I just got off of the phone with my WW for the second time today. I asked her if I was doing anything to annoy or anger her lately. She says "Well, being on the phone with you is kind of annoying, I feel like if I don't call you, you'll be upset." I replied with, I'm sorry it upsets you when I'm upset." She kind of groaned/sighed.

I then probbaly screwed up, by bringing up the OM. She admitted that he calls her from jail. She said she doesn't know if she's falling in love with him, but likes him. The people in her family tell me they don't like the OM, but they continue to support and enable her A. I think I LB'd buy saying that some of her relatives are A enablers. She didn't reply to that.

I asked her if she would be happy if she never saw my face, or spoke to me ever again. "I don't know was the answer". She said people cannot change overnight, and I said that in many ways I have, and she said "Only time will tell." She also mentioned how I wasn't there for her, blah blah blah when she was the one who wasn't around, always "visiting mom or sis", etc. My instincts to use logic and reason with my WW are overpowering my Plan A'ing, and its making me sick.

Also, here are some quotes my WW has used since this situation hit me like a frieght train:

Here are some of her quotes:

"I don't love you anymore, I want a divorce."

"There is someone else, but it may be nothing."

"I like the OM, after we don't live together, and he wants me, he can have me."

"Yes, OM moved in, and is sleeping in our bed. We haven't exactly started a physical relationship yet..there are problems, if you know what I mean." To this I say "Really? Well that makes me relieved in a way." She then says: "Yeah, me too, you know?" and I say: "What do you mean by that?" and she says: "Well I just don't want that right now..." (so yeah right, she rushes to get me out, he moves in within 2 days of that, sleeps IN MY BED with MY W, and they aren't having intercourse yet?)

"There is no hope for us."

"I have searched my feelings, and there is just nothing there, I don't love you. I care about you, your well being, I don't want to see you hurt or homeless, but I just don't love you anymore."

"I feel bad for you and BIL (her older sister dumped her husband around the same time, and she is having an A as well)."

"I'm doing what is making ME happy."

"Who knows what the future holds, nothing is impossible." (in reference to us reconciling, having MC, and saving the M)

"I just cannot see us back together in the forseeable future."

"If I come back to you, then my heart was yours, if not, then it wasn't."

generic answers "No", "I don't know", "I don't know what to tell you"

"We were arguing all of the time, so this is good for the kids."

"No, I am not in love with OM"

"My R with OM probably won't last that long anyway."

"I probably won't settle down with anyone, when they realise that the kids will be more important than them" (this after she finds excuses not to come get the kids).

"I will never be married again, it isn't worth it." (nah, we'll just have fleeting relationships, and one night stands until we get HIV, right?)

"Even if we could, somehow, magically find a way to make it work, I'm not sure that I want too."

I asked if she missed the good old days, and if she would like it to be like it was again, and she says "Yeah, those were good times...in the beginning. No, I don't want it to be like it was, because it just can't."

"You are just making these changes because you know that I'm leaving you. I don't want to stay together just to find out everything will be the same."

"I am not the same woman anymore, the one you married is long dead and gone!!!"

I am so confused and mixed up, feeling numb and sick...plus, the vengeful side that was born of her first A is starting to stir, making me want to make life difficult for her and the OM...what can I do? I love her so much, but what she is doing is driving me crazy! What if we reconcile, and she does this again? I don't know if its possible to completely meet her EN's, I think that her EN's change, going back and forth with time...plus with us living 2 1/2 hrs apart, how can I meet them?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Dimmu:
Here are some of her quotes:</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Below each of the WS' fog babble are my versions of the fog babble response. Remember these are just suggestions.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
"I don't love you anymore, I want a divorce.":</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Yea, me too! Let me know when.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>"There is someone else, but it may be nothing.":</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: There is? You are going with a nobody? (give her that real question mark look).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>"I like the OM, after we don't live together, and he wants me, he can have me."

