Here I go again, posting late at night...

I've been looking at the behavior of several WW's as described by their husbands here at MB, and I have to say, my girl has behaved quite differently from many, though there are similar cases.

My W has detached herself completely from me. When I put her in plan B, she howled and cried over the phone. And that was the last I heard of her, except through her lawyer.

OM is behaving like a complete jerk toward car4love, the sparrow looked miserable in court yesterday, and her best friend is turning away from her.

I don't expect my marriage to be saved. The sparrow has completely cooperated with plan B. She's made no effort to have anything to do with me. In essence, she's gone along with my having banned her from my life with little argument.

I feel guilty for doing it, too, because it hurt her. I know I had to do it, that if I hadn't she'd have just gone on torturing me and dismissing me and trying to eradicate me.

But I'm also hurt by her cooperation. It feels to me like it was awfully easy for her to detach.

True, I don't know what thoughts take her when she's alone and doesn't have OM around to cling to. She may even miss me, but my gut tells me she doesn't.

I don't know where I'm going with this. I only know how hard it is for me to give up this attachment, and I feel it isn't hard for her, and that hits me where it counts... if I was so wonderful and irresistable, how could she turn her back on me so easily?

Anyway, just a few thoughts knocking around tonight...

GC

But I'm also hurt by her cooperation. It feels to me like it was awfully easy for her to detach.

Its natural to feel this way GC...all of us going through over a year of ordeal and heading to plan D...feels this way.

Our WS may look detach but i believe deep inside they also misses us and that guilt must be eating them big time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

if I was so wonderful and irresistable, how could she turn her back on me so easily?

Yeah, and if America is such a great country, how come we have natural born citizens spying for other contries, giving them secrets. Maybe we're not so great after all. Maybe this is really a lousy country?

Whatda think?

SS

Logic is logic, I always say.

<small>[ February 10, 2005, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

gc:

"I've been looking at the behavior of several WW's as described by their husbands here at MB, and I have to say, my girl has behaved quite differently from many, though there are similar cases.

My W has detached herself completely from me. When I put her in plan B, she howled and cried over the phone. And that was the last I heard of her, except through her lawyer."

Sadly, your STBXW isn't unusual at all. There are many that have behaved similarly. One that comes 2 mind in a very eerily spooky way is ALostSoul's xW.

I bumped his LONG thread up so you could peruse it. Please do.

-ol' 2long

<small>[ February 10, 2005, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

2long, I did read a bunch of the ALS thread. It made me so sad, even the end. You were right - the situations are striking in some of their similarities. And I see my life as being on a very similar trajectory.

I'm not going to stay married. There's not a chance of it. I've known that for a couple of months now. I don't like it. This strange combination of love, hate, and pity I feel is terribly unsettling. It's no fun to lose hope.

As I grieve, I know I'm going to be happy again, but I also know I'll carry this scar, this tragic firsthand knowledge of human weakness, that I didn't have before. I think I'd have preferred to go through life untroubled by it, and I don't get to do that now.

Thanks for bumping that thread. It would have been tough to swallow in the early days.

GC

Another thing about that thread...

I'm glad I'm being tough and indignant now. I've earned the right to it, and I think it's the best way for me to communicate to the sparrow that what she knows, deep down, is true: her actions are destructive, cruel, and inexcusable.

I'll let go of my own anger in time. But right now, it's good for me and it's ultimately good for her. What do they call that? Wrathful compassion is it?

GC

Another late night... okay, this might drag on a bit.

I feel I've reached some understanding about the sparrow today. I was remembering some of the times we had early in our relationship, remembering how good we were to each other, how it seemed at the time like nothing could come between us, and how I believed without a doubt that she would never let me down.

I hope she remembers those times too. I've sometimes felt these past months that she can't possibly... but I know she must. And I thought of something hope4future said a while back - that she probably thinks all the negative things about herself that I've thought about her, and worse.

Today my brother helped me carry the last thing she plans to take from the house to the garage. It's a big, very heavy vanity that we bought at the estate sale for our house.

