I'm doing a pretty good job of honoring my BS/WW's wishes and not contacting her during my Plan A, being the dutiful FWH/BH, trying to live my life and fix my issues while she sorts out her anger and devastation over my A's.
In a sense, we're in a pseudo-Plan B (as per my previous thread)

Anyway...

I was thinking yesterday as I was driving around about "ruined places" and "ruined songs"...places and songs that I know the "WW side" of my S would connect to OM.

There's a fancy restaurant downtown that my W and I went to months ago for a "date" - she admitted a few weeks ago she had gone there with OM a few months later and had actually FORGOTTEN THAT SHE AND I WENT THERE. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

There's a wildlife park at the Coast that she and I frequented on weekend trips to the ocean, and a specific hotel we always stayed at, one of our favorite weekend excursions - on the weekend she and OM first moved into a PA, they stayed there and went to that park together, while I was out of town with my band. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I can't even listen to one of my favorite bands, System of A Down, because they are of Armenian descent...and so is her OM. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Is this type of anger a normal part of detaching from her until she figures out what she wants to do, while she either clears or descends deeper into her fog?
I'm finding myself adopting a bit more of a "to he11 with her" attitude, which I know is hypocritical considering my behavior, and is destructive since I DO love her and want her back.

This lack of contact with her is doing a number on my feelings for her, at least on the surface...

<small>[ October 18, 2004, 02:29 AM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

VnusMars,

I clicked on your link and read it. All I can say is that you have been one busy man with the women.

I think that it would be in your best interest to STOP thinking about what she is now doing to you...and start concentrating on what you need to do to better yourself.

I have a hard time understanding why all the resentment with places and songs...yes, I know people can feel what they want...it's just strange that in the midst of ALL you have done, that you still have room to feel resentment about what she has done. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

How can she even be sure that you are serious? Your track record isn't very good ya know.

Concentrate on yourself...let her go for now.

JMHO
committed

Your anger is normal because your Taker is getting stronger due to your Giver's giving, and giving, while your WW uses your ONS as an excuse to continue her affair which started before she knew about yours [can you spell HYPOCRISY?]. The problem is that your Taker can easily sabotage all your hard work in Plan A. Here is something from Coping with Infidelity: Part 4 Overcoming Resentment:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Using resentment as a way to control and punish a spouse.

I'm convinced that what's kept the resentment of S.R.'s husband alive for so many years is that he has found it to be an effective way to control and punish her whenever she doesn't do what he wants. Whenever they have a fight, he brings it up, and it causes her such guilt that it gives him a decided advantage in winning the argument.

By this time, I don't believe that her affair is the problem that she thinks it is. Instead, it is an issue that her husband is using to get the upper hand in his relationship with her. It probably shows up the most whenever she has been reluctant to have sex with him. It throws her off balance whenever he mentions it, and makes her feel guilty, wanting to make it up to him somehow. He may also bring it up whenever she is winning in a power struggle he is having with her.

What she describes to me in her letter is abuse, pure and simple. There is no excuse for the way her husband keeps bringing up her moment of weakness she experienced years ago. He is disrespectful and abusive.

I suggest that she look him right in the eye and say to him, "Listen Buster, do you love me? Do you want me to love you? Do you want to spend the rest of your life with me? If the answers to any of those questions is 'yes' you sure are going about it the wrong way. You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!"

What if he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all."

To that I would say, "It's up to you. I married you for life, but if you want a divorce, it's your call. If you want to be in a love relationship with me, however, you're going to have to treat me much better than you have been treating me. You must never again bring up my affair, and if you are upset with me, you will have to treat me with respect until we can solve the problem. If you are upset with our sexual relationship, I want us to discuss it as adults and solve it with mutual respect. I refuse to be treated like this, especially by the man I love."

My advice to her husband is to never mention her affair again. It's a good example of one of the enemies of good conversation, dwelling on past mistakes. Whenever you keep bringing up your spouses past mistakes, you not only make your conversations incredibly unpleasant, but it cannot possibly lead to a resolution of a conflict you may be discussing. And as soon as his resentment doesn't pay him any dividends -- no longer helps him get his way -- he will find that it hardly ever occurs to him.

