Sorry, I posted this in the Plan A/Plan B forum, where as I meant to post it here.

Greetings Everyone,

I have been reading more and more posts, and reviewing the articles on this website. I keep reading a lot about "fog" and "fog talk". Before I found this site, in the days before my WW made me move out (so that she could be with OM without my interference),I sensed in her that she still loved me, but it was buried under somehting, even though she swears up and down that she doesn't love me anymore.

Its that kind of talk that I have read about, in people's posts about "fog talk". I'm trying to figure out if my WW is talking the fog, or if she really is %100 out of love, and that there is no hope. She says things like "There is no hope for us", "I have searched my feelings, and I just don't feel it, no love for you. I care about you and your well being, but I just don't love you." "You should have thought about spending too much time on this or that, now its too late for us." "I just can't see us together, at all, in the forseeable future."

She never brings up the OM in conversation, even though she has admitted that he lives with her (right after she moved me out), admits that they "like each other", and told her father that she would probably wait for the OM, who is in jail on a probation violation. They also tried to blame me for the legal trouble that they are in, even though I am in another state at this time.

So does she love me, deep down somewhere? Should I follow these compelling feelings to try and save my marriage? I am so confused about the whole thing...this is her second A, not counting the relationship she was in while we were seperated once. It hurts so much, and I am compelled to make these attempts at a remote Plan A. But now and then I think why bother? Is it worth it? Can I ever trust her again? How, after all of the pain, can I still love her, and dream about her every night? I wish I could find the answers to this misery.

bump

Dear Dimmu,

from what you describe your WW seems to be someone who doesn't know how to deal with problems in a relationship. When she feels she is missing something etc. she looks for a man to "fall in love with", but it's very likely this next relationship will not work out either because she still doesn't know how to WORK on a relationship.

If you should get together with her again, if she will use you as a safety net in case it doesn't work out with this OM, I would seriously recommend going to counseling, together or seperately, because it's very likely she'll cheat on you again. It seems to be a way of life for her, moving from one relationship to another, possibly until things get "boring" or she is not getting all the flattery and compliments anymore that a woman gets at the beginning of a relationship.

I'm sorry you are going through all this. Take care of yourself!

Thank you for your reply, brownhair. What you say makes a lot of sense. It made me look back to the beginning of my R with my WW, and she did the same thing to someone else when she got with me. Maybe its karma that I am going through this. People that I know have been telling me that "A leopard never changes it's spots", and other comments like that. I truly feel the same way, that she doesn't know how to work on a relationship. Her dad told me that she was very self-centered and bullheaded since childhood, which of course affected how everyone in her life has dealt with her, including me.

I know that she has at least "tried" to stay with me. She ended her R she was having with an OM, while we were seperated for a year and a half once. But because she wasn't around for me to fulfill her EN (and thus my EN weren't being met), and because we started arguing all of the time because of it, she thinks she is out of love, and doesn't "want to try or pretend anymore".

I am still bringing up couple counseling, everytime I talk to her. She is against it, thinks it is pointless.

I wish I could just reach her...

Dimmu - Your WW is saying the exact same things to you that mine has been. Since your situation is fairly recent I would assume that it is 'fog talk' until she gives you reason to believe otherwise. I have been hearing the same crap for 5 months now along with constant D talk, but as much as she says she isn't in love with me anymore and as badly as she wants a D she hasn't pulled the trigger yet. I have just been letting her do her thing and I am being as nice as I possibly can to her.

Bringing up counseling and trying to reach her are fruitless ventures right now. She will not hear you, and will not be receptive. All you can do at this point if you want to try to save the M is to start a solid plan A.

I know how frustrating it can be. Personality-wise my WW sounds a lot like yours. Multiple A's, selfish and stubborn, etc. I don't know if she can change or if she will come back to me. But she hasn't filed for D either so I continue with my plan A.

Hello parkem1.

Sorry to hear that you, and so many others on here are in similar situations. I read so many similarities between a lot of people's different situations, that I am convinced that a lot of A's are a mental/emotional condition.

I think that my WW isn't wanting to rush into a divorce, even though she mentioned a few weeks ago she wanted one. I don't think, at least at this time, that it is because she wants to hold on to any part of our M. I was very vindictive with her after the first A, and with everyone who had thier part in enabling it. So, she thinks that these changes I have recently made are "sucking up", or "just temporary... I'll turn back into that person who was angry". So I think that she isn't rushing the D because of the past, and because of the legal troubles my W and the OM ran into recently, I have proof of infidelity (OM's probation officer stopped by the house after she made me move out, he wanted to see where OM was sleeping, W took P.O. to the bedroom).

