<<<<<<<This OW is meeting the emotional needs that your H has gone so long without... that is why they both feel they are in love, they are giving to each other.>>>>>>><P>What is your definition of love?<BR>I thought that is what love is......or at least part of it.<BR>Meeting needs, giving to each other.<BR>I'm reading all of this about fantasy love vs real love.<BR>I have to be honest. I don't buy it.<BR>To call it fantasy love because it is love that does not exist within your own marriage??<BR>Help please!<P>[My situation: I have not yet confronted my H w/ his affair but know that it has been going on for over 2 years. I am looking for answers as to whether or not he really loves her and if he does how long it will take him to forget her, if he ever does. I think his affair was more emotional than sexual. At what point in an affair does the love cease to be a fantasy?]

Hi Holly,<P>I'll take a stab at this one.<P>I have read a book by Marrianne Williamson "A Course in Miracles" that discusses to a great extent the meaning of love. In it she says the ONLY reality is "love." Now, love takes many forms and can be expressed in many ways, but the most primary idea is that we are at peace only when we come from the centered place in our souls that is "love."<BR>There is NO Way I could relate everything this book discusses. It was pretty heady stuff, but I can try to apply the ideas to your question.<P>If your H is having an affair, emotional, physical doesn't matter, then YES he does love her. The crazy thing is, he loves you too. The problem stems from the ways he expresses the love to both, or either of you.<BR>His feelings for the OW are influenced by situations that are a reality only for the two of them, but those same "situations" are NOT all encompassing. Those situations do not include the everyday realities of putting bread on the table, fixing broken pipes, disciplining the kids, etc. The realities of the affair have a fantacy like quality because the daily, mundane *****es of life do not apply. Not only that, but the secrecy necessary to perpetuate an affair gives the whole situation an unreal feel. The relationship is surrounded by lies, deceit and dishonesty, and the only haven for the two envolved is in a little circle in the center of those non-loving characteristics. The "lovers" have a feeling of oneness because they cannot in honesty let anyone else in.<BR>The love your H has for you has been pounded by a different reality, a more "real" reality, if that makes any sense. Money has to be made. Kids have to be cared for. Broken things have to be fixed. Little time and energy is left for the two of you to acknowledge the truth of your love for each other. What I get out of the MB concepts, is that you have to MAKE a haven for yourselves in your marriage. 15 hours a week for companionship. More time for conversation. More time to reignite the sexual fires. Make your marriage the Center of a circle surrounded by honesty, openness, and Unconditional love. That last one is hard when your Spouse is or has been involved in an affair, but the unconditional love is what he gets from the OW coz she prob. sees their situation as temporary anyway. And if not, she knows, that like grandkids, she can send him back home if he gets on her nerves. Offering unconditional love does not mean you swallow your anger, hurt or fears, but that UNDER it all you are your spouses BEST FRIEND and that love is rock solid dispite it all. When confrontation happens, and it must, above all else, be his best friend. Show your anger, pain and fear, but more so, show your love. It is where the true reality lies. He will be really shocked that you are capable of forgiving what he probably feels is unforgivable by you.<BR>In preparation for D day, I suggest you read, read, read Dr. Harley's books and principles. Read what ever you can get your hands on to prepare yourself for an "UPHILL" battle to save your marriage. Initially, it will all be up to you.<BR>Don't worry that you H "loves" the OW. It is not important, it can and will pass. Focus on the fact that YOU love your H.<P>A note, about a month after I discovered my H's affair, we were talking long distance (he was on a flight) and I tearily said to him. "You have said you love her. There is a part of me that cares so much for you that I feel awful suggesting you give up what you might consider the 'love of your life'." His response was, "I almost lost the love of my life when I began my relationship with her."<P>Nuff said.

