Hi JL,

I just wanted to say hi. I am hoping you are ok with everything (regarding the myrta stuff...). Sometimes it must feel like you can't win, huh? you were trying to help but you were told your efforts were hurting so you back off and that doesn't seem to appease everyone either.

i would tend to think you are pretty confident here and therefore don't get hurt feelings. i know you must be very confident that you intentinos are nothing but good. but just in case, you are feeling anything negative, i just wanted to say, you are a wonderful person and i admire how much you try to help (yeah, i know i've already said this, multiple times, but i thought today might be an extra good day to say it again.)

your friend, Karen

FinallyLearning--Since you started this thread, I would like to take advantage of it.
I want to apologize to JL right here, right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
I feel so bad, I was too impulsive, not thinking straight when I wrote that ugly post.
I know I am overly sensitive especially now , so sometimes I dont see or dont want to see the true intention of the person. I know he was trying to help me, but the way he said certain things were too much for me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
I am so sorry that I was so harsh in my words. Truly did not mean them!!
I hope you can forgive me JL, dont expect you to post to me anymore, but I do hope you forgive my words to you!!

Sincerely
Myrta

It was about a year ago I started a thread where I complained about my FWH, my Taker was out in full force, life wasn't fair and I was going to complain about it. A few folks came on and commiserated about their H's too, then JL came on and what seem to me at the time was blasting me out of the water.

In a nutshell he said how dare I come on here and complain about my H...no wonder my M was in trouble...and pointed out specifics from my post where I was disrespectful. Many other posters jumped on and gave it to him for posting to me in that way, came to my defense. I cried when I read the post and called my H and read it to him. My H said..."Who is this that can write to you this way?"

The problem with the whole thing? He was right. I needed to hear these things. I was (and still am but working on it) very disrespectful to my H. Not one word he wrote in there I could argue with. It helped open my eyes (and they are still opening). And I thank you JL for that post!!

trust me Myrta, we all know how hard this is. it is very understandable to be sensitive, i am too, but i am getting better at not letting it get to me, i think that also comes from the fact that i am getting better overall. you are sensitive because you are hurting so much. keep working, you will heal and you will not hurt so much.

i very much doubt JL will be "mad" at you. he certainly does not hold grudges, i would not worry about that one bit. i'm sure he will accept your apology no problem.

ya know, it's good that you can recognize that your response is due to where you are right now and not entirely due to the words said to you. you are taking ownership for your reactions and i also think that means you do have an open mind, and you are willing to look at the ugly places, it's just hard.

i can relate very much!!!

and trust me, you are not the first nor will you be the last to have strong reactions and post accordingly.

no worries Myrta. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> take a deep breath once in a while, let the tension out and smile sometimes too, it feels good <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> i'm very glad to see you are not giving up!!

see i told you, you are not the first nor will you be the last!!!! thanks for sharing that SHMI.

Karen - I don't think you need to worry about JL not posting. He's been around a long time, is very patient, but he's also a realist. JL was one of the first to post to me when I first arrived here and if my memory serves, he had 4000+ posts at that time, 2.5 years ago.

He and I are similar in some ways and a little different in others. But one thing we have in common is that we both try to help others based upon experience and knowledge gained through the years of dealing with infidelity. Another thing we have in common is the realistic understanding that you "can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink."

There is a point where you simply have to stop trying to help and simply let the person either DO the hard but necessary work or continue to "do it their way."

In the case of Myrta, and to a lesser extent Stanley, they are intent on using the system for "emotional support" only. That's okay. They can use it for whatever they wish. However, there comes a point at which it is pointless to continue spending a lot of time responding to them. By that time you have pretty much said all that needs to be said and it would be redundant or impractical to try to say anything more. It is up to them to "work" their attempt at recovery any way that they wish.

Essentially, what *I* "heard" in their postings is both a good thing and a potential problem. What I heard is they "defend" each other when someone says something that they perceive as an "attack" on one of them. That's good insofaras a marriage should be "us against the world if necessary." But there is also a case to be made for simply doing what the "doctor" says in order to recover from the traumatic bodily injuries sustained in an unwanted car crash.

