Bob,

I was tempted to just reply on one of your threads--either the "I am ALONE" thread or the "Rollercoaster" thread--but I thought I might get lost in the shuffle, and what I have to say is extremely important.

For a long time now, we have really hung in with you and (I hope) encouraged you and prodded you on to continue to Plan A when it felt like you couldn't go on any longer. You stayed the course and had endurance beyond what you thought was humanly possible--and in the end, the A was ended, OM dumped FWW, and she chose to stay in the M. Now...just so you know, she could have been dumped by OM and decided "Hey, apparently I didn't love Bob, since I chased OM, so I better get a divorce" and hardened her heart to reconciling. Instead, she chose to return to a place that she thought would be humiliating. That speaks a volume, don't you think?

HOWEVER (big "however" here), once she ended contact and indicated she was going to stay in the marriage, something strange happened. The strong, confident, hero-leader Bob Pure disappeared and in his place (?alien invasion??) was a passive, subservient fellow whom I do not recognize. While your FWW was actively pursuing her A, you grew, Bob. You became a full-fledged, masculine hero--discovering a depth of love that is admirable...behaving in manly ways that were worthy of admiration...being the father your children needed...re-becoming the man your FWW could look up to and hero-worship a little. You learned about MATURE relationships and love. You learned about how affairs are born, and how they die. You learned about emotional needs and lovebusters, and you learned about YOURSELF and ways that YOU fell short and how YOU had contributed to the disintegration of the marriage.

Then your FWW's A ended and that new, brave Bob left the fate of himself, his family, and his marriage in the hands of his foggy FWW. Dear brother, whilst you were in the middle of being betrayed and your heart was being torn in two, YOU MATURED. At the same time, your FWW was not thinking clearly or maturely, and in fact she was in quite a fantasy/foggy state! Those of us who are BS's have seen this over and over again, and even though we may love our WS's--they just are not thinking clearly!!! While the A was going full blast, you became the leader of your family and took hold of the reins--you did what was best for your WIFE even though she was angry with you and it hurt for a while; you did what was best for your KIDS even though it meant protecting them from the behavior of their own mother and pursuing their best interests even if it made your wife "unhappy"; and you did what was in YOUR OWN best interests even though it was difficult for you to face and even though it meant facing the possibility of losing your marriage! You were BRAVE, and you did what was RIGHT even if it was hard. Suddenly, your foggy FWW comes back home, and you turn those reins right back over to her!! She's possibly still not thinking clearly, she may still be in "fantasy land", and you are letting her run the show!

Soooo...I am calling out to that brave, hero Bob whom we all know is in there to step back into the picture. Bob, you are the leader of your family considering the thoughts and requests of your family, but doing what is in their best interests even when it's not easy. Do you think it is in your marriage's best interests to let the pace of your recovery be determined by the foggy-one? Do you think it is in your marriage's best interests to "pretend" you are all getting along, avoid the issues, put off facing the consequences of what has been done to you? Or is it in your marriage's best interests to have the strong, mature MAN in the marriage step up to the plate, bravely start the reconciliation process, and squarely face the issues HEAD ON and start the healing?? Do you think it is in your family's best interests to have their mom and dad slowly fall apart because mom and dad won't be brave or face the betrayal? Do you think it is in your family's best interests for dad to slowly deteriorate, while mom avoids her responsibility?

Bob, I truly believe in POJA--doing nothing until both parties are ENTHUSIASTIC about it--and in this instance you are just not okay with continuing to ignore your hurt, ignore the affair, or ignore your needs. It just is not okay with you!! Thus, it just is not okay to continue to ignore. My friend, you feel conflicted and sick inside partially because it is not okay with you and you are not standing up for your true self. You now know how to be a strong, leader, hero-man and you feel like gooey tarpaper inside because you are not being that brave hero. BE A HERO.

* * * * * * * * * *

In one of your recent posts, you summarily wrote that we are alone--that we enter the world naked and alone, and we die naked and alone. That even though we may have the illusion of "becoming one" with another human being, it was not really true. WE are alone! Well...this is a bitter pill to swallow, tall hairy one, but this is in fact the truth.

I think what is truly bugging you is that you are mourning the loss of your illusion. Frankly, Bob, that was what hurt me the worst...loosing the illusion. For my whole married life, I thought we were somehow special--that charmed, blessed couple who would never split up. He loved me and I loved him; and and I was there to make him happy, and he was there to make me happy. We were equally tangled up in each other emotionally, physically, and on all levels. Then, when he left for the OW, I realized that I was responsible for me. AARRGGHH!! I felt kind of abandoned, because I thought HE was supposed to "be there" for me!