Hanging on to an unpleasant thought because it helps us somehow is what psychologists call "secondary gain." It means that even though the thought is unpleasant, it gets you something you need, so your mind keeps it around for its usefulness. There are many unpleasant thoughts that have this characteristic, and I have helped many people let them go by helping them destroy the usefulness of the thought. Making sure that S.K.'s husband never gets what he wants by bringing up her affair will help him overcome his resentment. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Granted that your situation and that of the FWW are different [her H was not a FWH like you] but eventually you will have to have the talk that Dr Harley recommended to the FWW with her BH, otherwise even if your WW comes back to you, she will continue to use her resentment as a way to control and punish you.

VnusMars that next time she blasts you about your ONS, calmly, quietly, and respectfully ask her "And how many ONS have you had with the OM?" and leave her alone to ponder your question [hang up on her if you must]. Oh she will be extremely PO'd for your afront in comparing your ONS with hers, but it is only because it is the truth and her overinflated ego doesn't allow her to see that what she is doing is just as bad as what you did. When she calms down, she won't be able to escape the truth behind your question that 'her sh** does stink'.

<small>[ October 16, 2004, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> VnusMars that next time she blasts you about your ONS, calmly, quietly, and respectfully ask her "And how many ONS have you had with the OM?" and leave her alone to ponder your question [hang up on her if you must]. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TMCM,

Which ONS would that be?

I read his link and it is showing

a ONS in 1999...

a ONS in 2002 (along with an EA with "A" which turns physical)...

ONS in 2004 (along with an EA with "B2"...month long PA with "D"...few months later one with "K" all the time still boinking "A").

Which "1" ONS are you referring to?

He should be showing a little bit of humbleness in that he has been spreading his around for quite some while.

Neither one has respect for the marriage vows, so it seems a little hypocritical for him to point out what SHE is doing. I would hazard a guess and say that she is thinking the same thing.

IMHO, he doesn't have the right to get all indignant with her. It's the pot calling the kettle black.

He needs to concentrate on himself and why he is a serial cheater. Leave her alone...don't talk to her...don't play any type of game with her.

Take care to FIX himself.

committed

Committedandlovingit,

My point was not to minimize the severity of his multiple ONS but to point out that even though she is allegedly having an affair with one OM, every time she has sex with the OM is the equivalent of a ONS.

I do agree with you that he needs to continue working on himself whether or not his WW comes back BUT even if he never had his ONS,he has to draw the line as to how much abuse he is willing to endure from a woman who is no better than he is. I still stand by earlier post in that if she contacts him again and begins blasting him for his ONS, he should calmly, quietly, and respectfully ask her that question and leave her alone to ponder the truth behind it.

Committed & TMCM...
Thanks so much for your honest replies.

I have 2 things to say to Committed as to my mental state:

1. While my sins may be "worse" to you than hers, they are in the PAST and hers continue now and into the future for all I know. I don't expect her to care that I'm no longer involved with OW, but I do care.
I care because the presence of OM is confusing her and allowing her to make rationalizations and justifications that are illogical. I DO want us both to get to a place where we're dealing and healing, and she's not there yet because of him. He is confusing matters, and hopefully my Plan A'ing will make her see this.

2. The thought that a person can't be jealous and mad just because they've committed their own crimes is silly.
My anger/frustration with her does not excuse my actions, but it exists, and it's valid. She IS my wife and she DID violate our vows. My own violations don't minimize my pain over that, nor should they. If I didn't care about her OM, then I would have no business being here and trying to rebuild what we DID have.

Yes, I am probably being more patient with her than I normally would be because I DID mess things up too. If I were totally innocent, I can't say that I'd be here, honestly.

TMCM...
I understand about the Giver/Taker. I think, honestly, though...that I'm just trying to momentarily ease the pain of her current NC and her visit to see him. I don't REALLY have this anger & pain, but I did when I posted, and now it's gone. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

VnusMars...I have little to add to what TMCM said..except to say that I think you are doing an admirable job- and that my thoughts and prayers are with you.... I so hope to hear a happy ending someday on this board from you!

I just scared the living crap out of myself about 10 minutes ago.

I was driving home from watching a friend's band play tonight, sad and starting to cry over my BS/WW...and suddenly something hit me...