Case in point, for me anyway, they claim to be Christians, believe in God, but do not believe in the clear teaching of Scripture. Myrta was openly hostile to discussing anything to do with that and Stanley simply stated that he didn't want to discuss anything related to religion.

That is their choice. I happen to firmly believe that if one is a Christian, the FIRST order of business is to obey God and his commands. But they choose not to, so I am NOT going to "force" anything on them. I couldn't "force" anything anyway. By the same token, they, especially Myrta, were hostile to much of what JL was saying even though he was trying to help from the "secular" side without addressing their "belief system."

So I made the following evaluation and choice. Myrta is hostile to discussing religion or needed change within herself. Stanley is, while perhaps not "hostile," unwilling to discuss the "religious" side of their makeup and what part that belief system plays in their individual lives, their married life, and how they relate to others and to how they make decisions (i.e. "what would Jesus do?"). In my mind, the husband IS the spiritual head of the household by God's command. Stanley made it quite clear that he did not want any discussion of religion, so I made the choice to "accede" to his choice and withdraw from any further discussion.

From JL's standpoint, not to try to put words into his mouth, I suspect that he reached the point also where it was "pointless" to invest any more time on a couple who were determined to do whatever they wanted to do regardless of any input from others who have had more "experience", if you will, with the subject matter.

Karen, there is a time when we all have to "back off" and let the person, or the couple, "do it their way." Hopefully that "point" will come after they have made needed changes, have learned more about affairs, EN's, etc., and are beginning to recover and heal their marriage, but it will come.

In the face of stubbornness and even angry responses, it is best to stop posting immediately. Very little ever gets positively accomplished when stubbornness and anger are in full swing. People don't "hear" and are unwilling to "think" when they have erected barriers to protect what they think of as "themselves." It's very similar to the problem a BS has with trying "to get through to" a WS who is shrouded in the "fog." Virtually nothing you can say will penetrate and "reach" them. So you have to wait for them to "do it their way," perhaps "hit bottom," before they will begin to accept that the "way" they were doing things might not be the "best way."

Lastly, both JL and I are men. We tend to be "right brainers" and deal more with logic. Women tend more to deal with empathy and emotions. It's simply a difference in most men and women. It's not that women aren't logical or that men aren't emotional also, it's that the "dominant" type is what will come out most of the time. Personally, I think you will primarily find women responding to Myrta and Stanley's threads now simply because they "care," they "empathize," they "feel," they...insert whatever emotional, nurturing, caring, "feminine type" emotion you wish.

But men will tend to more quickly reach the point of "do or NOT do" as being their(Myrta and Stanley's) choice. Assistance was offered. Assistance was rejected. Time to move on. There ARE many others who are seeking help and only so much time that CAN be invested with any one or two people, or in total, in posting and trying to help. NONE of us is a paid counselor. We try to help because we received help when we needed it and we seek to "pay back" a little by trying to help others who are "where we once were." In JL's case, he seeks to help because he is genuinely concerned for others, especially those dealing with the trauma of infidelity.

You see, Karen, most of us understand that when anger is directed at us for something that we posted, that anger is really an expression, a release, of their anger over the situation they find themselves in and that they are NOT who they want to be. Emotions are on edge and often raw. So anger is a "normal" response that is "defensive" in nature. I don't, and I'm certain JL doesn't, take much of a personal affront to anger that might be directed at us. BUT we do assess whether or not the current "climate" is conducive to any further discussion or whether or not any "positive" is likely to be achieved by continuing to post. IF the answer we reach is "no," then it's time to stop posting and let them "do their own thing and drink the water when they feel like it, or not drink it, if they so choose."