The other day, in court, she complained that she couldn't just swing by and get her stuff because she has a small car and will need to get a truck. I thought of the people she might ask to help her. I know the top two contenders for the job (men with trucks she knows) will not want to help her. I've given her the message several times that I do not want OM in my garage or anywhere else near my house.

And I imagined her stuck with no help trying to load this stuff into a truck. This 5'2", 100-pound girl, on her own, struggling to lift this big old vanity.

It made me so sad for her, even though in all likelihood she'll get help, and probably even have OM help her, just come here during the day when she knows I won't be around.

Then I thought of how terrible she looked in court the other day.

I compared her life now to her life back when we were starting out. She had nothing to regret, nothing to be ashamed of. Now, as this affair stretches closer to having lasted a year, she has every reason in the world to be full of shame and regret, and maybe even is, though I don't know.

I thought again of those happier times for us, and wondered, just for the sake of wondering, how we could ever have times like those again, if somehow we wound up together in the end. Could she ever forgive herself and feel worthy of my love?

I know I could forgive her still, and that if she could forgive herself, we could have a happy life again, in time. I also know she does not share any such hope, and doubt she even wishes such a thing could happen.

I guess the point is, she knows I could forgive her, but even if she wanted to come back to me, and I accepted her, I don't think she has the ability to forgive herself.

My memories of the sparrow, so many good ones, taking up a third of my life so far, are all stained by what has become of us. I can't think about them without thinking about the promise they held, which turned out being broken and discarded.

This is what infidelity does. It takes the innocence and beauty from our relationships. It pollutes even our good memories. It scars its victims and does even worse to its perpetrators. It is relentless in this, so far at least.

What a tragedy for the sparrow. Redemption offered, but rejected by her. A doomed relationship that, even if it survives, will always have its origins recalled with shame and bitterness. A huge part of her life, abandoned and almost denied.

I don't know where this is headed, but I feel this new understanding I can't really explain...

GC

See you lurking Gray, and just wanted to say "heh"!

Just read your last very philosophical post.

All I have to say is yep, I think you pretty much got it pegged.

Hope you had a nice weekend guy!

I'm trying to limit my MB "time", cuz I need to reconnect with my life a bit. Meaning I am completely ignoring my rentals (not to mention my real life friends) ... and have an offer on a house I want to sell, and haven't even jumped on it. They want to buy land contract which is fine with me, but I guess I need to actually move on it, or something. LOL

Gray,

Right there with you on this one. The affair is as far reaching as a death in the family. Only worse because it is unnecessary.

Like a child run over by a drunk driver. What a waste.

I have seen friends killed in front of me. Doesn't even come close to the pain of the betrayal of an affair.

I am very well grounded. It takes quite a bit for me to even show you that I am rattled. But this affair has rendered me close to incapable of functioning. Never experienced that in my life.

And yes, half of my life that had good memories has been tarnished. I will even be reminded by the presence of my sons. All because someone was a little dissatisfied.

Know those prisoners in Fallujah who were humiliated? I'd have rather gone through that. It can be so cruel it should be criminal.

But I am venting and will stop, it is your journal. Just letting you know it's not wrong to hurt.

NCWalker

GC:

I'm glad that the ALS thread was of some use 2 you.

I sure got a lot out of it. It was probably the first "big thread" where I saw that no matter how hard some BSs work 2 save their M, it just isn't meant 2 be. BUT, and this is the important part of the whole process, ALS came out of the experience a helluva guy.

You will 2, regardless of how this ends.

It has been a pleasure 2 make your aquaintance in the ether like this! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

-ol' 2long

Thanks, good people. I don't have much to report any more except divorce procedures and reflections... NCW - thank you especially for posting to me. I'm so sorry for the reason you've come back to MB.

The day we were in court, last Tuesday, opposing counsel mentioned that the sparrow was leaving for Germany that night (she goes there a few times a year for work), and was coming back tonight. I've finally, finally put the last item in the garage. Not one thing she's going to take is left in the house. I expect she might come grab a few things tomorrow.

