Hi again,

You really get me to thinking - and you know, there is probably not a lot of NEW things to talk about.

Posting on MB
I understand your reasons both for posting and also for worrying about posting. If you are not going to post, you need another outlet for yourself. IC will help, but it's more than that with you. With your mother no longer available for 2 way conversations, you need a friend you can talk to when you NEED to talk.
I keep hoping it will be H, but it sounds like there is too much fear on your part, and to little understanding on his. I don't think he understands just talking. I know it is a stretch for me sometimes - and I have been reading here for three years. If you can talk, it really helps you deal with the doubtful feelings that come to you. I also believe that in the process of explaining your feelings to someone, you are able to organize your thoughts and actually determine many of the best solutions on your own.

I suggest you find that outlet before you leave this one - however you need to do what you think is best.

I worry that we drag you back. If it would help, I can simply stop posting to you. Don't feel bad about doing what is best for you, never, never feel bad about making choices that will help your long term relationship with your H.

Please don't worry about what others think, do what YOU THINK IS BEST.


H's emotional detachment
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do think it is partly he was emotionally disconnected from me, like Trix said - instinctively I feel that - and that I "stubbed my toe" on a hidden boulder by talking about it...these are the things that are lying in wait because we have never talked about his EAs...so I guess I see this as part of recovery...sometimes very painful, but necessary...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with this. He wasn't showing love back then - that is a painful truth. I am trying to separate then from now. He shows care and concern better now.

When you described his personality, I cringed. It sounded like a real "me first" kind of person. I'm still trying to understand how all of your descriptions fit together. You understand (and I also, which is why I am talking about it) that our outlook on any given day depends more on how we are doing, than on how we are treated by our spouse. However, over time, the way they treat us will either fill our $LB, or bankrupt it. I worry that yours is declining, and headed for bankruptcy.

It seems to me that you want so badly for things to be good between the two of you, but you can't make deposits for him, no matter how hard you try.

This is in reference to your conversation with him about "auntie."
He did try to take time to talk it through with me, but being a Martian and not understanding Venusians, he thought this was stupid, and he did it with anger and contempt....

When you can talk to your spouse about things like this, even when one gets emotional, then there is progress. When he does it with anger, and contempt, the withdrawls continue.......even if you understand what is happening, they still continue.

From where I sit, it looks like you are fighting with yourself over this - trying to love him no matter what.

I am trying hard to work on myself...and it is a slow process....that's all I can do....

I think you have gone as far as you can go without his help. When I came to MB, I realized I couldn't change my W, only me. It is good that you understand that about you.

I also realized that my changes would affect my W, and that she would respond over time. It took two years, but she did, and we have a wonderful relationship. Not with out bumps, and bruises, but it is far better than it has ever been. She knows that my aim, my most important goal in life is to be partner to her. She knows that.

You don't have that yet, and you need it.

If you were to tell me right now that there has been enough progress to keep you going, and that you believe things will be OK, I would quit talking about this, but I don't know if you can say that.

I believe you have reached the point in your personal recovery where you need to have his help with your marital recovery. Up to this point, he has made progress as a result of you doing thing differently. You made changes, he responded by feeling closer, and helping in some ways. I thinking you are looking for ACTIVE help from him, and that the..........whats the right word here?......troubled feelings? Despair? Anger/fear?......... you are feeling won't go away until you get that kind of help from him.

Once I thought the best help would be MC, but I had no idea he could/would react with such total malice. Knowing that, and hearing you describe his personality causes me to worry all over again.

What do to next?

I don't' have an answer for you. I think the bottom line is that you have come a long way, and now you need his help and you fear that you won't ever get it.

Your feelings?
You are a smart gal, give me your opinion -
Do you have a feel for making this work? Or are you worried about what else you can do?

I don't blame you for not having sexual feelings for him. I am to the point where I understand my W a lot better, and It is amazing to me that she did as well as she did for as long as she did.
I DO NOT understand why your H doesn't seem attracted to you - unless he is getting signals from your body language, and posture that throw him off. Those things are hard to hide, even if you want to.

During his EA(s) you describe him as being more angry, and cold. It seems that he is more willing to talk, and that he shows more concern for your feelings now, so it isn't adding up for me that he doesn't have sexual feelings for you. That's why I suggest you asking.


Wrap up

I am glad that you are doing better. I am not sure why I had so much concern a few weeks ago for you, and your family. It actually scared me - and that doesn't happen very much these days.

I was almost tempted to quote you where you said you were feeling better and say something like "you can't fool me, I know you still worry deep down inside."