Believe it or not, hundreds and thousands of hours have been invested, donated, given, by many who's sole goal is to try to help some "stranger" laying broken and bleeding on the side of the road. We, all of us, gain nothing personal from helping but the satisfaction of knowing that we tried to help another in need. That, after all, was the point of the story about the Good Samaritan. That is how God would like us to try to love and help others....selflessly and sacrificially with our time and money. But there is also a time "shake the dust off" and move on to others in need.

So, Karen, have no fear. JL is alive and well and will be continuing to help those in need. Having done it myself several times, sometimes you also have to "go off by yourself" to recharge the batteries before getting back into the "service of giving."

God bless.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ForeverHers:
You see, Karen, most of us understand that when anger is directed at us for something that we posted, that anger is really an expression, a release, of their anger over the situation they find themselves in and that they are NOT who they want to be. Emotions are on edge and often raw. So anger is a "normal" response that is "defensive" in nature. I don't, and I'm certain JL doesn't, take much of a personal affront to anger that might be directed at us. BUT we do assess whether or not the current "climate" is conducive to any further discussion or whether or not any "positive" is likely to be achieved by continuing to post. IF the answer we reach is "no," then it's time to stop posting and let them "do their own thing and drink the water when they feel like it, or not drink it, if they so choose." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this paragraph is very true.

It is interesting that Myrta's appologetic response on this thread indicates her perception that JL stopped posting to her because her response(s) to him were too harsh, and hurt his feelings.... and of course, you and I know that is simply not true. It is her unwillingness to consider another approach to her dilemma that ended the discussion.

Sometimes in a longterm relationship, be it a marriage or a parent-child situation, there is a very comfortable habitual "system" that works for both parties. And even when the persons involved say they want a different "system" because there is too much strife, they actually resist change, because the as-is "system" satisfies their basic needs in some way. If one half of the "system" begins to change in ways unfamiliar to the routine .... the other half will return their "usual well rehearsed response".... and this draws the one trying to change back into the habitual dance of "reaction-action-reaction" which feels familiar to both of them. This sort of relationship "system" resists emotional growth because it threatens the "system" if either one of the parties change.

This sort of "system" is sometimes shattered by an affair. The affair is enough of a trauma to destroy the old "system" and force both parties to change themselves in order to regain equilibrium.

And sometimes the affair does not do this. The "system" is too resistant to change, even with the stimulation-stress caused by an affair.

I think JL recognized such a situation, and simply backed off, not in anger or even frustration, but more in respect for what has been a working "system" for a long time .... and recognizing that neither half of the "system" actually is commited to changing.

Both spouses in this "system" have a great interest in making sure the partner spouse does NOT change!!!! Because, such a change would require a different response from themselves, a change which they do not recognize as part of the familiar "system", therefore it must be unwelcome.

Pep

<small>[ October 16, 2004, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FinallyLearning:
it is very understandable to be sensitive, i am too, but i am getting better at not letting it get to me, i think that also comes from the fact that i am getting better overall. you are sensitive because you are hurting so much. keep working, you will heal and you will not hurt so much.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Karen, just so you know, I wrote my last post for your benefit, even tho you, perse were not the subject.

"Sensitive" and "hurting" are chosen ways to respond to difficult situations. "Sensitive" and "hurting" are NOT (generally) good students ready to listen to and absorb new learning.

Imagine you are a teacher, and you are trying to teach a new math concept to a student who, whenever she gets frustrated, automatically switches over to "sensitive" and "hurting" responses. What would you do in order to teach that student the new math concept?

Pep

<small>[ October 16, 2004, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ForeverHers:
<strong> Karen - I don't think you need to worry about JL not posting. He's been around a long time, is very patient, but he's also a realist. JL was one of the first to post to me when I first arrived here and if my memory serves, he had 4000+ posts at that time, 2.5 years ago.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I for one NEEEEED JL to be here. I'm JUST starting to pull my marriage back together...and I seriously doubt if I can do the rest of the work by myself without his wise advice.