Something that TMCM, SadFWW, and others have been telling me for awhile now...
And it suddenly hit home...

I have every right to be an upset and devastated BS.

This past 5 days of NC with my BS/WW has been an eye-opener of sorts. Without the daily, no, HOURLY concern over what she's doing and how I can get her back, I've had time to reflect and came to these conclusions:

</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I sinned terribly and violated our M vows by having multiple PA's and ONS's over the course of a few years time</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My W sinned terribly and violated our M vows by having one EA/PA over the course of a few weeks time</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I never had any intention of leaving my W, despite my A's, and once the truth was out never honestly wanted to end our M</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She was prepared to either leave me or rebuild our M, and once the truth was out hasn't really decided whether or not she wants to end our M</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My A's were not the result of something MISSING from our M, but I still should have been honest with her long before they started</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Her A was the result of something MISSING from out M, but she still should have been honest with me long before it started</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The root cause and primary motivator for my A's was the need to have my ego stroked and self-esteem boosted</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The root cause and primary motivator for my W's A was that she was out-growing me and my lifestyle</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wasn't strong enough to be honest with her and tell her what was going on when I had the chance to salvage our M, before it was too late</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SHE wasn't strong enough to be honest with me and tell me what was going on when she had the chance to salvage our M, before it was too late</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Once the truth was out, I buckled down, got into Plan A and am dramatically changing my life and myself, "killing off" the man I was that caused her to cheat to begin with</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Once the truth was out, she was unapologetic, unchanging, continues to waffle, fog-talk, and lovebust and is still with OM while she also continues to give me SOME hope that we will work out our M someday</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
There is one phrase that rings loud and clear in my head, something she has said a few times...

"I was getting ready to tell you about OM and was prepared for you to tell me to get out for good," and "I was ready to leave you."
Sure, these could be fog-talk, but...

She started her A with no knowledge of any of my infidelities, and is continuing it now justified by my infidelities.

I've been walking around this whole last month in Plan A thinking "yeah, but I'm not really a BS because I cheated on her WORSE than she cheated on me"....SHE is the one crying all the time and berating me for my infidelities...do I berate her for hers?
She is acting like the victim, and barely acknowledging her role as a perpetrator. Meanwhile, I am acting the role of perpetrator and barely acknowledging my role as victim.

Her A started and continues completely unrelated to my A's. I have a feeling that had she been able to tell me of her A first, before she discovered mine...and I said "no stay I want to work it out"...that she may have STILL said "no, I don't want to be with you anymore."

My Plan A is much more a regular Plan A than I have been able to admit to myself.
Yes, if you're comparing notes my A's were more "heinous" than hers...but were they really? I had multiple PA's, but I never fell in love, and I never was in a "committed" R to anyone.
Meanwhile, my WW is in a full-fledged EA/PA with her OM, and has talked about being with him for good, living together, having a kid, etc.

Whose sin is worse, really? I think they're more evenly matched than she will admit in her fog-talk and portrayal of herself as the victim.

I will continue in my Plan A. But now I feel much more justified in looking at it as a true Plan A than I would let myself admit before. I'm not going to play 95% perp/5% victim anymore, it's time to start balancing the odds somewhat.

NOW...if her A had started as a revenge A, this whole thing would be shot to he11. It's the fact that her A started totally separate from anything I was doing...THAT is the killer.

Again, these are all concepts TMCM and others have tried to drive home these last few weeks, but I was too tied up in begging/pleading my W to take me back, fulfilling her EN's in Plan A, and playing "evil cheater" to realize the depth of HER sins.

I'm much more confident with this psuedo-Plan B we're in now, and as was suggested by RookKev before, will find it much easier to emotionally detach from her once she DOES contact me again.

Wonder how she'll react when she sees me exposing her A for the sin that it is, when she has to accept that my infidelities do not justify or explain her A in any way shape or form?

I'm finally starting to accept that if she never comes back, I really WILL be OK, and someone new will come along later that will be very good for me.

The only thing I fear is that this "hardening" of my heart, this "loss" of some of my desire to have her come running back into my arms...is fueled more by my Taker than my Giver.


Or am I just finally being realistic about all of this, and just needed a few days of NO BS/WW to figure it out?

