My BS/WW and I agree on one thing:
My infidelities were rooted in low self-esteem and ego, a form of narcissism that caused me to kiss my loving wife goodbye and as soon as I got in the car call up one of my GF's and talk for an hour while driving to a show where I would meet another GF and have sex with them later.
I am seeking IC for this issue.

So...
It has been suggested in a previous thread:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=033078

that I execute a psuedo-Plan B, pulling back from her emotionally when she returns from her weekend with OM.

But...
How do I do this and not lead her to believe I have moved on, and am not interested in her anymore?
One accusation that is still hurled at me is "I don't necessarily believe you've stopped contact with OW"...even though I have...and I even quit my band to make it even MORE apparent!

I've been trying to show my W that I love her more than anything and want her back.

So if I cut off from her except for "logistical reasons" (her words in most recent email, see thread above), won't that make her say "oh, see, I guess I was right, he never was into our M, look how easily he cuts me off, I'm going to OM because he's attentive! Besides, he's probably just substituted the attention I've been giving him with OW anyway!"

Doesn't she hope that I'll grovel and beg to demonstrate my sincerity?
Doesn't pulling back indicate to the S that their S really ISN'T interested in rebuilding?

<small>[ October 15, 2004, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

VnusMars your WW is so fogged up that you could be the Pope and she would still be saying those same nasty things about you. Accept the fact that she will try to use everything to justify her affair and don't worry about what she says or doesn't say in her foggy mind because you have no control over her feelings. Please read my post[as well as the other MBers] to understand why groveling and begging is counterproductive.

I know you are probably looking for an outside source, and new perspective on this, but I'm gonna hit ya anyways...

She is gonna state a ton of crap to you right now to manipulate your emotions, keeping you baited. Tools for her to keep her affair going...plus, it's so easy to justify to yourself when you can just blame someone else that caused you all the pain so, it's okay. Look, I don't care if she has made up her mind to be divoriced...if the papers aren't signed off on by a judge, she is still married. Now, I can't (obviously) speak for God because perhaps in his eyes, since she is doing this post your affairs, she may be 'clean'...rofl, of course, then again, she is having sex out of wedlock, so BUSTED. Yeah, she is just trying to self justify, don't settle for it, don't respond to it. How much more rattling would it be for her if in your conversations, instead of this downtrodden attitude you keep giving her, poor me VM, I'm hurting... why don't you just shake your hear at her, and give her that poor you face instead. Look at her disapprovingly, not disgusted, but just concerned. A slight pursing of the lips, with wrinkles at the corners of your mouth, a downturn of your eyebrows. Think about this, her actions should disgust, upset, and depress you...do you show her these emotions visually in how you communicate? I know you don't...that was rhetorical. You emotions on your face are always, I'm hurting so badly and miss you so badly and am sorry for hurting you.

I know its tough, and I can't promise you the outcome...but, is this life the way it is now what you want? How long do you want to live this way? Look, no matter what anyone else does to or against you, ultimately, your walk in life comes down to how you respond to those situations. How she has responded is wrong, she knows it, but isn't ready to admit it.

Let's talk about OM. Do you know this guy? Is he married? (Don't believe what she says, find out for yourself.) If he is, well, then you have a nice avenue to attack on that, exposure to his wife. If he isn't, well, then really, all you can do is sit back and wait on him to screw up on his side...he will turn pressure up on her...HE IS ALREADY. Those words she sent you of hatred, those are being fed to her by him. She conveys her anger towards you to him, and he feeds her by stating how terrible you are, that is his niche, his hook into her. He makes her feel better by painting you as the evil guy, and that she is clean in her actions because you were such a bad husband. Wrong, but it works for him.