I echo Foreverhers comments about JL just taking a time out from MB. Let's get real for a minute here folks and remember that JL has a life outside these forums [just like the rest of us] that he has to take care of. Don't worry, JL will be back soon.

geeze, all i wanted to do was send JL a friendly HI. that's all. i honestly didn't think Myrta even read here and i certainly have no interest in debating anything. all i wanted to do is send a friendly hi. i know he takes breaks, i was not worried, just a friendly hi.

since myrta did post, i used the opportunity to give her a bit of encouragement.

foreverhers, that was a very long post and i'm sure if i read it again, i'll get more out of it, so i thank you for posting. perhaps you thought i was extremly distraught over this, i was not, it was just a friendly hi and then encouragement to Myrta since she ended up posting.

please understand i have a splitting headache right now and i very heavy heart, not cuz of this because of a discussion with my H last night.

pep, i wish i could talk to you directly, i have no energy to post about the topic, nor do i really have the time, my heart is breaking, i've been praying to God to help me let go of the pain, keep focused, give my worries to Him and live freely and love freely. by the time i got to your first post, my head hurt even more, but then i went back and read the last paragraph because of your second post. i know there is insight in there that should help me with what is going on with me right now.

the first thing i would do to that student would tell him/her to relax, you WILL get it, just give yourself time, it's ok to not get it right now, the best thing to do is accept the information without fighting it, it's called taking it all in, take it in, let your mind settle down and you will get it, even if not right now. i would also try to work the concept needing to be taught from a different angle.

funny, i've been praying since i got up to ask God to help me, is He talking thru you right now?

i doubt i'll be back online now, this was my only open time and i've stayed too late as it is. be back on tuesday.

i'ld certainly appreciate any prayers.

Not to threadjack, but I just wanted to say that this would seemingly be ADVANCED MB's. What Pepperband said about the "system" is exactly what I am living. I would never have been able to understand this until now. It takes a lot of work to heal and only when that healing has seemingly ocurred and lot's of time has passed are you able to look at things objectively. I never stop learning here and I think it is quite possible to heal incorrectly. Because in my case the "system" is still in place.

ForeverHers, your post wasn't lost on me either. This is not directed at anyone on this thread because I'm not in a position to comment on their situations. But in some "systems" it's simply easier to shoot the messenger than consider the message.

ForeverH said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">However, there comes a point at which it is pointless to continue spending a lot of time responding to them.

Case in point, for me anyway, they claim to be Christians, believe in God, but do not believe in the clear teaching of Scripture. Myrta was openly hostile to discussing anything to do with that and Stanley simply stated that he didn't want to discuss anything related to religion.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I quote:

“Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given back to you" Luke 6: 37-38


Judging Others
(From Forerunner Commentary)

The New Testament instructs us in a number of places not to judge our brother. This does not mean we should not judge at all; a broader view of this subject shows we should be cautious and not condemn. We must judge, because making choices and acting upon them requires judgment. When we must judge a brother, we must remember that we really know very little about his situation. This plays a large role in skewing our judgment.

This is where mercy enters. We must judge people from the inside out, as it were. There are reasons why they—and we—act as we do. If we knew their reason(s), we could much more easily understand, sympathize, forgive, be patient and tolerant toward them—or for that matter, be harder on them if need be. When we take this approach, both justice and mercy are tempered by clearer understanding of another's words, attitudes, and conduct.

A French proverb states, "To know all is to forgive all." This saying is somewhat similar to the more commonly known, "There but for the grace of God go I." They touch upon the general truth that, if we really look inside another person deeply and clearly enough, we begin to see ourselves reflected in them. The circumstances, chronology, and specific situations may be somewhat different, but the human nature expressed in them will be the same. Once we recognize this, it greatly tempers our judgment of the other and almost automatically activates the Golden Rule: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Forgiveness or mercy follows.

http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/CGG/ID/1018


ForeverH said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is their choice. I happen to firmly believe that if one is a Christian, the FIRST order of business is to obey God and his commands. But they choose not to, so I am NOT going to "force" anything on them.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sadden by your remarks. I may not know the Bible as well as you do, but the concept that you express is not what I remember. I don't think Jesus would want us to go around telling others "I am a better Christian than you". I don't want to imagine what you think of non-Christian religions.

