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Good morning, mighty warrior! As you can see, it is 12:15am here in the Rocky Mountains, and yesterday was the most glorius autumn day. I am so thankful to have a day in the mid-70's, sunny, with such unspeakably stunning colors. It restores my soul.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Its been a gray autumn day here in England, just like we have seemingly 220 times per year!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Isn't this a bit like moving to the desert and complaining about the heat? OF COURSE it's gray and somewhat misty--you're in England! It would be all wrong if the cricket games and afternoon tea were in dry, bright sunlight, wouldn't it?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
Are the gray and mist contributing to your downer mood (as in, your mood is gray and so is the weather), or is the gray and mist cool and moisturizing? As usual, the gray mist covers the fairies and wood nymphs skippingly spritefully through your back yard. heehee.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She is feeling low as her body seems to have quit since the A ended ! (plumbing issues, she has put on some weight, aches and pains, a case of cellulitis on her nose, tiredness - NO she isn't pregnant !). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is actually a fairly normal physical response. I mean, think about it Bob. During the A there was pretty serious adrenalin pumping (and no, not due to "excitement" but due to lying and covering up and yelling and denying). When the A is over and things kind of get back to a "normal" stage, and she can let down her guard a little--the adrenalin is no longer pumping and BAM! Shut down.
Her body has been holding it's breath...it's like it has been burning the candle on both ends and living off caffeine only! Now, it has had a little "time off" to catch up on lost sleep, and the caffeine-overload is wearing off--and the body just gets sick.
I can't speak for every woman out there, but when I feel blechy like that--and hey, lets face it, at 42yo those little aches and pains creep in--I really like it when someone just sits near me and is comforting...like snuggling gently, holding a hand, hand on a knee, etc. Those kinds of moves mean "I see that you aren't feeling well and I want to baby you just a little."
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I need to talk but not now while she is low. Its only been four weeks since last contact with OM, I'll give her some space. Its not as if life is unpleasant while I wait. Were it not for the spiteful memory of the A, we'd have a perfectly acceptable marriage right now, day by day. Needs to be much much better though.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What do you want to talk about? Why not practice a bit here on MB? I mean, for example, maybe you can hone your intent or clarify your own opinion or position. Do you must want to moan a bit and be comforted? Do you want reassurance??
And when you say "...needs to be much better though..." what do you mean? What needs to be much better? How do you envision "much better"? How can you get there? What would be "much better" to you?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can't remember when I have been emotionally relaxed before that didn't involve my FWW. She has been my quiet place, my earthly refuge all these years.
I need to find a new refuge to move forward with.
I'm not sure I'll ever be emotionally relaxed again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">May I make some suggestions?? Do not turn to your FWW to meet your emotional relaxation needs? Find ways that you can care for yourself such as: yoga or tai chi, meditation, prayer, practicing deep rhythmic breathing, guided imagery concentrating on safety and security and being loved, taking hot baths, and listening to soft music (I know you're a rocker, but throw on some Frank Sinatra and you'll mellow).
As best as you can, define what your emotions ARE and then what would help to comfort those emotions. Are you hurting? What would soothe that hurt OTHER THAN your FWW saying or doing something? What can You do? Write it out? Call a good buddy and talk on the phone? Come here to MB and talk to us? Play? Throw a pity party? it's okay to wallow in it for a prescribed short period, ya know!!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Her betrayal of me is worse because of how much I love her FNCJ. I have never loved her any less than I do now. She knows that too. She just 'got used' to me always being there and attentive, providing etc etc. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay--this makes me vaklempt (a Jewish word that means "choked up"). I don't know what to tell ya other than, I completely understand. In my adult life, my desire to love and be loved by my H never waned--in fact, here it is five and a half years later, and my love for him as a human being is still pretty strong. He still treats me like I'm disposable though, and the biggest betrayal I feel is that I gave my BEST and WHOLE heart to this person, and the value of that was so low. To say that it's discouraging would not begin to scratch the surface.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I still can't believe she did this thing, raped me via our marriage vows. I almost wish I could hate her - life would be easier - but I can't. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you ever heard of the term "betrayal trauma" or "betrayal bonding"?
The phrase "betrayal trauma" can be used to refer to a kind of trauma (independent of the reaction to the trauma), i.e., this definition is on the web: "...Betrayal trauma occurs when the people or institutions we depend on for survival violate us in some way. An example of betrayal trauma is childhood physical, emotional, or sexual abuse."
