]Well I am very curious about all of this. Do you feel attracted to men or women or just the person, whether male or female?

Hi weaver! Sorry to take so long to answer this one. I lost the thread for a bit. I feel different attractions to men and women. With men, I’ve found that the physical attraction is usually stronger, while with women, the emotional attraction is stronger. I’ve only been involved with one woman – but it was a relationship that lasted for fourteen years. I’ve been involved with several (err, I’m not going to name how many) men, with the relationships lasting for shorter periods of time, though some of those also lasted for years. I’ve never lived in a monogamous long-term relationship with a man, though. (I’m only 37, for pity’s sake! I haven’t had time for everything yet. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

I am thinking, but having been ill most of the week, it has been dificult for me - and I haven't posted all week.

Oh dear, I’m tempted to tease you and ask if thinking isn’t always a bit difficult? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I do hope you feel better soon, though. Being sick is never any fun. Though my DD gets to watch extra videos and eat ice cream when she’s sick, and that’s kinda fun.

How did the party go? Been waiting for you to tell about it.

Ooh, thanks for asking, SS. I should’ve thought to report on that. It was a lovely time! Let’s see… in order of arrival:

Cerri and Cerrish and ISGirl showed up first. I picked them up at the airport and we had a lovely drive back to my place. Cerri and ISGirl had a contest to see who could get DD to smile first. DD was rather surprised to find herself surrounded by people in the car. (Though she knows Cerri and Cerrish and repeatedly asked me if their dog (Boo) was coming to visit too. Sadly not.)

ISGirl took pictures and is one of the sweetest people I’ve met in a very long time.

Then HoFS arrived, bearing flowers and a love goddess and much tasty baked stuff. The caramel apple cake was my favorite. Other people said they liked the cookies and the chocolate zucchini bread the best.

Then my next-door neighbor and her son, who created havoc with DD. DD and the little boy were really quite astonished at the fire in the fireplace that my brother built.

Then my ex arrived to pick up DD. I had warned her that there would be a party. She seemed a bit perturbed by it all. She doesn’t read here, as far as I know, but she’s seen my profile over on the SYMC site and knows I do this work. I think she might have worried that people would judge her. Someday maybe she’ll understand that Cerri and Cerrish and HoFS are about the least likely to judge her of anyone who’s ever dealt with this stuff. Ah, well.

Anyway, after that a bunch of other people arrived. WAT and his SO brought fresh pineapple and are the cutest things ever. What a sweet couple!

Then my friends Jim and Nina. Nina later said to me, “I felt so left out because there’s never been any infidelity in my marriage. And then I thought, ‘What am I thinking????’” I had to laugh, too. None of us ever asked to be here… but we’ve found a pretty amazing group of people nonetheless.

Greengables got there a little later – she had called HoFS in the middle of the party and Cerri answered and there was confusion and laughter and encouragement to come down from Philly… so she did.

Tak and Kash came, and they’re still a very cute couple, too, and Tak was the smartest person in the room, I think. Good thing Kash is pretty smart, too.

And Pearl came and brought lasagna, which was incredibly good. She looks great – healthy and happy and even her hair is shiny.

After we all ate dinner, the party got quiet and sleepy and eventually broke up. I think everyone had a good time – and I know I did. It was neat to meet so many new MB/SYMCers.

Been thinking (also) about darkness, and light. That's a lot of subject. I'll be back.

I’m looking forward to this one!

This one paragraph gives me more respect for you than I can say. Although I have always held you in high regard on this board, this is such a responsible, forward thinking statement it impresses me to no end.

Gosh, thanks weaver. I have to say, though, that I’m not sure I think of it in such a positive way. Choosing a type of partner based on societal risks? Seems like a less-than-great way to go about such things. Well, perhaps it’s just realistic. But it makes me angry to have to consider the safety of my present and future children when I choose a type of partner. Our society has much work to do when it comes to such things. Much, much work. Still, I can understand your dad’s choice, and also have a great deal of respect for it. I’ve been saying for some time that I do not have time to fall in love with someone and then find out that he or she can’t remember my birthday or have a respectful disagreement. I, too, fiercely resist the idea of falling in love and picking a partner “just” because I fell in love.

That is, I suspect, a conceit. Once I actually fall in love, I will be as stupid and fog-bound as anyone else who’s gone and done it. It makes me very grumpy to contemplate it, and to know that I am utterly vulnerable to anyone I -do- fall in love with. I’m sure a therapist would have a field day with that. But geez, after all the insane things that we’ve seen people do when they’re fog-bound, who in their right mind would want to be in that state? At least until the prospective partner has been thoroughly checked out and vetted by people who are not fog-bound, anyway.