"Yes, OM moved in, and is sleeping in our bed. We haven't exactly started a physical relationship yet..there are problems, if you know what I mean." To this I say "Really? Well that makes me relieved in a way." She then says: "Yeah, me too, you know?" and I say: "What do you mean by that?" and she says: "Well I just don't want that right now..." (so yeah right, she rushes to get me out, he moves in within 2 days of that, sleeps IN MY BED with MY W, and they aren't having intercourse yet?):</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Oh, well I have 'heard' that the OM is quite small and can't perform too well.... at least that's what one of his 'guys' said. LOL!!! Can you deliver this line without cracking up? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>"There is no hope for us.":</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: You're right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> "I have searched my feelings, and there is just nothing there, I don't love you. I care about you, your well being, I don't want to see you hurt or homeless, but I just don't love you anymore.":</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: I can't understand what you are saying.... sounds like you are babbling again. When are you going to the doctor for that condition?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>"I feel bad for you and BIL (her older sister dumped her husband around the same time, and she is having an A as well).":</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: I feel sorry for BIL. Feeling bad for you on the other hand will take more effort.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>"I'm doing what is making ME happy.":</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: U R? Wow, you sure don't look too happy. Can you please work harder on looking happy? (WS' hate to look happy around a BS - that's a clue).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>"Who knows what the future holds, nothing is impossible." (in reference to us reconciling, having MC, and saving the M)

"I just cannot see us back together in the forseeable future.":</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Yea who knows. Certainly not you. You keep babbling too much. Let me know when you do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>"If I come back to you, then my heart was yours, if not, then it wasn't.":</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Not sure if I want a broken heart. It may take some super glue to fix it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>"We were arguing all of the time, so this is good for the kids.":</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Hope you aren't giving this kind of babbling advice to other people. It sure sounds stupid to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>"No, I am not in love with OM":</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Oh you're not? So it's a fetish? Hm.... you sure have changed? Not sure if I like your version of sex and love. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>"My R with OM probably won't last that long anyway.":</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Last long? Thought you said he was nothing? How long would it last if he wasn't bisexual and a bit bigger?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>"I probably won't settle down with anyone, when they realise that the kids will be more important than them" (this after she finds excuses not to come get the kids).:</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: When will you let the kids know of a definite decision? I will let them know you are not sure yet.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>"I will never be married again, it isn't worth it." (nah, we'll just have fleeting relationships, and one night stands until we get HIV, right?):</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: You are right, having an A with a nothing, small, bi-guy, jail bird is a turn off for most people.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>"Even if we could, somehow, magically find a way to make it work, I'm not sure that I want too.":</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Yea, me too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>"You are just making these changes because you know that I'm leaving you. I don't want to stay together just to find out everything will be the same.":</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Oh you are babbling again. When is the medication going to kick in? You work on your improvements. I am already on a permanent fix on mine. You don't have to worry about me slipping like you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>"I am not the same woman anymore, the one you married is long dead and gone!!!":</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Dead? When was the services? Has she been buried? How do I tell the children? I will need to see who I should notify.


Well those are my responses. She is babbling straight out of the manual. Work on strengthening you. She is attempting to deflect her issues and focus on your shortcomings. Don't let her.

take care,
L.

First off you should listen to Orchid! She really knows what she is talking about.

Second.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know if its possible to completely meet her EN's, I think that her EN's change, going back and forth with time...plus with us living 2 1/2 hrs apart, how can I meet them? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you read Surviving an Affair? The first example tells about how Dr. Harley helped a BS to Plan A remotely while the WS was living out of the house.

Your not going to be able to meet her EN's until WS decides to let you. But you can slip all sorts of things in with email and letters. As Jennifer C. has told me "Plant little seeds". I think hand written letters are more romantic. Besides she is falling for a looooser that is in jail right? How many EN's do you think that he can meet from the pokey. lol...He's probably too busy meeting Bubba's EN's right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

LOL sounds like "Pokey Love" too me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> no pun intended. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

C.