My biggest problem right now, aside from trying to deal with the utter agony of it all, is trying to formulate a solid Plan A, while the WW and I are living 2 1/2hrs apart, and I can't tell if anything she says is true or false...

Also, good luck to you and everyone else with thier Plan A's. I wish you all the best. People who have never had this happen to them, or WS's who are in a thick fog just don't understand what we BS's are going through. Like my family...no support from them at all for any kind of Plan A. They hate my W now. MB, and the kind people on here, and my children are all I have now.

<small>[ October 13, 2004, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: Dimmu ]</small>

My biggest problem right now, aside from trying to deal with the utter agony of it all, is trying to formulate a solid Plan A, while the WW and I are living 2 1/2hrs apart, and I can't tell if anything she says is true or false...

I know the feeling. It is hard to plan A while separated. You just don't feel like there is even enough contact to make a difference. My WW have been separated for 5 months. The OM has the complete advantage at this point becuase she wants to talk to him and see him. I just have to make the best of the little bit of time I do get from her. And yeah, I know how you feel. I don't know what to believe that comes out of her mouth. Most of it seems like utter BS or 'fog' talk, but who knows.

Hang in there man. Take care of yourself. Don't get too wrapped up in the agony. Be the kind of guy she would regret leaving.

I wish I knew if anything I'm trying is working with my WW. Most of our conversations are the same. The only EN's she mentions needing is intimacy-which I can't even attempt to give to her if she's so far away. She may also not want it from me ever, if she is getting it from the OM (she says he is in jail on probation violation, but that could be a lie to spare me some anxiety). She also says she needs to know that she is cared for, or at least for someone to pretend that they care. When I tell her that I care for her very much, she says "I know you do", but she doesn't seem to care that I care. She is purposefully avoiding me so that I cannot meet her EN's, she is basically saying that she doesn't want me to fulfill them. Its only been a few weeks though, so I'll keep trying.

Its only been a few weeks though, so I'll keep trying.

Yes do keep trying. A few weeks is nothing. I have been going at it (as best as I can) for 5 months now. I haven't seen her face to face in 3 weeks. I try to make the best of our phone conversations. She gives me every indication that she doesn't want me to meet any of her EN's. The best thing you can do when you talk to your WW is not talk about the relationship. Don't talk about the OM either. Keep to topics that are trivial and light. Keep a smile on your face when you talk to her and don't let her rope you in to drama. If she starts with the 'fog' talk just let it roll off. Don't give her an ammo to work with. It is hard as hell, especially in my situation with my W always bringing up the topic of D.

Sometimes it is hard to tell if what you are saying or doing is having the desired effect on your WW. Be patient. It is going to take time. If you do something that illicits an obviously negative reaction, I would think twice before doing it again.

You must be a very strong person, parkem1. For me, its almost too much to bear, and you have been Plan A'ing 5 months!

I just got off of the phone with the only woman in her family who doesn't support or enable her A. She still talks to my W, and says she has to take her side because they are sisters, but then fills me in on she knows. She is telling me that she doesn't think that my W will ever change, and if we do get back together, that she will just do it again...this is very disheartening coming from one who would know, they are twins. She is basically telling me what everyone else I know, family and friends, that the M isn't worth saving...blah blah blah...so I am so confused. What if we get back together and she does it again? I can't trust anything she says too me, I have caught her in one lie after another, and thats with us living 2 1/2 hours apart.

I also don't want my children to be around the OM or any of the family and friends my W is deciding she needs to hang out with these days. A lot of them are having A's, my W is kissing the OM in front of them (my daughter told me she felt sick when she saw that, she is 6), and we haven't been living together for only 2-3 weeks, and she is letting the children see that already. She has been drinking a lot with the OM before his probation violation, and she is drinking with her older sister, whom I believe encouraged the A in the first place. My wife is messed up, and in turn has messed me up, so while Plan A'ing, the children come first.

There is just so much going on, and my WW seems to be calling all of the shots. I am so tore up, that I am probably screwing up my Plan A attempts.