How do you know what will come? You don't. But, you know what. When you realize, that your actions right now, will not change your wife's feelings to ones of love for you right now, you will finally start to get it. All of right now is about each of you individually coming to grips with yourselves. The point is you are learning to be lovable... but, at some point, she is gonna have to realize, love crosses past emotions. At points in your marriage, you aren't 'in love', and yet, you still operate as though you feel those emotions, because you choose to do what you know, not what you feel. [agape] Right now, you can love your wife by not giving her yourself. If she leaves you because she doesn't know your actions, guess what? She is lying to herself still, you are there, at home, walking right, but living your life. You are willing to be 100% accountable to her, but, she has to come home to be able to sense this. It's not your fault she is choosing to be gone right now. In your plan b, make yourself available to her in a sense. give her an intermediary that she 'trusts' which can contact you at anytime, and which you will stand accountable to. (maybe a pastor?) Be sure that it is someone you trust, as this person could undermine your efforts very easily. -small story, the OM tried having a girl call my house at one point, pretending I was seeing women while my wife was in her apartment, that was the only time I let loose. He was now trying to manipulate my walk, and was lying about me by decieving my wife about what I was doing...I threatened him at that point (through her), and since I was clean on my walk, I took other means like having her immediately *69 the number and stuff like that to prove my innocence. Point here, if the intermediary is not on your side, you could hit hard times quick.

Make a plan, quit plodding along.
Hang in there.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by RookKev:
[QB]
Let's talk about OM. Do you know this guy? Is he married? (Don't believe what she says, find out for yourself.) If he is, well, then you have a nice avenue to attack on that, exposure to his wife. If he isn't, well, then really, all you can do is sit back and wait on him to screw up on his side...he will turn pressure up on her...HE IS ALREADY.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm pretty sure he is NOT married. When she goes to the East Coast, she stays with him at his house...probably difficult to do if he were married. And he's taken her all over, I've seen pictures from a trip to NY, his house, etc. But, I suppose stranger things have happened.
I can't figure out exactly HOW I would find this out anyway.

As for the pressure - yes, he has turned up the heat. But then he also has backed off too - I'm not sure what's going on there, just because I only know what she tells me.
On one hand, she says "notice he hasn't called/texted me all weekend?" (the weekend I was with her)...and she said it in that "he can be a jerk" kind of way, one more negative thing she's said to me about him.
But on the other she says "he's in love with me and wants to spend the rest of his life with me and thinks I'm worth it and that I've been screwed by a f***ed up person"...or is that just hateful fog talk, I wonder.

At any rate, he still lives 2000 miles away, AND she has given me some pretty clear indications that she's not IN LOVE with him, that he's a good guy who is being put through the wringer of her issues and emotions, that he may not be the perfect man for her.

We shall see. I have always planned on letting that R run its course.
She said something very interesting to me on Monday night that I just can't figure out - she basically said that she can "observe my growth and change without being influenced by him" - meaning that she thinks her R with OM is totally separate and unrelated to her watching me grow and change and eventually believing in me again.

Obviously, when she comes to that realization, she knows that OM has to go, but...I just find it odd that she thinks she can stand back, heal herself, and watch my progress with hope that I can change, and still be with OM in the meantime.

Fog talk?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Right now, you can love your wife by not giving her yourself. If she leaves you because she doesn't know your actions, guess what? She is lying to herself still, you are there, at home, walking right, but living your life. You are willing to be 100% accountable to her, but, she has to come home to be able to sense this. It's not your fault she is choosing to be gone right now. In your plan b, make yourself available to her in a sense. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Interesting point. I guess I have a hard time backing off because I fear losing her so much. I spend so many waking hours posting on MB every tiny detail on which I have attached some hope or some despair.

FYI...she is not GONE right now, she makes these monthly 3-day visits to see him but is mostly home...which is a few blocks from both of our places of employment as well as the house where I am living with friends now. Helps facilitate some regular contact.

Alright...I'll cut back contact and see how I do. I guess I HAVE always been to dependent on her, too dependent on others, for my validation, and my out-of-control dependence on others is what led to my A's.
So...backing off is hard. I feel so good when I'm with her and so devastated when she says she doesn't want me around.
I'm also facing this new wrinkle: I just quit my band, so I'm looking at a weekend with NO shows, and NO BS/WW to occupy my time and make me feel good. I'm going to have to do it on my own. Very scary.