<small>[ October 17, 2004, 04:02 AM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

quote:
She started her A with no knowledge of any of my infidelities, and is continuing it now justified by my infidelities.

quote:
1999: started long-distance with a married woman I met at a show with former band. "J" discovered the affair through my chat program a few months later. I immediately cut off the affair and started to rebuild the marriage.


VM,
Looks to me as if you are trying to rewrite a little history here. Which is it?

I would venture to say she ALWAYS knew that you were cheating on her.(remember how you met her?) Most women know when something is wrong no matter how much you try to hide it. You are wasting time by placing blame on either one of you. DON"T GO THERE.

You are allowed to be angry with her, but remember that she is also allowed to be angry with you. You seem to want to forget that.

I find it interesting that you are doing plan A and it doesn't seem to be working. On the other hand, she is doing nothing to nurture your relationship and you want her badly. You may want to consider stopping plan A and doing what she is doing. ??? Chasing women who are distancing themselves from you DOES NOT WORK. Leave her alone, get some self esteem and confidence. Stop talking about the relationship, and TAKE OFF THE PRESSURE and keep it off. You should know from your past experience from being in a band and your experience with women that you don't need to chase them because they prefer to chase.(sorry people but just telling the truth) If she cares anything at all about you, then she will be back. You have to distance yourself from her in order to draw her back toward you. Always be nice though... Think about it...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have 2 things to say to Committed as to my mental state:

1. While my sins may be "worse" to you than hers, they are in the PAST and hers continue now and into the future for all I know. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's just it...I didn't say that yours are worse. I am trying to tell you that it is NOT a contest of who did the worse to whom...so that someone has the right to be MORE devastated than the other. It isn't a peeing contest ya know.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 2. The thought that a person can't be jealous and mad just because they've committed their own crimes is silly. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn't say you can't be jealous and mad.

I said that *I* have a hard time understanding it...and that people can have those feelings.

The infidelities cannot be weighed out to see who did the worst amount of damage.

AND, I have to admit... I bet your wife has known all along about your many ONSs and your long term physical relationships with quite a few women. She might not know about ALL of them..but she has a good idea about a few of them.

It doesn't excuse what she is doing... she is doing a lot of "acting out".

THAT is why I said to ONLY concentrate on yourself..and your own healing.

It hasn't been that long that you have stopped.

JMHO
committed

<small>[ October 17, 2004, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: committedandlovingit ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I still stand by earlier post in that if she contacts him again and begins blasting him for his ONS, he should calmly, quietly, and respectfully ask her that question and leave her alone to ponder the truth behind it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TMCM,

I guess that my answer would be for him to include himself in that remark.

"We BOTH have done damage to our marriage and I would like for us BOTH to stop and see if we can salvage it".

My opinion is that comment would go a bit further with her.

committed

VnusMars

Dr Harley plainly states that the BS should agree to meet the WS EN after the affair ends. As you've seen firsthand, it is totally pointless for a BS to even try meeting the EN of a WS while the affair is ongoing so back off. Plan A is about negotiating with the WS an end to the affair while avoiding love busters [selfish demands, angry outbursts, and disrespectful judgements] and agreeing to meet the WS long neglected EN, after the WS agrees to end his/her affair. Plan A includes exposure IF the WS refuses to end the affair after D-day. Plan A is NOT about the BS becoming a doormat for the WS, and make no mistake about it, your W is NOW the WS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The root cause and primary motivator for my W's A was that she was out-growing me and my lifestyle.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> . ANY extra marital affair is actually a sign of inmaturity. If she was as mature as she says she is then she would have taken the route of divorcing you BEFORE she got involved with another man. Mature people do not fear ending a destructive relationship and being by themselves.


committedandlovingit

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by committedandlovingit:

"We BOTH have done damage to our marriage and I would like for us BOTH to stop and see if we can salvage it".</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree that this would be a better comment and I would just add the following part to it:

"We BOTH have and STILL ARE doing damage to our marriage. I would like for us BOTH to stop and see if we can salvage it. I will forever and deeply regret my infidelities and their destructive consequences but I WILL eventually move on with or without you. I would like it to be with you but the choice is yours".

