate him into not having a paternity test and it'll show the truth.

Not only do I feel sorry for Mom and boys, I feel sorry for the residents of this nursing home. Imagine how little care these poor helpless people are getting because the staff is wrapped up in this drama that Dad and the monster created!

I've lost my father and it was the worst day of my life. I could hardly catch my breath the day we buried him. Mom is going through this while Dad and his drama are sucking the life right out of her. Shame on him...

Mom you deserve so much better. I've read the same things from Dad before...the same my family means everything to me...and then a few days later read that you learned he was still in contact. Like Dr. Phil says a predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

At a point in my life, I too felt that I couldn't go on without my stbx. I am losing my eyesight-it's already gone in my left eye and the doctors aren't really sure how much longer I'll have my right eye. That kept me from walking away.... My h is gone now and I'm happier than I've been in many, many years. The stress is gone and I'm free to come and go as I please. My daughter loves that he's not here and now as we approach the 2.5 month that he's gone, we rarely even speak of him! Just think in only 2 months, we can't even remember him being here. We look forward to a wonderful Christmas filled with love and laughter...with him it would be miserable. His concerns and problems ruled our lives. He demanded that his dramas were to be our only focus. He is a classic narrcissist. As Dad it never occured to him to consider anyone but himself. Now he's a lonely man living in a motel room because he thinks he's coming home and doesn't want to buy a home or sign a lease. He cries when his daughter calls him and that's only for money. He'll take that because it's better than nothing. How pathetic his life has become and it's his fault. He said we couldn't live without him-we live BETTER without him. Mom you can too...

Pep, maybe I am wrong, but all I got out of Dad's post was "if (and only if) then NC". Sounds like NC is a long way away to me and there is a lot of fog still swirling around Dad. LIR, just a question. Would your father have found strength to end his A if your mother had told him to leave much, much sooner? Maybe if Dad doesn't want to listen to your message, maybe Mom will.....

Well, I got from Dad's post that he sincerely wants to end the contact with OW, and he wants to put his family with Mom first - he wants to find out if OC is his, and then offer child support.

I think he genuinely wants to recover his R with Mom and put things right - but if wishes were horses, beggars would ride...

I still don't think Dad gets it that he should end contact NOW, and offer whatever support he is prepared to give through a lawyer only. That is the only way forward...to allow OW to continue contacting him for any reason whatsoever is to allow her to continue to injure his family and jeopardize his recovery....this is what my Dad's OW did time and time again...and eventually, she got him....

My mom and dad's R was complicated by other factors, but I have come to the conclusion that despite all the circumstances involved, if my Dad had been loyal, sensitive to her needs and had put her first, instead of himself, their marriage could have survived. Given the kind of emotional abuse my mom was suffering, and the damage it was doing to us, though, I will say that EVEN though my brother's life was lost, the best thing my mom ever did was walk away from her marriage - I respect her for it...I hurt for her and everything she suffered and was cheated out of by the OW...because my mom genuinely lost everything....my dad made $100,000/yr and my mom got nothing...no house, no pension, no assets...she was a star of a person...loving, giving, kind and beautiful....no-one can take that away from you unless you let them....

And yes, I think if my mom had had the kind of support offered here on MB, and had she gone to plan B sooner, yes, I think she might still be married....Dad genuinely loved her, but he was screwed up and willing to take as long as she was willing to take it...when she was no longer willing to take it any more, it was too late...he had been in too deep and for too long....

and this is the cruncher....just like Dad here...he felt OBLIGATED to "help" the OW through all her difficulties - he had a "responsibility" to her....it doesn't matter how old or who the OP is...when this dynamic is in play, the game is still not up....until Dad GETS IT that he has NO obligation to the OW emotionally, he's still vulnerable to being sucked into contact and a R with her....

and yes, the cash machine...my Dad's OW has been heard to scream at my Dad - "I thought you were a rich doctor! How come I have to live like this?!" In front of his own brothers and sisters....from a woman who has never worked a day in her life...she has been heard screaming at him "Why do you still have to pay her alimony after all these years?" ($200/mo for life my mom was awarded in 1969 - that's what she got after 20 years of being married to a doctor, having given up her own scholarship and worked to put him through medical school)...that's why it was HIS family who helped us bar my stepmother from my mom's funeral in May - after 35 years, they can't stand her...at the end of my mom's life, it was clear that she is the one who was loved to the end of her life because of who she was...it is actually Dad who lost everything...his integrity, his family, his money, his self-respect....