FYI - I am seeing an IC next week, a new one - I've been going to one but mostly we've only talked about "The Story" and haven't been able to delve into my self-esteem issues.
And even better....this IC was recommended by my W's IC when he refused to take me on himself because of the dangerous dynamic.
So from my W's perspective, I am scoring points on that one.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by VnusMars:
I'm also facing this new wrinkle: I just quit my band, so I'm looking at a weekend with NO shows, and NO BS/WW to occupy my time and make me feel good. I'm going to have to do it on my own. Very scary.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Didn't you say in one of your posts that teaching was your first passion? Why not consider volunteering for a worthy cause during the weekends where you could possibly teach? Wouldn't that give you a sense of purpose and validation as person?

<small>[ October 13, 2004, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by VnusMars:
I'm also facing this new wrinkle: I just quit my band, so I'm looking at a weekend with NO shows, and NO BS/WW to occupy my time and make me feel good. I'm going to have to do it on my own. Very scary.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Didn't you say in one of your posts that teaching was your first passion? Why not consider volunteering for a worthy cause during the weekends where you could possibly teach? Wouldn't that give you a sense of purpose and validation as person? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes...I actually am starting to build a bank of private music students and I do have one on Saturday.
I also have considered volunteering for something worthy, such as the Humane Society, since I LOVE LOVE LOVE animals! I just sent in my application, so maybe that will help <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by VnusMars:
<strong> [I also have considered volunteering for something worthy, such as the Humane Society, since I LOVE LOVE LOVE animals! I just sent in my application, so maybe that will help <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is fabulous!!!!! You must be feeling pretty good about yourself these days! I know that missing your wife is hard- but YOU are doing so well!

Back to my original post and question:

What IS the best way to react to her under a pseudo-Plan B?
I have spent so many years being attentive and loving and warm and caring towards her - and yes, our M was definitely filled with LOTS of love and emotional fulfillment, support, SF, etc. - my A's and her growing distaste for certain aspects of me that she used as reasons for her A notwithstanding...

I don't think I know HOW to emotionally detach from her.

</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What if she calls and is obviously being very caring and loving? Do I respond in kind, or act matter-of-fact and distant, and short?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What if she asks me to come over to either help her with something or just to hang out?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What do I say if she tries to pull me into a discussion about our M, my A's, her A, anything heavy and deep?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Isn't it being dishonest with myself and with her to act in a way that I don't feel?</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Obviously right now when she is loving, I soak it up, and when she's not, I apologize and hang my head in shame.
I know I'll feel TERRIBLE if she wants my love and I deny it to her, like I missed an opportunity to fill her LB$.

I'm not losing ALL contact with her, by her own wishes, and honestly by mine. I'm not ready for a full-on Plan B when this Plan A has only gone on for a month.

Is this really a pseudo-Plan B at all, or is some form of emotional detachment a part of Plan A?

HELP!!! Obviously this is the hardest thing yet for me to do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ October 13, 2004, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

Back to my original post and question:

What IS the best way to react to her under a pseudo-Plan B?
I have spent so many years being attentive and loving and warm and caring towards her - and yes, our M was definitely filled with LOTS of love and emotional fulfillment, support, SF, etc. - my A's and her growing distaste for certain aspects of me that she used as reasons for her A notwithstanding...

I don't think I know HOW to emotionally detach from her.

</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What if she calls and is obviously being very caring and loving? Do I respond in kind, or act matter-of-fact and distant, and short?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What if she asks me to come over to either help her with something or just to hang out?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What do I say if she tries to pull me into a discussion about our M, my A's, her A, anything heavy and deep?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Isn't it being dishonest with myself and with her to act in a way that I don't feel?</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Obviously right now when she is loving, I soak it up, and when she's not, I apologize and hang my head in shame.
I know I'll feel TERRIBLE if she wants my love and I deny it to her, like I missed an opportunity to fill her LB$.

I'm not losing ALL contact with her, by her own wishes, and honestly by mine. I'm not ready for a full-on Plan B when this Plan A has only gone on for a month.

Is this really a pseudo-Plan B at all, or is some form of emotional detachment a part of Plan A?

