These are just random musings from the perspective of a FWS trying to rebuild his M with his BS/WW when she is currently unwilling and is in a R with OM.

I would be interested in input from FWS's who have tried a reverse Plan A, as well as from BS's in general...

</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plan A says "be calm, patient, loving, but firm with your S while they sort things out"</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can see where this works with a BS on a WS, when the BS is "innocent" of any wrongdoing</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Many of the FWS's I see here, including myself, have been advised to do a modified Plan A to get their BS back</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
So...I can Plan A all I want to help my WW see that she should work on our M...
But I'm at a serious disadvantage in that she is devastated by my own A's. She has to crawl out of THAT hole before she will entertain the idea of losing OM and taking me back.

Does that psychology work the same on a BS who is also a WS?

It seems to me that a BS wants to see these things from a WS, so the BS is confident that it is OK to take them back:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Remorse</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Humility</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Repentance</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Real change</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Commitment</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fear of loss</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Refocus on the M, eliminate the A</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Empathy with their pain</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
It's this last one that gets me, and is the main inspiration for writing this post.

My BS constantly says "I wish you realized how badly you hurt me" and "you don't know the pain you have caused me" and "I wish you could hurt as bad as me."

I think a desire to see ME hurting drives many of her discussions with me re:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I'm in love with OM"</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"you'll never change, we'll never work this out</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"you were a philandering pig and part of me hates you"</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you were never into this M, you gave OW what you should have given me</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
etc.etc.etc.

Now - this could be some fog talk too. She has an OM, and part of her is trying desperately to forget about me and go to him. But her love for me and desire to see me grow & change so she can come back is stronger, in reality, which is precisely why she fights so hard against it.

She probably would NOT be this hurtful and spiteful if she didn't have him. Maybe.

And if she didn't have him, I might not need any version of Plan A for myself.

BUT...here is the crux of my question:

Doesn't a BS want to see a WS who is devastated by what they have done, a sobbing wreck of a person, someone so repentant that they can't imagine life without their S?

Here is my perceived Catch 22:

My BS side has been told to do a regular Plan A and be strong, calm, loving, and firm...as a way to negotiate the end of her A.

But then my FWH side thinks that I should be expressing more remorse, more pain, as a way to indicate how sincerely I want my M to work out and how remorseful I am over my behavior.

Because, believe me, I AM devastated. But I'm trying not to show her that side of me because I'm also doing Plan A!

See my predicament?

Just wondering if my calm and detached demeanor might be making things WORSE and not better, that she may be thinking that I never really WAS into the M because I seem to be getting over the possible end of it fairly well.
In some ways, things HAVE actually gotten WORSE since I started Plan A. She is much less "attached" to me and seems to be running towards him more and more.

Ideas?

<small>[ October 19, 2004, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

bump....looking for input!

Hi VnusMars,

I lifted these quotes right off of this MB site in the section about plan A and B:

"...negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands."

"On the other hand, if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness..."

"Since one of these causes is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended."

"A plan to avoid being away from each other overnight and making each other favorite leisure-time companions goes a long way toward creating a passionate marriage that is essentially affair-proof."

"...plan A leaves the wayward spouse with the impression that returning home is an attractive choice"

"...be sure that the last thing your spouse remembers about you is the care and thoughtfulness you offered in plan A."

When I think about a “reverse” plan A (from the WS point of view), I think:

Negotiate with S without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands.

Approach the S with respect and thoughtfulness.

Fill EN’s.

Avoid being away from each other overnight.

Make each other favorite leisure-time companions.

Give your S the impression that being at home is an attractive choice.

Treat your S with care and thoughtfulness.


To quote you: "My BS constantly says "I wish you realized how badly you hurt me" and "you don't know the pain you have caused me" and "I wish you could hurt as bad as me."

It seems to me that you do know how badly an A hurts (from both sides of the picture). It sounds like her A was to punish you? That was her choice, and a bad idea for obvious reasons. However, she must work through these feelings (about wanting you to suffer) by herself. All you can do is be the best you that you can grow to be.

Quoting you again: "Doesn't a BS want to see a WS who is devastated by what they have done, a sobbing wreck of a person, someone so repentant that they can't imagine life without their S?"

"But I'm trying not to show her that side of me because I'm also doing Plan A!"

I think you can be "strong, calm, loving, and firm," and still show "remorse, more pain, as a way to indicate how sincerely I want my M to work out" with your actions and words without having to be a "sobbing wreck of a person." You can do this by saying you're sorry in a sincere manner when the subject comes up, and by beginning to behave always only in a respectful and loving manner.

