Yeah, the same supervisor who wouldn't let me go to the funeral just took 3 days off for vacation time.

SS - aren't you self-employed?

Spent last weekend alone and was so depressed and lonely, I finally went out and spent a small fortune on new CD's, plants, and candles. I mean just because living in that little house is temporary doesn't mean I can't at least find some joy there.

So I picked up seven new CD's, and OMG two of them just blew me away. Gray, I was getting so bored with every single thing I listened to that I about jumped for joy to hear something that rocked my world again.

Chris Botti's "Italia"...not normally into Botti, but I got some Miles Davis after you mentioned him, and made themistake of getting one that had too much "big band sound" in it for me...but this Botti CD is sooooo nice.

Andrea Bocelli's "Andrea"...my best Bocelli CD to date. Holy eyes of mackeral...it nearly sets my soul on fire, it is that beautiful.

Josh Groban...can't remember the name, a couple of songs were in Bocelli's league and I absolutely love his voice.

Beathovin, five of his symphonies...so so. I am still not able to get into classical, but keep trying. Going to try some of the Sonata's next.

Andrew Rieu, "On the Blue Danube" Too much classical or orchestra or something. But I'm hoping it'll grow on me.

Ray Charles, a 3 CD set. Okay.

BB King, greatest hits. Again, okay.

I don't normally like blues ...LOVE Johnny Lang, though. He seems kind of progressive jazzy blues.

And finally, have been looking for the new Kenny Wayne Shephard CD, mostly because of where he is from and because there is a DVD included where he interviews and plays with a lot of the old backroad musicians from south LA. Haven't seen him in concert yet but everyone tells me he is AWESOME.

So there is my "weaver grocks" post. You reading 2long? Seriously check out the new Andrea Bocelli CD. I bet if you get that as a gift for your wife, she'll be ablaze with amore. You can't possibly help but feel romantic listening to that. I can't read or write a word of Italian, but I can sing along to almost every song on the first two CD's I bought, that's how much I love them. LOL

Oh, and I got the gift set of Luciano Pavorati. We like to play a lot of opera at Christmas time (turned way down low), so am saving that one.

I hope everyone keeps giving their latest music reviews, it's really cool to read what you all are listening to.

I feel one of my phases coming on...

one of those where I inexplicably log in as Q rather than 2, when I think I'm going to go away for a while...

weaver, you and JL were too kind to bb on plan a/b. And I'm not just saying that because he asked me to leave him alone. He's on MB and he's not following the plans at all. That's fine if that's what he wants to do (learn the HARD way), but it sure won't get him what he thinks he wants anytime soon.

Some people just need to learn their lessons the hard way, though...

...what am I saying? I'm still learning after almost 6 years of this stuff.

I've posted on a few other threads (as 2) that caught my interest, but I'm feeling pretty ineffective these days.

Speaking of CDs, I think I said somewhere that I bought my W a couple of Annie Lennox CDs for her birthday last week. We've been so busy, we haven't had a chance to listen to them! And she loves Annie Lennox. Great singing voice. I think she's almost as good as Anneli Drecker. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

-Qfwfq

Well I had a lot of other things to say, but nothing would matter now, except damage control for him.

You cannot win a WW's heart by losing her and your own self-respect. Sleeping with his wife for 2 wks during her brief, illicit (dishonest) reprieve from her OM, in effect killed all his chances. You (I and everyone else) tried to tell him that but because of his own lack of belief in himself and his worth, he would not listen.

I almost didn't post to him because of one, his laziness, his attachement and addiction, and his lack of faith...also his rudeness...but then I read his post and how cocky and sure he is that he can do a Plan B now, (after getting his fix, which as we know is shallow and will only pull him deeper into depression and dispair)...but I think he will crash hard. I fear for his emotional state.

The guys on here don't seem to understand, that by throwing all their self-respect out the window and in effect begging for their wife, they are diminishing their chances in huge proportion.

Plus, her OM wasn't meeting all her needs...a mistake to take up his slack, IMO.

People who give up their values to try and comfort their broken egos, play a losing game.

The broken man with a bruised ego trying to appease his WW, and lapping up any crumbs like a lap dog, is not valuing his marriage, his wife, his family...he is simply trying to unbruise his frail and fractured ego.