There's a poem a friend showed me the night the sparrow said she wanted a divorce, back in early June of '04. I posted here like a maniac all that night (weaver was there, bless her heart), and I posted the poem then. Here it is:

The Purge
Marge Piercy

Beware institutions begun with a purge,
beware buildings that require the bones
of a victim under the cornerstone, beware
undertakings launched with a blood
sacrifice, watch out for marriages
that start with a divorce.

To break a champagne bottle over the prow
of a boat is prodigal but harmless; to break
a promise, a friendship much more exciting
(champagne doesn't squeal); but doesn't
the voyage require a lot of sightseeing
and loot to justify that splatter?

Give it up for me, she says, give him
up, give her up, look only in my eyes
and let me taste my power in their anguish.
How much do you love me? Let me count
the corpses as my cat brings home mangled
mice to arrange on my doormat like hors d'oeuvres.

But you know nobody dies of such executions.
Your discarded friends are drinking champagne
and singing off key just as if they were happy
without you. One person's garbage is another's
new interior decorating scheme. If she is your
whole world, how quickly the sun sets now.

My reason for posting this again? I'm tempted, really tempted, to stick it in one of the drawers of the vanity. I know I probably shouldn't, but I don't know why I shouldn't. Is it somehow mean and gratuitous? The sparrow and OM took refuge in songs and movies about romance and the importance of "following your heart". I want to show my W a piece of art that isn't filled with excuses she can use.

Time to go to sleep. Gotta get up early for work, and it's already too late... night all.

GC

Well gray, I've had a lot thoughts over the past month regarding your situation. I'm of the school that if all you can think about is telling someone what the should or should not do then it's time to move on. that's the place where i'm at. i know not everybody processes things and moves forward on the same level. i don't feel that i am anyone to say what you should or should feel at this point. i'm just feeling increasing frustration when i read your posts because of what i consider as you "holding on" and what i see as an attitude that doesn't know that things will get better.

so with that being said, this will be my last post to you. i'm not saying/doing this to be mean or curt but just because i KNOW people don't and cannot handle situations the same way. no one can ever walk in your shoes, they can have similar situations but never ever walk and experience the same thing as you. i only come to the boards now to follow your story becasue i wanted to see you progress to the next level. i do keep in touch with a few people from here through email. but i know enough and have read enough about you that you will eventually get to that level, there's no doubt in my mind.

i know you still have a lot of doubts/questions/concerns regarding your "relationship" or lack there of with God. But he does exist, he loves and cares for you, so much so that he gave his only son to die for you and me, the whole world in fact.

Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


God is the best counselor of all and you can cast all you cares upon him and his son Jesus. take care and continued prayers to you, RR

Maybe I'll get the last word, RR...

I think my posts tend to have a lot of puzzle-solving and negativity in them, because I post when I'm feeling confused, hurt, and frustrated. They aren't representative of the way I'm going through life.

F'rinstance, this morning, all that business about sticking some crazy poem in a drawer for my W to find seemed just stupid.

As far as holding on... I'm letting myself grieve naturally. Right now that means a lot of anger and frustration. Intellectually, I've let go. Emotionally, not quite there. And on a practical level, I'm still married, still unavailable to the opposite sex, still alone. Holding on a little more comes with the territory.

So here are some things I like about my life, and positive things I look forward to.

I look forward to finishing my house restoration.

I look forward to spending evenings working on my boat out in the garage and listening to baseball games (after it gets warm).

I like being able to work on music whenever I want, even if that means I don't finish the laundry until tomorrow.

I like being able to go get a beer on a Wednesday night without it being a big deal.

I like falling asleep in front of the fireplace. In the summer, I like to sleep on the porch now and then. Sparrow never went for those kind of shenanigans.

I like having the radio on all the time.

I like going out for sushi (sparrow doesn't like it).

I really look forward to meeting women. Enough said.

And given the circumstances, I'm glad that I'm not going to have to deal with a depressed, withdrawn, surly wife for months or even years.

Oh, and another thing. I was happy to be denied some of those leisure activities and hobbies when I had a wife.

I haven't accepted the loss yet, RR. I'm still having those sudden realizations about things I'm losing. You know... I'll never play 500 with my in-laws at the cabin, ever again. Stuff like that.