I would say that's my 2 cents' worth, but I think it's worth at least 4 cents! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Have you asked your W what she wants you to do to show your remorse?

God bless,

Rose55

<small>[ October 18, 2004, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: Rose55 ]</small>

vnusmars...

Remorse
Humility
Repentance
Real change
Commitment
Fear of loss
Refocus on the M, eliminate the A
Empathy with their pain


Ok..in some ways are these not a lot of the innards of plan a...

even the remorse on the part of a BS who can and see actions that contributed to the ripe environment of an affair...
(while there still remains a percentage that nothing did or didn't do contributed to some WS actions....)..
politically correct public service announcement...that I really do believe in <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

My BS constantly says "I wish you realized how badly you hurt me" and "you don't know the pain you have caused me" and "I wish you could hurt as bad as me."

what do you say to this ....
what do you say...

what I think you should say....and even more importantly than say...is what I think you should have learned and felt...

to your wife you should be at the point of speaking of her pain...

her pain in reference to being betrayed...
AND
her pain in reference to her... currently being a WS and the huge toll of being a WS takes to the soul...

how DID you feel good about yourself....being so disrespectful towards your wife during an affair...

how DID you sleep at night...those few moments where we hang in space...not quite awake...not quite asleep where are souls reach out to the universe...and we feel the weight of our actions...how DID that feel to YOU???

how did you look at your OP and tell them what they wanted to hear...knowing that you couldn't or wouldn't follow through with what words you spoke....

how did you feel...
YOU feel..
not the outward everything is great person but you venusmars....

where are YOU in processing your actions...
be honest
think before you answer....

then we can go from there.....

ARK

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Rose55:
<strong> To quote you: "My BS constantly says "I wish you realized how badly you hurt me" and "you don't know the pain you have caused me" and "I wish you could hurt as bad as me."

It seems to me that you do know how badly an A hurts (from both sides of the picture). It sounds like her A was to punish you? That was her choice, and a bad idea for obvious reasons. However, she must work through these feelings (about wanting you to suffer) by herself. All you can do is be the best you that you can grow to be.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, it was not a revenge A. It started a few weeks before D-Day. The only reason we even had a D-Day when and how we did was because she was trying to cover HER tracks with OM and discovered cell phone calls to my OW and did some detective work, then confronted me.

That's part of what is making this more difficult, because she started the A for more serious reasons of marital dissatisfaction and falling out of love with me.
However, I have enough info to know that her A is not what she makes it out to be, there isn't as much of an emotional connection there as you would think, as she wants me to believe (and there's little physical connection since he lives 2000 miles away).
This A is NOT a relationship on a strong and stable footing, not by any means.
But I think she wants me to think it is so that I don't get too cocky. It didn't START as revenge, but I believe she's continuing it partly out of revenge (even though she denies that).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Quoting you again: "Doesn't a BS want to see a WS who is devastated by what they have done, a sobbing wreck of a person, someone so repentant that they can't imagine life without their S?"

"But I'm trying not to show her that side of me because I'm also doing Plan A!"

I think you can be "strong, calm, loving, and firm," and still show "remorse, more pain, as a way to indicate how sincerely I want my M to work out" with your actions and words without having to be a "sobbing wreck of a person." You can do this by saying you're sorry in a sincere manner when the subject comes up, and by beginning to behave always only in a respectful and loving manner.

I would say that's my 2 cents' worth, but I think it's worth at least 4 cents! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Have you asked your W what she wants you to do to show your remorse?

God bless,

Rose55 </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, that makes sense.

I guess I had gotten some impression from her that she wishes I was more visibly "destroyed."

Because she is suffering so horribly right now as a result of my A's, and is probably torn up by her own ongoing A (the fact that it's causing more problems than it may be worth), I feel guilty going about my daily life with confidence and some small measure of peace.

I have realigned myself towards healing and fixing the root issues that caused me to cheat to begin with. I go day-by-day confident that as long as I keep up Plan A behavior she WILL come back to me, and if she doesn't, I WILL be OK.

She is still wallowing in pain and destruction, some anger (although it's better now), hypersensitivity, doubt and mistrust (for example...we were IM'ing last night and my 'Net connection died...obviously I went offline suddenly...she actually CALLED me 5 minutes later saying "oh one of your GF's must have called you and you bailed out on me"...yeesh...but I think I scored points and made her feel stupid because I answered the phone right away, so I couldn't have been talking to some OW! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ).