HollyM, I think i already covered this in another post but I'll give it a try once more. "Fantasy" is the convention we use to describe it, given the fact that this "love" did not or has not yet passed trough the experiences of real day to day life ( "Honey I'm glad you came from work so early, you need to fix the toilet again, it's overflowing. ", "what do you mean there's no more money in the bank? It has to. The guy from the telephone company just called, they're gonna disconnect the phone if we don't pay!", "I know it's 4 a.m., but the baby is still running extremely high fever, you have to take us to the hospital", you know, these kind of things)It also has the added appeal from being something "adventurous" being so secret, and of course it's a relationship that stays frozen in the begining stage where the excitment of a new relationship is fuelled by hormonal changes and "obstructed" rational thought.<BR>People fall in love many times before getting married. does that mean that what they feel for the people before is not love? Not really, it just never develops into a more mature feeling for various reasons. The "love" in an affair is someting like those relationships starting,but on a base that as per convention as well, is considered wrong. It starts on a basis of dishonesty, disreguard for the other people involved, forgetness of previous committment and a lot of selfishness. If we look at it from this point only, it would seem like we married a person that has no redeeming qualitites whatsoever, and yet, it can't be true, when we married this person it was because we found he/she had qualities that we appreciated, and that made us feel we wanted to share our life with this person. So we have to add someting else to the equation: #1 there usually is some aspect in our married life that is not completely working well (needs might not be met for various reasons, stress, ilness, exhaustion, problems ) creating a certain vulnerability for the spouse ( many times both spouses ) to crave attention somewhere else ( many times where it's most likely to come from: either work, or even close friends); #2 Feeling needy, our spouse is more likely to overblow in his/her mind what he/she feels is receiving from that someone else ( even minimal things will be considered such a great connection with this person, that he/she will become extremelly important in a very short time and flaws will be either disreguarded or overlooked). And so the affair starts. <BR>According to Dr. Harley, an affair has usually a life span from 6 months to 2 years( more or less ), until the newness, and blind phase starts to die. The longer it goes the more chances our spouse has to start realizing this other person is not as perfect as he/she is making her/him.<BR>However, by then other things are going on. If the affair was not brought to the open, or discovered yet, it might have become an habit ( a nice one, "hey, I'm juggling two loves ! I get this and that with with my spouse and more this and that with my lover !" - this is important since many times the affair starts with the insecurity created by needs not fulfilled= I'm not loved or important, so it's very addictive . Any things that boosts our self esteem, we are apt to hold onto ); or it might just feel good as it is. Regardless, by that time it starts entering a stage where the reality of life starts popping in. Maybe they decide to disreguard the spouse(s) and live together. Hey that's a good idea! Not really, because of the dishonest base for the whole thing, there will be a tendency of distrust in this relationsip ( Gee, he/she, started with me while he/she was still married. I better be on the lookout, what's to prevent it from happening with me too?"), I don't know many people in those circumstances, but I knew 2. In one case it lasted about 3 months until it dissolved. The wife ( having been the ow for so long and rememebering what had happened with his former wife ) felt she needed to check everything he did, confront him with every missed minute, prevent him to have any contact whatsoever with anybody from the opposite sex.Soon he started to feel, that was even worse than what he had with the wife he had just disreguarded. It died soon, and wasn't pretty.<BR> In the other case, being both conflict avoiders, they struggled with their insecurities, but it did become aparent that the "high" of the affair was completely different from the reality they were having. He ended up getting into other affairs to recreate the "hig", she was faced with a relationship that was not taking her needs in consideration, and the last time I saw them they were completely frustrated with the situation.<BR>I'm not saying it can't work, Im saying the odds are that it won't, because it starts with the wrong base.Deceit doesn't hold much weight over it.<BR>SO we don't cal it fantasy ligthly. Yes love is the fulfilling of needs that make us feel good and important to a certain person, and yes, those needs can certainly be fulfilled by other people. But in the case of affairs, people are pretty much deceiving themselves as well as other people because the person set out living with someone he/she choose for his/her life, encountered some difficulties on the way, felt neglected, so assumed that instead of working things, the solution would be starting again with someone new. he/she didn't work on the problems, wich will bring them into the next relationship, and the next, and the next. Until those problems are worked on and solved, no relationship will have a chance, because the same problems will have a tendency to repeat themselves when least expected.<BR>I'm a bit tired this morning, but I hope I gave you and idea of what you wanted to know, if not post again. <BR>Take care<BR>Kat<P><BR>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.<P>[This message has been edited by Kat1 (edited September 18, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by Kat1 (edited September 18, 1999).]