I actually really mourned losing my "marriage illusion" more than I mourned my husband. He had treated me so poorly and painfully that I was starting to recover from that abuse, but my ILLUSION! I lost what I considered to be my foundation of what I thought a relationship WAS!! My foundation was completely cracked and demolished, and I mourned and grieved for losing it! And Bob, this is close to what I think you are going through. I suspect that on some level you knew that you were responsible for you and that your wife could not be the peg that filled your hole...and it feels pretty lonely to be alone. BUT--the part that really hurts is that you had build an understanding of what you THOUGHT you had, and now it is biting you in the face that YOU DON'T HAVE THAT!!!

So you're mourning the loss of your marriage illusion. You had viewed it from an intertangled point of view, and you are being painfully shown that you are actually alone. Okay...you kinda knew that! But now you have to rebuild your concept...and you miss the concept you had! You want that old concept back, and you know that you can't have it. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Brother Bob, you are alone. You are responsible for you, and you are not entangled with another human. But...you can have an intimate relationship with another human being--you being yourself and choosing to be close to someone, and her being herself and choosing to be close to you. Does that make sense? You are alone, and she is alone--but the two of you CHOOSE to be together. Marriage is not over--just your illusion of it.

* * * * * * * * * * *

Finally, forgiveness. Bob, I don't want to send out a bunch of bible-thumping about forgiving your FWW and "letting go" and "moving on". However, I will say this. What your FWW did is not the kind of thing that can usually be amended, because in order to amend logic would dictate that she be hurt too.

I think that we are talking about two different kinds of forgiveness here. One kind of forgiveness is the kind where the injuring party comes to the injured, repents and repairs--and then forgiveness is offered by the injured. The other kind of forgiveness is the kind where the injuring party never, ever does repent or even admit that they did wrong...much less make any attempt to repair the damage. That kind of forgiveness is the kind where you need to release it and let it go for your own good and for your own mental health.

At this point, I would like to suggest that you work on the "release it for your own mental health" kind of forgiveness. I would also suggest that you continue to tell your wife out loud that you need her to apologize!

Take care, Bob...I can see that you are clearly in pain!!


CJ

Strong meat CJ. Not sure what to say....
During plan A fear and indignation fuelled me as well as love. Yes I am proud that I recognise the man you describe as myself at that time, only a month or so ago.

There are two problems now - one is I am not angry and indigant anymore, so I am not passion fuelled in my crusade to rescue my fair damsel from the clutches of the fog dragon. She is home, and frankly disappointing... isn;t the fair damsel supposed to kiss prince charming and ride off with him to live happily ever after ?

MY damsel seems pretty p1ssed that I killed the dragon, keeps the dragons love letters to her in a safe place and wants only to live in a gently growing, loving M without addressing uncomfortable issues, like she CHOSE to be captured by the dragon...

So here I am, armour on, sword out and no dragon to slay. The battle afoot is a guerilla war now, likely to last a long time.

The second challenge is frankly, CJ, I'm not sure what to do. I'm not sure what my objective is and what my tools are.

Plan A was easy by comparison. The 'picture on the carton' of Plan A is a dead affair and a returned and recommitted FWW.

What does a 'recovered Marriage' look like ? The carton has is a white 'draw it yourself' covering ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I wrote down what I want my M to be after recovery:
It is:
POJA everything
Romantic love
Trust through openness
Repentance/forgiveness to each other
CHOOSING to spend time together
No 'nice feelings' regarding A from my FWW
No bitterness regarding a from me
God in the captains seat of our M.
And some other stuff...

I cannot tell what my FWW wants because she has stopped discussing R stuff with me. She talks enthusiastically about our future and our pre-A past, she is more affectionate to me each week, she almost demands hi-quality SF all the time but won't let me in her head.

I WANT to be brave and heroic and stuff in recovery but only one hand is clapping right now CJ.
So having studied everything I have avaiable I determined that the indications are my FWW is still withdrawing after only a month since OM dumped her. Bear in mind we had been recovering and had C for three weeks before then and MY FWW called oM to ask " where do I stand?". Its my guess she felt herself becoming comfortable with me and her old life but wouldnt commit to it while there was ANY CHANCE OM would want her.

He didn't. Told her he wished he'd never met her and never to contact him again. So 'see CJ I am the consolation prize right now.

I am suspicious of her affection, her reticence to discuss A and recovery, her sheer 'normalcy'.

I am not motivated to invest all that grit again when , frankly, I know am the last chicken in the shop to FWW.

I have determined that while my FWW needs more time and space from OM last contact, the best I can do for my kids , my FWW and myself is to be the most loving and supportive Dad and husband I can be, testing the water occasionally to see if FWW is ready to discuss our M.