Plus, he is unwilling to work any plan "whatever happens happens" or something to that effect.

I didn't feel like throwing it in his face, now. He'll know soon enough.

God, I hope he doesn't read this. Is this wrong to discuss it here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

2long, I have never seen you give advice that was not on the mark. You were just hitting those places deep inside him that were already telling him the same, but he was trying to bury them. Then you come along and keep pulling the wool off. You wre a threat to the wool covering. That was obvious to me.

I haven't heard any Annie Lennox in years. I hope all is well with you.

I think Leonard Cohen discusses this nicely in "I'm Your Man" -


do you remember vnus/mars? Remember how he kept sleeping with his WW and she would leave and then go to her OM's and do the same?

Vnus had lived a life outside of any real value system or integrity for so long (affairs, affair marriage) that he didn't know what was appropriate any longer.

We could see that by doing this he was destroying his chances...it was crystal clear to us, but we couldn't get it across to him.

And now he is divorced.

It happens over, and over, and over, and over on here when a man doesn't stand up and lead. Men have got to be strong in their WW's eyes. They have got to be able to stand up and say NO, this is not okay and I am not your little lap dog.

I don't know why they never listen. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

And, it's been my observation and my experience that when a WW is fence sitting (not really because in her head she has already picked the OM, she is just using the H at this point), and sleeping with both, but lying to the OM about it while discussing it with the H...she will ultimately end up with the man she feels she has to lie to. At least until that ends to.

A woman will go to the man she feels enough fear of losing that she has to lie to him, not to the one who excepts in the broad daylight her disgusting behavior.

He is in effect saying to her, I know you are a two-timing, lying, little ho...not only are you in an affair but now you are sleeping with me behind your oh so wonderful OM's back...he is saying, I value myself so little that I will do whatever it takes to spend a few lustful minutes in your despicable company.

God, it's so obvious.

You said that very well, weaver. I wish he WOULD read that, but he hasn't left his own thread yet. I doubt he ever will.

I realize now, looking back, that I helped prolong the hurt and slow the healing by having "makeup SF" and "gratuitous SF" (my W called it that, once) for so long after d-day. The difficulty is that I can understand bb's pathetic state, because I was pathetic, too. I wanted to do anything that I thought might keep us together, even if it did more long term damage than good.

I really needed to stop that needy stuff entirely, even though it's meant that I don't get many of my "top needs" met at all for extended periods of time. But I've learned a lot about myself in the process. I realize that if something terrible were to happen to my spouse such that she was disfigured or paralyzed or any one of a number of awful things were to happen that we sometimes ask ourselves about here (but really? probably never think seriously about), I would still care for her. Because it isn't her physical person that ever really drew us together in the first place (being able to separate physical from spiritual now, I can see that I did so 33 years ago as well, just never "needed" to put my finger on it at the time). Problem is that, with the LTA, this realization (on the part of both of us) has been buried in turmoil for so long that we forgot it.

I can't even remember the last time we had SF - probably 4 or 5 months ago - but I don't fret over it because I'm better able to focus on the things we are doing together and that can't be used as "excuses" to not recover from the A.

Things are progressing very slowly, still. But they are progressing.

Even though we fully expect my idiot SIL to sue us again. But she and her lawyer fit despair dot com's definition of Stupidity to a tee:

"Winners never quit, quitters never win, but those who never win AND never quit are idiots."

-Qfwfq

It's not the same thing, because your wife was not discussing her illicit affair and seeing you behind the OM's back. It is not at all the same thing.

You may have been acting from fear in certain ways, but you and your wife were not involved in a "love" triangle (with your full knowledge and consent, anyway this is one of the big differences) and she did not leave you and your children to go shack up.

Do you see the difference? It's important.

Your "make up" or "gratuitous" SF helped to bring you back together in an intimate fashion, whether it was needy or not. "make up" SF is very important in marriages.

If we are being bluntedly honest here, I would say that the only thing I could see you doing wrong is not being radically honest. For some reason you want everything to be her idea, for example, taking RM's picture down. And not approaching her for SF... because she said in the past that was all you wanted her for. (which btw is VERY common for women to feel like. I'll get to this more in a second).

You are, in my opinion, by not approaching her for SF, one: being dishonest because you do desire this with her, two: allowing her to continue her distance from you.