Plan A'ing to best of my ability. There are probably some stretches where I undo a lot of the good I have done. I wouldn't worry about what family and friends say about the situation, you need to decide what you want for yourself. My MIL told me shortly after my WW stated that she wanted a D "once she makes up her mind there is no changing it" my response was "There is a first time for everything" Like I said that was 5 months ago and she still hasn't filed. I agree that you need to look out for the best interest of the kids first and foremost. You do not want them in a bad environment.

I know how you feel about so much going on and your W calling all the shots. I know you are hurting and Plan A'ing can be hard when you are in that state. But if you want her back and want a chance of making it work you need to roll up those sleeves and get ready for some hard work.

I just got off of the phone with her...45 minute conversation. I don't know if I made any headway, or if I screwed anything up.

We started off normally, me asking her how her day/work, but this time she didn't ask me how I was doing. When I asked about her job, she talked quite a bit about her day (she met the OM there, so its hard to talk about her job, but I want to show her I am interested in her and what she does). We talked about this weekend. She is going to come up and stay Friday night to watch a movie with me, but she'll probably stay the night at her dad's. She wants to take the kids over saturday night, and bring them back sunday night. I ask if she could just stay the whole weekend, I would give her space to be with the kids, and maybe we could take some time to talk a little more. She said something like this "I don't know...(groan)...I just don't know...no..no...NO I don't want to".

People have been suggesting that I don't talk about love, OM, relationships...but I just couldn't help myself...I wish I could control myself. I can in most other situations, but I am having nothing but difficulty with this. I never actually said "I love you" during this conversation, but said "You know how I feel". I can't remember everything I said...sometimes, the trauma I feel with my WW is like a haze, and I can't remember all of the details.

I inquired about whether or not they are in a physical relationship yet. At this point, she got angry with me, and said "No we aren't yet!" and "Why, do you really want to know when we do?" and I said yes, because I am her husband. She then got explicitly crude and started saying things like "You you like it if I told you he did this certain thing to me, and I liked it, or that I did certain things to him and he said it felt good?" I might as well have been stabbed.

But I kept up the Plan A, I didn't get angry or disrespectful. I shifted the conversation to our M when it was good, and how I think that she built up an emotional/mental wall where she can't see the real me, or that I truly care about her, and that I have changed and am continueing to change back to the man I was before the first A. She basically groaned and said "whatever". She insists, like she does in every conversation, that she just can't see us together, she just doesn't love me anymore, she doesn't think anything would change, and that we would just have more years of the same thing we had since the first A.

She claimed that "It was over for her" shortly after the first A. So basically, I had a time limit to get over the agaony of her A. But she said that after that, she wanted to work it out. Funny how she never put it that way back then. She claims that she let me know about all of our problems all of the time, but I didn't do anything about it. Sure, there were times she mentioned this or that, but never with the seriousness of our M at stake.

She also said that she was getting angry with me for talking about this stuff all of the time. I think she feels pressured, so I need to back off...but with the OM in jail, I feel that I have little precious time. With 2 1/2 hours between us, it will be easier for the OM to stick around once he's out (actually, I hope they throw the book at the homewrecking !&*@#$!).

I reminded her about how what she is doing is history repeating itself, that she left her last man for me (which is why this may be cosmic payback on me for my part in that), left her man before last with him, and is doing it again with me. I said I didn't want that to sound the wrong way, but that I worry about her, because she claims to be wanting hapiness, but I don't feel she will by doing what she is doing.

She mentioned wanting to take the kids to church. My wounded, sarcastic side was thinking "You have got to be kidding". I said that I wouldn't mind, and that I thought it would be good for her. I couldn't help myself, and asked if the OM was going to go, when he became available to do so. She said, "Maybe, if he wants too". This is when I couldnt hold back and said, "Well if he does, that would be kind of a sick joke, don't you think?" She said, "I knew you would say that." She alos said that "Its hard for a sinner to talk to or about God." I told her I didn't know how to answer that. I wanted to say "Duh! You are the one doing this! You are making these decisions! You are the one having an A! With a !@$#$&*~!! on probation! We can work this all out if you would just let us! WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS!?!?!?!?"
But, I kept my mouth shut...

Lots of other things were discussed, but parts of
the conversation were hazy. My system has been on massive overload. I've never felt this scared, never missed her as much, never felt this strongly about everything, ever before.

<small>[ October 14, 2004, 06:47 AM: Message edited by: Dimmu ]</small>