"The psychic pain involved in detecting betrayal, as in detecting a cheater, is an evolved, adaptive, motivator for changing social alliances. In general it is not to our survival or reproductive advantage to go back for further interaction to those who have betrayed us. However, if the person who has betrayed us is someone we need to continue interacting with despite the betrayal, then it is not to our advantage to respond to the betrayal in the normal way. Instead we essentially need to ignore the betrayal...."
There is an excellent book about this very thing written by Patrick Carnes, called "Betrayal Bonding". Essentially, he writes and documents that sometimes people MUST emotionally bond with the very person who has betrayed them, and one way that people do this is to clearly and plainly see the betrayal but basically pretend it doesn't exist--ignore it, as it were. Furthermore, he suggests that if we learned how to bond with someone who betrayed us when we were children, that sometimes we continue associating betrayal and bonding as adults. Finally, he give suggestions and exercises all throughout the book to help the reader identify if THEY bond via betrayal and how to help themselves stop that rather unhealthy way of bonding!
Bob, my heart goes out to ya. If you are in a seriously downer mood, may I suggest throwing a pity party? If not, I'd suggest a "Care for Bob" weeknight and see if you can't manage to swing a little fun and playtime in there too.
BTW, just for fun, my day today was a doozie! First (get this), my exH is sick and exhausted mentally and physically, and at one point I said to him, "You know I do still love you and probably always will to some degree"--and he replied, "I miss you too". That pretty much sums up our relationship. I love him and understand what mature love means--he misses having someone there to fill the void in his life. Not ME--just someone!
Second, I was the mom taxi today. Took DD to school--then DS. Got groceries; ran errands; went to bank; got gas. Picked up DD and her friends from school--then DS and his friends. Took DD and her friends to the mall to buy a t-shirt. Went to DD's parent-teacher conference. Got home and took DS to school choir concert. Got home and took DD to get film that was developed. Got home and had to pick up son from concert! I think I drove over 100 miles today!
Third, emotionally I stewed a little today. I love my life, my home, my job, my kids--just tired of doing it all on my own when I thought I had a partner. Dogs and cats love ya, but they don't cut it--and kids are angels here on earth but they don't cut it either. Just...blech!
So there ya have it. All the news that's fit to print AND no more threadjacking!
CJ
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Aww FNCJ, to a parochial Englishman your address is so exciting ! " the rocky mountains" Wow ! Dreams of America the Beautiful kept me going when I was a kid growing up in a dour Midlands industrial town. How blessed I am now to visit often and have friends there, yet the beauty, variation and the promise of freedom is still exciting to me ! I'd love to live in the US some day. Maybe we will, God's doing soem weird stuff for me lately !
I'm not so down really FNCJ. I have left my sadness in a bag and put it out for collection with the garbage. I need to enjoy my life a little, its as though the demon of the Affair taps me on the shoulder and tells me I shouldn't laugh or love or commit because I have been betrayed and I could be betrayed again. I need to stow that cr@p. Life without laughter, love or commitment ? I'd rather be dead.
I can see you are correct over my FWWs physical collapse. Mebbe I should stop buying her favourite chocolates and hiding them for her to find ! She just said she felt a little better this morning, and I hugged her and said "A wise friend reminded me that you have been running on adrenaline for four months, baby, no wonder you are pooped now". She hugged me back and said " I guess so. Feels like I have none left".
I'm sympathetic and supportive but won't let her wallow. Its a trend she's always had and she ain't a good patient when she's mid wallow ! I pull her out with humour usually.
I did wonder what she would have done if she'd developed her 'plumbing problems' and facial cellulitis while she was having the A ? Would OM have put up with her PMS and the painful red rash across her nose and STILL utterly love he as I do ? The A was so short he never experienced the 'joy' of my FWWs PMS... only she looking her most glam. He never had the joy of watching her sleep, feeling her 'floppy' when out of a hot bath, having he rcold hads inside his shirt to warm them on a cold winters day.... he knows almost nothing about my baby.
Poor lass, she feels cr@p. Still, I'm aking her to lunch today so she'll eat well at least. Also I convinced her to go swimming. It will do her a lot of good.
Re: talking I need to discuss the affair and her feelings regarding it. Almost all I know has come from OM GF and THAT is HIS side of the story.