Also, you say that you have no fear nowadays and can say and act without fear of her rolling her eyes, or whatever, but you are not asking for what you want. You still aren't shaking things up. Women need a man to be clear, to be confidant and to be manly. You have a GREAT sense of humor, and you LOVE her...I say use those to your advantage to the nth degree.

Do you know what her top five needs are? Are you meeting them now?

She won't meet yours, if you are not meeting hers.

Remember a way to a women's heart is through her ears.

Back to the SF thing. Men and women are so completely, incredibly different in this dept. I had no idea of the depth of this difference until I read "Venus and Mars in the Bedroom". Now I normally can't stand to read John Gray, because he writes like he is talking to three year olds...but this book almost floored me in it's truth. And I didn't even know any of these differences...but once read, I just kept thinking "OMG, that is soooo true". And it is this huge difference that causes women to think "SF is all you want me for" and for men to come off that way to a woman. They just don't understand us and we don't understand them.

I suggest you read it to get a handle on her female mind in this dept....

If GB read it...eye yiyi...well he'd be Don Juan cubed. But he won't. I'm glad I did though, it helps me to understand myself a little bit, and I have a better idea of how not to offend his male ego.

Doing things together and growing together spiritually is really neat though, and a big plus.

weaver:

You're right, it's not the same thing. And I'd like to think that if my W had run off to Mexico, or any other location, with RM, that I would have moved onto other and better things long before now.

The difference is pretty much as you describe, except for the simple truth that her affections were still very, very much divided for a long time after d-day, even though she only saw him once, and with my son, after d-day.

As far as radical honesty is concerned, I believe that I have been when I've had the opportunity in the last couple of years. Usually, rather than evoke a conversation, it causes further withdrawal. It is so hard to foster ANY kind of communication when I get NOTHING in response. Not a word. That kind of thing still happens, particularly if I'm being honest about how I feel about our relationship, or even relationships in general.

Not every time, though, and I try to foster conversations when I can when we DO have RH moments. Usually, it's something she brings up. She's more reluctant to have a convo about something I bring up.

Fortunately, lately I haven't had to do much to bring something I'm feeling to her attention - because she's starting to notice. For example, at least two recent DJs of hers, that were rather insulting to me: I didn't "react" because I knew it would just escalate things. I changed the subject, or stopped participating in the discussion. Both of these times, she went out of her way to show me she felt bad about the direction she'd taken. She did so by being snuggly (which is rare for her of late), but not saying anything. But I will take whatever she can give. For most men, it would be far from enough, though.

Oh, and this morning, she actually thanked me out loud for something I helped her with for a book she's coauthoring about archaeology. I'm good with graphics, image processing, and map making. I've been helping her all along, but I don't remember being thanked like that for a very long time.

I do want her to take RM's picture down of her own choice. And I do take responsibility for not asking her yet. But you should see us these days. We are working so hard on our apartment, getting it ready to rent so it can help us offset some of the payments on the other house, and dealing with the SIL's lawsuit and her mom not talking to us for over a year, that we're just whacked out tired at the end of the day. Things are less fragile between us as a couple than they have been for a long time, but they're still strained a bit.

Anyway, based on the limited communication we do have still, I am somewhat concerned that she may comply with a request to take the picture down, but not be forthcoming as to what other mementos she has of him that I'm not aware of. And frankly, I don't want her to just take it down, I want her to give it to me so that I can destroy it in front of her.

As for approaching her for SF, well, I don't because I'm not interested. Of the past, say, 3 times we've had SF, she's initiated two of them, and I the third (the most recent). I don't consider it "withholding" from her. We're just too busy right now. I do realize that it allows the distance between us to grow, but it really is mutual. If I had to put a finger on it, though, I would actually say that she's been slowly taking more of an interest in me as her partner because I've withdrawn from her expectations or interpretations of how I am with SF. The distance does grow, though. And the only real benefit for me to that is that if we separate, it won't hurt me as much as it would have. I don't know if I've explained myself well.