I'll try to post more when I'm not cranky though, RR, just to prove I'm not pounding my chest in frustration and agony all the time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks for the "snap out of it!"

GC

I thought the poem was very good.


...but you shouldn't put it in the drawer. I'm glad you decided not 2 already.


For me, this board, iloveulove.com and SYMC have been the most helpful in dealing with my W's LTA. Better than counseling. Better even than coaching. Not because those aren't good, they are. But because I never really had a willing participant in any of that. I don't have a willing participant in posting 2 the boards, either, but it doesn't cost me anything and I can get feedback pretty much any time. That also requires a little more "responsibility" on my part, because none of the advice is "professional" and some of it may be pretty far off the mark. It IS easy 2 get embroiled in negativity with forums like this, but I think we all even2ally learn how 2 avoid that trap.

Upshot of all this rambling is that I think the positive things do come out in your posts, gc. I still enjoy coming 2 your threads.

-ol' 2long

Graycloud,

I think you and I are a lot alike in that we are loyal, long after it makes sense to be.

I called off my wedding and asked exie to move out about the same time you found out about your WW's affair. I tried to date from eharmony but decided I am not ready. It's like I gave my heart to him and it got stuck there. It's still with him, so what can I do? Can't date because it doesn't feel good to me.

I went six years after I left my DD's dad before meeting exie, so I have a long loyalty thing when I really love someone.

I will continue to love exie until I stop loving him. Nothing I can do about it. My heart will fall in love again on it's own good time.

I've been through this before and have my daughter with whom I can pour out love and affection to. So I am probably going to be alone longer than you. You do not have a child, so you will fall in love again when love can't contain itself anymore, when it needs to be poured out onto another woman.

This place is good for a lot of reasons, I truly believe it is a positive thing unless it becomes an escape for avoiding your real life. It's an addiction for me, because I view it that way. But you know what? It's better than hanging out in the bars, which is about all there is to do up here in my neck of the woods for socializing when my little girl is with her dad.

It's true, weaver. My loyalty is a problem for me right now.

So here's a question... when will our lives, we BS-getting-dumped-for-good, when will our lives no longer seem to be diseased by infidelity?

Maybe WAT knows.

Four-day weekend coming!

Friday - seeing mortgage guy to figure out how to give the sparrow a pile of cash and still keep my house. Interviewing for a volunteer position at the hospital. Saturday - helping my friends move into their new house, their first.

I hope the sparrow gets the rest of her stuff. I need my garage! I'm emptying out the first floor of the house so I can fix the plaster, refinish the trim, and refinish the floors. It's going to be a huuuuuge mess.

GC

So here's a question... when will our lives, we BS-getting-dumped-for-good, when will our lives no longer seem to be diseased by infidelity?

When there is a shift in perspective. "A Course in Miracles" says that a miracle is a shift in perspective.

Csue would know what I am talking about here.

For me that shift has come I think. Can't put it into words really but it's been a long time coming for me.

I now know that I will be okay, regardless if I find love again. And I also know that I have so much love to give that I will be able to give it again...and it will find me.

I now know that the basics will be provided. For example the bills will be paid, the leeky roof at the rental will get fixed and I will find a way to pay for it. I know if I lose my job, I will find another. My daughter will have what she needs, clothes, food etc.

I think I have again found faith in mankind. Not enough where I can actually read the paper, but enough to know that most people are good and decent. Most people will not betray another. And if it happens again I will survive it.....again.

It's tougher for you Gray, because you have been married all your adult life to the only person you have ever been in a serious relationship with. For you it is your very first broken heart which also happens to be the first time your life has been completely shattered. That's a very big wound.

My life...

Thursday morning I decided to quit smoking. Coming up on three days. Today will be tricky - spending the day with smokers.

This weekend I start real work on the house.

Yesterday I interviewed at the hospital. I'll be a volunteer in the ER. In my normal job I'm a respected authority. At the hospital... a gopher for the nursing staff.