Withdrawal can take months, and OM is probably still grieving for being dumped.

Now this does not mean my 'heroism' is gone, just that I see no benefit from being too 'tough love' right now when the kids are LOVING having Mom back. They endured so many weeks of terrible atmosphere, a months' reprieve won't hurt them. I have informed hope, given my fine folks here, that FWW will open up if I give her time and don't pressure her.

My sadness over the last few days is probably due to me having some mental 'time on my hands' for the first time since D-day. AND 'cos of the realizations I made.

FWW and I discussed the A a LOT soon after D day but teh fog was so terrible not much of it made any sense. We determined the outline ENs he met for her, that conmpanionship, not sex was the motivator and that she actively pursued and EA with him over the previous year before sex with OM took place. I deconstructed my contribution to those ENs not being met and apologised fo rit. AND fixed 'em in plan A.

What's outstanding is FWW trying to find out what ENs I need meeting and lifting a single finger to do anything that costs her something to support me or our recovery.

SO we HAVE had discussions, but some more are needed. Not mechanical stuff, I know enough already, but emotional stuff.

2x4 taken CJ, but I hope I am still a knight in shining armour, but me lance has gone a bit limp <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hard times. I think I need to do a Harley/Tupy MV course on my own ( FWW will not 'air our bsuiness with strangers') 'cos I need some template to follow for recovery.

Right now our M is on course for a resumption of 'not too annoyed' mediocrity. I deserve better than that.

Having said all that, I still adore the girl. I hope and pray we repair our lives together, but I can't do that alone and constantly drive FWW into a sulk by pressing is pointless so soon into NC IMO.

Great, sage 2x4, I will keep, stufy and treasure, thanks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Update -had lunch with FWW today. Pleasant if unremarkable. Talking about getting DD a school-worthy swimming costume etc. I was waiting for an opportunity to talk R. I proposed a toast to the miracle that we are sat here as friends and lovers so soon after the trauma we have been through. She changed the subject with humour fast.
I tried again. She changed the topic with Elvis this time ! I asked why she couldn't discuss this stuff and she said "I'm not a serious person".

In the car going home she mentioned our family diary and I said (almost snapped) "Whats this referee course that found its way onto the calendar this morning for the 24th?". It had built up when I saw the new entry yesterday.

FWW was effusive, "its always been there, (it hadn't) and was nothing to be worried about". She sulked that I was a little curt. I pressed home - " You know that refereeing is a bad trigger to me and a risk of contact with OM, yet you still prioritise this hobby over our marriage. Can you see how sad that makes me? You must forgive my snapping occasionally."

" You spoiled a lovely lunch" she said, sulking.
Nothing to lose I pressed home.

"I wonder if you really know how much you HAVE hurt me and continue hurting me. You told me you do not regret the affair, only the fallout from it, you keep his love letters safe, you persist in the hobby activity that risks contact yet you say you love me, want to be with me and want to work on our Marriage ? Can you see why I am confused and hurt?".

She replied "I might have changed my mind about all that. The A wasn't worth the hassle, no...I didn't mean that...I meant..well I don't know what you want me to say !".

" The truth" I said " it can't hurt me more than the lies have".

" You don't know I still have the loveletters"

" do you? "

no reply... ( I am certain she has them).

I said then :

" I can tell you are very uncomfortable discussing this now. Please know that while I am glad we are together and on friendly terms so soon after D-day, your actions have almost killed me. The fact that you had an affair means perhaps that its no big deal to you to break out M vows but you have stolen from me my faith, my love, my trust , my hope, almost my life. All I have left is a mysterious consuming love for you that God alone must have given me.

Look at what I have done for us. For YOU. I love you but I need you, when you are able , to work with me on the things you find uncomfortable today so that I can heal. The only one who can dry my eyes, is YOU who made me cry.
I love you. I pray we can rebuild our M but you must start to empathise with me and speak to me when you are able to."
She said, after thought : " I know what I did to you. I can't talk it about it now. But I know what I did to you".

She has been withdrawn and sulky with me ever since.I can live with that. I was expecting it. she punishes me that way for reminding her of her A. When I have EVER reminded her of her selfishness (FWW has always been quite self-centered). Its a huge issue for her to deal with if we are to recover a functional marriage. FWW has always had difficulty admitting and resolving personal faults. I have avoided conflict in that space all these years. One reason the A happened I guess.

Following up from today : I have to work with what she said, work out what it really means.

Its clear she is hurting more that I thought and that she is changing, slowly in her attitude to the Affair. Also that she is far more congniscent of the hurt she has delivered unto me than I thought. But if its gonna take a session like today to get each new byte of information from her, it will be like pulling teeth. * sigh *

I hope I didn't push to hard today but I needed to say AND HEAR that stuff. I didn't LB.

