GC, I know that you were just waiting for me to chime in w/i know exactly how you feel when you say:

"I think I'm only able to stay in plan A (from a distance) because I don't have this stuff coming at me every day.

But I've heard worse..."

there are many pros and cons (if you can call them that) to my situation of not even living in the same state as my H. but i think having that distance has definitely enabled me to remain in plan A and behave in the manner that i have. i've mentioned it before but will again. SH told me that the reason that H has not filed is because i am making it very difficult for him because of the way that i have been and acted during this whole thing. because in all actuality it's very easy to file and if you want something bad enough you can come up w/the money some how. the BS's are no longer the way they were when the A's started so the WS find it even more difficult to justify their A's. i think the same can be said of your situation. that's exactly why nothing final has been done w/us (you and me) in our no fault-states is because i really believe that our WS are still waiting for us to do take the action of D. Again, that's exactly why i can't.

don't you think that by us holding out is causing stress between the WS/OP? of course it is. yeah maybe your OM is going through a D but don't you think he's asked sparrow why she hasn't proceeded with the D in your M? same thing for my sitch, as SH told me the OW knows my H is still M and that has got to be getting to her. oh well, i can't say i'm sorry about that.

but you said something that i have not even considered myself and you really kind of opened my eyes when you said that you loved sparrow but now you weren't in love w/her anymore. that's it, that's what i've been trying to put my finger on about how i feel about everything and it was right there in front of me the whole time because that's exactly the way my H feels about me. but because i am not having an A i just didn't relate it to myself. i do love my H, miss him, but i must also say that i'm not in love w/him anymore. and you know what we can't really be blamed for this and it was inevitable if our S continued the way they have been and really makes sense w/the lovebank analogy.

to touch base on what maddy has talked about here, about new relationships, i have started to develop fears that i just don't know what to do with. maybe it's because i've started watching "Friends" and "seinfeld" and really started to look at my experience w/R's. i know there just TV shows but still they talk about entering and leaving R and i've never done that before and i must admit that it's scary to think of. i imagine myself sitting down w/someone (a man that i would be seeing at the time) and telling them all about my marriage and my experience and my expectations and things that i won't change, etc. then i imagine all the problems that i could encounter in another R (okay i actually have someone in mind) like in-laws, step kids, since i've made a committment not to engage in any kind of real sexual activity before i'm married (again)then what? what if i just really don't like it w/him. I refuse to go out w/anyone that does not share the same beliefs that i do, so basically i'm relegated to seeing people in my church. what if i go out w/someone and then it just doesn't work out, it would just be extremely awkward then. so there's a whole new set of things i've started thinking about but i really pray to God to get those things out of my head because i'm really in no position to be thinking about those things now.

yes, please gray (and everyone) continue to pray. it helps me to pray that my eyes be kept on Him (God) and that way i'm kind of removed from thinking about the situation. God Bless, RR

<small>[ October 08, 2004, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: roughroad ]</small>

^ bumping for gray cloud to reply (please)

WW has decided it's best for her to move out as soon as possible. I've not accepted it, but WW see's this as the only right thing to do. She seems so relieved now that this is out there. Problem is, WW spent all of our $ gambling and carousing with OM! Two days ago, she asked if I would help her find an apartment, help her move, and our D5 should help with the move!!! What about that one!? Our D5 help move!? The F never ends..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

RR, I don't know if the sparrow is taking it as slowly as I may have thought.

She seems still inclined to keep her eyes slammed shut and try to get it done ASAP. Figuring her wonderful new happy life will finally begin for real once she gets it all over with.

I'm actually not entirely sure I'm out of love with my WW. I guess so, but I see her so little. I have a seemingly bottomless well of compassion for her. When she cried in front of me a few weeks ago, I cried, not because I was sad for the same reason, but because I was seeing her in pain. I think for a few seconds even she understood that.

RR, as far as dating goes, I think it is very important to not sweat the possible awkwardness that could exist if a new R doesn't pan out. You are too focused on your future happiness when you think that way. You need to pay more attention to finding happiness in the present, not protecting your future self from embarassment.

There is definitely some truth to be found in those bits of popular culture, like sitcoms. I've never really dated before either. But I'm looking forward to it, and I also think that for grownups, sex before marriage is all right. However, I don't know if you actually have to have intercourse with somebody to know whether or not you have good sexual chemistry. If you ask me, it definitely doesn't hurt to be sure...

