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#1200863 03/15/05 01:33 AM
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gc...sorry dude..get to that in a sec.

Have to sort of disagree with ff here. I wouldn't "necessarily" find it abnormal. Are there other indications that would make you question this, though? I think that's a question that should be answered.

About sparrow...bro, I've held my tongue for a while now, watching you writhe in pain from this dead soul of a person she's truned into...she really needs her wings clipped. The balls to do something like this! I know she's been spiteful to you in the past, but this is a steel tip in the groin. What the **** is this "in your face" attitude they have? Take the high road bro. (I know--easier said than done.) Try not to let it effect you in *ANY* visible way possible. This is *not* the woman you married; and certainly not the tpye of woman you want back. Her actions are appalling, dispicable, immature.

Sorry. Just felt like venting for ya.

#1200864 03/15/05 07:50 AM
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Hi GC,

Well,this new development just goes to show how wacked out they are.I would be doing everything in my power to get the heck away from them.And how surreal is it that they just happen to set up camp 7 blocks away from you? gross.That really stinks or maybe there won't be much chance of running into them,that would be better.

Anyway,I don't think it's right at all what sparrow and the homewrecking OM are doing and I certainly do not think that having the 3 year old in bed with the two of them is appropriate either but many families have sleeping arrangements like this,you know "Family beds" where as kids they are allowed to sleep with parents for the first several years.I don't think that CPS would consider this something to act upon but that's JMO.

It is creepy but it's par for the course with the two adulterers.I am not shocked to hear about it though,we have had some sick behavior mentioned here before.

O

#1200865 03/15/05 09:06 AM
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Why of all places to live, would they move to your neighborhood? What is wrong with these people. They don't even have the common decency to stay away. Do all the neighbors know that two adulterers have moved in? I think they might be interested in knowing that! I am shocked that they would be that close to you, seeing the effect on Sparrow it has when she sees you and speaks to you. Deep down they know what they did is wrong, they can stuff it, but that's not so easy if they run into you all the time.

BTW - How is Car4love and the baby doing?

#1200866 03/15/05 10:50 AM
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I think it's kind of instructive, Kloe. This is how little I'm thought of.

My friend said they're a pair of "screwballs".

Car4love and the baby are doing fine, but she hates it when OM comes to the house. Everybody is getting a psych eval, including the sparrow. I feel so left out!

GC

#1200867 03/15/05 03:24 PM
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gc:

"Everybody is getting a psych eval, including the sparrow. I feel so left out!"

I gotta 'fess out... ...you made me LAUGH! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-ol' 2long

#1200868 03/15/05 06:17 PM
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Great! They're finally shacking up fully out in the open! Can anyone else hear the death rattles of a doomed relationship in the future?? Well, ok, who really knows - but if it's going to happen it will get a big kick in the butt by the reality of losing the 'thrill' of sneaking around - or at the very least the "agony" of "why oh why can't we just be together". Now they will be - day in, day out, paying bills, smelling each others....well, anyway. It's a nice dose of reality.

As far as being just down from you - I hope it doesn't cramp your style at all - it certainly might add one more dose of uncomfortableness to their situation knowing you're just down the way. Let's hope.

Gray, you don't have kids - I wouldn't put too much thought in to what it is they do or don't do with OM's kid. If it were me and I were head over heals in love with someone - it would seem natural I would want them to love my kid and be one big happy family. Now - obviously there are other things to consider than that - but not to the foggy. I don't think they're being 'strange', just immoral. People do really dumb things....

#1200869 03/15/05 06:33 PM
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Hm...

Start thinking of personalized lisence plates that you could put on your car that would mean something POINTED 2 them?...

...so when you drive by...


<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
-ol' 2long

#1200870 03/17/05 12:24 AM
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Yes, yes, everything progresses nicely.

The sparrow's BF, Andrea, cuts my friend Crow's hair. Saturday Crow got a haircut, and Andrea told him that my MIL gave her a little guilt trip about letting her friendship with the sparrow go sour. Basically, MIL said, "This is the way it's going to be, and none of us like it, but there's nothing we can do about it, so we may as well get used to it."

Andrea basically said that after many years of turmoil and trouble, her life is good and happy. She has a baby girl, and she and her H are doing well. She doesn't want to invite this chaos into her life. She's just not interested.