Hero stuff again, huh CJ ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> well, I get the silent treatment again now for however long but at least I said what I need from her, how I feel and set the scene that she muct help me recover when she is stroimg enough.

Now I am certain that she knows my needs and agenda here I can relax a little and just love her, and enjoy her while she is here. I may not have her for ever or for long even, but I must live in the day, and be the best H I can be.

Because I do love her. SO very much. I hope she believes that. I can't be effusive in 'ILYs' while she has his letters saved away. I think that will be the 'shibboleth' - when she volunteers to dispose of them herself.

I'm of to polish my armour <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

That was hard CJ. Its hrd to hurt FWW when It seems she is getting happier. I can give her time now.

Thanks CJ for reminding me that faint heart never won fair maid. {{{CJ}}}

<small>[ October 18, 2004, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

Well, I'm off to the salt mine, but before I go I wanted to let you know that I think you did pretty good! I do realize that the A is a topic that the WS does not want to remember or bring up, but to pretend it didn't happen is just not any more realistic than "s/he's my soulmate." See? They're still dealing in fantasy.

I would say that it was a somewhat positive discussion because you did at least let her know how you hurt, what you need, and set things so that she knows she's going to have to talk about it one day--but that you're willing to wait a bit. I'd say this was some considerable TRANSPARENCY on your part (you let her see inside of you), and that was a good thing!

I suggest two things. One, it is not reasonable to be punished for speaking your mind and true feelings if you were respectful. If you can review what you said and you honestly believe you were respectful, then silent treatment is just harming intimacy: "you hurt me so I'm going to punish you". OTOH, if you review what you said and you feel that some of it wasn't said respectfully, apologize. Frankly, I think it is conceivable that you held it in and let it stew long enough that it may have come out a bit gruffly...so consider that and once again model that chivalrous behavior if you feel like you crossed that line of respect.

Two, this might be an excellent time/opportunity to introduce the POJA topic. You don't need to use that word "POJA" but see if you can't communicate the concept: "Honey, as you can tell, one day I do need to talk about the A; however, in our new M I would like to propose that we each consider each other IN EVERY DECISION and that we don't either one of us do anything until the other is enthusiastically on board. That means, if you are not ready to discuss it right now, I will not force you or make you talk about it. I will continue to respectfully request from time to time, and I will let you know what delaying is doing to me. But I will also wait until we are a team and ready to do this together. And I would ask for the same from you. Before you decide things or schedule things, consider me and request and then we can work it out until we are BOTH enthusiasic about it. This refereeing for example--if you had told me 'Here's what I want to do and OM won't be there and I'd like you to be there with me, so I'm respectfully requesting that WE go' then I would have felt like you DID care about me and you DID think of how to maintain NC and not be tempted again. See, even if I was uncomfortable, I could tell you what I would be comfortable with and I'd feel like I was valuable to you. So what do you say? Can we do this Agreement idea??"

I'll chat later--off to the salt mine I go!


CJ

CJ, the only bit I snapped out was the 'diary entry' bit. The rest was in my best 'plan A' respectful, non-presumptive language. I was proud of it! I apologised for my initial snap right away.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know what I did to you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hate this line. Totally, utterly loathe and detest it. No clue. They may have a glimmer, a teeniest, tiniest inkling of the pain....but they have not a clue in the world the depths of pain we've been thru. The line is bu11shyt and I'm calling your wife on it. I called Nio on it, too. You can't hand me a line like that...hand it to me on a silver platter, tell me it's chocolate and expect me to believe it's nothing but manure.

The line itself is offensive. It's a cop-out blurted from her lips to stave off any uncomfortable questions/discussions. She may even halfway believe it....but it still doesn't make it true...and it never will. Only when she dies and is judged will she truly KNOW...same as Nio, same as any ws....they will only truly know the pain they have caused EVERYONE at one time...till then, they've no right to utter those words.

Sorry Bob. You rock...but that line sucked [censored] thru a straw.

- Kimmy

Kimmy I agree with you. But just having her THINK she is looking in the abyss is better than I AHVE had to date.

I think that WS think we overplay it " mewl and puke" as Shakespeare would have it.

After all the vows they violated were no big deal to them or they wouldn't have violated them.

Not sure I'll ever know what a WS feels and they sure as heck won't ever know how we feel.

What goes on off camera behind the scenes is just as important as the on camera business. YES! By all means if you hadn't expressed your concerns, why not? Bob I've went too far on occassion and had to learn to reel mysef in, but then again I was always the type given to speeches at one time this was just a FM trait now its a LB if done with passion,go figure. I've put my foot in it more than which is helpful to the point I've cut down on my drinking.