Do I know what her top needs are? Not really. I could guess, I suppose, but what good does that do either one of us if I'm wrong? I could ask her, I suppose. And maybe soon I will (I've actually thought recently of filling out the ENQs and see what she thinks of my answers). I remember asking her if she would fill them out with me, back in early 2002, and she wasn't interested at all. And for so long after that, even to the present to some hard to define degree, everything R related comes across as educating her, and is ignored. The difference nowadays is that it doesn't bother me when she ignores me. But I don't badger her either. Someday she'll want to talk about R stuff. Sometimes she does, and we do, but it's never in the first person. I do recognize the value of those conversations, though.

Bottom line, she couldn't hear me if she didn't want to. And most of the past 17 years, I don't feel like she's wanted to. Recently, I've noticed that's starting to change. And it may be due to the way I'm handling her sister and her lawsuits. I'm being very tough-lovey on her hiney (except I really don't like her). My position is that she gains nothing by us giving into her ridiculous demands.

I'm rambling!
-Qfwfq

Oh, as for friend whose husband died after 3 week illness, her oldest daughter left yesterday to go back to Zambia. So, continue to keep them in your prayers.

(and that supervisor who wouldn't let me take a couple of hours off to go the funeral took 5 days, not 3, for a vacation. Can you say, "I've lost a lot of respect for him"?)

qformerly2,

I just want to say something briefly and then let you move on to other things.

I know the reason we are here marriage building is so that we can have a great marriage. What that looks like to some may be different for others.

I know there are the days that things are less than perfect and the lack seems greater than the good in your marriage (probably few and far between, but we only get to see the complaints on here for the most part), but it seems to me like you have a pretty good marriage and a very blessed life. You have healthy children, you have been fortunate enough to still be with the same woman who bore your children and who you entered adulthood with, you both have interesting careers, you do lots of things together, you are financially better off than probably 97% of the rest of the world....

It is unfortunate that the SIL would let greed guide her. No wonder your W is not as spiritual as she could be, her family seems to be grossly lacking in that dept.

I don't know, I'd say that you have a good thing going. Some may disagree with me, but their opinions are based on what you say, the complaints about your marriage and not all the positives.

Perhaps it's time to put all the pain and disappointment of the affair behind you and live in the moment. Perhaps it's time to let her know that the biggest gift she can give your marriage is to turn all momento's of RM over to you. It'd be a nice Xmas gift, wouldn't it? Of course you seem to be handling it all just fine.

It's nice to read that things seem to be turning around and she is starting to move towards you again.

33 years together is worth so much. I have been in lots of serious R's, 2long, too many. And believe me, it's not about finding the right partner, or finding a partner that fulfills the E/N's, it's about taking what you have, with the person you married and creating a lifetime of goods and bads and everything in between. You have no idea the importance of the legacy you are giving your children and your grandchildren. In my book, this is just as, if not more important than...well fill in the blank, it doesn't matter what you put in the blank, it's all the same.

On Golden Pond is one of my all time favorite movies, and you have a chance at having what they had at the end of their lives...50, 60 years together...a whole liftime of memories...I can't imagine any possibility of a love greater than that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And seriously, I can't imagine any regrets in that either.

edited to add:

I had to come back and add a disclaimer...

I can say this you, because you have the ability to find happiness...it's your spirituality or your life view...and not everyone does. You can bring happiness from within and turn the bad into good, the whole point of love and marriage. Not everyone can. Some people have to divorce because of abuse, or mental illness of their spouse, or serial cheating, because they can no longer find the light, but that is not the case with you.

Thanks weaver.

It is hard 2 convey all that goes on in our relationship on an online message board. And even if I do list the good qualities about my W and our R, it's only human na2re 2 dwell on the negatives. Oh well.

We got a copy of the letter our lawyer sent my SIL's lawyer, in the mail yes2rday. So, the defecation is in the ventilation. I fully expect she'll sue us again, but if she does we'll toss the agreement we came up with in January and she won't get anything from us unless she wins the suit, and that isn't bloody likely. Plus, we may decide 2 counter file, but that might drag this nonsense on a lot longer. She'd be smart 2 take the settlement and go away, but she's 2 vindictive 2 think of that. And her lawyer is 2 s2pid 2 advise her.

The good news is that she's out of that house, it's sold, and we've fulfilled our capital gains tax responsibilities.