HELP!!! Obviously this is the hardest thing yet for me to do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ October 13, 2004, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

BUMPing myself...I'm really sorry to do that...I'm desperate for some help, very rough weekend coming up!
See above...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I would keep plan A in your case. Why ?. She was angry at her world and she blamed it on you. You have huge part on this and you seems working on this. Now her world is not any better and you are still the target rather than the soft place to land.

Sorry to say this but your prognosis is not that good and you will make it worst by pulling back. You have defied the odd of consuming your A to M (3%). However you also self destruct afterward. This is my guess, your WW is angry at you for getting her involve way in the beginning. In all of your post there is no acknoledgement from her that you have changed. That is the requirement of successful plan B. If you withdraw now you just reaffirmed her believe.

What to do ? ... salvage your sanity. How ?. Plan A 'till the end and hope she doesn't filed. Show her that you are a changed man and also there is future happiness in the horizon (if she choose to come back).

Plan the seed and have faith. Make yourself an attractive option and safe place for her to land.

Good Luck.
-rh-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by redhat:
<strong> I would keep plan A in your case. Why ?. She was angry at her world and she blamed it on you. You have huge part on this and you seems working on this. Now her world is not any better and you are still the target rather than the soft place to land.
What to do ? ... salvage your sanity. How ?. Plan A 'till the end and hope she doesn't filed. Show her that you are a changed man and also there is future happiness in the horizon (if she choose to come back).
-rh- </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for your point of view...
The only thing I can't figure out is this...

How do I continue Plan A when she says she doesn't want to talk to or see me?
I've been doing a pretty good Plan A, and it's had some positive effects, up until last night's email. But that's when she was allowing me to talk to her every day, emailing, instant messaging, phoning, and lately, coming to the house to take care of things but also see her, and hanging out with her all last weekend.

Now she says "leave me alone." I don't know how I can continue to Plan A if she's going to refuse my contact!

Vnus -

I was in two situations like yours, first with my DD's dad who is a musician and had many ONS and short affairs, probably for the same reasons you did. He was the love of my life, and I still love him but now as a friend and coparent, but as I said in a previous post to you, I never was able to convince myself that he would be faithful. I did not want to spend my life competing with his band life and barfly women friends. He loved me, but was not able to convince me he could be committed, although he is now to his current wife. He changed and regretfully it is too late for us.

Second sitch was my ex fiance who was married when I met him but kept it from me (he was working in my town) until his WW called my nephew eight months after and told him my fiance was already married to her. We are back together but it has been one hell of a ride. I was angry for 2 1/2 years about him being married when I met him, selfserving liar that he was.

I know of the anger your WW feels. She is hurt and she is scared and she is still in love with you. It shows in her emails that you have posted from her. She would not be this angry if she was in love with her OM, she is angry because she loves you but she is scared you are not capable of loving her back.

Do not grovel, do not beg because it seems insincere. It seems selfish just like everything else you have done up to this point, a ploy. You want her back and are willing to do anything to get her back. This is self serving and what she is talking about.

Yes she is also in fog land and justifying her actions, blaming them all on you which is wrong but part of the affair fog.

You need to take this for awhile because she needs to dish it out. You need to Plan A for awhile, however do not be a doormat because that seems self serving. Show her what you are made of by being a strong, good man. Do your volenteer work, and teach your music and DO NOT have any relationships with other women. That will kill your chances.

However, like Rookkev says you only need to do this until it becomes clear to her what you are made of . That you have changed. And after that you need to say no more to her and let her come to you, because she has some stuff to prove to you also. You were in this together, you cannot take the blame forever.

Set a time limit on your Plan A.

And I hope for her sake that you truly are changing and this is not just a ploy to get her back. (that's the damaged part of me talking, sigh)

One more thing in my opinion you should be nice and caring when she calls you, if she is. If she is nasty, excuse yourself and hangup in a polite way. Do not pursue her because she pretty much told you to back off.
If she emails you and the emails are nice and decent, respond back in kind. If the emails are ugly than ignore them, do not respond unless they are decent.