Thank you, Orchid. I like what some of your replies would have been to some of my WW babble. I always wonder which is babble, which is truth, the lies... I need to remember how to answer her babble, instead of answering her in the ways she expects of me.

I will see her for the first time in two weeks, tomorrow morning. We are supposed to watch a DVD together before she takes the kids overnight. I hope I can reverse babble and Plan A my way through it, without saying stupid things, or trying to reason with her about the M or the A she is having.

Practice makes perfect. It is hard t/d @ 1st but if you practice, it will get easier.

Remember to breathe and if it is too hard to say anything, then don't say anything. Keeping quiet is also an effective tool.

Don't get squeemish if as her face distorts. It happens to most WS when they get confused and their planned BS reactions come back to them as reverse babble. LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Shmaley's made some good suggestions. See if you can also setup some counseling with Jennifer or Penny @ MB. Also read up on His Needs/Her Needs (this is a good communication tool but doesn't always help with reverse babble).

Another good book is Love must be Tough by Dr. James Dobson.

BTW, planting doubts about the OM or the A is a good tool to use but don't overuse it. You can say you 'learned' something about the OM. You don't have to reveal your source. Can you imagine the OM trying hard to convince the WS he isn't Bi? LOL!!!! Don't laugh too hard. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

shmaley-

I have to reread a lot of articles. Some were read when my emotional distress was high. When I go through trauma with my W, sometimes things get hazy, like my mind is trying to tone it out.

I hope the OM is "meeting Bubba's EN's" lol! Its hard to laugh at a time like this, but that is funny. But I fear that maybe he's out on bail or something, and she's lying about it...thats what my gut tells me. Hopefully my gut is wrong, and he's rotting in there.

Orchid-

I will have to remember to keep quiet about certain things. Its so hard to bottle it up, but I know it is needed in this situation.

I cannot purchase any material, I am low on funds due to everything that is going on in my M. My kids and I were basically dropped off at my mother's in another state so that my W could have her A without my interference. I'm Mr. Mom, with the W having the good paying job (where she met OM), so I was at a severe disadvantage. Now I am trying to find a job with flexable hours, and two or three sitters. My W doesn't realise the absolute chaos she has caused. It just hasn't hit her yet.

I would love to say things about the OM to her, but knowing her...it would be a LB at this time. My W is very edge and irritable,and its been getting worse over the past couple of years. I think she has the "Electric Fence Personality".

Thank you both for your advice, suggestions, and support. I truly appreciate it. I have no support from anyone I know in person, they either support/enable her A, or are against me saving the M.

Dimmu,

Check out the books from your local library. Check out child support options in the state where you are or where you were. You s/b able to tap into her wages if she kicked you all out.

Ask to e-mail some of the guys here. If we know where you are, there maybe MBers closer than you think. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Don't worry about stressing the WS. They thrive on self imposed stress. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

take care,
L.

It seems anything I do stresses her out. I can't tell if I'm LB'ing half the time, if I am Plan A'ing properly at all, or always be able to pick out the babble from the truth.

I will check out the library here. I am in a small town in western NY, so the library may not have the books I need. I'll check with them tomorrow (after W picks up the kids).

Lots of bad plan Aing in your post dimmu...

use it to learn what not to say...

I asked her if I was doing anything to annoy or anger her lately.

way to needy in plan A...that's pretty much saying...
"tell me I have changed
acknowledge my changes....
tell me about me me me me me..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> "

WS can't adress much about YOU....right now...

I then probbaly screwed up, by bringing up the OM.

NO OM talk...you should say nothing that backs her in to a corner to defend him or speak of him...in a positive to counteract your negative...

do NOT hand her a loaded weapon in the form of your words and interaction...