Since dropping from the fog she has closed up re: the affair, either because its too lovely and precious a memory for her to defile by airing with me, the betrayed OR because she really doesn't want to 'hurt me' or make me think worse of her by disclosing details.
I think a bit of both is true right now. Time will change that I hope. I don't want to hear how many orgasms etc , just some fog-free reasons, justifications and opinions. Ineed to know where I stand. I deserve better than to be her 'consolation prize' for the rest of her life just because OM blew her out. I love her SO MUCH but I have more self respect than that.
When I say our M needs to be much better I mean that right now our M is like a friendlier version of the one that broke down into an A four months ago. She is still maintaining a seperate social life from me, although she is trying as best she can to involve me in it now.
She has far too many friendships with men to be healthy for a M. She needs to 'plan A' me a little too, and start to deliberately meet MY emotional needs. etc etc.
If I thought we'd never get past this state of M I'd give up I think. I love her too much AND I deserve better than to tolerate mediocrity once more.
In the first 11 years of our M we had a life filled with joy and thunder, a marvellous shared adventure. With the coming of our second child and a 'better' job for me, it started to get humdrum and we edged apart. FWW giving up work to be a SAHM was the first domino IMO. She is just too independent to be happy as a SAHM, however worthy a role that is.
Re: emotional relaxation, Prayer is spiritually calming, music is physically so as is exercise. Emotional relaxation needs other people or good emotional memories IMO. My FWW and kids have provided this in the past, my kids still do , bless them. My parents used to, but now dead.My brother has so many problems in his own M I cannot draw on him for succour. My sister is potty.Re music I am a rocker but LOVE sinatra, and am a fan of all great music from johnny cash, through Tom Waits and Norah Jones to Metallica !
Its a hard thing, this enmotional relaxation thing. I do need to find a way to do it though.
I won't throw a pity party FNCJ, you know enough of my story to see that I wallowed pretty close to the edge of darkenss a few months ago. Ain;t going NEAR there again. uh-huh. Besides which, what have I got to moan about compared to almost ALL active affair folk on this board ?
Your comments concerning betrayal dependency makes interesting reading. I don't see that happening in MOST betrayals - i.e. the ones that don't have pro-marriage BS in them and that end in divorce. Isit liek the 'Stockholm syndrome' where captives bond with their captors ? Bizarre behaviour. I'm not sure I am in there...I WANT but don;t NEED my FWW. I am here because I want to be, not because I have to be. I will mediate on that though, its a interesting dynamic I had not considered.
I'll be fine. I wish I could pop into your local coffee shop, FNCJ, I'd relish a couple of hours with you.
And thanks for giving of yourself for this stranger FNCJ. There are some special people in this place and you're one of them.
My Day ? Up early to make the kids' school lunch and some coffee for me and one for FWW in bed to wake her up...shower shave and REALLY smart casual clothes for my working at home day ( I like to look GOOD most of the time now!).
Took DD to school, returned to a boring conference call. Lots of stuff to work on today, hoping to take FWW to a famous local irish pub called 'MAD O'Rourke's pie factory' for a famous 'desperate Dan cow pie' ( a huge steak and guinness pie under a shortcrust with two huge patry horns stuck out the top!).
See ? Life's not bad if I don;t consider the betrayal.....
Thanks again FNCJ. BTW I think your posts in Zoomie's thread were as helpful and appropriate to him as they were to me. No threadjack ! <small>[ October 13, 2004, 03:51 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>
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FNCJ, my baby's cellulitis is MUCH better this morning and she got back from swimming with an appetite ! We went to a meskin restaurant for lunch and had a really nice time. Like being there with a new girlfriend to be honest, and she with a boyfriend but without the fawning !
Absolutely ZERO relationship talk though., She is getter ever closer about the A. Wants to look firmly ahead not back.
I didn't deconstruct it, just enjoyed lunch with a lovely companion and it was very nice !
I think we are both sick of existential conversations now. The mundane has never seemed more attractive than now !
Need to breathe a little.