If my information is right, sparrow lives in my neighborhood with OM. My in-laws have given up the fight. My divorce will likely be done in just a few weeks.

Guess I'm starting to feel a little of what they call "acceptance". It's a funny feeling. Seems like I should resist it. To imagine no longer feeling upset about something so unacceptable to me... strange.

GC

#1200871 03/17/05 12:27 AM
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GC, I've just called to you on I'ville.

Acceptance will come and I know you want to fight it. Shoot, it's 10 years.

I still think Sparrow will crash and burn but I am just as sure you will have moved on.

I sound like a stuck record but one day fireworks will go off and you will be there to meet the girl of your dreams.

Jen

<small>[ March 16, 2005, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: KiwiJ. ]</small>

#1200872 03/17/05 03:10 PM
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If you're really finding peace and acceptance, GC, why do you keep writing about it? (This from the queen of continuing to write about Stuff....)

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

#1200873 03/17/05 03:30 PM
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Gray,

As you know, your sparrow and my wolf are very much alike, and I want to share with you a view from about 2 years down the road.

Yep. The divorce was finalized. Something I thought would NEVER happen to me, happened--the unthinkable, really. In my head, I knew I had gone above and beyond, and done the right thing...but it was still stunning. Well, more like numbing. Everyone kept telling me that "eventually he'll crash and burn" and literally everything I saw and heard seemed the exact opposite. He had a new apartment, took all the "good" furniture, spent money like it was water, and came home to someone who loved him every night (or so I thought). Meanwhile, I was stuck with the mortgage, taking care of two kids by myself, and an empty home.

As time went by, I decided to just keep being an honorable person and just keep doing what I thought was right, even if it seemed like doing the right thing was ridiculed. I got a new place I could afford...found a job I enjoyed...got my finances back in control...got the kids settled and comfortable and secure. Yep, time went by and I was feeling like it was coming together a bit. And on the occasion I would hear about the wolf and his "escapades"--and sometimes it hurt that he would do it right under my nose or tell the kids about it--but for the most part I just kept my focus on my own self and life.

This year, 2005, I figured it had been about 1 1/2 years and my life was pretty much "in order", and I thought I'd start looking around and making an effort to find someone--ya know? Not in that desperate sense, but more in that "Hey, I'm going to open my eyes and look" sense. I don't mean this like a put down, but I sure wasn't expecting anything at 42yo, but hey...can't find anyone if you don't try! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Meanwhile, wolf's soulmate left him--or he left her--or who knows what happened, but now he says he never loved her (sound familiar?). He is being sued by everyone who's money he spent like water. He works 80hour weeks and gets hardly no money for all his efforts. He's broke, alone, and poor frankly; and I have found what I think is the love of my life, I'm rich with love and a job I love and a man I love and kids I love and a home I love.

It's not as if your sparrow will just admit it one day...as if a lightbulb will go off in her head and she will "get it." It will be like a pile of things that gradually add up, and then one day you'll look at her life with OM (if they're even together) and your life, and you'll realize it even if she doesn't. And chances are good that she WILL realize it--years after it's too late. And that is very sad!

Keep the faith, graycloud, and keep warm in the Great White North.


CJ

#1200874 03/17/05 05:24 PM
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Faithful,

I love reading your posts. Was trying to get off of computer when I saw this.

Thanks for sharing it, it is like a breath of fresh air. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

#1200875 03/17/05 05:30 PM
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Aw, J, I'm not finding peace and acceptance. I'm just starting to get a vague idea of what they might feel like.

CJ, I didn't know you had a man in your life. That's good!

Even when I believe all the positives, that I'll be happy, that I can find something like what I thought I had with the sparrow, that life will be great again... even then, I'm sad that I can't be happy with her, that she is not going to be a part of it. That's not because she's so wonderful and irresistible, it's just because I don't want her to carry this regret and sadness that she's likely to be in for, if all this is true.

Yet at the same time, I don't want her to be happy with OM. I can't wish them well, because I don't want it to be a world where people can do this kind of thing and wind up glad for having done it.

GC

#1200876 03/19/05 02:29 AM
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Today's question is...

Does your garden variety WS ever come to understand how much she has hurt the BS?