I'm also afraid of breaking up, a little. I don't want to hurt anyone, but I do think I can handle a little rejection after experiencing the ultimate rejection.

By the way, those TV shows are also very ridiculous, as I'm sure you realize. If you like somebody, then how they eat their dinner will not be such a big deal to you as it might be to George Costanza.

GC

Yeah. But what if she has "man-hands" GC???? Would you date someone with man hands????

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Sorry.

yeah, i know the shows are pretty ridiculous and not very realistic but just watching them now at this stage in my life just made me think more about things that could happen to me.

i have a question for you, i don't know, maybe not a question but i don't know that i would necessarily be sad if i saw my H cry. does that make me a bad person? i don't think it does. but honestly, so what if he cries, he did this to himself and how can i feel sorry for that. i have been very careful for the words that i choose to say to my H (via email). i don't say i'm sorry for anything. for instance, why should i be sorry for him being out of work and school due to the storms? of course he's back at work and school now but you know what i mean? what about what i've been through this past year? i don't want to sound pathetic but i just don't see how the losses he has suffered compare to what i've gone through.

i'm even careful about saying "i'm glad" and "i'm happy" for you to my H. i just don't have that in me right now. i don't hate him but when he said he was back in school i just said "good luck in school" versus I'm glad you are back in school and hope it goes well. you know what i mean? he keeps saying he hopes i'm well. because i don't say the same back am i sounding really cold? i don't know, it's hard to know just how to act (say actually). i've tried to put in the messages things here and there to lighten things up but i think anything more then that would just make my H believe that I haven't let him go. i have let him go. i just haven't let go of the belief that if we worked on things together we could have a marriage better than it was before.

maybe it's really just the relational differences between our situations. i'm finding out more and more just how very little i knew my H and how the past 4 or 5 years we just really existed. except for when we were engaged and the first few years we were married i've never considered my H my best friend, i just didn't have one, not even a girlfriend and of course this is very detrimental to a M. it seems like you and sparrow were very good friends so that of course makes things different.

since i first posted my reply above, i've thought about future relationships more and i have tried to come to terms that i just can't be afraid to not try or not do anything. afterall, in some way isn't that what i'm asking my H to do? take a chance on getting to know me again and know that the changes i have made are permanent and not just to win my H back. maybe you can't compare the two. but basically i just shouldn't be afraid at least i know what i know now, right?

RR, w/r/t dating, if you never let fear guide your actions, you're in good shape. If you're trying to decide whether to do something, and the only "con" is that you might be embarrassed or disappointed or whatever, that con is worth zip. Nothing.

I think it's fine that we don't wish our WS happiness right now, but for me at least this is not a selfish or spiteful wish. I want my WW to hurt because it might help her discover that she will not be happy if she tries to make her affair a permanent relationship. I want her to learn that hurting people is never a way to find happiness. I believe so completely in this idea that my wish for her to suffer as long as her A continues is a hope for her to learn these things that I believe in.

Is this presumptious of me, to think I know what my WW needs to be happy? Sure. So sue me. It's what I believe.

GC

yes, very well said and very insightful. i could probably safely say that i know this 21 yr old college student OW who so casually enterd into a R w/a MM is going to hurt my H some day. he says that he thinks about what he's doing and if he will regret it all the time. but i think he's at the point where he's more willing to take that risk on it not working out between them then he is willing to take a risk on us. i realize more than ever what my H needs and if i hadn't gone through the hurt and hard lessons that i have gone through then i may have never realized those things either. so i would agree w/you that our WS experiencing some hurt during this is necessary for them to learn. i still believe that my H is a good person right now and has many good things about him but right now in this alien-snatched state the first thing that stands out is the A.

maybe i'm just still fearful in general that H will not realize things until after they are M and then it will truly be too late for me. if they were to get M, that's it. i'm just not real optimistic that my H would wait to marry this girl once we are D'd and i just don't know how i will "be" at that time. part of that is not knowing what the future holds and there's absolutely nothing i can do about that. i don't even know how i would even know what's going on w/them after the D since i don't live in the same state and don't have any mutual friends that both of us stay in contact with in that area.

maybe the truth is that i'm just now starting to really fathom and understand what it is to be starved for affection and the absence of the human touch from someone of the opposite sex. well, i'm starting to sound real pathetic so i better go.