That isn't the best way - and I tried to explain my fears to you in a better way.

I still suggest you ask him point blank about scheduling some intimate time. If nothing else, it will tell you how he feels.

I would like to know if it is more you fearing rejection, or you worrying if you can get in the mood - that holds you back from asking him. That would also tell you something.

I still have a lot of hope for your family. All us can change and improve - and your H can too. I'll be praying for all of you.

SS

<small>[ November 07, 2004, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

OK, I've only got a few minutes here - my phone line has been down and the only place I've had to post has been at work, where I've been really busy....

Things got intimate last night...I feel OK about how I managed to draw him out of himself....

he seems really shy right now....but affectionate....

I guess I worry because before his EAs and all the betrayal and conflict, I accepted him the way he was....but I didn't doubt him....if he was distant, I put it down to his personality, his work, his personal problems....

Now when he is distant, I immediately wonder if it's because he had found someone else, and he is lying to me....

But things seem to be going OK....just have to persevere doing the things that work and being patient....

I really appreciate the long response, ss and I share a lot of your concerns.....and there are specific things you said that I want to respond to, so I will come back to do that....

Keeping my spirits up....

LIR

<small>[ November 12, 2004, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

OK, I've only got a few minutes here - my phone line has been down and the only place I've had to post has been at work, where I've been really busy....

Again, only post when you can, and if you think you should. I worry about that -

Things got intimate last night...I feel OK about how I managed to draw him out of himself....

With the lack of any more info, I'll take this as good.

he seems really shy right now....but affectionate....

Shy is a word I wouldn't think used in connection with him. Not sure why I think that, but then - two EA/s.
I find this interresting. I can think of some reasons, and they have to do with fear of rejection on his part. This suggestion comes from personal experiance. I have no reason to suggest it from anything you have said.

I guess I worry because before his EAs and all the betrayal and conflict, I accepted him the way he was....but I didn't doubt him....if he was distant, I put it down to his personality, his work, his personal problems....

Now when he is distant, I immediately wonder if it's because he had found someone else, and he is lying to me....

He needs to know your feelings on this. Trust has to be earned, it doesn't come any other way. Problem - no good way to get it across in a way he will understand.
Hmmm.........
Maybe this -
Takola on trust

If he doesn't know how you feel, he can't do anythign about it, and you won't know if he can't do anyting, or if he won't do anything.

But things seem to be going OK....just have to persevere doing the things that work and being patient....

OK, I agree - Glad you found things that work. Hope you did. You did, didn't you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I really appreciate the long response, ss and I share a lot of your concerns.....and there are specific things you said that I want to respond to, so I will come back to do that....

Keeping my spirits up....

Glad your spirits are up.
I have some concern that I pull you back when you you feel it best to take some time off. Your call.


That last big post was hard for me. Normally, I don't have such a hard time posting. If you feel I am off base, please tell me. I don't pretend to know everything.

SS

<small>[ November 12, 2004, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

OK, I have a few minutes - it is really hard to post - with building works going on in my house, the computer is in the boys bedroom. The times H isn't home are usually the weekends, when YS is home - before, I would post after he was in bed - now that's not possible. Also our phone line was out of order for a few days - oh, well....keep on keepin on and try not to let it get to you....its also winter....that is definitely a factor in my outlook, but I try to be objective about that.

I appreciate that that big post was long and took you a lot of time, ss - I just want you to know I appreciate it. Sometimes my answers are a lot shorter than I wish the could be....

I take your point that I should get some other support lined up before I stop posting here, even though I post only occasionally now....you're right...I still need support, in myself....

I worry that we drag you back. If it would help, I can simply stop posting to you.

You don't drag me back. It's not you that drags me back. It's situations that I am afraid of dealing with on this end, where I am afraid of things getting confrontational...I try to deal with things better, now that I have learned some skills and learned more self-control here at MB....

Once I make a move towards face-to-face counselling, I will probably stop posting here for awhile....but I will come back later to let you know how I am doing....

I think I am starting to fight my own battle now...a lot of it is with myself....and my own fears.....and less to do with H.

I think H may have worked through as much as he reasonably can at this point. We decided to stay together, and I think we are both reasonably happy with that, as far as it goes...we warded off disaster and spared our children further agony....whether or not we really are able to meet each other's needs as the two people we now are is another question....

It would be good if H could get on board with MB concepts or Mars/Venus concepts, and some of the time he makes positive noises, but a lot of the time, he is focused on his own world of performing, working, taking care of the boys....