What C.J. said really gets to me:

Everyone kept telling me that "eventually he'll crash and burn" and literally everything I saw and heard seemed the exact opposite. He had a new apartment, took all the "good" furniture, spent money like it was water, and came home to someone who loved him every night (or so I thought).

Everything I hear about the sparrow tells me she and OM are going about this business just as happy as can be, as if there is nothing at all wrong or unsavory about it. That impression I have of things keeps me up at night, because the people who have caused my pain are ignoring and discounting it. It either doesn't matter to them, or they deny that it even exists.

To have the sparrow ignore how she's hurt me ... it's almost like she's denying my very existence.

GC

#1200877 03/19/05 02:58 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud:
<strong> To have the sparrow ignore how she's hurt me ... it's almost like she's denying my very existence.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi, Gray.

She IS denying your existence. That is how she is dealing with the guilt.

It WILL come home to haunt her. I can't tell you when, but it will happen.

All the best,
Gimble

#1200878 03/20/05 03:20 PM
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Does your garden variety WS ever come to understand how much she has hurt the BS?

My own personal experience with this and with the WSs that I've talked to is that even if they understand how much they've hurt you on some deep level, many of them NEVER take the action necessary to make amends and heal that hurt.

Many of them do. They're usually known as FWSs.

When you're faced with someone who refuses to acknowledge the harm they've done, and who refuses to clean up the mess they've made, then you have learned something. You've learned a great deal about one particular person -- you've learned that that person, in that situation, is unable to be compassionate.

Sounds fairly minor when you put it in that terms, I know. And in fact, I think we all have times when we are unable to feel compassion. It took me a full year to feel any compassion for my ex at all. For that year, I really didn't even consider her human.

On the other end of the spectrum, though, are sociopaths -- those who never have any compassion for anyone, in any situation, at any time.

It's not a good tendency to foster, I would say. And it's something that I've learned to step away from. If someone is unable to act compassionately, I would rather not be around him or her. And if that person is the person who has sworn to put me ahead of all others? Well look at the reality of the situation. Do you -want- to be with someone who could treat you this way? At what point do you stop giving them the chance to hurt you further and take final steps to protect yourself (e.g., end your marriage)?

I don't know good answers to those questions. I do know that many of us here have had to face them, and that the answers have varied widely. For my own self, it was important that I know that I had done everything I could do to save my marriage and DD's family of origin. When I had done all of that, then even though the outcome was not what I had hoped, I had peace. And -- I -wanted- to go on without my ex.

There's no rush to get there. You'll know where you are in each day, and eventually life will turn in one direction or the other. It's just a matter of time.

#1200879 03/20/05 11:58 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud:
<strong> Today's question is...

Does your garden variety WS ever come to understand how much she has hurt the BS?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">GC, as you know, I've been here FOR-E-VER, and I've known lots of WS's and lots of BS's. There ARE WS's that get it and have some some clue of how much they have hurt the BS. In some ways I am not sure if a WS ever fully comprehends the utter devastation and complete destruction that a BS feels, but I do think that a repentant WS knows that they have hurt someone they love very deeply. I think Finally Learning is this kine of WS--she understands as fully as a WS can without going through it themself. Does that make sense??

I think there are also WS's who don't get it for a while--who leave their homes and spouses and families "for the love of their life" and then something happens and they realize that it was all an illusion...a fantasy...and now they have lost EVERYTHING for a fake! Yes, it takes them a while to understand, but when they do, it hits like a horror. Do they understand how much they have hurt their BS?? Kinda. It gradually dawns on them as they come out of their fantasy...slowly over weeks and months. I think Bob Pure's Squiddy is a bit like this. It continuously dawns on them and hurts them a lot for a long time.

