Bob,

I NEED her to be sorry for her A and say so. I want her to recognize my efforts in saving our M so far. I do not think I am unreasonable in this. I am a BS doing the best I can to choke down existential hurt, not a saint and NOT a doormat.

Does she know you need this? Or are you expecting her to just do it?

RG

TTSI, she HAS talked a lot about us during withdrawal but since OM dumped her - nothing,nada. When I say that we need to talk over this stuff she says "don't start that again !".

The dynamics have changed or are changing within her concerning the A and our relationship IMO. While she still had some hope of ending up with OM she could say things to me that she thought would hurt me and not be too concerned.

Now I am the last chicken in the shop, she doesn't want to do anything but play pretend happy families it seems. She needs time, I have said thois for ages, its been only 3 or 4 months since d-day and a month since OM dumped her. It early days but hard nevertheless.

On Saturday we had a talk folling a Sikh wedding we attended. She pointed out that there were no wedding vows. I said what difference does that make, as few people adhere to marriage vows anyway.

She said to me " thats not fair I am working as hard as I can on our marriage !". I replied " while keeping OMs love letters to you safe, and photos of him etc etc. What if our roles were reversed, how would YOU feel?"

"don;t start that !" she said and sulked for hours.

she seems incapable of relationship talk right now. All I can think to do is give her more time and back off Qs for a while.

* RG I have told her many times that I am DYING to forgive her, she just has to ask. She always smiles and looks away. She knows I want her to ask forgiveness.

That dog don't hunt with me. Even JESUS doesn;t forgive without remorse and repentance

Jesus did forgive without repentence or remorse, Jesus said on the cross -

"Father forgive them, they know not what they do"

To love is to forgive, without being asked.

What come first, the forgiveness by the victim or the asking for forgiveness by the one who wronged you?

What difference does it make?

Weaver, the sinners Jesus begged his father to forgive did not know of the sin they were comitting. "they know not what they do".

My FWW knew exactly what she was doing and what she did.

If love is forgiveness without remorse then I do not love my FWW. I can't do that. It the action of either the pathetically weak in character or the enormously strong in faith, and I am neither of those.

Every SECOND of my life since FWW first dropped her pants for that reptile has been unjust to me. I need to draw a line in the sand and install some JUSTICE into this situation.

Living 'okay' in our M while FWW remembers the rape of my heart and our marriage with affection is not acceptable. I need her to be sorry and to let me know it. No big show, just let me know it.

I am DYING to forgive her, but its just words if I pretend to do it without remorse. I know it.

BobPure:

For you to have a chance, you must throw away your pride. I am sorry, but justice isn't always served the way it is supposed to be. We all got pride but it gets in the way of making rational decisions.

TooSoon

Bob,

RG I have told her many times that I am DYING to forgive her, she just has to ask. She always smiles and looks away. She knows I want her to ask forgiveness.

She smiles? She likes it? This is bizare,unless she sees this as some sort of leverage in you M.

Why do you think she smiles?

RG

How could she possibly know what she has done? She is not you, and she has never been betrayed like you have. If she knew she would throw herself on the ground at your feet and be shamed. She would be crushed if she knew. Just like the "sinners" Jesus asked God to forgive.

By withholding your forgiveness you are setting yourself above her. And you are not above her, she made a mistake, she hurt you but she is not beneath you. She doesn't need your forgiveness anyway, she needs your love.

You are not God and you do not hold the right to withhold or offer forgiveness.

I know many Christians here will disagree greatly with my statements but that is my opinion.

Do you want your wifes repentence or do you want her love? Love her first, only then will she feel safe enough to hunble herself before you and truly show remorse.

* TSTBC
Pride is all I have left. She took everything else that makes me a man.

How is my requirement that my FWW doesn't continue to remember her A with affection irrational BTW?

Are there ANY recovered Ms on here where the FWS still keeps love letters and thinks of OP as a catch that got away ?

I haven't ceased my care towards her, I am still a lighthouse in her life. Because I vent here doesn't mean I'm sulking around the house being mean to her. I took 'em out on a lovely family day today <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Not a sulk in sight !

* Weaver - every FWW on this board realised the extent of the hurt they waged upon their spouse. EVERY ONE eventually. I pray my FWW does one day. And I do not want to get into a 'Bobs an unreconstructed bloke' discussion here ( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) but I made a "mistake" today by taking the third exit offa the motorway roundabout on the way to ice skating instead of the second. What my FWW did was not a "mistake" - it was a knowing evil. She doesn't think it was a mistake, she recalls it with affection right now AFAIK.