I guess that's why I feel guilty for being more OK than her and was musing that I should be less OK. But as Katie Cotson mentions in her book on www.aftertheaffair.net, I should feel good that I am trying to "lead by example" and help pull her out to a sense of normalcy.

<small>[ October 19, 2004, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

Wait, wait, wait. You think being a remorseful FWS does not fit in with Plan A? Wrong. I believe it fits perfectly into Plan A and is needed in your situation.

You're not supposed to be showing a calm and detached demeanor as if her A does not hurt you. Your dealings with BS/WS should be calm, but you really do need to open up about your feelings about what is going on. You need to find your emotionaly intimacy again and that is how you build your foundation for recovery.

I think most people that come here feel their situation is unique and want to do a modified Plan A. Plan A is hard, very hard. And I believe it is for the partner that wants to rebuild his/her M. Doesn't matter if it's the BS or WS.

It is NOT easy to convince a WS to give up the A and try to rebuild a M. They have nothing to go by except faith in their partner. Most WS' are disillusioned by their Ms and only see their happiness in the OP. Your situation is complicated by the fact that you had an A. You might say she has even more reason not to trust you, but all WS' have to regain their trust in the BS, too. We promised to love and protect them, too, and we failed in our own ways.

Have you talked to Steve Harley? That would be my advice.

No, the BS does not see all those things you listed in order to be willing to work on the M. We are going entirely on hope and faith. I did not see remorse, humility, empathy, or repetance until 3 months after NC. I'm still seeing real change and I'm just hoping for committment. I assume he fears he will lose me. He said he eliminated the A, but how can anyone of us be sure of that? But we try, try to trust that everything the FWS says is true, while keeping our eyes wide open.

It is not easy and it takes time.

But you are totally on the right track. BS/WS desperately wants to believe you can rebuild something better than what you had before, but she will need to see the changes you are going through for awhile.

The most you can hope is that she will try NC for a month or so. Have you suggested this?

Well, seeing a FWS devastated by what they have done does help, it's not a miraculous cure-all. We still have to recover from our own triggers and pain.

Vnus,

I was an unknowing OW to my fiance. He was married when I met him and I didn't find out until 8 months later. He divorced his then wife and I let him move in with me. I then spent the next 2 1/2 years making him pay for the deception. I felt so bad for his exwife, so bad for me, and I was just plain mad. I wanted him to fall on the ground and be humbled, I wanted blood I think. He met somebody else after I kicked him, but pretended to still be working on a relationship with me, dating each other, trying to start over, etc. etc. etc.

I did a NC letter with him telling him I didn't want to see him again but I wished him well in his life. He started writing letters after 5 weeks of no contact with me, and ended his other relationship. I knew he had some kind of a break down because he couldn't go to work and had to go on the A/D's. In the letters he told me that he was afraid that I could never get over his initial deception, and because of my anger he was basically afraid of me. Well he went on A/D's and entered into counseling and I have let go of my anger. And I had to accept the fact that he is who he is and he needs one heck of alot of admiration. Something I didn't know about before. I also had to let go of the lies and deception for his sake and for our relationship. Everybody deserves a chance to change, and so does he. I love him with all my heart, so I will give him that chance and help him through it. We are trying hard to love each other in the way that we both need and deserve, and to let go of the past.

It is possible Vnus, but your WW has to let go of what you have done and face what she has done.
I hope that you do reconcile and learn to treat each other better because I think you are alot like us, and that there is a great love there.

Wish I had some advice but I have only my own story to offer...and I wish I could talk to your WW, I think I know what she is going through.

weaver

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
<strong> Vnus,

I was an unknowing OW to my fiance. He was married when I met him and I didn't find out until 8 months later. He divorced his then wife and I let him move in with me. I then spent the next 2 1/2 years making him pay for the deception. I felt so bad for his exwife, so bad for me, and I was just plain mad. I wanted him to fall on the ground and be humbled, I wanted blood I think. He met somebody else after I kicked him, but pretended to still be working on a relationship with me, dating each other, trying to start over, etc. etc. etc.

