I have been thinking about this all morning.

We are all astonished the way our spouses can lie and cheat so blatantly, and how they justify it to themselves.

I think that as long as it is a secret, not in the open , they are

a) protecting themselves from consequences (and maybe telling themselves that they are protecting us)

and b) that they don't have to deal with coming up with valid excuses for their behavior.

But once the lid is off, it is a marvel how they twist things around to make themselves "not guilty".

They have to find a way to justify their wrongdoing. And at bottom, yes, they know that what they are doing is wrong- for the simple reason that if it were done to them they would be crying 'foul'.

I think this applies across the board- not ony in adultery, but wrongdoing of any sort.

I think that when people are hurt, or their needs are not being met, temptation arises to have their needs met in some unrighteous way, that will cause harm to others.

But we don't want to look at that. We just want to have our needs met right now, at any cost.

Maybe in my husbands case, it is exaggerated:

He was badly hurt , rejected and treated unjustly at a young age.

So he feels entitled to do whatever he wants to have his needs met.

He tries to convince himself that he is justified; that the rules don't apply to him- that its ont okay for others to steal from him , or mistreat him, but its okay for him to do it to others

brb

So what is the alternative?

We can respond by perpetuating evil (by cheating, lying etc..)...

...or we can choose to counter it by doing what Jesus said- by forgiving them and responding with kindness, and trusting God to work it out.


For years I have pleaded with my husband to forgive the people who hurt him.

But I understand now why it is so hard; his whole survival has depended for so long on avoiding further hurt , that it has become his nature.

If he were to forgive them, he would no longer be able to justify his wrongdoing. His house of cards would crash. He would have to find some other way to survive.

Unless he is able to trust in some higher power to care for him, to bring about justice; he is left with no alternative.

There is no middle ground; either we choose wrong or we choose to trust and obey God.

When our spouses 'rewrite history', they are just trying to look for a loophole, a way to say that what they are doing is not really wrong, that they are actually entitled.

All this fogtalk is them starting to actually believe their own lie. It is selfdeception borne of self pity and the desire to have their needs met in an illicit way.

To admit otherwise , would be to say that they are wrong, and then they would have to stop. What they don't see is that they are not just huring others, but they are getting in the way of their own happiness, and in the end they gain nothing.

How is it that we can blind ourselves to such an extent?

It would be so much simpler to just do what God says , to 'do as we wish to be done by'...and leave the outcome in Gods hands.

The good news, to my mind, is that no matter how far we go astray, (maybe the farther we go astray), it leads to destruction...unhappiness...which even in the interests of self will cause us to rethink our path.


And that we can step off and repent, change our ways and set off in a new direction at any point.

And thank God he has given us light , to show the blind the truth, and to show those who are deceiving themselves that they are blind.

I am trusting today that in His love , God will allow the right amount of consequences in my husbands life.

I am not imposing them, (plan B-wise), but I am not interfering with my husbands free will either.

As, (I think it was Ruth Graham who said) It is my job to love him , and Gods job to change him.

I just pray that God is able to do the job without such severe consequences that will prevent us from being able to start fresh. So many years have been wasted already.

But the fog is very thick.

Amen,

My wife is under that fog of confusion and may be just starting to see truth in small doses due to pastoral counselling and the work of God.


I believe that God not only wants our marriages to be healthy but that he is jealous over those who belong to him but have fallen prey to the schemes of the enemy.

I pray with you today that God would bring truth to our spouses, that he would break the fog of confusion and deception, that they would receive grace to see themselves and the situation they are in, in the light of God and as he sees it.

I pray that His kingdom would come and His will would be done in their lives that they may be reconciled even unto Him. I pray that they would become the people He has called them to be and that He predestined them to be.

Father I pray that You would do this for Your own pleasure and for the glory of Your name, that people would see and rejoice in the power of Your grace, mercy, and transforming love.

amen

Amen,

My wife is under that fog of confusion and may be just starting to see truth in small doses due to pastoral counselling and the work of God.


I believe that God not only wants our marriages to be healthy but that he is jealous over those who belong to him but have fallen prey to the schemes of the enemy.

