SD posed the following question...

"the question that has never been answered by any of the FWS's here, is HOW are they able to forsake all that is good and right in their life, for the OP. Even though their M might not even be good, what allows them to pack their grey matter and move into the FOG. No one seems to understand that, and no BS or WS has articulated that so that I can understand it. Many other BS here have the same question. How do you get so caught up in "illicit feelings" that all that you do is "justifiable" in the affair, and how can you forsake your own family, children, friends, etc. so you can "have" the OP."

Hmmmm, it's probably safe to say that many factors contribute to what we refer to as an "unhappy" marriage, but the common element I see displayed by WSs is...A FEELING OF ENTITLEMENT! Once they've adopted that "mind set" everything is justifiable.

Any other thoughts?

Yep - it is some kind of feeling of entitlement. But is has something to do with brain chemistry - just like a drug addict that gives up everything for their high.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Ron53:
<strong> SD posed the following question...

"the question that has never been answered by any of the FWS's here, is HOW are they able to forsake all that is good and right in their life, for the OP. Even though their M might not even be good, what allows them to pack their grey matter and move into the FOG. No one seems to understand that, and no BS or WS has articulated that so that I can understand it. Many other BS here have the same question. How do you get so caught up in "illicit feelings" that all that you do is "justifiable" in the affair, and how can you forsake your own family, children, friends, etc. so you can "have" the OP."

Hmmmm, it's probably safe to say that many factors contribute to what we refer to as an "unhappy" marriage, but the common element I see displayed by WSs is...A FEELING OF ENTITLEMENT! Once they've adopted that "mind set" everything is justifiable.

Any other thoughts? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm SO glad you moved this to a new post. It is a question that definitely deserves an answer.

Here's mine.

I'm going to give you a bit of background. I had two affairs. Yech...

Both of them were with friend of my H and myself-both men were married. I liked very much one of the W's- and the other one not at all. The affairs were not at the same time, one followed the other. I feel like a complete and total slut and ***** (sorry for the foul language) writing this, but I can't sugarcoat my feelings- or what happened.)

The background? We were with these other couples all weekend every weekend. We were all in our early to mid 20's- no kids. We HABITUALLY drank too much, slept at each others houses, played strip poker, went skinny dipping etc etc. My H regularly went to strip clubs with the guys. One evening I caught my H being *entertained* by one of the wives nude dancing for him.

This sounds so utterly repulsive, but I think that the behavior on all parts was attributable to the fact that none of us put up adequate boundaries. On my own part, I was flattered by the attention given to me by the OM, and a bit shocked when he expressed more for me then friendship. It progressed from there (both times.) The rationalization/justification in myt mind was that *this was different*- that we all were so close- that H wouldn't actually be upset with what was going on considering that he encouraged me to strip - playing cards or swimming (yes, I was usually the hold out wanting to do either.) How FOGGY I was.... I think throughout this entire few years my fog just grew and grew....which enabled me to engage in these A's...

Ick. Yuck. Writing this just makes me feel well...dirty. We all were in a bad place- myself more then others, it is true. To this day, I have extreme feelings of guilt, remorse and sadness that I could so betray - not only my H- but my friend. The wife of the second OM was a friend, and I still can hardly believe what I did. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I have grown in many ways since that time, but my actions are horrific in my mind. And always will be.

This was very hard to write and I don't know if I answered anything. Please don't slaughter me....

Dear Sadfww,
anyone who would want to slaughter you for being totally honest and repentive will have to deal with ME <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> !! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

((((Sadfww))))

Dear Ron,

I have wondered about this too. We're not talking about people who are generally abusive, selfish, indifferent to other people's feelings. We are talking about good people who make stupid and selfish choices.

I think the fog it is a "safety valve" of the mind to justify things that are normally not justifiable to us. Like when we steal candy when we know our mother will be angry if she finds out. We'll think "it will be ok as long as she doesn't find out". Or we refuse to see the harm in eating a few cookies before dinner. We "revolt" to this "injustice", yet we will be deeply ashamed when caught. It's the same weird, foggy thinking.

I think it occurs when we are not mature enough to do things out of real, mature, unconditional love - we simply do them because we think we are "supposed" to them to be a "good" boy/girl. When we get the opportunity to something that we actually want to do, even though it's "bad", we refer to that same logic - what they don't know, won't hurt them. I need to eat a few cookies, what's the harm in that? No-one will get hurt. I need someone to tell me I'm special, I need that rush of making love, I need... some sort of cookie.

I think this sort of thinking is part of the ego-based thinking. The me-me-me-me thinking. Most of us do that most of the time. We are "good" to get what we want (the Givers) or we are "bad" to get what we want (the Takers). Both manipulate the others to get attention/favors/cookies. We will even be "good" to get the ultimate cookie - a place in heaven.

But when we go past this ego-based thinking, we realise that there is more to life than this. That there is something called unconditional love. Such love isn't asking for "payback" for "all we have done". When we are in a good place with ourselves, when we feel strong and loving, we are able to reach this feeling of unconditional love. We don't want to steal any cookies. We don't need any stolen cookies. We will enjoy any cookies that life brings us <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> but we'll make sure no-one will be hurt or that we're not eating someone else's cookies <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> .

And the weird thing is.. when in that ego-thinking, we have so little cookies, or none, so that we'll go out and steal some.. yet when in this feeling of unconditional love we'll find so many cookies we'll even give them away to others.

How to get there? By loving yourself.. by doing what you need to do for others.. It's a long and slow process but it's worth it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Ron53:
<strong> SD posed the following question...

"the question that has never been answered by any of the FWS's here, is HOW are they able to forsake all that is good and right in their life, for the OP. Even though their M might not even be good, what allows them to pack their grey matter and move into the FOG. No one seems to understand that, and no BS or WS has articulated that so that I can understand it. Many other BS here have the same question. How do you get so caught up in "illicit feelings" that all that you do is "justifiable" in the affair, and how can you forsake your own family, children, friends, etc. so you can "have" the OP."

Hmmmm, it's probably safe to say that many factors contribute to what we refer to as an "unhappy" marriage, but the common element I see displayed by WSs is...A FEELING OF ENTITLEMENT! Once they've adopted that "mind set" everything is justifiable.

Any other thoughts? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">bump- I think this one is worthy of more comment.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hmmmm, it's probably safe to say that many factors contribute to what we refer to as an "unhappy" marriage, but the common element I see displayed by WSs is...A FEELING OF ENTITLEMENT! Once they've adopted that "mind set" everything is justifiable. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is very true. A feeling of entitlement to something for yourself can also come from a feeling that you have already given your S/your job/your kids/the world so much of yourself, maybe even "too" much of yourself... That somehow, in your mind, you are 'owed' something. I'm in no way condoning this - its foggy thinking, since its an individual's choice to give too much of themselves. There are also MANY other options for dealing with feelings of depletion, options which cause no one else any pain.

On another relationship website it said that those people who are capable of giving the most are also capable of the most selfishness. I think thats true.