Our relationship with God is very personal and private. I beg you not to turn this into a discussion to see who is the better Christian. I do not want to talk about religion at this time. I want to do is improve my marriage by seeking practical solutions. Myrta may seen resistant and perhaps so do I but we are learning how to cope and we are moving forward.

ForeverH said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stanley is, while perhaps not "hostile," unwilling to discuss the "religious" side of their makeup and what part that belief system plays in their individual lives, their married life, and how they relate to others and to how they make decisions (i.e. "what would Jesus do?"). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course Myrta and I feel very close to each other in church, but we want to leave that aspect of our lives private. I know Jesus would not be as harsh as you are. BTW, Myrta is not hostile, she is very defensive because she has a lot of remorse. It is not easy for her to open up, but we are doing QUITE WELL considering the circumstances. I am 100% sure we will succeed and our marriage will be better. Remember D-day was Jun 1, 2004 and last telephone contact with OM six weeks ago. We are still infants in terms of recovery, but WE WILL WIN THIS FIGHT.


ForeverH said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In the face of stubbornness and even angry responses, it is best to stop posting immediately. Very little ever gets positively accomplished when stubbornness and anger are in full swing.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know ForeverH------- perhaps we were not receptive to your initial posts and I am sure you meant well, but we did not want a religious sermon at that time. We were quite happy with JL even if Myrta was very defensive and felt she was judged harshly. If you ask her she will still acknowledge the immense benefits we received from reading JL.


ForeverH said

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Assistance was offered. Assistance was rejected. Time to move on. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It seems you are exhorting others to isolate us in the forum. I beg you to reconsider your words and to read the 1st part of my post to you. At this point this forum is our only form of MC and we need this BADLY. I beg uou to reconsider.

ForeverH said

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You see, Karen, most of us understand that when anger is directed at us for something that we posted, that anger is really an expression, a release, of their anger over the situation they find themselves in and that they are NOT who they want to be. Emotions are on edge and often raw. So anger is a "normal" response that is "defensive" in nature.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ForeverH-------- you have written a lengthy post to simply put Myrta and I down in a very difficult moment in our lives. I will not deny this has increased our pain substantially. Myrta is very hurt--- she is a novice at posting and takes everything personally. She is in a lot of despair and perhaps you should consider or try to wonder what is like to be a FWW full of remorse while passing thru withdrawal.

I respectfully say to you that by writing such a long detailed post you are showing a great deal of anger yourself. I don't think JL responded in such a manner when Myrta lost her handle.

In any event I want us to smoke the peace pipe---------- I do not want any more controversy. If you felt offended I send my sincere apologies.

Pep, I really enjoyed your posts on this thread. WOE recomended it over on a post to CV on Recovery, and I came to check it out.

The A for my H and I definately blew our old "system" out of the water. Thank GOD. Literally. It was a flawed, failing system, and we didn't even consciously know that.

That is why I know MC has been so great for us. Because when we got back together again, we still only knew what we DIDN'T want. H and I now actually know what a M can be, what a healthy M looks and feels like. We are just on the tip of the iceburg, but from this site, and our MC, we have great tools and ideas to guide us on our journey.

Sometimes, even now, after 6.5 months of MC and Recovery, I can feel myself trying to slip back into the old "system," just out of habit. Luckily, things are SOOOO different, it feels awkward and forced. And I choose into my new, better system.

You rock!!!

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by walkingoneggs:
Not to threadjack, but I just wanted to say that this would seemingly be ADVANCED MB's. What Pepperband said about the "system" is exactly what I am living.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know if what I wrote is "advanced MB" or not ... but I do know it is "primary AA / Al-Anon".