Next time I enter into the world of dating, I plan on keeping sex completely out of the equation. My decision is going to be based on respect, friendship, mutual visions of what our future will hold, and the possiblity of a great love which only comes after the marriage.

I definitely think avoiding sex until after marriage is a good idea. I have sincere doubts as to whether I have the capacity to manage that particular good idea, but I do think it’s a good idea nonetheless. And I really hope that my decisions, too, are based on respect, friendship, shared goals, and commitment. I am not convinced that I, or anyone, is capable of doing that while entering into emotionally intimate situations with people who are also sexually attractive. Infuriating, really.

It took me 20 years to figure this out, and you are helping to reinforce this in my head.

Does that make sense?

Yes, it does! I’ve talked to various other people about it, and they just roll their eyes and tell me that it’s not possible once fairy dust has been sprinkled on me and whoever my mate is. I suspect that they’re right. Lust and romance are powerful biological drives that are hard-wired into us. The fight to make solid decisions while your biology is playing with your mind is … well, I wouldn’t bet on the rational mind, if I were betting.

Good luck JJ, on your dating experience. I wish I knew a great guy to hook you up with (oh who am I kidding, if I did I'ld probably take him for myself )

Thanks weaver! And if anyone does know any great guys (or gals) who live or are willing to relocate to the DC area, let me know! I’ve got 50 dates to go on in the next year, and there are still plenty of slots open.

Yes it is sad that society determines what is acceptable and what is not. Especially since the large majority of society is operating from a belief system based on shortsideness and fear.

However that is the way it is and children take the brunt for the PERCEIVED "sins of the father". Not only gay/lesbian families but interacial families, minority race families and single parent families. Also families whose religious beliefs different from the mainstream religions.

I keep thinking about the movie "Out of Africa" this morning. Not the latest remake but the one with Meryl Streep and Robert Redford. Where the heroin chooses her husband based on what she needs to accomplish her vision of her farm in Africa. The movie was tragic and sad, but the heroin was awsome!

I keep thinking about the end of the movie when as an old women after losing all, Meryl Streep is sitting at her writing desk writing her lifes story.

"I once had a farm in Africa..." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Society, for the most part, also considers divorce an okay solution. That doesn't make it so. I used to say that the most profound political statement I could make was to hold my ex's hand in public -- to interact with her as a loving mate -- to accept the double-takes and stares and occasional nasty comments as part of life.

I find that I want to protect my daughter, though. That there is risk associated with something as simple as holding hands in public makes me wonder a great deal about the larger risks. The Miller-Jenkins level risks. The risks associated with the State (particularly right now) deciding to intervene on the side of the destruction of children's families.

It worries me.

And yet, I find that I am still willing to go on dates with women. Because, after all, I like them. One of them I loved enough to be willing to devote the rest of my life to -- and to fight for that vow long after the rest of the world thought I'd lost my mind.

No different than anyone here who was in a heterosexual marriage, except that the risk of losing my child was real, palpable, and in the end I chose not to lose her even though it may have doomed my marriage. I would do it that way again, but what a terrible choice to have to face.

Bleah. I'm getting thoughtful about the past again. Never a good thing. Instead I will focus again on the future for long enough to say that I've now been on five dates, and am working on scheduling two more.

Of those seven people, so far there are three women and four men. I've enjoyed all of my dates so far. Three were people I could end up friends with and two had sparks. Of the two with sparks, one decided he didn't want to pursue things with me, and one decided he did -- we have a second date coming up sometime soon.

It's fun. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Still thinking about thinking about posting.

What is it about this time of year anyway, lots of fun things to do, but the month goes by in what seems like a few seconds.

Wishing you well. Praying for the same.

SS

<small>[ December 12, 2004, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

At the stroke of midnight, the world changed.

At 12:01am two years ago today, my daughter made her way into the world. I "caught" her. My hands were shaking and my fingers were all tangled and nubbined in the surgical gloves that the midwife forgot to tell me to put on until the last minute.

Then there was the frightened eternity when she didn't breathe and turned blue and they smacked her with those mallets and then suctioned her out and .....

She breathed.

And then I went to the NICU with her while they watched her, and I babbled and chattered and I have absolutely no idea what I said to her. Except that I remember one thing very clearly. "You're a girl. We didn't expect a girl. We don't have a name for you. Is that all right? I'm really sorry. Would it be okay if I taught you to play football anyway? I don't know what to do with a girl. Are you going to want to wear dresses and play with dolls? I don't know how to do that. Oh, hi, I'm Ima. [Hebrew for Mommy; a name I lost in the fire of the destruction of my marriage.] That other one is Mommy. You'll like her."

And on and on like that, a babbling incoherent rush of words that meant absolutely nothing.