Now, having said that, I still love my Dad and I know that he loves me....he is honest about his mistakes, and he tries to be there for me in spite of the OW....he is not an evil person and I don't hate him...I am very sorry for him because of what he lost, and what we all lost, but we can't go back and make it all better anymore...

I am feeling for Momto3boys in this - losing your parents is really tough, and losing a parent while you are going through this is VERY hard....but I do think Dad WANTS to be there for Mom....he just isn't "quite" there on the all-important details yet....

Dad - no 2x4's from me....just encouragement for you to do the right thing....cease all contact with OW, deal with her through your lawyer....if you can't do this, then OW still has some control over your emotions....and that's what she wants....control over you....if you lose this fight and end up with OW, she will control you like Baba Yaga for the rest of your life....so who do you want to be in control - you, or her?

LIR

P.S. - She is already using the OC as a battering ram against your family - and the child isn't even born yet. She'll keep doing it as long as you let her.

LIR,

Your words ring so true.

The OW in my case was very manipulative with the OC, blatantly so.

And what I found the most surprising is that she would use her son at his expense to gain a foothold with my husband. She didn't seem to care that it hurt or confused him [OC], as he was old enough to know something wasn't right and expressed it to me several times.

Her primary focus was legitimizing her stance with my husband, to get him to leave me, thereby using her son at all costs. Is was very sad to see a mom do that with her child.

<small>[ October 10, 2004, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

What opened my eyes was finally realizing OW was not who she said she was and my wife is who she is. When OW freaked out that my wife was talking to her x who she had painted as a pathetic love sick fool who would not let go and the truth was she had as I suspected been stringing him along by having having sex with him just enough to keep him, while she waited for me to leave my family, eventhough she said I never would to deflect the stigma onto me that I was stringing her along. When my wife looked at me and said she needed comfort and was getting it from someone else and she was ready for me to go That is when i realized I was about to make the biggest mistake of my life. I dropped the notion of being with OW like a lead ballon. I felt a torent of emotion for my wife that I had not felt in recent memory, This time I was not thinking I would appease my wife and secretly go back to OW. I want her(wife) back. The NH is a big POJA. I cannot quit for 30 days, I have OW schedule, and so does my wife, I can also go after hours with my wife. I have given the pager and my cell phone to my wife, she cannot page me or call me with out my wife knowing. I have my wife's phone and I am scared OM will call her. I am not concerned with OW. Yes I may be forced to quit, but remember OW knows where all the nursing homes are (total of 4) she knows where my office is, all the when and where's she has. So my point is I would have to put my business and home up for sale. If my wife wants me to I will, It is uder POJA. I get caught I am toast. My wife will leave period. OW is a huge risk to me but I have to let her in, I WILL NOT. You will all see. Predict all you want, I know I will come through this time. Only time will tell you as I have no credibility. As for Dr phil and past behaviour, I have never had an affair until this one that is 11 plus years. Nothing not even close. I was a regular guy who came home to his wife every day and thought about my family my business and my race cars. I want my life back because strangely my last 9 months were a total waste. I hurt my family, hurt myself and lost all that precious time to enjoy what I consider to be a great life. I am going to MC and if I need IC fine. My buddy dr phil can set that up for me with the best in the country. I want this to work,the harley;s could not help me because my mindset was that I was settling for a marriage I did not want. No counselor can help you unless you are in recovery or at least want to be. I want to get there now.

I am confused, and I don't mean to pry .. but did you say that your wife has another man waiting in the wings (aka OM)???

Sorry if I mis-interpreted.

Jo