In myself, I feel like I am making slow progress at healing from the pain of my parents broken marriage...it is slow, but maybe it is happening a little....

I contacted by e-mail a woman who was like my 2nd mother, when we were all kids....her family and our family were friends....she knew and loved us all, was explicitly involved in my parents divorce, was the only person who would testify for my mother....we all had a unique relationship, but I haven't seen or spoken to her since I was 19. I've had several e-mails with her and it is like finding a long-lost mother - she still loves me, and shares my feelings, understands more than anyone the pressures on my parents...she's a link to my past, from which I feel so cut-off in my present life....talking to her has had a healing effect to a certain extent....

Strangely enough, she and her H are about to celebrate 50 years of marriage. They had the most "open" marriage imaginable....really....I'm not kidding....whether or not they regret it, I don't know....but I find it very moving that they are still together and supporting each other after 50 years. Her H went back to church several years ago, and even though she doesn't feel she can participate fully, she goes with him and prays by his side.

Please don't worry about what others think, do what YOU THINK IS BEST.

Don't worry, I will. A lot of people didn't think it was best for me to stay with H, but I have. It's best for the boys, so far, and things have "shaken down" to something we can deal with so far.

When you described his personality, I cringed. It sounded like a real "me first" kind of person. I'm still trying to understand how all of your descriptions fit together. You understand (and I also, which is why I am talking about it) that our outlook on any given day depends more on how we are doing, than on how we are treated by our spouse. However, over time, the way they treat us will either fill our $LB, or bankrupt it. I worry that yours is declining, and headed for bankruptcy.

Well, reading this, I feel uncomfortable, because I always feel that if I am entirely honest about H, he doesn't come out looking very well to other people. He can be very selfish...it's part of his 'artist temperament'....he can also be arrogant...he would be very hurt if he thought I really believed that, but it's true...but it doesn't mean he isn't loveable...he is good at what he does...exceptionally good at what he does and I admire him for it....he can be hard to relate to, but he can be very giving, too - it's kind of like, when he is trying to be giving, he will throw things at you (metaphorically), like a toddler when they throw a book at you - no control over their own exuberance.....he is a complex person...believe me, I haven't got him figured out yet, and for the most part, I am now standing back and leaving him alone to do his thing....not interfere....trying to get on with my own life....

Filling my LB - hmmmm...don't know about this one...I'm sure my LB was already totally bankrupt....so the fact that it has anything in it at this point is a real plus....being as good as he was over my mom's death earned him a lot of credit on account....showing interest in my feelings...showing interest in me fills my LB...he does that sometimes...maybe keeps me hooked...I'm sure he cares....but I'd say, objectively, we are still not back "in love" with each other....working on it, though....

It seems to me that you want so badly for things to be good between the two of you, but you can't make deposits for him, no matter how hard you try.

Sometimes this is true...and I accept that's more him than me. Like yesterday he went all the way to London to try to find a good deal on a television...he found what he wanted, but had to order it....when he came back, I said "I'm sorry you ended up wasting your whole day." I was being sympathetic - normally that would have got some kind of affirmative response. This time he reacted negatively...he recoiled and said I didn't have to be so negative.....I did wonder (still do) why he had to go all the way to London to check out televisions....(suspicious?)...no evidence of a long lunch, though...only sandwich wrappings in a bag....this is the kind of thing he can do....walk all over town looking for the best deal on a video, etc....so I guess I will trust him on this one....

This is in reference to your conversation with him about "auntie."
[b] He did try to take time to talk it through with me, but being a Martian and not understanding Venusians, he thought this was stupid, and he did it with anger and contempt....

When you can talk to your spouse about things like this, even when one gets emotional, then there is progress. When he does it with anger, and contempt, the withdrawls continue.......even if you understand what is happening, they still continue.

From where I sit, it looks like you are fighting with yourself over this - trying to love him no matter what.[/b]

True. It did make withdrawals from my LB...but staying together and giving it time to blow over seems to help mend things a little...having said that...I had a clear dream last night...I am going to talk to H about it....it was about my father....and in it, my father was not an "angry" father - *I* was angry, but my father did not retaliate against me - I woke up with the realization that this was what my father SHOULD have been like - I had an experience in my dream of what I am missing - someone who can listen to my anger and pain and not retaliate against me for it - in my dream, my father had a strength in him that was like a clear, running stream of cool water - later I thought maybe it was not my "father", but my Father, and this is what Fatherhood really is all about....

So today I have felt like the cloudy haze over me has cleared a little....even if you get that experience only in a dream, it is still there....