FWW needs my love, well she has it. I almost wish I didn't love her so much, but I do, God knows.

* RG she doesn't smile like she's happy, she smiles almost shyly, and breaks eye contact. Like a child too shy to accept a gift.

One thing I WILL say in support of my FWW - at least she isn;t saying stuff she thinks I want to hear when its not true. I don't think she is manipulating me. When she acts lovingly towards me I think she means it. When she doesn't rgret the A she means it. Honesty at last from the girl who didn;t tell me the truth for MONTHS.

<small>[ October 17, 2004, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

Bob -

I didn't mean to sound so harsh, I know that you are still very much hurting.

But you wanted your wife back, the affair to be over, and now you have that.

Be patient friend, all will come in it's own time.

I have a feeling your wife senses your anger and is afraid to truly open up to you. You must find a way to get past this, to get past your pride... and BTW your pride is not all that you have left. Your pride is the least important but most destructive thing about you, and probably the thing you could most do without.

Hang in there guy, we are all wishing you more than the best.

(((((Bob)))))

Bob Pure:

I held onto my pride for the first 20 years and I don't think it did my marriage really any good at all. If you don't forgo your pride, you can't release the anger from the betrayal inside. I am not quite sure how it works Bob, but it does.

I spent my whole life being proud and a man of strong principal but to keep what you want, you let go. When you let go, it seems to come back.

Try it and see.

TooSoon

Bob,

I don't mean this as a 2x4, but try to remember that you and your W are on different time frames. Don't try to force her's on your's. Yes, it sucks that she hasn't come around yet. But you've done a masterful all around job. She WILL wake up eventually and at that time, you may get what you're looking for.

Pray for what you need and keep working. Recovery is hard and the rollercoaster has many ups and downs.

RH

Hmm..

I see where Bob is comming from. I take issue with the suggestion that it is pridefull to refuse forgiveness to the unremorsefull. It is pridefull to refuse forgiveness on the grounds that you ego has been punctured..even in the face of a humble plea..an acknowledgement of injury. Bob has not said he is too good to suffer..he has said he values himself and will not suffer for her pleasure. That is dignity..not pride.

A mistake is an unintentional error...what his wife has done is willfully and intentionally betray him. Over and over again. By refusing to acknowledge the wrong done while accepting the love of a husband she is betraying him still. Not the same at all. She is emphatically not sorry for what she has done. So what exactly is he supposed to be forgiving? Any forgiveness extended will likely be thrown in his face and mocked. You see..she didn't do anything wrong..nope..not at all..it was a beautifull love story D*mn it ..and she won't hear it any other way. You can not forgive the unremorsefull..they won't let you. If you want an example of pride..look no further. In the face of an obvious injury they will declare rain dry before they will accept responsibility.I think it's premature. I too believe that the unrepentant do not receive forgiveness. I think the term forgiveness is tossed about so casually as to make it a mere shadow of what it is intended to be. If forgiveness were so casual an affair..a supreme sacrifice would not have been required. Just tell God to get over his pride..forgive already so he can feel better. Then duck and cover as the bolts of electricity abound. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Nay..forgiveness is an extravagant and costly gift. One that his wife is yet unworthy of..she does not even desire it.

There is a debt to be paid folks..she will never even come close to paying it. Truly the least she can do is to be humble and ask for what she does not deserve.

In order to settle his mind around this Bob will have to declare the debt cancelled without payment having been recieved.

This means he himself will have to make the sacrifice on her behalf.

This is an extremely painfull endeavor and not one to be undertaken lightly. It is not profitable to provide the unremorsefull access to our hearts and lives. People who declare bankrupcy once are very likely to do so again unless the experience has changed who they are.

It is my experience that people become less willing to hash over embarrassing events as time passes..not more.

Bob may want his wife back..but he seems pretty certain that he doesn't want her back under any circumstances. Frankly it turns my stomach for people to suggest that he ought to just forgive and forget and accept an unrepentant abusive spouse with open arms. He has been extremely magnanimous in providing her the opportunity to make amends..to right the wrongs as much as possible. If she should choose not..I would have serious reservations about accepting her back myself..I can hardly recommend it to someone else.

I agree Bob..sooner or later there is a discussion in your future of an earnest nature. I do hope that by the time you feel you must have resolution..she will have come out of the dark enough to satisfy the minimum requirements for you to feel recovery is warranted.