Wow!<BR>you all are great.<BR>I think I have a better grasp on it now and even relieved maybe.<P>I'll keep reading.<BR>thanks again!<P>

Hi Kat and Pilot's wife<BR> You both did a great job of explaining it all. I have a question, I know you've been the betrayed....I am too, my H is back here with us but I always feel second best and long to feel loved and chosen (I feel like he is here for the kids and I feel like he is holding onto the "fantasy" of the OWin his mind, the "true love " he gave up for us. )Did you ever feel like that? If so how did you cope?, I'm hoping he comes around , he's polite and nice but I am starved for some genuine affection......Lu<p>[This message has been edited by Lu (edited September 18, 1999).]

Lu,<BR>That is precisely how I feel even though I have not yet confronted him.<BR>That is where my questions come from!!!<P>You can never know what is really in someone's mind and heart. In our situation, I feel like he's here for the kids.....and I know if when it's all said and done......he'll say he doesn't love her anymore or never did or whatever......but in reality.....<BR>I think I'll always feel he is giving me lip service and saying what I want to hear so he can remain here with the children.<BR>Even if the relationship with the OW ends.<P>

O.K. ladies. Things always have to start somewhere. I rememeber reading a post from someone that used to post here, and that was in counseling with Dr. Harvey posting about something he told her : "O.K., don't fret so, what if he's staying because of the kids? It's not the ideal solution, but it wil buy you time to work on what needs to be worked, so he will stay because he wants to be with you, instead of just because the kids"<BR>I'm afraid I had to work this all in my head without the benefit of this advice, since I only found this site much later. But I happen to agree with it. Life, unfortunately, is not made of ideal situations. We're rarely dealt the best cards. What we learn from this is to take advantage of any breaks we can. In a big percentage of cases ( not all, mind you ) it is certainly better to work from the inside. If your spouse is home, then there's a bigger range of things you can do to "help" him along in his decision. And that's one advantage we have over the op. Another one is the fact that in most cases we know our H much better than she does, and we can use that knwoledge to our advantage. Many times it's not possible to just sit and wait for him to think straight. Most probably he's extremely confused, and feeling like he's being pulled from 2 opposite sides. However, if he's still home, we can do our best to create a positive and loving atmosphere ( that he might reject or avoid at first ). Finding out what needs need to be worked on, and try to fulfill them without overdoing it a first, making sure that conversation is pleasant and light, and avoiding subjects like the op or the affair - which will make him feel defensive and unconfortable for being there -. I'm afraid in the majority of cases the problems were created equally by both spouses ( as I said, life's not easy, and when the things get rough, the marriage suffers without us even realizing , it )but we are the ones that have more of a chance of thinking and rationalizing without confusion, so we might have to start working at it, without our spouse. He'll catch up later. The idea is to make it feel good and interesting enough at home, so he won't even rememeber much about going to the op. If this is working, slowly he will start spending more and more time at home, and less and less time with the op.Keep in mind all this has to allow for a back and forth motion for a while.<BR>Why go trough all the trouble? Because it is worht.<BR>It might take some time, but one day you'll wake up think back to all the ways your spouse has been telling you how important you are, and realize that you indeed are number one for him. ( and also realize, that your marraige is actually much better than before). And when that happens you will really know, why you went trough all the hard work.<BR>Take care.<BR>I'll be here on an off today. I'll try to answer your questions as I find them. Or you can also e-mail me at lwnd@hotmail.com ( during the week I do check my e-mail at work, but sometimes don'ta have a chance to check this forum ).<BR>Kat <P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.<p>[This message has been edited by Kat1 (edited September 18, 1999).]