This reiterates his acknowledgement of his destructive actions but makes it plainly clear to her that he is NOT going to wait forever for her to decide and that the ball is now on her side of the court as to whether or not she wants to continue the marriage. An ultimatum? No just a statement of fact.

<small>[ October 17, 2004, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

"We BOTH have and STILL ARE doing damage to our marriage. I would like for us BOTH to stop and see if we can salvage it. I will forever and deeply regret my infidelities and their destructive consequences but I WILL eventually move on with or without you. I would like it to be with you but the choice is yours".


Very well sums in one statement the entire truth of the situation, and I think what Vnus's WW needs to to hear. I think this has been her point in all of the emails I have read from her - that Vnus is doing anything at any cost to get her back, not because of love but because of her view of his very large ego. Also sums up what Rookev was saying when he advised that Vnus let her know that he would be there but only for so long.

It (getting back with WW) is not only about desire and bruised ego, it is about forming a partnership, a productive and loving marriage. If Vnus' needy ego has been dealt with, and true enlightnment has been gained, then Vnus would not wait at any cost, for how ever long it takes. This is why Plan A must have a time limit or it is counterproductive.

Very well said Weaver.

I don't blame VnusMars WW skepticism of her FWH claims of being a different man in such short period of time. Just look at skepticism of the BH's of missinghimterribly, dontwanttolosehim, and rae03 who had ONS to get an idea how this is a typical reaction for many a BS. If I was in her shoes I'd probably feel the same way, but she must be told that she cannot use VnusMars remorse to punish him over his ONS while continuing her EA/PA with the OM [she has lost the moral ground]. If she no longer wants to be married to VnusMars that is her right and she should then proceed with divorce BUT if she is unsure and wants to string him along for an undefined period of time, then she is wrong and must be made aware that her choice to end or save the marriage WILL be taken away from her eventually.

WOW, thanks everyone, I didn't expect to inspire such a long reponse overnight (since I typed that post at 2am...eesh)!

Y'all are very right.
As I said, I've been playing a 100:1 perpetrator:victim game with myself, where I have admitted my guilt in heinous acts and fessed up to and taken responsibility for them...but also allowed myself to be hurt and frustrated by my W's continuing A. And I haven't felt justified in standing my ground and seeing her as a perpetrator too. I feel like I've become somewhat of a doormat up until last Tuesday when she initiated NC.

She was allowed to love me whenever/however/wherever she wanted to, unconditionally, but still run off to the East Coast or call/email/chat with him (with my full knowledge that this is going on), still use him as a way to keep me in line and not get my hopes up, and I could say nothing about it to her or I was labeled a "hypocrite" and "avoiding my own problems."

I was under the impression that Plan A meant I had to lavish EN and attention and love on her so she had no choice but to choose the better of two evils. I didn't realize Plan A didn't consist of fulfilling EN's and using that as a negotiation tool. I shot myself in the foot on that one, because the smothering effects of that attention probably lead directly to this current NC.

My constant fawning and trying to see her/talk to her was the same as throwing astroturf on my back and stamping me with the word "WELCOME."

And truthfully, I think SHE was getting sick of using me as a doormat, sick of the confusing feelings of having melancholy me around all the time, but still involved with him.

She needed a break. And yes, this break allows her to continue her A with him (it has no impact on how quickly it develops, fortunately), but all I can do is trust that she will wise up eventually and end that R to begin work on her and I. But yes, she will only do this if she sees me changing first.

She even said, verbatim to me "you're going to have to demonstrate change because if I give up OM to work it out with you and you do this to me again I will honestly kill you." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Yeah, a bit of fog talk, but it illuminated something that made me lose a touch of respect for her:

She's holding on to him until I've proven myself to her, and THEN she will decide what to do.
Hypocritical and misguided? Yes. And hopefully this "break" will illuminate that for her. Hopefully she'll start to see the error of her ways as I have.

So...with y'all's help I think I'm coming around to a rational approach to all of this - just as irrational as it is to LB and freak out, so it was irrational for me to use Plan A as an excuse to be underfoot as much as possible.

Either extreme only serves to push her away.
At least if I start focusing on ME and let time run its course with her, I'll maintain my sanity until she makes a decision.