FM + Alcohol + FWW + The Subject of R's or the A's = FM TIRADE.

So I had to subtract the alcohol to better control
my soap box routines, not that I regret them...they have been useful to my own well-being, I'm not so sure they've helped my M though <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> A week or so ago I had to put my foot firmly down on some issues regarding my W's health and the well-being. I pulled the H card, the Servant Leader card, the biblical card and every other card I could locate and yes my W was receptive...for a moment her eyes looked almost identical to the old Mrs. Matters, full of love, admiration and in need of my loving steadfast, kindly meaninful firmness.

Good job Bob, you expressed yourself well though I'm sure you could have went further into detail regarding your wounds, I supposed it's best to keep it brief. NOPE! The WS doesn't benefit by living in any fantasy whether in pretend R's with OP or when they decide to meander back to their M.

Niosgirl,
I have been both the WS and BS and I agree, I am uniquely qualified to make the comment that I understand what either S is going through still each sitch is different and full of its own personal twists....generally I can relate to much. The WS is somewhat oblivious to the wreckage and carnage that lay in their rear view mirror, its only after the indictment and the exhibits are brought before them that they truly understand the damage they've caused. HECK, for somethings do not resonate until after the sentenceing or until the WS becomes a victim in some form for acute betrayal. WORDS! Most people use them without much discern, *understand? NOPE, not even close, Regret is probably a more accurate word Bob's W should have chosen, maybe even DETEST, THE FWS detests the pain they've caused the BS and their M, Family, Children, Convictions, SELF...

Stay the course....sanity, recovery or sanity anyways! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

FM I wanted only to make sure my wellbeing was somewhere in FWWs head. Without my wellbeing there is no recovery.

I think I did that well. I must live with the fallout now. She will be mean as a hooked shark for ages now. Thats how she is. * sigh *

Bob I may be way off here so forgive me if I am but be very careful that when you talk to your W that it doesn't come out like you are throwing her affair right back in her face. I say this because even though you may beleive that you are not, your W may think differently. It might be a good idea the next time you talk to her to convey to her that the purpose of talking about her affair is not an attempt of throwing it back in her face but as your way of asking for her help in helping you to recover from it. If she realizes this, then her perception may change and she will be more willing to do the things you want from her in order to heal.

TMCM I guess FWW would be happiest if I never mentioned the A again,nor acted any differently than a committed, loving husband. Trouble is I would last around a year before I shot myself or drove off lovers lane again.

Saying nothing was killing me. Being too angry would kill FWW.
I chose a 'plan A' way of explaining my needs to FWW and tried to get her feelings out of her the same way. I was partially successful and I feel much better. I guess FWW doesn't feel as good as she would have if I had run her another candle bath and SFed her hiney off in the kitchen again but I have to start taking ME seriously in this. I feel better for today's exchange, and FWW didn;t appear suicidal as a result so I guess thats a thumb sideways at least.

TMCM theres a fine line between patience and cowardice IMO. I was veering into cowardice. Today I reset FWWs agenda to include my healing as well as hers. NOW I can be passive and supportive while that yeast works through the dough somewhat.


Incidentally, she thinks I should make up to her for my 'diary' faux pas !

I smiled and gave her a kiss.

[chest beating silverback warning]

Incidentally re 'thowing her A in her face' I utterly reserve the right to do that if I choose. I have every right to. I just choose not to.
Sorry if thats not PC. I haven';t felt very PC since d-day.


Yes it would set back recovery but HECK it would make me feel good for a day ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

[/chest beating silverback warning]

<small>[ October 18, 2004, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

Bob said

" I can tell you are very uncomfortable discussing this now. Please know that while I am glad we are together and on friendly terms so soon after D-day, your actions have almost killed me. The fact that you had an affair means perhaps that its no big deal to you to break out M vows but you have stolen from me my faith, my love, my trust , my hope, almost my life. All I have left is a mysterious consuming love for you that God alone must have given me.

Look at what I have done for us. For YOU. I love you but I need you, when you are able, to work with me on the things you find uncomfortable today so that I can heal. The only one who can dry my eyes, is YOU who made me cry.
I love you. I pray we can rebuild our M but you must start to empathise with me and speak to me when you are able to."
She said, after thought : " I know what I did to you. I can't talk it about it now. But I know what I did to you".

Dude, I understand that what she did was wrong but you seem to be heaping it on her a bit here. When I read this I get:
Bob = very good

Bob's wife = very bad


She has been withdrawn and sulky with me ever since.I can live with that.

What the hell you expect Bob? Oh.....you were expecting it.


she punishes me that way for reminding her of her A. When I have EVER reminded her of her selfishness (FWW has always been quite self-centered).