Of course recovery of the marriage is the ultimate goal... true recovery..not a reasonable imitation. Cubic zirconium will not cut it when he knows there are diamonds to be had.

She has her opportunity..she has been granted time to get herself together. If her honest choice in the end is not one he can live with it is her failure..not his.

.02 Noodle

<small>[ October 17, 2004, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: noodle ]</small>

Noodle. Nail/head nexus there once again. You articulate my intent here perfectly.

I love the girl , I will give her every chance and lots of time, but I cannot carry abuse for the rest of my life.

This isn't abuse like frankD gets of course, but abuse nontheless.

Thanks all. I am easing off a little again this week. Not being so earnest. As recovering H says of course we are on different time frames.

FWW will obviously want to let go of a 'lovely memory' far more slowly than I want to release the memory of the rape of my marriage and heart ( same event).

I will read the R plan in Torn Asunder and see how I can manage the 'downs' better. I can't bleat on here every time I get fed up. Its gonna be a long walk, I'm gonna get blisters.

Thanks all. {{{mb}}}

Bob Pure and Noodle:

I am not saying your feelings are not correct. I wanted my FWW to feel, have, and show remorse, but she didn't for a long time. As the WS's come back to us gradually and it takes them a long time, the remorse will come out in small doses. It is there conviction, belief, and their own pride that gets in the way of them expressing remorse. If they express remorse, it means their feelings of love were not real and was not right. All along they know their feelings are real and from God. Because they were busted, now they must dismiss their real feelings as if they were nothing.

I didn't like it anymore than you two but I came to grips with the understanding of it. Guess what, after months, my FWW told me she was sorry for all the pain and suffering she brought me and the kids. Yet, in away, she still defends her feelings for the OM. With the choice of accepting them as they are, which is so much less than we thought prior to the affair, we must throw away our pride for our own ability to accept them back much different than before.

I suggested on another post that marriage and affairs remind me of the Humpty Dumpty Poem from my childhood:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
All the King's horses, And all the King's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again"!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is up to us to put our marriages back together again, because nobody else can. Without our strength, our love, and without faith that it can be done, it can't happen.

With our pride in the way, it prevents us from totaling accepting what they did and why they did it and to still allow us to put it away deep in our minds so we can go forward. So far, my thinking has worked in the rebuilding of my marriage. The woman who who betrayed me and fell in love with another man and out of love with me, now loves me again. Yes, I know deep down inside, she still loves the feelings she received from the OM. I don't like it but I cannot change the facts. That part of rebuilding Humpty Dumpty takes a lot of patience and lots of extra glue.

I hope you better understand my previous posts.

TooSoon

Bob,

Since I had major issues in my past regarding forgiveness and to forgave unrepentant and unremorseful people who’ve caused enormous emotional & physiological damage in my life, I can have some understanding for your feelings and your difficulty to let go of your pent up emotions. (I say some understanding, because I’m FWW and will never fully know & understand your pain as a BS). Some time ago, I’ve posted this thread on forgiveness (most specifically how forgiveness can also be a trap if you don’t work through all the feelings first). You can take a look at this thread if you want to. It will give you extra opinions and insight into this.

I think you must communicate your feelings to your W. Write a letter to her or talk to her honestly and openly without LB’ing. Explain to her how you feel and how you’re struggling to let go of your feelings of hurt, anger and pain towards her. Explain to her you need time and won’t be able to completely work through all your feelings of anger, pain and hurt, until you haven’t receive true remorse and repentance from her. However, explain to her you understand she is also going through a process and that you’re willing to wait until she’s ready to gives you what you needs in order to heal & recover completely.

God bless,
Suzet

I persisted and got a good discussion with FWW this lunchtime. details in the 'hey bob, look here' thread to FNCJ. In summary she now knows for sure how devastated I am, how she hurts me by keeping his loveletters, and not talking to me.

Its also clear that she is changing slowly in her attitude to the affair, from positive, now less so, soon...who knows ?

She is veryuncomfortabel with all of this. She has never been in 'trouble' before, not at school, not in life. Always been a 'good girl' now is the "baddest girl" imaginable and can't cope.

Now we know where we stand I can relax and give her more time. she is sulking with me BAD right now, but hey, the discussion was worth that.

I hav SOME SMALL HOPE now that she IS changing her attitude to me and the affair slowly.

In fact my heart went out to her. The confidant veneer soon shifted from her visage. FWW is hurting and BADLY.

I will love her now and try to wait for her to open the next discussion concerning relationship.