She also mentioned how I wasn't there for her, blah blah blah when she was the one who wasn't around, always "visiting mom or sis", etc.
this where in plan a you zip your lip and listen listen listen....

don't even think of rebuttals retalitation he said she said powerstruggle...

you want her attention...drop your voice and whisper "I am sorry...so sorry"....

do not defend yourself....

sheesh loose lips sink ships...

and If you are saying the OM is in jail you should be plan aing and charming her socks off!!!!


I asked her if she would be happy if she never saw my face, or spoke to me ever again.

what would you have done if she had said yes...
that's just a dumb question never ever ask that one again...ever.....!!!!!

read up on plan a....
my friend...

he's in jail...
roll with it baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ARK

Even being a FWW & having to deal with my own demons with how it has affected my grown kids, I do think you need to look after your younger aged kids very carefully dimmu.

You really need to protect them from your WW behaviour and irresponsibility. In effect & legally she has abandoned them (& you) and she is legally & morally required to support their upkeep, like any other parent who has done this. Just because its mostly males who act like this doesn't mean she should be treated differently & has no obligations.
You should really apply for sole custody, as would any mom in your situation. You should do this in the state you are now living as this is your place of residence now. This will protect your kids from being assoc with her jailbird boyfriend & his associates.....I mean would you be happy to have them around your kids??? with his recividist history???
Now would be a good time when the boyfriend is in jail AGAIN, a judge would not be impressed with such a man's history & would likely accept they are unsuitable & a RISK to your kids.

She can come to your state and have time with the kids, after all it was HER choice to dump you & the kids all off like so much luggage to run around & please herself....like I did in my own way.. & she like me will have to take responsiblity and accept the consequences.

In addition, it also places you in the drivers seat when or if she wants to reconcile. She will have to really show she is working on the M and not contacting the OM or you need not go back to another state. Maybe you should not anyway. Maybe a new start where you are would help everyone should there be reconciliation, but thats your choice like all of this.

This is just my opinion dimmu taking into account my own behaviour and thoughts during the A, because no one in such a state of mind thinks too much of anyones welfare but their own selfish needs & kids NEED & SHOULD be protected from such actions & the type of people she is associating with now.

I hope you do go get the custody plus support & that it does work out.

Thank you orchid, ark, shmaley, and aussieswife, and everyone else who responded to my other threads, for your sound advice and support. If only I could focus on it when she is near...

She just left with the kids, she will be back tomorrow, early evening...

I managed to stifle my tears until she left...I know from what people have told me that she doesn't want to be around me, because she knows I love her, and she is hurting me... I know she could tell that I was on the brink.

I feel so hopeless right now that I wish that I could just disappear from existence. I keep reading the Plan A article and posts about Plan A, but they just won't register in my brain when I talk to or see her...for example, I found myself bringing up the M, her R with OM (tried to be subtle, but failed miserably)...man I suck. I am going to ruin any chances of anything good happening...I hate myself for it, why can't I do this right?

I tried to give her a hug, and she pushed me away and said "Stop it, I don't like that, I don't want to be with you, as far as I am concerned, its over!" But she let me hug her and kiss her hand before she left.

She told me that she is waiting for OM to get out of jail. That he makes her feel good. She again mentioned in her own way that he probably won't be doing that for her in about six months time (sounds like a temporary affair to get rid of me because she doesn't want to be married anymore, and live her teenage fantasies, which I probably did a LB by telling her she is acting like a teenager). She still claims that they "fooled around", no intercourse. Still claims that they had "no plans" to move me out and build a relationship, but now admits that they talked about it a little bit, but "he won't mess around with married women", so I reminded her that we are still married, and that even though we are 2 1/2 hours apart, we aren't even legally seperated.

She claims she isn't sure what she wants. I asked what was and is wrong that she can throw our marriage away, she said "Nothing is wrong", basically acting like what she is doing is natural. She said she can't open up to me, because she doesn't believe that I won't have any negative reactions. She is acting as though nothing is my business.

