Earlier this weekend while watching a decent movie, Collateral with Tom Cruise and Jamie Fox..a story about a professional killer my W turns to me and says…
“Ignore me”
“huh”
“Ignore me”
*me silent....how am I supposed to do that???
“Just ignore me…ignore me…”
I tried but I couldn’t. I kept catering and pandering automatically. We had a good
Weekend, no LB’s or other derailing, but this whole ignore her issue stuck in my mind
So I decided to do some fishing around on the subject. This is what I’ve come up with:

Am I being a doormat? I read this and started thinking about HOW MY W saw my actions, does she really think I’m some great wise man or some push over who should ignore her, pound his chest for his SF, or better yet just take it, lay down the law, and stop whining about the M???? I’m having mixed feelings about how MY own application of PLAN A may be enabling my W’s delirium. I mean didn’t she come back for reasons of her own? Please remember my W is the one who turned to me and said “IGNORE ME” maybe she’s trying to tell me there’s a lot I’m missing out on by being MR. PLAN A, cooking great meals, paying the bills, behaving all extra sensitive, delving into the bible..I’m even quoting scriptures now…but am I going too far????

Okay here’s some text from an article I read today:

Giving your power to a woman robs you of your fundamental rights as a man. It's time for us to stand up for ourselves and demand what we want in a relationship. After all, it's only fair -- we live in a day and age of equal rights, and equal rights means equal rights, not equal rights when it's convenient for her. Start demanding sex from her when you're in the mood. And why shouldn't she be the one to put the toilet seat up?
Oh sure, she'll rant and rave, and call you a "jerk," and try to blame it all on you. She'll call you "selfish" and "not interested in a relationship." And when that doesn't work, she'll cut off the sex, smugly confident that you won't be able to endure the siege.
But if you stand firm and hold your own, pretty soon she'll realize you're serious. And then things will change. Either she'll bolt (good riddance), or she'll transform herself into the partner you really want -- someone who can give as well as she can take.

My W left and now she’s back but maybe the REAL reasons why she’s back aren’t exactly as genuine as I’ve convinced myself into believing. It’s highly possible I’ve been a doormat since d-day and being a doormat has done nothing but support her fog and manipulative actions. I’ve been considering these points:

She left She’s back but WHY????

If being involved with you was so terrible, then why would she even bother to make an attempt to come back? It's not because she suddenly realized what a great guy you are.
Here are some of the real reasons.
Note that most of these explanations have to do with her not liking the new guy,
rather than realizing that she made a mistake in breaking up with you.
• The new guy turned out to be less than expected.
He didn't have as much money as he advertised, or turned out to be cheap or just as selfish as she is.
All of a sudden, you're looking like a much better prospect.
> The new guy smacks her around or ended being a player...
• The new guy is abusive, overly possessive, or a player.
• The new guy turned out to be even more boring than she thought you were.
• She's less attractive than she thinks she is -- he wasn't willing to pay the high price tag she set on herself.

• She can't manipulate the new guy the way she can manipulate you.

• All the same reasons that she left you are repeating themselves.

• She knows you'll just roll over and take her back.


Any comments, suggestions would be appreciated…do you FWW’s relate to what I’m saying?
Do you think the BH’s can take being the nice guy just a little too far?
Do you BH’s relate and see some logic in my post?
I’m beginning to feel the LION in me awaken….GRRRRRRRRRRRRHHH
Maybe the old FM wasn’t so bad, he definitely never was told to ignore his W!?!?!?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FamilyMatters:
<strong> ...my W turns to me and says…
“Ignore me”
“huh”
“Ignore me”
*me silent....how am I supposed to do that???
“Just ignore me…ignore me…”
I tried but I couldn’t. I kept catering and pandering automatically. We had a good
Weekend, no LB’s or other derailing, but this whole ignore her issue stuck in my mind
So I decided to do some fishing around on the subject. This is what I’ve come up with:

Am I being a doormat? ....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey FM,

There comes a time when the BS just analyzes too much. Your W is babbling again and you need to let her know it.

Next time she babbles like that, tell her you are ignoring her and why does she keep getting in your way? WS' are a funny breed. They try sooo hard to make the BS and family look insane. When they finally are freed from that A bug, maybe they will admit it. Mine did. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Be patient. When my xws used to babble, I'd tell him he is babbling and I can't understand it. Then I'd walk away and let him stew in his own babble.

L.

Right on Orchid.

While trying to think of just the right thing to say to FM, I read your answer and laughed out loud. What is there left to say, you done stole the thunder! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Right on sister!

There you go FM - no one could have cut right to the chase and answered your question, which really had no answer except Orchid...and that is the answer!!!!

Babble on!

Family Matters,

Do you feel better about the man you are right now? Is the man that is cooking meals, delving into the Bible, paying the bills and being sensitive happier with WHO is now than before?

I think that's more important than anything.

Ignore her?

My guess is that is something that contributed to the problem in the first place. Maybe that place and that man is more familiar and therefore more comfortable. Just an idea.

This is coming from a BS, but I can tell you in the last few days I have seriously thought about the doormat issue due to some posts here. I've questioned my own motivations and how I should act.

There is NOTHING wimpy or doormatish in working through an A!! NOTHING. You could grab the anger, run the other way with righteous indignation, jump up and down and never look back. Plenty of people do.

You are looking at yourself, transforming the man you are, unconditionally loving you spouse and trying to gently guide them back to a safe place.

You are not a wimp. Nor a door mat.

But, in the end, are you happy with who YOU are.