I also realized that I have married a man just like my own father...a man who can't take my anger and hurt and retaliates against me when it come out.....I am going to talk to H about this and see where we go.....

I am trying hard to work on myself...and it is a slow process....that's all I can do....

This is what I mean...I think I am making progress inside, but it is my journey...I have to make it....

I think you have gone as far as you can go without his help.

I think I have gone as far as I can go WITH HIM without his help.


When I came to MB, I realized I couldn't change my W, only me.
That's where I am at right now.

I also realized that my changes would affect my W, and that she would respond over time.

H has definitely responded positively, considering where we came from. How long that process will continue, I can't predict.

If you were to tell me right now that there has been enough progress to keep you going, and that you believe things will be OK, I would quit talking about this, but I don't know if you can say that.

That's true. You do know me too well.

I believe you have reached the point in your personal recovery where you need to have his help with your marital recovery. Up to this point, he has made progress as a result of you doing thing differently. You made changes, he responded by feeling closer, and helping in some ways. I thinking you are looking for ACTIVE help from him, and that the..........whats the right word here?......troubled feelings? Despair? Anger/fear?......... you are feeling won't go away until you get that kind of help from him.

True. Deep inside.

Once I thought the best help would be MC, but I had no idea he could/would react with such total malice. Knowing that, and hearing you describe his personality causes me to worry all over again.

Do you really think total malice? I don't think he would see it that way. I think he would call it injured pride, injured feelings. I called it his perceptions getting seriously skewed, which scared me. He would think my talking to you would be evidence of my own pathology, which is one reason why I feel it is best to go to face-to-face counselling now....

I don't' have an answer for you. I think the bottom line is that you have come a long way, and now you need his help and you fear that you won't ever get it.

Right. I'm thinking maybe I will have more of a chance of getting it if he sees me actively working on myself through face-to-face counselling....he'd be willing to talk through things if he approved of the kind of help I'm getting....sounds lame when I put it that way, doesn't it?

You are a smart gal, give me your opinion -
Do you have a feel for making this work? Or are you worried about what else you can do?

Not sure what else I can do, and not sure that I have any emotional energy left. Kinda feeling like its time to concentrate on me...on getting that degree, on starting to write....time to stop worrying about him....as long as he behaves himself I can take it....

I don't blame you for not having sexual feelings for him.

Hard to have sexual feelings for someone you have a hard time trusting and are still a little afraid of. Then again, I don't have sexual feelings for anyone else, either and would run a mile if I did.

I DO NOT understand why your H doesn't seem attracted to you - unless he is getting signals from your body language, and posture that throw him off. Those things are hard to hide, even if you want to.

I took your point and worked on it this week, trying to send him signals that I was interested, and that I found him attractive, and asking in the right way (carefully) if there was anything wrong....results were positive...so I felt I did OK...it was nice....made me feel closer to him

I am glad that you are doing better. I am not sure why I had so much concern a few weeks ago for you, and your family. It actually scared me - and that doesn't happen very much these days.
Not sure why either...maybe I needed prayers without my knowing it...and they worked.

I still have a lot of hope for your family. All us can change and improve - and your H can too. I'll be praying for all of you.

I do, too - still have hope, and haven't stopped praying. You've been a great friend, ss. I'm grateful to you for your dedication. I know you are here to help and I see a lot of people who need help. I am glad you are posting to svb1 - she is one of the people I check up on and have done, since she started here....I am glad you are making her part of your mission here...she needs someone...but `I worry more about her H than I did about mine in some strange way...I worry he really IS "using" her...also, that he really was having some kind of physical infidelity....

What I am saying is I know others need you....please don't feel guilty about not coming back to me....when I need you....I'll SCREAM - don't worry!!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Take care,
LIR

Just a little update - things with H seem to be going well - he is affectionate, and when he is away, calls me to talk, even if it is late at night.

And some really good news - my new boss has managed to get my employer to agree to fund the first module of my MA course. Yay! So I am hoping to be able to start my course in April. My mom's insurance left me just enough money to almost get through the course, and I know that's what she would have wanted me to do with it, so it looks like I can finally get started down the road to financial independence. My H is enthusiastic and told me he "had some money, too and we would find the money for me to finish" - another sign of his being supportive. My job under my new boss has become very satisfying and I'm enjoying learning so much from her.

Just thought you would like to hear this.

We also had a very nice Thanksgiving with some friends here - it was great to celebrate Thanksgiving again, as a family.

God bless,
LIR