I pray with you today that God would bring truth to our spouses, that he would break the fog of confusion and deception, that they would receive grace to see themselves and the situation they are in, in the light of God and as he sees it.

I pray that His kingdom would come and His will would be done in their lives that they may be reconciled even unto Him. I pray that they would become the people He has called them to be and that He predestined them to be.

Father I pray that You would do this for Your own pleasure and for the glory of Your name, that people would see and rejoice in the power of Your grace, mercy, and transforming love.

amen

shul

It is your fog that is more pertinent...

you repeated pattern of excusing his current choices on "bad things" in the past...

you always say this about him..
always...

and this...
or we can choose to counter it by doing what Jesus said- by forgiving them and responding with kindness, and trusting God to work it out.

forgiveness has meaning and is granted when the person stop the chaos...OR others choose to no longer be subjected to it and hold no malace towards the continued perpertrator...

God will allow the right amount of consequences in my husbands life.

I am not imposing them, (plan B-wise), but I am not interfering with my husbands free will either.

I whole heartedly believe that sometimes it is God that guides us to impose consequances on those in our lives that are lost...

I believe God guides and gives us strength to do such things...

Shul..it remains my opninion that it is your fog that is thick..

has he established weekly visitation with his daughter...or does he continue to choose to treat her so badly...and so unimportant in his life...that he can't spend time with her on a consistant basis...
yet do all those other soul searching things that get him no where..

ARK

I hope that you are all right. I have been praying constantly that God will soften my husband's heart and make him see that his family is the most important thing in the world, and that he needs to be with us, and that I love him more than life itself.

I also pray that God will take some of this pain I'm enduring, I know that he won't give me a bigger burden than I can handle, but it's definitely pushing the envelope at this point. Maybe it will make me a stronger person. Maybe this is my punishment for being out of God's good graces for so very long, maybe this is my wake up call.....I can't do anything but love my husband, he's the man that I chose to spend the rest of my life with, we promised to love each other in good times and bad, in front of all our families and before god....and what God has joined together, let no man(or woman) put asunder.

So I love him unconditionally...my love for him knows no boundaries, so I can only hope that by praying and by setting the example that he is loved, that my love, with God's help will prevail.

I can't help but think of a Garth Brooks song - Unanswered Prayers.....That just because he doesn't answer doesn't mean he don't care.....some of God's greatest gifts are unanswered prayers. I hope this isn't the case with my marriage, that my prayers are going to go unanswered because he has some other purpose for me, I have to believe that he doesn't want me to hurt like I am, and that he will help me make it through until he can bring my husband around.

-Caren

Ark,

What do you propose that I do differently?

How shall I make him want to spend time with his daughter?

Shul

{{{Caren}}}

I don't know your situation but I know that God loves you and that he hears prayer.

And you can trust him to know what to do with your husband.

Shul

What I did when my daughter was a baby was to tell her dad that he was going to be a dad 100%, in every sense of the word or I was going to see to it that he never saw her again, and that I would find someone who would be a dad to her, if he wasn't willing. All or nothing. Her head was not going to be screwed up by him and of that he knew I meant business.

I used to march right up on stage where he was playing and DEMAND that he give me money for milk or diapers or whatever. I was his worst nightmare for a few months, but he ended up bonding with her and now we have 50/50 custody and she has her dad. One time I followed him and OW in my car with my baby in car seat until he finally pulled over. I then said I am going out and you are watching your daughter, otherwise I will follow you all night. He never put a restraining order on me either. He finally got the picture. I am not with him but he is the best dad I could hope for.

Ark is right Shul, you are in the fog. You are putting you relationship with her dad before DD's relationship with her dad, when it is your job to see that your DD has what she needs for a healthy, happy life, and that means a good dad.

NO dad is better than a horribly neglectful, half assed dad.

I'm sorry, but I keep reading Arks post to you and keep hoping that they sink in.

Your DD will spend her entire life trying to win the love and time of her dad through whatever means she can, if you don't do somthing to change his relationship with her. And you can.

Be strong, be a mother bear doing what is best for her cub.