Lou, yes there was a time, where I did feel I wasn't number one. I wasn't that important and that his decision in staying had nothing to do with his feeling for me. <BR>There was a time where I would doubt myself. Am I doing the right thing? He obviously is only here because he wants to do the right thing. But his thoughs are with her.<BR>Well there were two things going on at the same time.<BR>First, he was going trough withdrawl, so yes, he was thinking about her, and what they could have together. He was also discovering reasons why it wouldn't work with her at the same time.Knowing that this was a normal phase in the recovery stage, helped me go trough it.<BR>Secondly, after a while, the person that was thinking about her and the affair, was me more than him. I kept being insecure, and imagining all these situations where they would meet and talk and renew the affair, way after he had already stoped thinking about it. As soon as I realized this I did my best to correct it, and sure enough, the signs that I was important to him were more clear.<BR>Just keep in mind that things took time getting to the point where he felt he didnt care much for you or your marriage, so they will also take time until the oppostite happens.<BR>Enjoy you weekend.<BR>By the way, for a while, me and my H were sopolite to each other, that it wasn't even funny. It was way to much. I found that was just the begining of the reconecting phase. Where we were starting all over again.<BR>Take care<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

Well put, Kat.<P>First things first Holly. Prepare to confront. Get it out in the open so the healing can begin.<P>Holly and Lu..<P>A good book to read and use during his withdrawal, and withdraw he must, is "The Ten Second Kiss" The force will be with you if you overpower your own fears, hurt and anger with expressions of love and affection. He will respond, eventually in kind, and soon the pain will diminish to be replaced with genuine affection.<P>Or, get the book and try out some of the ideas before you confront. The guilt will eat him alive! And he will want to be home with you more than OP.<P>On another note. I just reread my first post on this thread and noticed that some of the letters in a naughty word, referring to a female dog, were replace with stars! Is that automatic? Will make typing nayghty words easier if I don't have to hit the shift key and numbers to spell! hehe<p>[This message has been edited by Pilot's wife (edited September 18, 1999).]

Great posts guys. You have all clarified a whole lot for me - thanks.

Holly, I second pilot's wife. It's time to get things in the open.<BR>Be prepared however, to go trough a stormy time.<BR>He might just try to make it like it's not true. He might react angry. He might even act offended and hurt that you would think such a thing about him. Keep your goal in mind, and don't discourage if things get rough. If at all possible, try to avoid his leaving, it's much more difficult to work in that scircumstances.<BR>You have my e-mail ( it's on this thread I think) write me anytime. I'll do my best to answer as soon as I can.<BR>Please keep the end result in mind ( be positive ) and don't let yourself be sidetracked by anything else. Try to avoid lovebusters, give him time to sot himself out, avoid many questions about the affair if you see he has trouble answering them.<BR>On the other hand, there's another option open to you. Start working on those love unit deposits before confronting. Start working on the less perfect things. Make some more time together - if possible -, maybe it can work too. <BR>I don't know, you will have to decide in this one.<BR>Take care<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

Hi Kat and Pilot's wife,<BR> Hey, thanks for giving me some input on the subject , it's been 4 mos. since he's been back and sometimes it just hurts, you know?... it's been 10mos. since discovery and<BR>the old love bank feels bone dry....it is getting better but I would just love to have some love and affection....I'll keep hanging in there...I guess polite is a start... Lu