Weaver

WEAVER:

Yours is the first post I've read that has actually brought tears to my eyes.
You are SO right on the money with everything you said.

I HAVE been selfish, focusing SO much on getting her back that I'm only proving her right that I'm more concerned with my ego (this will be the first time in my life that I'VE been dumped) than I am with healing my deep-rooted psychological issues.

I wouldn't say it's been a "ploy" - I DO love her and I DO feel like she is my soulmate...but I HAVE been focusing my energies in the wrong direction.

QUICK - HELP!!!!
She didn't email me all day, true to her email from last night. She is now on MSN Messenger, has been for 15 minutes, she could have gone to "appear offline" since she sees me online but she hasn't.

Should I write her a quick note? What should I say? I'm so unsure of what I should do...if I IM her will she see it as further proof that I'm being clingy? Or if I just say "Hi there, hope you had a good day" is that what she might WANT me to do right now???

And Plan A is about changing you. You do not need to contact her to Plan A her. You need to prove the changes you are making, first by doing them. She will find out.

Plan A'ing means losing your bad behaviors and developing good ones. You don't need to be calling her or emailing her to Plan A.

She'll see the changes by your reactions when she calls and emails you, and by you leaving her alone like she asked. This would be Plan A, leaving her alone if she requested it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
<strong> And Plan A is about changing you. You do not need to contact her to Plan A her. You need to prove the changes you are making, first by doing them. She will find out.

Plan A'ing means losing your bad behaviors and developing good ones. You don't need to be calling her or emailing her to Plan A.

She'll see the changes by your reactions when she calls and emails you, and by you leaving her alone like she asked. This would be Plan A, leaving her alone if she requested it. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks Weaver...
I hope she DOES contact me. I had a HORRIBLE day today, checking my email at work to see if she'd written, waiting for my cell phone to ring, and when it did, hoping it was her but it wasn't...
And now she's online on MSN Messenger and I'm DYING for her to write me.

But then I realized...she's not GOING to write or call. And she might not tomorrow. And I know she won't Friday-Sunday since she'll be on the East Coast with OM. But then on Monday...she might not then either.
It's KILLING ME!!!!!

But I will leave her alone. You're right. If I don't respect her wishes, she will only see me as more of a narcissist than she already sees.

So I'm just going to sit here in "online" status myself so she's knows I'm sitting here, aware of her presence, and NOT contacting her. A staring contest of sorts, if you will.

FYI...I DID purposely put down our "home" number, where she and MIL live, instead of my cell phone number...when I submitted my application to volunteer for the local Humane Society. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Indirectly, she's going to see my progress, dammit! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ October 13, 2004, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

That's it Vnus, your on the right track now.

Give her what she wants and let her see what a good guy you really are.

She'll be wondering really soon what you are up. Give her a chance to wonder.

Women like men who are strong. She wants you to adore her, but be strong and not take her ****.

You'll figure it out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
<strong> That's it Vnus, your on the right track now.

Give her what she wants and let her see what a good guy you really are.

She'll be wondering really soon what you are up. Give her a chance to wonder.

Women like men who are strong. She wants you to adore her, but be strong and not take her ****.

You'll figure it out. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks again for the encouragement, Weaver. She's come on and offline all night and not a word. But she knows I'm here. We'll see.
I am supposed to come to the house this weekend to take care of the cats while she is with OM (MIL is also out of town), so I'm sure I will hear SOMETHING from her before Friday, we shall see what it consists of.

BTW...I have started to work that quote into a song, I posted it on a separate thread...thanks so much for that...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by VnusMars:
<strong> Indirectly, she's going to see my progress, dammit! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">hmm ... the censorship missed that d****** word. LOL!. You 've got it.

I would make a list of 3 columns. First column is what she was complaining about you that has merit. Second column is what are you going to do to mitigate that prespective. Third column is for your note to monitors you progress. This would be your plan A list of actions <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

Print out ENq and LBq, fill it up as if your wife is fillin it. Guess her top 5 ENs and her LB'ed points, the order are not important.

-rh-