She might be withdrawing because she doesn't want to hear how much she had stolen from you.

You say all you have left is an all-consuming love for her....Do you think she is feeling that love?

I'm not trying to bag on you, just an outsiders view of a possible interpretation.

just my $.02

God bless

Doug

Hi Bob,

I’m a FWW, and I hope you don’t mind my posting to you. I haven’t read all of your threads, but just wanted to offer what I hope will be a little encouragement.

People have undoubtedly been telling you to be patient, and I know it’s hard to the point of unbearable, but one month of withdrawal for a WS is just a drop in the bucket. I think Dr. Harley writes that it takes at least 3 months to break the addiction. From personal experience, I know that it can take even way longer and a lot of soul searching for a WW to be able/ready/willing to see reality 100%. That includes being able to look at the pain we’ve caused.

It sucks, it bites, it’s unbalanced, and it isn’t fair, but patience is still the key. We talk here a lot about the roller coaster ride we’re on, but I was just thinking that there is also a major tightrope walking act that we have to perform during recovery (both sides trying to figure out what the next step should be).

I wish your W would destroy the letters, because I believe all parts of the addiction should be unavailable (like pouring out all of an alcoholic’s booze), but I’m over 2 years past d-day, so I’ve had time to be de-fogged, and hindsight is always 20- 20. She won’t be willing yet to accept that she should get rid of them. I feel confident in saying, though, that if NC is maintained, the more time that passes, the less those letters will mean to her.

I guess there is no chance that she would post here?

You actually do still have a dragon to slay. There is still a long, bumpy road ahead that is often hard to keep traveling. Take time out to refresh yourself along the way. I’m sure people have posted to you that you need to be doing nice things for yourself (enjoying a favorite hobby, listening to favorite music – self-soothing things), and fill whatever needs for yourself that you can (in legal, nonaddictive ways, of course). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Take deep breaths. Use all the resources you can find for recovery. Hang in there.

God bless,

Rose55

Bob = very good

Bob's wife = very bad


Nah, mate. What I was indicating is :

Bob kept his trousers up while married
FWW dropped hers when she felt like it


Thats how it is. Ain't no moral equivalence there. Her bad. Sorry Doug. Thats facts. I am not PC.

I dunno if she feels my love for her. She says she does and that she doesn;t deserve it.

Rose, always welcome dear heart !

Yes I know its early days. I know it is. Just venting really....

Bob,

It is amazing how similar FWW are. I have a little different take on what this means.
"I'm not a serious person".

My W spoke these exact same words to me in almost the same situation. Its escaping conflict and escaping having to look at what they did. They just want it to go away like it never happened. If you don`t talk or think about it they believe it will.

"I might have changed my mind about all that. The A wasn't worth the hassle,

This is the truth. An A is addiction and like any addiction the person addicted has to come to grips with what they are doing or did was wrong. That`s a hard thing to do after a long time of convincing themself it was the right thing to do.
You can see her struggling with that in this statement.

no...I didn't mean that...I meant..well I don't know what you want me to say !".

Here she realised the first part might have been hurtful to you and quicky retracted it. My W also said this same thing. " I don`t know what you want me to say" It was latter replaced by "I`ll say anything you want, just tell me what it is."

" I know what I did to you. I can't talk it about it now. But I know what I did to you".

Believe or not she probably does have a slight understanding of what she did to you. If she didn`t before she sure does now.

She has been withdrawn and sulky with me ever since.I can live with that. I was expecting it. she punishes me that way for reminding her of her A.

Bob, have you considered this behavor isn`t to punish you. Maybe when you bring up the A it forces her to take a long deep look at herself and she hates what she sees? Knows she can never repair the damage she has done. So her solution to this is to pretend it never happened? Withdraws until she thinks its safe from anymore A talk?

RG

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Incidentally re 'thowing her A in her face' I utterly reserve the right to do that if I choose. I have every right to. I just choose not to. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess we all have the right to do or say whatever we want to each other, either way. I don't think you have every right to throw it in her face. I think you might WANT to, you probably HAVE, but a RIGHT? The choices she made are her very own to make. She has free will.

Because she chose a behavior that you don't think you ever would, you somehow think you are better, or above, her. Who are you to judge her decisions??? That's really what it comes down to. I can't imagine she does not feel and hear that judgement from you. And that, Bob, will not speed up your recovery, her defogging, or the rebuilding of your M.

Do you want to be right, or do you want to be married, Bob? As 2oak says, "it ain't rocket surgery!"

Spidey

Bob, there is no good way to say this so I'll just blurt it out.