Then I think there are WS's like your sparrow and my wolf. In fact they don't get it and actually make efforts to NOT get it...to prevent themselves from understanding it. They don't WANT to know that they have destroyed lives and broken dreams. They avoid it with everything they have, and do everything they can to deny it and pretend "everything's okay" and justify. It's all about how it LOOKS--not about how it is. But the truth can not be avoided no matter how hard you try to bury it. With all their covering up and pretending, eventually--sometimes it can be YEARS later--eventually the truth does catch up with them, and then they do pay the price. Sadly, I think when a WS like this starts to pay the price, they do eventually get a clue as to how much they have hurt their BS, and by then, it is too late.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Everything I hear about the sparrow tells me she and OM are going about this business just as happy as can be, as if there is nothing at all wrong or unsavory about it. That impression I have of things keeps me up at night, because the people who have caused my pain are ignoring and discounting it. It either doesn't matter to them, or they deny that it even exists.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dear GC! They are living in sewage pretending that it's pudding. And sadly in this world today, when they come up to people with sewage hanging off of them and smelling like waste, no one has the courage anymore to be a true friend and say, "You are covered in sewage! Let me help you clean up!" Instead, they say, "I would rather not be the one to tell them" or "It seems they're okay with it" or "Well maybe sewage isn't so bad"--or even worse: "She has the RIGHT to live in sewage if she wants to! I do!!" Sigh.

She has to work VERY hard to act as if her sewage is pudding, and you keep reminding her that it's horrible, gross, disgusting sewage! So it's not so much that she is ignoring your pain or it doesn't matter to her--it's just that she will do anything to make everyone believe that it's pudding, and if you keep bringing up that it's sewage, she's just going to avoid you. It's not about YOU, graycloud...it is about HER and her convincing everyone that sewage is pudding.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>To have the sparrow ignore how she's hurt me ... it's almost like she's denying my very existence. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Once again--it's not about YOU, it's about HER. It's sad that in our society, such as it is, no one will ever tell her that what she did was wrong...no one will ever say, "Sparrow! What you did was reprehensible. You broke your marriage vows and destroyed the dreams of your future. You are free to choose to do that, but if you do, there are going to be consequences. You will lose your home. You will lose your possessions. You will lose your children. Anything you built with your spouse...he gets it because YOU broke the contract, not him! It was just WRONG!!" It just is not going to happen, GC, because that's not the world we live in.

For now, sparrow is going to get away with it. That's the struggle--she's going to get away with it and NO ONE...not one person...is going to say "What you did was wrong--you can't get away with it". NO ONE is going to stand up and scream, "LOOK AT WHAT YOU DID TO HIM!!!! HOW COULD YOU DO THAT!!!!!" And NO ONE is going to be able to fix that part of you, gray. It's one of those awful things about divorce--it's not complete, and it's not morally just, and you don't get justice and satisfaction.

But when YOU as a man do what you know in your heart is right, and when YOU as a man do the just and honorable thing--that's something. You will know in your heart that you behaved honorably. Carry on with your life, and let your heart heal, and let your life proceed, even with the gaping wound. It seems so wrong and mixed up and backwards now, but the time does come when good does prevail--it just takes a while.

((((GC))))

This is tough, huh??


CJ

#1200880 03/21/05 12:43 AM
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Gimble, J, and CJ... thank you! Yes, CJ, it is tough. This does seem a tricky sort of grief to go through. I hope I don't come across too whiny. I think I'm kind of an idealist, and when the world is slow and ambiguous in dealing out its justice, well, that's a bit of a disappointment.

And to think that my wife is still on balance a decent person, and that it's just this one instance where she's unable to have empathy for people she's hurt... that's also not easy to swallow. I'd feel better about it if she was a sociopath.

J, I think about what you wrote all the time... that somebody who is able to turn off their compassion when it becomes inconvenient is not a person I want in my life.

I don't want sparrow to be that kind of person, and it drives me crazy to have to accept that she is. Even now, with all that's happened, I want her redemption so badly, and I'm powerless to help her get it.

I'm in the middle of watching Before Sunset. So far, it's really something. I like Linklater's pictures an awful lot.

GC

#1200881 03/22/05 12:41 PM
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Had a long meeting w/my attorney today. We ironed out the details of the offer I want to give the sparrow. My lawyer said, based on her conversations with the sparrow's counsel, "My sense is that she's frustrated that it's taking this long, that she's anxious to get it done."

I had that funny feeling again, that hunch that my W really thinks this is all okay, that she thinks it's nobody's fault - an act of god.

I'm gonna try to stop caring about whether or not she'll ever be sorry, but I'm still going to write her that letter when it's done.

GC

#1200882 03/22/05 12:47 PM
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I'm gonna try to stop caring about whether or not she'll ever be sorry, but I'm still going to write her that letter when it's done. GC, your outlook gets better all the time. Be proud of the man you are. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

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