<small>[ October 12, 2004, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: weaver ]</small>

shul

What do you propose that I do differently?How shall I make him want to spend time with his daughter?

you can't make him do anything...

here are my grave concerns....

and my opinions...and that's all they are..

but you spend way to much time excusing his behavior....
and you spend way to much time with him....without including your daughter in each and every contact....

in my opinion every single conversation should be focused on her and what she needs...
my fear is that she is at great risk in seeing her father CHOOSE NOT to see her
CHOOSE NOT to spend time with her....

and this hurts her and will confuse her on what role fathers should play in their childrens lives...

and men in general...she will dismiss her husband...because he has been a dissmissive force in her life...and that is what she knows....

and even more alarming is if and when she see YOU spending time with him...when he CHOOSES not to spend time with her...to her it is YOU as well CHOOSING HIM over her...

how will she learn the importance of a good man and good father if all she sees is a father who chooses others and even her mother over her over and over again.....

the void he creates will be one she will try to fill the wrong way...

and shul to be perfectly painfully honest...when you choose the route of being intimate with him...while he continues to ditch his daughter...it is in his mind you condoning that choice....

the time he spends with you in bed...could and should be time he spends with his daughter....

if I were you I would protect my daughter from him.....while at the same time invite him to be with her over and over and over again...

that every encounter
every conversation is about him spending time with his daughter...

invite him for dinner...with his daughter...family time....

he can CHOOSE to come or not...
but that is the only type of invitation he should get...


daughter and i are going to a pumpkin farm...want to come...
daughter has ______________at school want to come...

daughter and I are going to the movies....want to come....

never let your daughter know that he was invited...
lots of positive reinforcement when he shows...soley through the positive thing it is for his daughter....

how dare he not set up visitation..what possible good excuse could he have for that..
how dare he go for weeks without talking or asking about her....how sad is that???

how dare he not financially assist his own child...


and more importantly why do you let him in your life....while he disregards hers???

why do you do that.....

his relationship with his daughter is seperate from his and yours..but his actions of accountability should be tied to your heart strings....

and each time he chooses to not see her and makes no effort to do so.....it should scream volumes to you....

shul I could go on and on...but do you understand what I am saying...cause if you don't then there is no need for me to do that....

and if he chooses not to be with her on a steady consistant force in her life...then you and she should cut him free...to his choice...

and you should find some positive role male figures that teach her the value of men and there roles as dads....

he stands to damage his own daughter...
you must stand to protect her....

ARK <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Ark,

This is what I have been doing all these months...the invitations are always about her- 'join us for a movie/supper/beach..etc'

The times when we were intimate was only after they had spent time together and she was in bed, asleep. We kept it private.

When he was here the other evening, they cuddled on the couch watching a movie like they used to and later there was a moment when she was going to bed, that he went to tuck her in , and he did his old ticklebedbugbite routine that he did every night when he was home, and I heard her giggling the way she used to...he has a way with her.

Thak you for reminding me about positive reinforcement. I guess I need to tell him that his time with her really makes a difference to her.


He has started to expess more of an interest in her wellbeing lately. He asked me the other day if I needed money for anything, and he has been doing some things at the house that previously he has neglected for years. I suspect he is starting to try to fix things in tangible ways.


As for making excuses for him, forgiveness is not excusing. I am not denying his behavior or excusing it, or condoning it. It is a choice that I am making. I don't want to end up like him- afraid to trust, afraid of being hurt, bitter, resentful, angry, incapable of intimacy. It is how I heal, Ark.

My daughter and I are coping. Understand that I have virtually lived as a single parent for much of the time over the years, while he was away working. So this is normal for us to not be around him for months at a time. The only difference is that he doesn't call every night, as he used to.

Visitation is on my terms now. He has to be invited to visit, invited to stay over. I also let him know that if he says he is coming to see her, he must show up and on time. We do not wait for him, as he found out. He is on time now.

I am moving forward in my life. When he is ready to repeat the marriage vows and mean them , he will be welcome to join us.


In the meantime, I am focusing my time and attention on my daughter and on my job, which has become increasingly challenging.

I am trying to make the best of this time while God deals with him. And it is becoming apparent that dealing with him, He is.

Compared to where he was two years ago, his life is a mess. Freedom had a price.

Shul