Go sit in on a few meetings, and you will see what I mean.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ForeverH-------- you have written a lengthy post to simply put Myrta and I down in a very difficult moment in our lives. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stanley - for someone who goes out of his way to accuse someone of "judging" others, you do a rather remarkable job of it yourself. But let's cut through the emotions here and be honest, we ALL make "judgments" of one sort or another about others all time. MY "judgment" was really quite simple, neither of you cared to discuss religion, Myrta resorts to accusing of me of a "holier than thou" attitude, you seem to be doing much the same in your current post, and I simply decided it was not worth causing more angst for either of you or using the time that I have to possibly post to someone else.

I am contemplating making a more directed response to you. But I'm not sure if it's worth the effort. If I do, it will be on a separate thread directed to you, so as to not "threadjack" Finally Learning's thread.

Suffice it to say for now that my comments to FL were directed to her and not you or your wife. Myrta made it plain that she was NOT interested in anything I might have to say and YOU took offense about the mere mention of God and asked that there be NO discussion of that subject. You have made it clear, and I respect your right to make a decision for you and Myrta, that you don't really want to consider God "at this point in your recovery efforts." While I am not sure how you separate the two, it IS your decision and your right to "accept" or "reject" ANY advice that anyone may offer. It is YOUR marriage. While we all want to see you two heal and have a successful recovery, you will need to do so in "your" way. Things that we offer are often intended to help you both "speed up" the process and perhaps avoid some common pitfalls. But we are pretty much all realists here. Some marriages survive infidelity and some don't. It usually DOES take both husband and wife working together and even making changes that might be needed, to have a successful recovery.

So, I took your request seriously and terminated my participation in your thread.

Stanley....also "for the record," I know the pain of what you are going through at least as well as you do. Having been where you are and "passed through" that, I understand. I also understand when someone doesn't want particular advice or the participation of a particular poster.

Hear this and hear it good, if you will. I have not and DO NOT advocate anyone stopping their posting to you or helping you or Myrta in any way. I..."me, myself, and I", have chosen to withdraw from the conversation for what to me are obvious reasons. I have seen, as I am sure JL has seen, that as much as we'd "like" to help, sometimes our help is not wanted. So if you wish to misapply some label of "judging others" then feel free to do so if it makes you feel better.

If, at some time, you do want to discuss Christianity and Scripture, I will make myself available to you. Until then, do not expect me to intrude in your recovery efforts.

My comments were for Finally Learning and were NOT any sort of "attack" upon you or Myrta. I tried to make it clear to her WHY some of us "back off" of discussion with some posters and that FL need not worry about JL "leaving and not posting anymore" simply because Finally Learning saw the way the thread had been going and saw the potential for an emotional response.

Let me give you something to think about. A couple of old phrases that may or may not be appropriate to your recovery efforts. "Physician, heal thyself" and "A lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client." You are both in the "pits" right now. You can climb out on your own or with the assistance of others who made the climb already. But the choice IS yours, not ours.

There IS such a thing as being "too close to the trees" to see the whole forest, especially early in recovery.

Stanley, it is my hope and prayer that you and Myrta heal and recover a loving marriage in the Lord.

<small>[ October 16, 2004, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]</small>

Sgt Pepper said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is interesting that Myrta's appologetic response on this thread indicates her perception that JL stopped posting to her because her response(s) to him were too harsh, and hurt his feelings.... and of course, you and I know that is simply not true. It is her unwillingness to consider another approach to her dilemma that ended the discussion.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I asked Myrta how she felt about the above. She admits she was upset when JL pointed out some things to her that were probably true. However, she was not yet ready to do everything that needs to be done. She is still dealing with some depression, lots of remorse, and probably some withdrawal. If she gave the impression she simply refused to improve the marriage that is incorrect---- she is trying.