I DO have a time limit for Plan A.


I'm targeting February 2005.
Logistical reasons:
That's the month the lease on our apartment is up, and according to last word, she will move into a 1-bedroom apartment alone (one that she said "you can move into with me if we decide to work it out...hmmm).
By her moving, it will release me from a big chunk of voluntary financial assistance to her (I still pay my half of rent and bills on our place, as well as at my new residence).
And I think that's a reasonable timeframe for her A with OM to fizzle out or strengthen depending on what she wants.

Mental/Emotional reasons:
She needs time and patience more than anything right now, and 4 months seems like a good amount of time for her to at least come to some kernel of an idea of what she wants, and realize the truth of the situation that she doesn't yet see. And it may take that length of time for her to see real change in me and trade her skepticism that I can't change for hope that I actually am changing.

I will use this time inbetween to try and make her realize the truth of that statement:
"We BOTH have and STILL ARE doing damage to our marriage. I would like for us BOTH to stop and see if we can salvage it. I will forever and deeply regret my infidelities and their destructive consequences but I WILL eventually move on with or without you. I would like it to be with you but the choice is yours".

It also gives me ample time to get comfortable with myself, start my own life, start my healing and my growth, and be ready for whichever direction things take. Time to make myself attractive to her again because for once I'm INDEPENDENT.

Speaking of which...
I actually had a pretty darn good weekend, for once, especially considering she was 2000 miles away with OM the whole time. I kept myself busy with projects and friends and DVD's, and I'm feeling pretty alright.
She returns in about 7 hours, I'm sure I won't hear from her at all except for maybe a TM "I'm home now."
I did follow through on my promise to take care of the kitties this weekend, and I did finish installing software on her computer and even loaded the dishwasher for her, so she'll notice that too I'm sure.

Thanks everyone...I'll keep you posted, but things are moving along rather nicely again.

ONE question, though: would you all still recommend a degree of emotional detachment if she DOES start to contact me again? Geez...ya know what...in a way I'm finding myself hoping she DOESN'T....... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

<small>[ October 17, 2004, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

ONE question, though: would you all still recommend a degree of emotional detachment if she DOES start to contact me again? Geez...ya know what...in a way I'm finding myself hoping she DOESN'T.......


Absolutely! In all honesty, how "emotionally attached" could you be to someone who is sexually involved with another? Besides, she asked for this from you, so give it to her. Time for her to start thinking about what SHE will be losing, and not just about what you will be losing.

If she tries to contact you and talk to you about her and/or the OM, interrupt her and let her know that you are not interested in what she and the OM did and to please keep it to herself. This is not for the purpose of being mean or nasty to her but to let her know that you, as her husband, will no longer tolerate being treated with disrespect [boundary]. If she becomes belligerent and tries her old 'you are a monster blah, blah, blah' stick, then give her the script:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"We BOTH have and STILL ARE doing damage to our marriage. I would like for us BOTH to stop and see if we can salvage it. I will forever and deeply regret my infidelities and their destructive consequences but I WILL eventually move on with or without you. I would like it to be with you but the choice is yours".</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The thing you have to keep in mind is that just as you would never expect her to take back the old, 'Mr ONS' VnusMars, she should not expect you to take back the unrepentant EA/PA cake eating woman she is at this moment. Boundaries, VnusMars, Boundaries.

<small>[ October 17, 2004, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Weaver, TMCM, thanks again so much...

You're right. It's time to take that sadness, anger and fear I feel over her A with OM and turn it into a defense mechanism to protect myself.

I guess the overarching principle at work here, and the principle I'd love to say to her, is:
"I sinned terribly against our vows and against you. I have repented them and am working on preventing them from happening again.
You also violated our marriage vows and continue to do so because you are confused and uncertain about what you want for the future - is it him, me, or someone else? Before you can figure that out you have to quit dwelling on what HAS happened.
Let's look FORWARD instead of BACKWARD."

That seems to be what she's doing - punishing me, blaming me, "hating" me, feeling no guilt over her A, justifying her behavior, etc.etc.....
based on what I HAVE done, and isn't yet to the point where she can look at where I AM and WE ARE going.