Kat and Pilots wife did a marvelous job in the responses on your thread, HollyM.<P>I'm not the one to be commenting here, I believe Faith, Hope & Love can do a much better job of it than I, but here goes...<P>There are different parts of love. Agape, is one. That is the kind of friendship Christ love. Then there is sexual love....<P>Okay, there are 5 different kinds. A marriage, has all 5. An affair doesn't.<P>On another point, I just want to address bonding. Bonding occurs for lots of different reasons, but one reason is secrets. Secrets shared between two people, are ways to bond. I could have a secret, or exclusive comment that means more than one thing to another person - and it can bring about a sense of bonding.<P>For example, if I told a joke to a friend, and then a few weeks later - some conversation came up - and one of us mentioned one word in the punchline of the joke, we both would be connected. There wasn't tons of communication to bring about the laugh, it was something we both connected on - and there was a very small bond.<P>Well, of course this is on a very small scale of bonding. But if I told you some things about myself that you held in confidence, that were very private to me - and I trusted you with those things, we would have a bond. <P>I would imagine the affair, is one of the strongest aspects of secrets and bonds. It really has nothing to do with love, but the entire relationship is built upon secrets, deceit and mutual lies, they are bonded in lies. This is why you need to expose the truth. It breaks the bonds.<P>I would like to share something I've noticed about leadership and influence. You can gain a group of people together for a common cause if it is focused on a common negative... For example, I could rally my neighbors to sign a petition, attend a city council meeting, and start campaigning to stop a strip joint from being built in my neighborhood. <P>We could have immediate vision and teamwork to obtain the goal, focused on a negative. It pulls together a group of people quick, and passionately. But take the same group of people, and get them to work together and quickly and passionately towards a neighborhood watch program - and it is going to take much more work to pull it off.<P>If you compare that to human nature and affairs, maybe you can see the lure and traps that come when an affair is based on lies, deceit - and their negative situations at home.<P>Hope this helps your wheels thinking and gets you on the right track, and also motivates you to work really hard at your marriage. Hope this also gets you planning your confrontation with your husband.

I was just catching up and I see my name came up. This is a most interesting thread with some great insight.<P>The 5 types of love that Trustntruth talked about comes from a book called "Love Life For Every Married Couple" by Dr. Ed Wheat.<P>It was wonderful. My H and I read it together shortly after discovery. It was instructional and inspirational. My H even said he wished he heard these things when we were first married. Although a lot of it wasn't as "new" to me as it was to him, I wish we had too.<P>Anyway, the five types of love in marriage are (loaned the book so forgive the spelling)<P>1. Greek word for desire. You know, the intense sexual love.<P>2. Eros which is the romantic type of love. This takes work in a long time relationship.<P>3. Storge which is loyalty and belonging. Kind of the old shoe type of affection, but of course in marriage becomes even deeper with the passing of time and entertwining of lives.<P>4. Phileo which is a cherished friendship. Actually more complex in the book. Liking and desiring companionship with other person, but more than that.<P>5. Agape which is the Christian love we have for one another. In a marriage agape love is a choosen love. 1 Corintians 13, the Love Chapter is about agape love.<P>All of these loves exist in a marriage, but they all need to be tended to and guarded. <P>I'm not quoting the book here, but n an affair, you may or may not start out with phileo which catches fire and becomes a intense sexual 1 or/and emotional 2 (eros). Even if the affair is based on fantasy and is superficial compared to the complexity of day to day married life, the intense feelings it generates makes it seem more real.<P>It seems to me the edge married love in it's entirety has is the storge, agape and often phileo.<P>How many times does a partner hear I love you, but I'm not "in" love with you, when their spouse is in an affair. I think that maybe the intense emotions that is taken out of the marriage and shared with the OW/OM are contrasted with the equally important, but less intense storge, agape and phileo. The betrayer may think it is real love because it is so intense, but is confused by the bond he/she still has with the mate.<P>So it depends on your definition of love whether an affair can be considered love. If you define love in terms of heady intense passion and feeling...then maybe it is. If you have a more complex definition of love, then no, it is more a fantasy, untested by the stresses of real life.<P>Hope this adds something to the discussion. <P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13