She mentioned that me not having a job is a big part of why she feels the way she does. I tried to reverse babble her comments. "I'm sorry that I listened to you about staying at home with the kids, you're right, I shouldn't have listened to you and I should have went and got a job, I'm sorry." We had an agreement that whoever got the better paying job would work, the other would stay home with the kids. So it would seem that she is going to keep having A's until I do everything her way for a certain period of time. At least, that is what is feels like.

Not knowing the truth, what the extent of her relationship with the OM is, what she is feeling, not knowing everything that put us in this situation, is tearing me apart. The only thing keeping me going are my children and this site. I revolved my life around her. I don't even have many friends or supportive family members because I was with her, even though she wasn't always there...I feel that other than the children, there is no positive points to my life. My M is the ultimate failure. Plus, she acts angry and annoyed with me constantly, no more sweetness or niceness like near the beginning of her dumping me and the kids off. Almost everything I say seems to register as a LB.

Here were my Plan A attempts:

Had the coffee pot set up so she could have coffee when she got here.

Offered her something to eat, eggs, cereal, anything (she refused)

Asked how she was doing, if she is okay, happy, etc.

Talked about how our daughter aced the spelling test at school, showed W here homework, and talked about how good she is doing (which is good..I know that this situation is bothering my kids, but they are being strong about it, bless thier little hearts)

Asked if she had a good drive up here.

Mentioned that I have been playing guitar everyday, and have composed a bunch of new riffs and melodies (as a sign that I am not just wallowing in sorrow, that I am doing things that make me try to feel good).

After that, my emotions took over, and Plan A went out the window. My apologies for not being able to follow the advice of all of you who are way better at this than I am. Please be patient with me...half the time I have to deal with WW or when I post on MB, my emotions are raging and all messed up.

aussieswife-

I cannot file for custody for 6 months because of the Uniform Child Custody Jurisdiction Act (which fortunately my WW doesn't know about). Unless I can prove circumstances that would endanger my children if PA holds on to that jurisdiction, NY won't assume jurisdiction for 6 months.

I have proof of infidelity, because the OM's probation officer wanted to see where he sleeps, and my WW took him to our bedroom. Thats when they found MJ plants (OM is involved in drugs and other crimes). She was allowing that to go on for him. She is trying to be a teenager again it would seem. Out of panic and desperation, she signed a false statement that said they were mine, and the state trooper in charge of the investigation got on the phone with me and wanted to know "who has been watering and taking care of these for you for the past 10 days?" Talk about ludicrous. I explained, as logically as I could to this guy, "I took my kids out of there because I didn't like what was going on, my wife is having an affair with the guy you are taking into custody, kicked me out, and my wife won't let me come down there to visit. What makes you think that I would have anything like that there that they would be caring for? Its rediculous." After that, he backed off a bit on me. But I don't know what is going on. Supposedly OM is still in jail, and no charges have been filed on anyone. Her false statement is just another viscious, selfish act. I still don't know why I love her so much after all she has done. She even said this to me "Of course I said they were yours, I wouldn't want OM to be implicated"...she might as well have shot me dead, because thats what it felt like.

So I have no pictures or videos of the parties, the beer bottles strewn about the yard, the smoking in front of the kids while they are there, etc. Just what the cops found, and I don't know what direction they are going with this. I do need a lawyer ASAP that is good, and certified in both states.

She tells me that she will sign over full custody, but hasn't made herself available to do so, and I am trying not to push the issue (because she'll get suspicious, and it will be a LB). So I bring it up, then drop it. She could tell the judge she made a mistake, won't see OM ever again, she has a job and has (A having) family members to watch the kids...whatever she wants. Everyone tells me that its hard for a man to win custody.