Whereas...I have acknowledged my crimes & sins, admitted them fully, flogged myself internally for letting those things happen, and am fully willing to do whatever it takes to atone for them and rebuild my marriage, or atone for them and face a new R down the road with a new perspective on lessons learned.

My mindset dwells in the FUTURE, while hers still dwells in the PAST, and in the incessant waffling over an uncertain future. She would do herself a big favor by cutting him off, cutting ME off, cutting EVERYONE off, and just taking some time alone to get her head together. I hope she does that soon.

I would've said something to that effect to her awhile back, but I was very afraid of the "cut ME off, too" part because I was clinging on for dear life....not now. Perhaps I can say that to her now, knowing I have nothing to lose.

An interesting thing she said awhile back:
We took a trip to Eastern Europe a few years back, and we fell in love with the Istrian Peninsula in Croatia.
She said to me - "when this all blows over and my life feels normal again, I want to go sit on that bench in Rovinj and watch the Adriatic Sea, and just be at peace with myself."
Hmmm...maybe she already realizes she needs to be ALONE with herself to figure all this out?

<small>[ October 17, 2004, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

Well...like I said before, my BS/WW decided to NC me on Tuesday night, and between then and tonight (Sunday) the only words we exchanged were a couple of quick "have a safe trip" and "thanks" TM's on the cell phones.

She IM'd me tonight...
And TMCM and Weaver especially will be partly happy, partly upset about how it went...

</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Started off just a "thanks for taking care of the kitties" thing - as I expected.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then she said "it's not fair of you to do that so you don't have to" - meaning "since you're not really in my life anymore you shouldn't feel obligated"</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She said "This isn't fair to you, I understand if you want to cut all ties with me" more than a few times...and she mentioned DV once, in passing</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My response to that each time was "I'm taking care of my business and waiting for you to figure out what you want, I'm not going to make that decision, you're going to have to"</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But...I also said at one point "I can't say I'll wait around forever, but I want to work on us when you're ready" - she said "that's fair"</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She said "I'm falling in love with OM, just thought you should know"</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lots of the same old tirades and abuse against me for my multiple A's and how sick and messed up I am and how much damage I've done, but...</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This time, rather than be a doormat, I brought up her A with OM and made some comparisons, and of course, stood my ground...mostly in a non-LBing kinda way...and as predicted,</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She went BONKERS and started saying hers isn't really an A because I know all about it, we're not "emotionally married," just on paper, and she doesn't regret it at all</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I told her that I would rather she just be ALONE rather than have either him or me so she could clear her mind - to which she said "why would I cut off that sweet man???"</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then in the next sentence she said "I'm technically alone, I feel single"...well, which one is it, woman?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then, she also said "I thought about you all weekend"</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"My heart is aching for you"</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Maybe our paths will cross somewhere down the road"</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I told her how this quiet and alone time has been good for me, I'm feeling more independent</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I asked her if we could go back to talking/seeing each other every few days or so rather than NC whatsoever and she said yes, but...</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not going to be the one to initiate it, she'll have to email/call me first! Her birthday is this weekend, though...</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We also talked a little about non-R things, her Mom's new house, kitties, music, etc. It was nice.</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

So...there were some discussions in there that were less than productive, not very Plan A, but rather than being just another her:b1tch/me:doormat fest, I actually talked more about the "sin" of her A and stood my ground than I have in the past.

I spoke more rationally and with less of the "oh baby I'm so sorry I love you so much" kind of stuff...and showed her I'm being more independent and not clingy/needy. I think she sensed a difference, a certainty in what I was saying. One thing is, she can't ever accuse me of waffling or being wishy-washy or confusing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


So we shall see how it plays out!

The part about her falling in love with OM stuck me hard...I'm hoping it was just fog talk induced by a 3-day weekend with OM (she said "he cried when I left"...I was thinking "yeah, so did I"), but part of me thinks it's not 100% that.

I think she WANTS to fall in love with him and kill the part that loves me, but is afraid to do so. She has said, and said again tonight that she basically wishes that the part of her that still thinks about me all the time is a part she wishes would "get out of her head" to use her words.

Any input, feedback from this summary? I wish I could log the chats so I could re-read them.

<small>[ October 18, 2004, 03:11 AM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>