I remember the nurse doing things. Pricking a foot? Doing stuff to her eyes? I'm not sure of all of it, though I knew what it was at the time. I remember the midwife coming to see us, to tell me that my ex was all right. I remember her asking very quietly whether the man who was with us was DD's biological father. I shook my head. No. He's -- a friend. [He was OM.]

There was more to that night. There was trying to find an available bed in the hospital, and then in local inns. Since there was neither, nor any stables nearby, I went home to our new house and slept here.

And then I got up and staggered back to the hospital and my ex's family was already there and we made the goofiest incoherent noises with DD.

Then later it was time for the press conference and the newspapers and the TV stations and all those people came 'round and asked polite questions about who we were and where we lived and why we'd moved. They were surprisingly kind and did their best not to be stunned. Two women? New baby of the year? Hey, wait. This is real news, not what we were sent out here to cover.


That was a long, long two years ago. And yet, when I type my name, the name of the town I live in, and 'lesbian' into Google, seven out of the top ten articles are about those precious few minutes of my life. How odd. So much has happened, and so little ever made the papers. I wonder if more will ever make it.


And now it's two years later. Two long, horrific, awful years. Two years when I should have had nothing worse to do than change particularly stinky diapers.

And that two years has drawn to a close.

That's important. It's important because of the following words, taken from the consent custody order that binds me and my ex: "Neither party shall cohabit, legally marry or enter into a domestic partnership or civil union with any other person until DD is two (2) years old."

DD is two today. So I can do all that stuff. Anyone interested? How about a handfasting for a year and a day, starting today? I would love to do that for the pure amusement value of it. Terrible of me, I know. But it WOULD be funny. And I'd keep my end of the bargain.

Anyway.... I'm even more free. I can finally say to my ex this thing that I've been wanting to say. (I'm stealing and expanding on something my cousin wrote. She has an absolutely wonderful way with words.)

You also do this: You cover the altar of the Lord with tears as you weep and groan, because he no longer pays any attention to the offering nor accepts it favorably from you.

Yet you ask, "Why?" The Lord is testifying against you on behalf of the wife you married when you were young, to whom you have become unfaithful even though she is your companion and wife by law.

No one who has even a small portion of the Spirit in him does this. What did our ancestor do when seeking a child from God? Be attentive, then, to your own spirit, for one should not be disloyal to the wife he took in his youth.

"I hate divorce," says the Lord God of Israel, "and the one who is guilty of violence," says the sovereign Lord. "Pay attention to your conscience, and do not be unfaithful."

(Malachi 2:13-16)

We are done. And that's what I want. I was true to you for three long years while you tortured me. I have waited long enough. We are -- I am -- done. I'm not doing it for you. I'm not doing it because you are asking me to. I'm doing it because it is what I want. I declare to the world that I want to be unmarried to you.

I sunder us. Untied. Undone. I unlove you, I uncherish you, I unhonor you. I unlove, unsnuggle, unbother you -- for always. I annul, disconnect, disjoin, sever, dissociate, dissolve, disunite, divide, nullify, part, separate, sever, sunder us. With these words, I thee unwed.

Forever and ever.

Amen.

I AM UNMARRIED.

<small>[ January 01, 2005, 01:22 AM: Message edited by: Just J ]</small>

Just J,

What a profoundly melancholy post....I wish for you blessings and peace in 2005.

I'm going to print those words to give a voice to the ritual I fear I too am destined for.

Is it melancholy? Perhaps it is. For me, it is simply a necessary step. One that I have been ready for, one that I prepared for. I have been with the slow death of my marriage for a very long while. This is simply the most recent acknowledgement of it, the most recent step in what has been a long process. In many ways, this is the easiest of the steps. This is the untying of the knot -- the unbinding of me -- the end of a commitment I made wholeheartedly and with eyes open, but which limited me in more ways than I realized then, in ways that I'm still learning now. It leads to freedom.

Scary thing, freedom. Instead of chafing at the bonds I'd placed on myself knowingly, now I find other limitations and resistances. New ones, ones that I didn't expect. I am limited, now, by my internal fears, my external circumstances, and my sense of ethics.

Working through each of those can be complicated or simple, but I find it wholly healthier for me than trying to work through the rotten core of what was once my marriage. I'm not giddy today. No, it is summer.

For those who know me and have read the summer thread over on SYMC, you know how peaceful and joyous my summer was. And today, on January 1 in Washington, DC, it is summer. Or at least spring -- it's 1pm and 66 degrees. Beyoootiful.

And perfect for my state of mind.

Hi Just J!

Hope the holidays have been good to you, and I hope you got to spend a lot of time with your little girl!

Oh how I miss having a baby girl around, mine is 10 now and she never lets me dress her up in those cute little girl outfits anymore, nor does she hang onto my every word. But boy does she make it all worth while. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Glad to read that you have a peaceful state of mind.