So what if you feel like her second choice, consolation prize or otherwise leftover? So what? You love her. She is YOUR first choice! My beautiful W is MY first choice. That makes all the difference in the world to me.

Some rambling observations:

In your other thread you say the 20-something gal at the gym hadn't broken your heart yet. Yet is the operative word here, flirting with a M man! She would have hurt you just as bad eventually, you know. The grass isn't greener elsewhere. It sounds stupid to say, better the devil you know. But that's definitely the case here.

I don't think you two have really started recovery, rebuilding, making anew (whatever you want to call it) yet. You wrote it yourself, FWW is still in withdrawal. She can't join you yet. She is not able or willing to do anything but hunker down and nurse her self-inflicted wounds. You can expect you will get growled at and maybe bitten if you were to reach towards any cornered wounded animal...

Meanwhile, you have entered the resentment stage. She can feel this, you know. And it makes her withdraw even more. You must give her a safe place to talk. No judgments and no emotional outbursts. There is no hurry once the A is over. It will eventually come out the way you want it to. Or, if not, you can then decide later what you need to do.

Imagine you and W on opposite banks of a narrow but deep canyon. Her side is lower than yours. You have spent months lobbing deposits into her LBank with the help of gravity. But, she sees you far above her on the other side and feels she can't even try to reciprocate. You are way too high abover her. So you have to urge her to walk along the edge with you until you reach a level spot. Then you can both build a bridge. That is recovery.

You know, there is no greater or lesser hurt for you or any BS here. She may indeed have wanted to run off with OM. That is devastating to contemplate. But, she could also have been like my W who says neither of them planned to leave their M's. They both realized it would never work outside the A. They both just intended to have something on the side forever. I apparently was not even worth the effort it would take for her to leave me. Not even after DDay 1. Which goat would you prefer to be?

Two relevant observations - I did a little research on this site and came up with the following general impression:

There seems to be two periods of crisis to avoid quite a ways out after DDay. The first is at about two years and the second at about five years. (Give or take a year each).

If the BS's anger is not addressed it builds until resentment and then apathy takes over. You can read about this in the Torn Asunder story about the WH who brought his BW to see Carder two years after DDay – she was having a breakdown because she forgave him too quickly and had not let her H know how angry she was. She internalized it to the point it affected her sanity. I notice this two-year apathy in a lot of BS threads here, too.

Somewhere around five years out the M seems to often fall apart if the what and why of the A is not adequately addressed from the BS standpoint. I recall a number of threads from FWS's (especially FWW’s) suddenly wanting know why their S is withdrawing from the M at around five years. The common thread (in the threads) was that they had refused to talk about their A in depth. Yeah, they all said they were sorry for hurting their S. But they never obviously repented out loud of the A itself. They never gave their S any real salve for their scorched identity. The M became a hollow shell. The BS is dealing with more than apathy by this time. It is a real depression and a feeling of being trapped and useless.

Neither you nor I need this additional waste of our precious time. So much time and effort has been expended already let’s not waste any more. Look ahead and pick out the path you want to take. More hard work and difficult choices are required, including having to help your W do the uncomfortable by looking inside herself for some real answers. Or, you make an assessment she cannot, or will not, ever be able to do this and make your own choices as soon as is reasonable. But you have to talk to her about it first, many times. Don't judge her in abstentia.

In my case, W is actively participating in IC, MC, spiritual renewal, looking for a new career and has answered to the best of her ability most of my questions so far. Her A lasted so long with such an obvious dirt-bag of a predator that I still have a lot of questions about her morals, ethics and even her sanity. But right now we are in a hiatus at her request. She needed a time out while she does some additional self-dissection, which is difficult and painful, you can't use anesthetic when dissecting yourself. I understand. She is overwhelmed at times.

W started participating in recovery within weeks in our case. But it didn't become, how should I say it, more than a tentative toe in the water until about four months after DDay. That is when the lies finally stopped, she fully engaged in my recovery requirements (participating in IC,
MC, RCIA, Retrouvaille, NC letter.) And, most importantly, after I had finally learned to listen to her without judgments and emotional retaliation. Oh, and lets not forget, that is when dirt-bag's W found out and dumped my W. Fed my W to the wolves, actually.

It does not sound like you ever were, but your wife appears to have been living a married singles lifestyle prior to her A. Very selfish. You might want to read up on this phenomenon. That is what my W was doing. Her A started so long ago it's difficult to recall the signs now, but she admits it.

BTW, how are your kids doing? What do they know of all this crap? Our DS has his own resentment and pain he is dealing with. It is heart breaking to watch a 12 year old afraid to love his mother and at the same time see her trying to show him her love but often getting a cold shoulder. So we have him in IC too. (I still think I should send the bills to OMM.)