{{{fncj}}}
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> …to a parochial Englishman your address is so exciting! "the rocky mountains" Wow! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep—I am the proverbial Calamity Jane of the modern wild west. I can ride, rope and shoot! Haha! Actually, today was an overcast, rather cool gray day here in the Rockies, so I let it remind me of England; however, the Rockies do have one big advantage—when the fog rolls over the top of the mountains, it’s like the very presence of God. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> …I need to enjoy my life a little, its as though the demon of the Affair taps me on the shoulder and tells me I shouldn't laugh or love or commit because I have been betrayed and I could be betrayed again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Amen to that, and I can also say BTDT. Speaking for myself, I do remember feeling pretty guilty the first time I felt JOY after my H moved in with his OW. Somehow, I got it in my head that I was not “allowed” to feel any happiness or enjoyment because my H was having an A—I was supposed to be miserable and in great pain all the time! Heehee. Oh, we BS’s can be so silly! I hereby give you permission to not feel great pain all the time and to feel some happiness. Tell the Affair Demon on your shoulder to shut up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can see you are correct over my FWWs physical collapse. Mebbe I should stop buying her favourite chocolates and hiding them for her to find! She just said she felt a little better this morning, and I hugged her and said "A wise friend reminded me that you have been running on adrenaline for four months, baby, no wonder you are pooped now". She hugged me back and said " I guess so. Feels like I have none left".</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m blushing… “a wise friend” huh? Cool! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
May I make a suggestion? Not all women are this way, but I know I worry about my weight and feel a little “off” when my plumbing is a mess and I’m gaining and I’m bloated and wiped out. My body may CRAVE and enjoy chocolate, but it’s not necessarily the best for me! So, may I suggest buying her favorite (American spelling <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ) trinkets and hiding them around the house…or her favorite flowers and hiding them around the house? And here’s one of my personal favorite little things…a love scavenger hunt! Hide little love notes and clues around the house so that she finds them all day long! These suggestions are calorie-free and may correlate a little better with her physical situation.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Re: talking I need to discuss the affair and her feelings regarding it. Almost all I know has come from OM GF … Since dropping from the fog she has closed up re: the affair, …because she really doesn't want to 'hurt me' or make me think worse of her by disclosing details … I don't want to hear how many orgasms etc, just some fog-free reasons, justifications and opinions. I need to know where I stand. I deserve better than to be her 'consolation prize' for the rest of her life just because OM blew her out. I love her SO MUCH but I have more self-respect than that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’ve recommended to people before that they reach an agreement to ask ONE QUESTION AT A TIME so that it does not feel like an interrogation, but that so some progress toward answering those soul-burning questions is being made. You can ask her one question a day, and she will be transparently honest with you about it…and she can ask you one question a day, and you agree to be transparently honest with her about it. This means that you will answer truthfully, giving her the opportunity to rise to the occasion and respond maturely. Likewise, when she answers you truthfully, you rise to the occasion and thank her for her honesty! Give her a safe place to be honest!
It’s a start.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When I say our M needs to be much better I mean that right now our M is like a friendlier version of the one that broke down into an A four months ago. She is still maintaining a separate social life from me, although she is trying as best she can to involve me in it now.
She has far too many friendships with men to be healthy for a M. She needs to 'plan A' me a little too, and start to deliberately meet MY emotional needs. etc. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob, remember that a boundary is placing a limit on YOU, not a limit on her. She has to want to end her friendships with men—not be “forced” to do so by you. Just a reminder! But good for you, that you recognize that your marriage is just a friendlier version of the one that lead to an A!! If you ignore the problems, they don’t go away, and at some point they are going to have to be discussed and solved. Well, maybe the Emotional Needs Questionnaire would be a place to start—give her a chance to tell you what her needs are and share with her what yours are!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Re: emotional relaxation, Prayer is spiritually calming, music is physically so as is exercise. Emotional relaxation needs other people or good emotional memories IMO. My FWW and kids have provided this in the past, my kids still do, bless them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is my personal opinion that children are earthbound angels. Period. But Bob, you are in a new period of your life right now. Make some new memories—happy, warm, loving, relaxing memories. Create new traditions…like every Thursday is meatloaf night, or every 5th of the month is “paint her toenails” night—anything that is giving your emotions a little fun and time off.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Re: music I am a rocker but LOVE sinatra, and am a fan of all great music from johnny cash, through Tom Waits and Norah Jones to Metallica! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I don’t know about you, but Ol’ Blue Eyes always has my number—he can ALWAYS settle me down. Of course, I don’t think of music as a way to “make” me feel—more like a way of expressing what I’m feeling. If I’m hacked off, I pop in a little Linkin Park and shout obscenities while I vacuum. If I’m angry, I drive down the freeway, roll down the windows, and scream along to Queen. If I’m sad there’s nothing like the blues. If I’m feeling melancholy and bluesy romantic, “Unchained Melody” always makes me cry. See?? It expresses!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I won't throw a pity party FNCJ, you know enough of my story to see that I wallowed pretty close to the edge of darkness a few months ago. Ain’t going NEAR there again. Uh-huh. Besides which, what have I got to moan about compared to almost ALL active affair folk on this board? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep—I remember. We don’t need to go there. But Bob, you have as much right to moan as anyone else who’s here and alive. People go through the pain that they go through, so if you are hurting, you have a right! The person who just found out hurts…the person who’s WS won’t end the A hurts…the person who’s BS can’t forgive them hurts…and the person who’s WS won’t meet their EN’s also hurts.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'll be fine. I wish I could pop into your local coffee shop, FNCJ, I'd relish a couple of hours with you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well in your honor I will hoist a pint of Guinness.