Take care!

weaver

Thanks weaver! The holidays were quite nice, and DD had a lovely time with all the various present-receiving opportunities. One more to go, when I have her birthday party in a week or two. I'm too partied-out to do it right away.

We did get to spend a very nice amount of time together. She's getting to be quite the talker, which sometimes produces quite enlightening and amusing results. For example, the other day when I dropped her off, the conversation went like this:

Ex to DD: "Why don't you go in the bedroom? Aunt C [my ex's sister] is in there and you can wake her up!"

Me to DD: "Oh, yeah, that sounds fun! You get to see Aunt C!"

Ex to DD, as DD is standing there looking puzzled: "Go ahead, you can go wake up Aunt C!"

DD, to Ex: "Go wake up [OM]!"

It was very clear that she wakes up OM regularly ... and was puzzled as to why Mommy was saying to wake up someone else. I practiced my deep breathing exercises at that point. Later I said, I hope calmly, that I was unhappy that my ex encourages DD to interact with OM while he's in my ex's bed.

Whee, the things kids will say.

Oh please make sure that your attorney does not allow your daughter to be with her when OM is sleeping over. He isn't married to her so they will go along with this. He is contributing to the delinquency of a minor since they are not married. JMHO

We'll see what the Parenting Coordinator says. I'm guessing I'll be told to get over it, but we'll see.

I can't do the post I wanted to do, it would never come to me - which is odd for me, but then, some would say every thing is odd for me.

I see you aren't out of the woods yet. Do you like the woods?

I can also see your coping skills have increased, that you seem to have more love in your heart for others.

Are you happy most days?

SS

Now I'm out of the woods. It's been a long journey, but I'm there. There will always be days when I'm sad about what happened.... but for now, I am truly happy with where my life is.

It's amazing what being valued for who I am has done for me. Though I have many friends and family members who value me, it is not the same as an intimate relationship partner who values me.

It is, to be a bit more blunt about it, rather wonderful to have someone who thinks I'm sexy and attractive -- and who makes my lips tingle when she kisses me.

It's wonderful to have all of me be of value to such a person -- the way that I write, the way that I think about life. I remember many long years when one part of me or another was not welcome in my relationship with my ex. Though there was much that was good in that relationship, I can now see the many things that I had to go elsewhere for.

It's also really nice to be thinking about how to make things more comfortable, to be watching the currents in the relationship, and to realize that I'm not the only one doing it. I feel like I'm not the only one paddling this boat. I never knew, in any conscious way, anyway, how much was missing. Perhaps it's unfair to compare the last several years of a relationship to the first few weeks of one. In fact, I know it is. In spite of that, though, it seems to me that there's potential here for good things that never were options before.

This new person (NP?) doesn't remind me of my ex. No... she reminds me of someone else. She is, in many ways, like a dream of him come alive and made female. I sometimes have the oddest sense that he and I conjured her up somehow in the things we did, all those years ago.

I like her.

I like that she likes me.

And I've put the rest of the 50 dates on hold for now. Because I'm having so much fun going on dates with this one.

Out of the woods...
and soon the cherry blossoms will bloom...
and fill you with that renewal that only spring brings....

can't help but humming TRUCKIN by the GRATEFUL DEAD when I read your posts...

what a long strange trip its been.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

happy for you....

and atleast I don't hum...

"Like a rollng Stone"...by Dylan...when I read your posts....

"with no direction home...like a rolling stone.."

maybe you are heading home....

sure hope so for you....

you sound good and strong...and mostly you sound happy...

and you should know most every time I read your posts justJ+who?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> i usually end up crying...what is that about you that you bring out such stories from people....


ARK

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Funny how some people do give us certain visualizations of who they are. Since we don't know them, have never seen them and have only their written thoughts to go by, I believe that we get the "true" essence of who they are.

I always picture JustJ as Meryl Streep in "Out of Africa" sitting there at the end of the movie at her writing desk writing her life story.

"I once had a farm in Africa..."

Ark sees you as a rolling stone, not quite so different than my vision really.

NO WEAVER

NOT as rolling stone..

SHE's the GRATEFUL DEAD..

sheeesh I am not the one that is easily confused...

ARK

ps...she's probably more mary chapin carpenter...or mary from peter, paul and mary...

Just J...
It's time for you to enjoy yourself!!!!!! Have fun!!!!!

T~

Just J...
It's time for you to enjoy yourself!!!!!! Have fun!!!!!

T~

Hi, good to hear/read you.

What a great upturn in your life.
Lord knows you have earned it.

Loved the part about watching the currents in the R and realizing you're not the only one, that there is more than just you paddling the boat.