T

<small>[ October 19, 2004, 01:00 AM: Message edited by: Thos ]</small>

* SS Do you want to be right, or do you want to be married
For the first time since I was 22 I don't know the answer to that question today. I really don't, SS.

I have deconstructed my feelings and intents these past few days and I cannot shake my deep love for her but NOR can I persist forever in an unjust relationship.Not important to many peopel I understand, but it is to me. As I have said often it is early days and I will do nothing rash. This is just a phase - a dip in the rollercoaster ride that is predicted by the MB method. I HAVE learned not to be quite so forthright on here though ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

* RG that your FWW behaved so similarly is a great consolation to me. It helped during early Plan A to read that other FWS and WS behaved exacty teh same as my FWW and I could at least have an informed hope of their recovery. Thanks for that !

* thos, sage words again. So what if you feel like her second choice, consolation prize or otherwise leftover? So what? You love her. She is YOUR first choice! My beautiful W is MY first choice. That makes all the difference in the world to me.
[/b]
Soz Thos, I disagree. I see only pain if I spend my life trying to make myself FWWs number 1, as he is disappointed by my every effort. I deserve better. So does she, to be honest. However in time I hope she may learn to love me again. There have been periods since NC when she has said so and behaved so. I have hope !

[b]My kids are doing much better. I hesitate to say "fine" because who knows teh damage we caused them, but right now they seem to be thriving in our newly family-centered world, doing stuff as a family rather than different stuff with each parent and passing teh baton of babysitting.

Both kids still resent FWW doing karate quite so often, and that comes oiut in conversation from time to time, but, hey, they have every right to.

* All, s I have said several times I KNOW my feelings are par for the course so early in recovery. FNCJ was right - I had choked reendt but I think I put that right yesterday. I am content now that FWW knows we need to talk about hurtful stuff sometime and she should let me know what thats ok. She knows that I was evicerated by her and my 'plan A' coping veneer is just that.
She knows she hurts me every day that love ltter stuff is in my house. She knows a LOT more than she did yesterday morning. So do I.

I can now, in good faith, gird up for a decently long period of love and support of FWW. I believe she was so 'in love' with OM that she will tak elonger than some to withdraw to the extent that she can properly work on recovery.

Unless triggered I have no intention of doing anything other than loving and supporting her util we return from our Christmas vacation. Two weeks in the sun together should give us the opportunity to assess each others state of mind and heart.

I love her. No doubt. Right now I'm not sure if thats enough BUT I know its just a phase that every BS goes through.

Thanks all.

<small>[ October 19, 2004, 02:11 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

Bob...What's up, mate?

Wow! Not sure if I've gotten used to this calmer Bob yet! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Wanted to make just one observation--and it's just that--remember--I was on the "dark" side:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I love her. No doubt. Right now I'm not sure if thats enough BUT I know its just a phase that every BS goes through.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Someone pointed out to me, in the early part of my own recovery and when brown and I were having MUCH difficulty with our sons, that you can actually use the MB principles with your own child as well. (I'll let you know--in about 15 years, how we did!)

The reason why I bring this up is, my very wise aunt and subsequently brown--without even hearing each other at the time--each said: "Your my child: I love you and always will, but I don't like you right now!"

Much like your W? Your F-WW. I suppose it's tough still seeing her actions--or inactions, in your case. You don't have to like it; express it even. It's just HOW you do it. Reverse reverse babble, I guess.

I don't really know where I'm going with this, mate. I guess I needed to post to you and let you know, you have so many admirers who continue to pull for you, and FM, etc. Just hang in there. OK?

Hi LINY !

I don't deserve admirers. I'm a bloke doing the best I can. My sitch isn't even bad compared to many or most on here. However a broken heart is binary event IMO. Can't be a bit broken depending on the severity of the betrayal <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I'm OK though. Been sad and reflective these coupla days, but I know its part of the rollercoaster ride. I'll be OK whatever happens, and I still hope that its with my FWW.

I have noticed something this morning though which has disturbed me a little.

I CHOOSE to recall the infidelity and it makes me sad and indifferent to FWW. It doesn't pop into my head often like 2 months ago.

Why do I do that stupid thing?

I think its because my heart is involuntarily beginning to settle in love with FWW all over again and my pride screams "NOT YET !".

I think I am beginning to forgive her in my heart unconsciously and my conscious mind doesn't like it. It almost cheapens my suffering to forgive an TRULY recommit to my FWW without remorse so she could hurt me again.

I ACHE to release myself to love her and commit to her fully once more but it really isn't wise yet. Is it ?

Now THATS a post that makes me vulnerable !

Thanks LINY. All blessings mate.

<small>[ October 19, 2004, 04:24 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>