CJ
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FNCJ, its all good. I'm much less serious today.
I realised its not a sin to be less earnest and to NOT let the affair in the past affect my every thought and action today.
As a result had a pleasant evening last night and a pleasant day today so far.
I mustremond myself there is NO RUSH. The A is dead, FWW and I are getting along pretty well, better each day. We have a lifetime to fix our marriage and heal our wounds. The A needed stopping ASAP, but the rebuild MUST take place at its own pace IMO.
I will review FWWs receptiveness to R debate in a month to see if its OK to discuss.
You make a good point about asking question sone at a time. Right now FWW doesn;t want to answer them. She says " you don;t need to know". Whether this is because she doesn't want to hurt me, she is scared I'll love her less if I have details OR becaus eshe still has pain of grief for OM's loss I dunno.
In any case I won't get my Qs answered now, so its better I spend my energies living in the day, loving my FWW and making her feel accepted and wanted IMO.
Re plumbing, yes FWW 'bloats'at times during her cycle, but she has also put on a little weight. She's not down the gym five times a week and karate training five times per week now is she. She's cuddling on the big sofa with me, bowling and swmming with me & the kids and other good stuff instead.
She's not dying the grey outta her hair and straightening it everyday either !
It was really hard work for FWW to be in an affair for sure. And all that was poo, she's a lovely 40 YO girl, she doesn't need to 'compete' with 32 YO glamourpusses like OMs GF. Only in her mind I guess.
She must feel like cr@p warmed over physically, emotionally and mentally right now. Still I can do no more. Its up to her to recover as she can.
Now I feel bad BUT!!!!! Physically I am stronger, fitter, slimmer than in years - I made sure the 'infidelity diet' did me some good by getting down the gym like friend Gimble suggested. My confidence and independence are also pretty high. Emotionally I'm tired, and also I'd love a break from thinking !! I've dealt with so many huge decisions lately I could use a brain fart to rest a while ! :)I will use my strength to carry FWW through this bad time.
So no pity party for me. I'm doing good for now. Sure I'll moan here from time to time, but I'm in a place I never DREAMED I would ever reach just a few months ago.
Regarding your comment about my 'forcing' FWW to drop or change her friendships with me, if you knew my FWW you'd smile ! she is not a person who is forced to do anything. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
But in truth I can tell her the risks, that I am hurt and she must do what she thinks is right for our marriage. That was my mantra when she told me foggy decsions: "I cannot control your actions, you must do what you think is right". she HATED that. Even in teh fog she knew A-supporting actions were not 'right'.
I can only hop she feels teh same about stuff now. In truth she has moved voluntarily a lot. I get invited to every karate event, been asked to attend the fitness class on thursday nights, all sorts. problem is I don't want to attend that amoral world with her, I want her to choose something more savoury to do with her time instead. BUT its a big effort for her to want to involve me in her previously sacrosanct karate world.
She is coming around in time. Thats why I think i can afford to lighten up a bit and just enjoy being with her and the kids.
Theres a potential sh1tstorm breweing as OM GF tells me that OM has told karate friends about his A with my FWW and they are becoming the gossip of the sport. I had nothing to do with THAT exposure however, so I will stay quiet and help FWW when the storm hits. I'm only bothered becaus emy kids attend her karate club. I don't want them to hear any rumours.
Strange days.
Thanks again FNCJ.
Theres autumn sunshine streaming through my windows here, showing off the dew diamonds that bejewel the cobwebs on the bushes in my front garden. Its a beautiful day, and for the first time in ages my mood matches the day. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
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