I'm trying to Plan A, and get my WW to see logic and reason about her recent departure from her morals, ethics, and convictions, but the kids are far more important, and I might have to Plan B without Plan A'ing long enough, get the lawyer, and sue her for divorce/custody and sue the OM for things I have been looking up. I have two sides to me now. The one who loves WW so much that it hurts and wants to reconcile. The other side says "She'll just do this again, and again, screw it, take her to court!!!" I feel like I have been ripped to shreds.

I just want my W back and my family together, like it was before... she doesn't believe that I can forgive and forget and just be happy together...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Dimmu:
So I have no pictures or videos of the parties, the beer bottles strewn about the yard, the smoking in front of the kids while they are there, etc. Just what the cops found, and I don't know what direction they are going with this.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Find out and remember that filing a false report for the purposes of covering up a crime is a FELONY. If the district attorney in charge of the case reaches that conclusion then I dare say that your WW has gotten herself into a heap of trouble with that false police report she filed. Maybe facing jail time can be just the bucket of cold water reality that she needs to realize how self destructive her behavior has been.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do need a lawyer ASAP that is good, and certified in both states.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Find one that is a pitbull with regards to cases like these with a proven track record [female lawyers are especially good ones]. It may cost you more but it will be cheap compared with hiring a wimpy one. You now have proof that your WW is an unfit parent that should not be given even visitation rights until she gets her act together.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just want my W back and my family together, like it was before... she doesn't believe that I can forgive and forget and just be happy together... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Speaking as someone who was once married to an equally self destructive woman [she has since rebuilt her life], your W will come back the moment she wakes up and commits to both IC and MC. Sadly she'll probably have hit rock bottom before that comes to pass.

<small>[ October 16, 2004, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

I should contact the state trooper in charge and find out what is going on. I find it hard to believe that they would take a statement like that, given the circumstances, but she said thats what she did. It is like I'm in the Twilight Zone...this whole ordeal is so unreal. It is a very surreal experience. My WW's personality has somewhat changed since this all began. And she never did things, until recently, that would jeopardize the custody of her kids. Its crazy. I think that I am still in love with her, because I think she is sick and needs help. But, the blatant acts of cruelty are starting to take thier toll...it feels like she is trying to get me to hate her or something. But it just reinforces my resolve, for now. In a sad way, I wish she would hit rock bottom...no one can reach her, not me, not her kids, her dad, her one cool sister, no one. She does need to wake up and then want to help herself so that she can get help. It saddens me immensly.

Reading through your posts what really hit me was that your ww seems to have a long habit of walking all over you.

I dont think its just the fog as such either.
I do think you may have been conflict avoiding for a long time, mistaking total surrender on what ever she wants for compromise.

Reading between the lines, what I see here is you giving everything on any subject as soon as she brings up the issue.
perhaps this has become a habit over a few years??

Maybe this has arisen from your wish to support your wife while you stay home to look after the kids. I do think she has no respect for you made worse by the fog of the affair.

If I am totally honest with myself I think I had mild comtempt for my H during my affair because he could not work out what was going on. Pretty foggy stuff but there you are. Anyone in this fog is not exactly firing on all cylinders.

I hear what you are saying about the custody laws BUT, a lawyer may be able to advise you if she has 'abandoned' you & the kids by movng you out of your home & dropping you off in another state because I think it qualifies and THAT means you could lodge for it.
Her involvement in illegal activities - because what she has done is illegal - as TMCM said, and the OM living there & going back into jail for beach of parole I am assuming, gives you as the Dad a VERY good chance of FULL sole custody.
Get that lawyer and the advice and DONT keep delaying. Find out NOW about what happened on the drug bust as for all you know they may have made statements saying you are the druggie & how will that go for you getting a job and keeping the kids???? Get onto it now!!!

The plan A stuff sounds SO hard, though I think you need to distance yourself from your ww a bit for YOUR own good.
DON'T try to hug or hold or even touch her right now as it obviously puts her off.
Fog bottom is well & truly running here so you need to know NOT to pay attention to anything she says too much.