-ol' 2long

Mr. 2 long - a question for you (if you do not mind me continuing to pick your brain)(sounds like a weird meal)

A friend of mine jogs each morning in east texas, b4 the sun rises. She sees shooting stars frequently, but today and again tonight she saw one that had a blue and green tail, which was longer than usual, and longer lasting than usual. I thought it might be parts from the russian rocket, but it seems like maybe not, at this point.

Any idea why the meteors are differently colored today?

I guess I could google it....

Thanks!

far

Hi FAR:

Well, I'm not the most knowledgeable about meteors, but I do know that they can show different colors, depending on their composition. Like the Perseids tend to be yellowish. I've seen those, and some other colors as well. The reason your friend sees them early in the morning is that the morning side of the Earth is facing in2 the planet's direction of motion around the sun, so it's running in2 more stuff on that side (like bugs on a windshield), whereas meteors in the evening have 2 overtake the Earth, so there are less of them (like there are less bugs on your rear window).

Bright meteors are fireballs or bolides (I think these are exploding fireballs, but I'd better look that up), and can often leave trains lasting several seconds. Ever see one light up the landscape like lightning? That's pretty neat.

Sometime in the early 1980's, I was at our astronomy club's observing site for a star party up by Wrightwood (which we renamed "Lightwood" due 2 the increasing light pollution from LA). I was looking down at something, when we all heard someone yelling "looky!" Well, as you know, meteors move pretty fast, so I wasn't expecting 2 see anything by the time I'd looked up and 2rnd around, but there it was - a slow moving meteor trailing magenta chunks and flames behind it. I'd never seen anything like it before. It 2k about 45 seconds 2 get across the sky and disappear over the horizon.

2rned out 2 be a Soviet spy satellite that re-entered the atmosphere and crashed in southern Canada. 42nately, the RTGs were still intact when it crashed. But the Canadians were still not particularly happy about it.

It was one of the coolest things I've ever seen in the night sky, and it was "fake"!

If you ever saw the videos of Columbia breaking up, you'll know what it looked like. 42nately, no lives were lost in the Soviet satellite crash. I cried when I saw the Shuttle videos.

-ol' 2long

Weaver:

Appy says "Hi".

-ol' 2long

2 long -- thanks for the info. I have a couple of "meteor" stories, too.

I was on a flight into Vera Cruz, Mexico one night around 10pm. I was awake, and noticed outside that it looked like the sky was lighting up. I looked out the window on the opposite side - expecting to see clouds with lightning. Instead, I saw a red glowing rock on it's way to the gulf of Mexico. It looked like it was about the same altitude as our vehicle, and I guess it was about eight miles away from us. It was totally wicked. It looked just like the simulations of meteors crashing to earth that you see in movies. My buddy on that side saw the flashes of light (yes - it did light up all of the clouds and our aircraft), but did not look out in time to see the meteor. That was pretty cool. How cool would it be to leave this earth by getting hit by a rock falling from the sky while flying in a plane?!?!?!




About 4.5 years ago we lived in Dallas. One morning I took my kids out because the shuttle was gonna fly by, and I had heard stories of seeing the orange plasma trail, and how it would linger for several minutes sometimes. I had calculated exactly the path it would follow through the sky.

My oldest daughter made visual first. She said "daddy - there it is. It looks like glitter". I thought that i had heard that tiles sometimes come off, and figured that is what she saw.

As it passed by, it kept shedding glitter. Then it broke into two vapor trails, then five, then seven. My wife said "oh my...." and tried to move the kids back inside. My friends and family in East Texas talk about the boom they heard - it rattled their dishes in the cupboards. One friend thinks her son found a piece in their field.

I ran back in to see what the nasa webcast was saying. It was black, and quiet. It was a full ten minutes later that CNN started reporting that the shuttle was running late - that they were expecting it to show up any minute now.

Twas a sad day.


I think both of my brothers saw that Russian satellite, too.

Thanks, 2long, for the education.

far

Everybody get your binoculars and go check out Comet Holmes 2night.

That's an order!

...had an outburst or something and is a million times brighter than it was last week. It did this before...

...in the 1890s!

-ol' 2long

Where in the sky is it?

Yes, where it it?

I checked the probable location, but that part of the sky has high clouds right now.

http://weblogs.marylandweather.com/2007/10/comet_brightens_astronomers_ab.html

Maybe I can catch it in the morning.

SS