Myrta is bothered when others talk down at her. The great thing about JL is that he never appears to be talking down to anyone. Nevertheless Myrta was upset because JL made her face the harsh reality. Whether Myrta feels Jl is upset or not is not important. The reality is that Myrta felt anger against JL and she expressed that in her posts. Gee---- what is the big deal? Can we get along?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sometimes in a long-term relationship, be it a marriage or a parent-child situation, there is a very comfortable habitual "system" that works for both parties. And even when the persons involved say they want a different "system" because there is too much strife, they actually resist change</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you for pointing the obvious Pepper. It will be hard to change, perhaps more so for Myrta, but she is willing to try. However, as an individualist she still wants to do her own thing.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think JL recognized such a situation, and simply backed off, not in anger or even frustration, but more in respect for what has been a working "system" for a long time .... and recognizing that neither half of the "system" actually is committed to changing.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Everybody is different, I may want the change sooner than my wife. Myrta tells me that she is still trying to process all of this and she may be moving at a slower speed.

Thanks for your concern. We will keep trying! We are not giving up!

<small>[ October 16, 2004, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

This is for Myrta, but you too, Stan:

Read how many BS have simply run out of steam. Don't assume that the BS will always be there.

What goes around, comes around. Myrta, you want to be an individual, you want to be accepted warts and all, you want to be allowed to be human. Well, are you allowing Stan to be human, too? Are you allowing him to be imperfect? Are you allowing him what you want for yourself?

Folks, I just have a few minutes here but I wanted to answer some of the posts to me on this thread.

FL, you said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I just wanted to say hi. I am hoping you are ok with everything (regarding the myrta stuff...). Sometimes it must feel like you can't win, huh? you were trying to help but you were told your efforts were hurting so you back off and that doesn't seem to appease everyone either.

i would tend to think you are pretty confident here and therefore don't get hurt feelings. i know you must be very confident that you intentinos are nothing but good. but just in case, you are feeling anything negative, i just wanted to say, you are a wonderful person and i admire how much you try to help (yeah, i know i've already said this, multiple times, but i thought today might be an extra good day to say it again.) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I want to thank you for your very kind words. It is nice to be appreciated and I think you are correct to suspect that sometimes different posts affect people, including me. As for confidence, I am not so sure about that, but I do know what has worked here over the years, and I do have some idea of what makes sense. You are right, there is no reason to be here if it is not to help.

Again, thank you for your comments.

Myrta

Your post was very generous as well, and very much appreciated. I do accept your apology as I hope you have accepted mine on the other thread. I think Pep’s post says a great deal about how things work. Rest assured if I feel I have something to say that I feel might help you, I will post it to you. I really do want to see you and Stanley make a full recovery from this. I do hope you read Pep’s post again, because I am in full agreement with her about the “system” needing retooling.

I do think that Stanley feels that the old “system” failed hence your affair. He is looking for a new one. I hope as you two work through this that your relationship will embody a new way of interacting that helps you both.

StillHereMakingIt

I am humbled by your post. Thank you for it and I do hope that your marriage continues to recover and become what you want.

Coffeeman, Sadww, FH,

Thank you for your comments as well. You are right I am slowing down right now due to work demands and many other things going on in my life. I will still be around but not so actively. Heck, I may yet break this addiction <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> and leave this to you youngsters. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

FL, thanks again for you kind thoughts. I hope your weekend is going well.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do hope you read Pep’s post again, because I am in full agreement with her about the “system” needing retooling.

I do think that Stanley feels that the old “system” failed hence your affair. He is looking for a new one. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL:

Thanks for posting!

I have been talking to Myrta and she has been more open with her thoughts. Today I am more in love with her than ever-------- it is one of those things that are hard to explain.

Myrta has some concerns.

Despite the affair we always had some sort of chemistry that at least worked for the overwhelming part of our marriage. In summary, she feels a drastic change could affect our interaction and chemistry. I know Sgt Pepper said we may be stuck in our ways, but there is something special about Myrta’s personality and mannerisms. Myrta is the sum of a lot of wonderful attributes and that is what keeps me highly attracted to her. So I have come to the conclusion tat I must listen to her and slow down my speed. I think we have advanced quite a bit despite the fact that I still want more. It may very well be that I am too desperate. In any event I want to let you know we have benefited immensely from your advice and that we will go back and re-read your words as needed.

Tanks for everything!

<small>[ October 16, 2004, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>