Why dont you show her YOU are moving on with your Kids and be happy whenever she sees you,even if it KILLS you, this will have more effect then continouously asking her to come back or think about you, because right now she does not care. Its self, self, self.
At the moment she thinks a man in jail is a better option than you, crazy as that seems it is her thinking.

Show her the man who is holding a job, looking after the kids, has his life 'together' and she will not be able to stop herself comparing jail man to you the shining light.

Stop being the person who hangs onto every word she says or is waiting for that phone call or email. Watch for her reactions when suddenly you are not there for her all the time, or 'you would like too but going out with friends' etc etc.
Stop being so available.

Let her run down into the deep dark bottom because NOTHING you do will stop her, she has to find out for herself like most of us ww.

aussieswife-

You are right on most of your points. I did a lot of conflict avoiding, but a lot of conflict causing as well. My WW and I were in a constant powerstruggle. One reason for the A I think, is that she knows that the shady OM will not argue with her, and will pretty much kiss her @ss. She wants that, and the companionship. Somebody with no history with her, so there is nothing to argue about. Plus it allows her to act like a teenager, etc.

I am working on loans and whatever I can for a lawyer. I think that part of her hitting rock bottom may be for her to recieve a reality check...consequences for her actions and wrong doings. I have been on an emotional rollercoaster ride for the past few weeks. I stayed at my sister's house yesterday, to talk with her and her fiancee, and some of thier friends. After my WW took the kids overnight, I didn't want to be alone, I was so down. But after talking with my sister (who utterly hates my WW), she brought up so many good points that are hard to ignore. Her friend's mom is a lot like my wife, and hasn't changed ever, and thats after getting professional help.

So today, I am really confused at where I stand. Literally half of me wants to save my M, and would do anything to do so. The other half wants to sue for divorce, alimony, child support, sole custody, everything. That half says, this is the second A, not counting the R she had while we were seperated, who knows how many others there were, she cannot be trusted, everything is a lie, its not worth it, she doesn't want to change, she is proud of this radical change in morals and ethics...etc. This paradoxical turmoil is making it hard for me to see any potential for happiness with my WW or anyone else. It leaves me with little hope that things will be alright. I can put on a maks of happiness for the kids, for they need to see that, but inside, I am a ruined man.

She didn't just break my heart, she put it through a chipper-shredder. And she doesn't care.

Thats why Plan A has been so difficult. She is so mean to me now. She is trying to kill the love I still have. She is acting like I have done something horrible to deserve all of this, or thats at least how I perceive the situation.

She was trying to be kind and sweet in the beginning, telling me she feels bad but "this is just the way I feel now, this is just the way it has to be", but (probably dude to my bumbling Plan A'ing and mistakes that people on MB have been pointing out here and there), she is now mean, cold, and distant. She will not tell me anything, she seems to enjoy keeping me in the dark.

I know that many of you on here tell me not to bring up OM, the A, the failed M, any of that. That half that wants to save the M totally agrees. The other half, who is feeling disgusted and dark, and vengeful, wants to tape our conversation when she brings the kids back, and get her to admit some of the vile things she has done, to get her to repeat some of the things that has come out of her mouth. Then I have evidence right out of her mouth for court. Or, she could listen to herself. Maybe that would shock her a little bit. Who knows. I am just rambling on...venting a little maybe. All I know is that I still wish none of this happened, and that she and I and the kids were still living together, relatively happy. That when I went to bed, and when I got up in the morning, she would be there. Now I am empty and alone, while she eats all of her cake.

I just don't know how to proceed...other than get a lawyer, and prepare for the worst...

Well, she came to drop the kids off around noon today. She stayed to watch Kill Bill volume 2 with me. I offered coffee. SHe asked for a blanket, tissue, and 2 ibuprofen, which I promptly got for her. No "thank you's", but I wasn't expecting any.