I did a NC letter with him telling him I didn't want to see him again but I wished him well in his life. He started writing letters after 5 weeks of no contact with me, and ended his other relationship. I knew he had some kind of a break down because he couldn't go to work and had to go on the A/D's. In the letters he told me that he was afraid that I could never get over his initial deception, and because of my anger he was basically afraid of me. Well he went on A/D's and entered into counseling and I have let go of my anger. And I had to accept the fact that he is who he is and he needs one heck of alot of admiration. Something I didn't know about before. I also had to let go of the lies and deception for his sake and for our relationship. Everybody deserves a chance to change, and so does he. I love him with all my heart, so I will give him that chance and help him through it. We are trying hard to love each other in the way that we both need and deserve, and to let go of the past.

It is possible Vnus, but your WW has to let go of what you have done and face what she has done.
I hope that you do reconcile and learn to treat each other better because I think you are alot like us, and that there is a great love there.

Wish I had some advice but I have only my own story to offer...and I wish I could talk to your WW, I think I know what she is going through.

weaver </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks Weaver, your replies are always very welcome.

I think you're right...I feel the love there, even when she's lambasting me (word for the day!) over the past.
I'm trying to settle into a routine and do my work right now mostly because the biggest issue is this...
IT'S BEEN TOO RECENT.

It's great that I've made changes and am continuing to make them, that I've come to terms with myself and admitted my faults and promised myself never to fall victim to them again, that I've made up my mind that my W is the single most important person on earth to me, and that I want her back.

But.....the poor girl is dealing with relatively fresh memories and pain.
She needs plenty o' time. And I'm gonna give it to her.

I just hope that in the meantime she doesn't succeed in convincing herself she can live without me.

I wish you COULD talk to her too! Maybe someday...I'll just sneak you her email address and you could say "a friend told me about your situation"....
She has a close friend out-of-state that went through a similar situation, and BS/WW read me an email from her verbatim - very supportive, rational, sounded a lot like what you're saying. Hmmm, maybe it's you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
At any rate...I'm very glad that she has someone sensible to listen to.

<small>[ October 19, 2004, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

Last night BS/WW was IM'ing with me, mostly OK conversation, but quite a few mentions of how she's very sad and lonely and is starting to fall back into her depression (she was diagnosed years ago and has been taking Xanax off and on for years).

She has been going to work and functioning (and even taking occasional trips to see OM on the East Coast), and even went through a 5-day self-imposed NC with me (3 of which she was with him).

But I am very very worried about her, and fear that she's going to fall into a deep depression.

She's been reaching out to me some since Sunday night when she returned from seeing OM, saying things that are more loving and hopeful, seeming more distraught over the possibility that I'm moving on and may not want her anymore, etc.

We've done this email thread for the past hour:

BS/WW: are you playing tonight?
ME: yes, I was going to go down to the club and sit in, why?
BS/WW: Just curious...I am so tired...and feel horrible..dont even want to see therapist...don't want to do much of anything.
ME: Poor thing...anything I can do to help?
BS/WW: No VM...nothing...absolutely nothing...Im suffering from such a broken heart that I cant even think or function anymore.
ME: I'm very worried about you....very....
BS/WW: Amazing...Im the one that got the short end of the stick and I feel like I am descending down a dark hole...you are doing your thing, living your life to what seems like a small bit of remorse for everything you have done… Life is very cruel sometimes….. I hope I will be able to see the light of day someday"

How should I respond to her? I did what was recommended and began using some emotional distance with her...and she's taking it the wrong way I think!

She's taking the fact that I'm being emotionally distant as evidence that I'm not remorseful for my sins. That is FAR from the truth, obviously.

I'm being a bit distant because I was smothering her with clingyness before, trying to convince her to take me back, and avoiding working on myself.
I'm being a bit distant because she is with OM and has said she's falling in love (fog talk) and I'm waiting for her to adjust to things and get beyond some of the pain and see the light.


What can I say to her to make her realize this? Should I continue the emotional distance or is it doing more harm than good now??

<small>[ October 19, 2004, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

Now might be a good time for the statement coffeeman laid out for you, in case you don't still have it I went back and copied it for you. One thing Vnus is she needs to find her way back herself. If she is depressed than that is something she needs to address. You can't save her, she needs to end all contact with OM before you can help her. No cake eating!
-------------------------------------------------
From coffeman -

"We BOTH have and STILL ARE doing damage to our marriage. I would like for us BOTH to stop and see if we can salvage it. I will forever and deeply regret my infidelities and their destructive consequences but I WILL eventually move on with or without you. I would like it to be with you but the choice is yours".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And you might try adding the truth about how you didn't realize how much you loved or what your marriage meant to you until you thought you lost her. And you are committed to changing things for both your sakes. Now is a very good time for honesty. Real honesty.