Also working with a mortgage guy on giving the sparrow enough cash to make her satisfied. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Feeling very alone these days, but at least I have a lot to do. This seems a dark time, this final stretch before the divorce gets done. Midwinter, getting divorced, quitting smoking... a recipe for being surly. But I feel great about the direction things are going. Well, most things.

GC

GrayCloud,

So you are a wimp for hanging on and hoping too long? Is that the stick with which you beat yourself?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So here's a question... when will our lives, we BS-getting-dumped-for-good, when will our lives no longer seem to be diseased by infidelity?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So here's the answer... It's NOT.

Your WIFE'S life is diseased by infidelity. Not yours. Yours in only affected by it. Just like if she had cancer. Doesn't mean YOU have it. Just means you had to support her through it.

Your SOUL is intact. Your "wimpiness" or "weakness" in hanging on too long is nothing more than God's insurance policy that you will be able to look in the mirror and say four simple words.

I DID MY BEST.

I don't know about you, but the day I can't live with MYSELF is the day I can no longer say those words. Other than that, with God's grace, I pretty much think I can live with ANYTHING. Doesn't mean things aren't going to hurt. Doesn't mean there will not be trials. There will be.

NCW heard an excellent sermon TODAY. God's timing can be amazing.

The sermon was contrasting the difference between a TRIAL (which you faced) and a TEMPTATION (which the sparrow faced). Here are the important points...

A TEMPTATION is devised by Satan to get you to sin, but a TRIAL is designed by God to get you to shine.

A TRIAL will strengthen you, but a TEMPTATION will weaken you.

A TRIAL, at times, is unbearable in your own strength, which is why you turn to God. A TEMPTATION is never unbearable, God always gives us an escape route, but we must choose to take it.

A TRIAL is a test to build us. A TEMPTATION is a trick to destroy us.

I have been on this board for almost a year. I don't mean this to offend your, Gray, I really don't. But notice that there are not many calls to you for help or advice. I don't think your gifting lies in the advice department.

But let me also say this... You have been a FIXTURE here since I have been on this board. There are those of us with the verbal gifting, evangelism, wisdom, whatever you want to call it.

Then there are those who are the living examples of the annointing. They preach by DOING, not saying. That, my friend, is what YOU have done.

You may not be one of the "Dear Abby's" of MB, but your impact, your importance to those of us here is truly one of the greatest.

When I, and most others here, think of GrayCloud, I think of...

Patience

Perserverence

Forgiveness

Uncompromising (Integrity, I mean. Not stooping to a lower level.)

Caring

Concern

This does not come from the advice you give, but from the life you live. You may feel alone now. My bet? God is taking His time finding the NEXT Mrs. Cloud. After the witness you have been to us, I'm sure He will want to get it right.

Deepest regards, as it is much harder to DO than SAY,

NCWalker

Thank you, NCW.

Some people keep journals, especially when they're in a crisis or going through a big change in life. I kept one for a while.

The journal started to become a file of all the things I wanted to tell my WW. Descriptions of my pain. Discussions of how often affairs fail, and why. Reminders that the revised history she was composing was inaccurate. Attempts to demolish any justification she may have concocted.

For a while, back in the summer, whenever I thought of some new thing, some brilliant point, I'd try to get it into that journal.

A week or so ago, I started putting some of the things in the journal into a letter to the sparrow. I wrote, and stopped, and wrote some more, and so on for a few days.

Then over the weekend I opened the file up, and it occurred to me... this letter was no use at all. I felt foolish for having started it.

I was trying to cheat. When you try to resolve a beef with someone who has hurt you, they must give you chances to describe your point of view. They must be willing to "hear your pain."

I was going to force the sparrow to hear mine. The letter would be devastating.

Now I see... saying these things to her could only serve a purpose if she volunteered to hear them.

I don't get to tell her anything. I just have to accept things for what they are, and try not to let my frustration and my need for resolution rule me any more.

I may still send her a goodbye letter after the divorce is done, but if I did it today it would be simple and short:

I love you. Please forgive me for my mistakes. I wish you hadn't done this. You hurt me profoundly. I accept your decisions, because I have to. But I don't excuse you. Bye.

GC

<small>[ February 21, 2005, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: graycloud ]</small>