Before I started the movie, I asked how my BIL was doing (I know that my WW's sister was at my WW's last night with her OM). She said not too good. This started to put me in a mood. My WW and her sister just don't get it, or care, do they? So I say something like, "Yeah, that doesn't surprise me, I know how he feels." She said he stopped taking his medication for his siezures, and had a major one and went to the hospital. I said "Maybe he wants to die." She said, "Yeah, maybe." I ask, "What does your sister have to say about all of this?" And she replies, "She said he is selfish for doing that. Because she has to take care of him and the kids." I was a little heated at this point, and said stuff about "how a lot of WS's just don't understand what they are doing to thier BS's, having all of thier fun, while the BS sits in the background, not knowing the truth, not able to do anything, haha, isn't that funny." Then I realised what I was doing and backed off, and we started the movie.

I asked if she minded if I sit next to her, she said she didn't mind. I asked if I could cuddle up to her, reminded her it didn't have to "mean anything" (I don't know why I said that, still feeling needy and wanted to be close). She said she didn't mind, as long as "you don't start crying on me". I said I wouldn't, and sat right directly next to her for the whole movie. I know some have told me no hugs and what not, but I was sort of testing the waters I guess. She didn't act uncomfortable. It was like it was before. We talked about scenes as we watched them, laughed together at some of the parts we thought were funny, and it was very nice.

After the movie, she said she had to leave, due to the weather, and the 2 1/2 hour drive. We unloaded some of my stuff out of the van that she had brought with her. Then she hugged and kissed the kids, and got into the van. I walked to the door, and she handed me my daughter's booster seat. Then she looked at me and said "You want a hug, don't you?" I said "Only if you want to give me one." S extended her arm and said "Well not really, but I know you'll be upset if I don't give you one." So we hugged. She said she would call in a couple days because "I don't want to talk to you everyday." I can't help but feel that she hates me sometimes.

So I don't know what effects, if any, today had. This is the very first time that I haven't cried at all, when she was here, or when she left. In fact, I don't feel as sad today. But I still feel compelled to continue with my Plan A efforts.

Talk about your ups and downs...

I asked my WW if the other day if she ever spoke to the OM, or visited him in jail. She said he calls her sometimes, and thats it. Well, her dad just informed me on the phone that she told him that she visits him at least once a week.

Which, for some reason, triggered these memories of things she said, before she made me move out.

When I kept fishing for information, because I was suspicious of W and OM, she said these things at two different times:

"If you don't knock it off, I'm going to go a [censored] him right now!"

"If you don't stop it about OM, I'll plant a big fat kiss on him, right when we get home." (OM was a "roommate" at the time)

Isn't that just cruel? I know that in a little bit, I am going to love and miss my WW. But right now, its one of those moments where I want revenge. In fact, the feeling of getting revenge on the first OM never left me completely...now my WW is going out of her way to indulge in her A, at the expense of me and the kids...what can I do? How am I supposed to feel? I am so tempted to sue them both for Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress! Does this confusion, and maelstrom of mixed up emotions ever end? If my M ends, and there ends up being no hope for reconciliation, how can I trust anyone ever again? I can see it now: "You said you would be home an hour and a half ago! Where were you? Who were you with? Whats HIS NAME?" How can I get past that? Even if I master Plan A, and become a better person, does that mean I have nothing to fear? That another A won't happen, whether its my W, or someone else down the road? I almost wish that I could just have these bad memories removed from my mind forever.

Sorry, I just feel like venting today, don't mind me.

bump up

Dimmu,

This isn't going to sound very MB like, but my strong opinion is after reading this thread, like Aussieswife and the others -

I think your energy should be focused on a plan to get custody of your children. Let them be your focus, and try as hard as you can to keep WW out of your mind.

She is just not worth your love, or commitment. There is more to her troubles than her affair.

Do what you can for your kids and yourself. I know it is hard but you can learn to stop focusing on her.

All the best to you Dimmu, and your children.