Hi VnusMars,

It's hard for me to understand why your W believes you should be more remorseful and in more pain than she is, when she was having an A at the same time, and is currently continuing her A.

In any case, have you tried telling her what you just told us? That you are withdrawn because she is with OM and says she's falling in love with him, not because you aren't sorry for what you did?

No wonder she's depressed! She is very confused. Be supportive, encourage her to find out what her resources are for psychological, emotional, and spiritual help and to use them. However, I agree with weaver and coffeeman that your W cannot work on your M or an R with you until OM is out of the picture.

God bless,

Rose

Hi VnusMars,

It's hard for me to understand why your W believes you should be more remorseful and in more pain than she is, when she was having an A at the same time, and is currently continuing her A.

In any case, have you tried telling her what you just told us? That you are withdrawn because she is with OM and says she's falling in love with him, not because you aren't sorry for what you did?

No wonder she's depressed! She is very confused. Be supportive, encourage her to find out what her resources are for psychological, emotional, and spiritual help and to use them, but I agree with weaver and coffeeman that your W cannot work on your M or an R with you until OM is out of the picture.

God bless,

Rose

VnusMars...you're getting excellent advice as usual- so I won't add to it. I just wanted to tell you that you and your wife are in my thoughts and prayers.

I think you should tell her the truth.

Tell her that the reason you are doing better is that you realized what you did wrong, that you have done, and are doing everything you possibly can to make it right, and that you have committed to never do anything like that ever again.

Further, tell her that she is still doing what is wrong, and trying to justify it. Tell her that you hope she can find relief by working on the marriage, and trying to do what is right, just as you have done, and are doing.

Tell her "yes, I have been to hell, I lived there for quite some time. I still feel the fire quite often, but I see light at the end of the tunnel, because I know I am doing the right thing NOW."

Explain how liberating it was to admit your mistakes and begin to fix them.

Offer to help her do the same - explain why you want to be with her.

SS

<small>[ October 19, 2004, 10:17 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by still seeking:
Tell her that the reason you are doing better is that you realized what you did wrong, that you have done, and are doing everything you possibly can to make it right, and that you have committed to never do anything like that ever again.

Further, tell her that she is still doing what is wrong, and trying to justify it. Tell her that you hope she can find relief by working on the marriage, and trying to do what is right, just as you have done, and are doing.

Tell her "yes, I have been to hell, I lived there for quite some time. I still feel the fire quite often, but I see light at the end of the tunnel, because I know I am doing the right thing NOW."

Explain how liberating it was to admit your mistakes and begin to fix them.

Offer to help her do the same - explain why you want to be with her.

SS</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is excellent advice. Essentially your WW seems to be of the mindset that everything that happens to her is somebody else's fault. Under that immature mindset it is no wonder she feels powerless and weak. Assuming responsibility for your actions is a very liberating experience and gives hope that change for the better is possible. Until your WW grows up, she will continue to wallow in self pity.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is excellent advice. Essentially your WW seems to be of the mindset that everything that happens to her is somebody else's fault. Under that immature mindset it is no wonder she feels powerless and weak. Assuming responsibility for your actions is a very liberating experience and gives hope that change for the better is possible. Until your WW grows up, she will continue to wallow in self pity. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks TMCM...you are correct.
But...in light of my other post, this all seems like a moot point. I DID lie to her one more time...SS said "enjoy the liberation of admitting your mistakes and correcting them"...but I didn't...despite your advice to be totally honest, I wasn't...and it may have driven that final nail in the coffin for good.

Well the acid test is yet to come and it will be if she goes through with cutting all ties with you and filing for divorce. Until that happens, beleive nothing coming out of her mouth.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
<strong> Well the acid test is yet to come and it will be if she goes through with cutting all ties with you and filing for divorce. Until that happens, beleive nothing coming out of her mouth. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why is it that something really bad happens, so I come here and lay down all sorts of "it's over for real this time" talk, even though I know better, and then someone posts (usually you, TMCM) and says "don't believe it 'til the fat lady sings" and I feel a ton better??

I know what you're saying is true, TMCM. I even said it to myself as she was calling me names and saying she hates me and is going to take me to the cleaners, simply because I HAVE heard it before.

Thanks. I'll try to keep my chin up and my Plan A in effect and my personal vendetta to fix myself intact.
I'm seeing my new IC for the 1st time tomorrow, he's gonna get an EARFUL.