Thanks folks...
I really needed to get some opinions..in my mind if my W needs me to ignore her or treat her rudely for her to be interested then screw this R. I thought seriously all the way home since posting this thread and I have no intentions of playing any games with my M. I always paid the bills and I've made changes pre D day as far as being very domestic, decorating, cooking, cleaning, etc..Hey I even cruise websites on how to make my pots and pans sparkle...btw: Baking Soda is the BOMB! In fact I've grown in man areas, I feel that I'm becoming more and more the man that I want to be. I think my W enjoyed trying to keep OM's attention, I mean he was only 21 when they started their A. OM probably ignored her to play his video games or something <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I'm better now, I like my newfound post d-day changes complete with more patience, giving up some of my vices and delving further into my R with my creator. I guess there is a happy medium somewhere between New FM and Old FM but all in all I like the new FM much better, besides the old FM was the guy who had an A 10 years ago, the new FM is man enough to forgive his W for her A, better himself and lead with humility, strength and compassion...and not to mention wise enough not to repeat the cycle of infidelity which was now swinging back towards my turn <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I guess my W would rather I play games with her instead of love her with all my heart and be meaningful...or maybe it's just the fog talking and after her spending almost 4 years in a PA then an EA where lies, manipulation and games were the order of the day, dealing with life in the reality seem a tad stuffy and cumbersome, maybe even downright boring.

I don't see myself as a pushover, I'm quite masculine and all that good stuff, but over the last 4 years I have been redefining what being a man is. NOTE: I've grown in many errors since our separation 5 or so years ago, my W on the other hand hasn't improved in many areas at least not evident areas, tangible things, infact her A and lack of committment to her children, career, religion makes me feel while I was working on me she was busy chasing dreams of OM thus blocking her blessings. Sometimes my W seems insecure: I keep a cleaner more efficient home, I am a more celebrated cook, I financial can and do bring in more bucks and I lead in the rearing of the children as well, but I want her as a partner not a competitior, I wonder if me doing so much hinders her? I think she could step it up in the areas that make us a good team, that's not too much to ask is it??

I know one thing:
If a spiritual man, with convictions, who takes responsibility for his children, his wife, financially,emotionally and otherwise is too straightlaced for her so be it. I like me more and more and I think my creator does as well.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ October 18, 2004, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: FamilyMatters ]</small>

I wonder if me doing so much hinders her? I think she could step it up in the areas that make us a good team, that's not too much to ask is it??

You are probably hitting it right on the head here FM, but what can you do? Become less than what you are so she can step up to bat? How in the world do you do that?

I went with a guy in my early twenties who could cook, garden, sail, was more responsible etc, etc, etc., except in one area - heart, he was a cold SOB and I was and still am very warm with a great big heart. I resented the hell out of him, in fact I don't think I could stand him because he excelled at everything I did not. It was like looking in the mirror every day and seeing what I was not. I did nothing but party and lay on the couch, until I finally broke up with him. Then I became all the things he was, and more (except not a very good house cleaner still <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

I don't know where I am going with this, except I think that maybe you are onto something with you being able to do all those things and her not doing anything. You are an incredible man and this is a good thing but can cause someone with low self esteem to do nothing. Sometimes an incredible man needs an incredible woman. And she might be underneath it all, but how do we get it out of her? That is the question isn't it?

As Harley says the biggest threat to the marriage is not the WS but the BS. And I tend to think part of it is that the BS grows in ways that the WS sometimes doesn't, especially when the road home has been too easy for the WS.


edited for spelling. why oh why isn't there spell check on here?

<small>[ October 18, 2004, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: weaver ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
<strong> I wonder if me doing so much hinders her? I think she could step it up in the areas that make us a good team, that's not too much to ask is it??

You are probably hitting it right on the head here FM, but what can you do? Become less than what you are so she can step up to bat? How in the world do you do that?

I went with a guy in my early twenties who could cook, garden, sail, was more responsible etc, etc, etc., except in one area - heart, he was a cold SOB and I was and still am very warm with a great big heart. I resented the hell out of him, in fact I don't think I could stand him because he excelled at everything I did not. It was like looking in the mirror every day and seeing what I was not. I did nothing but party and lay on the couch, until I finally broke up with him. Then I became all the things he was, and more (except not a very good house cleaner still <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

I don't know where I am going with this, except I think that maybe you are onto something with you being able to do all those things and her not doing anything. You are an incredible man and this is a good thing but can cause someone with low self esteem to do nothing. Sometimes an incredible man needs an incredible woman. And she might be underneath it all, but how do we get it out of her? That is the question isn't it?

As Harley says the biggest threat to the marriage is not the WS but the BS. And I tend to think part of it is that the BS grows in ways that the WS sometimes doesn't, especially when the road home has been too easy for the WS.


edited for spelling. why oh why isn't there spell check on here? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Weaver,
My W has hinted to exactly what you're saying. She told me once before that I make her feel inadequate, that I blocked her sunshine etc.

I don't know how to be less. I think my W had higher self-esteem when she was with younger OM because he didn't know anything. When your 21 your just happy to get laid. OM didn't have any real bills, no children and he had an attractive 30 year old with a car, a townhouse and a good position in an entertainment company. My W didn't make a salary but she was able to travel and do alot of things in the entertainment industry that made her seem very exciting, a mover and a shaker even, MTV Award shows, Music Release Parties, Celebrity Mixer type events etc. I always felt I was the drab reminder of reality. I was the one who payed for that townhouse, not her. I was the one who knew the repo man was looking for the car she was driving, I was the one who knew my W's credit was very bad and needed my co-sign to qualify for anything of value...YEP I was the downside, the reality guy. My W tells me now how she's ready to put those things in past decidely in the PAST but when she makes statements like this I can't help but feel awkward, it's like she'd talking at me but she's actually talking in context of her A not in the reality of a M womans life. Weaver I'm trying to be flexible, but my W isn't bringing very much to the table these days and I'm starting to feel my W has a point when she preaches te mantra *She's not the same person I fell in love with* In the end who knows if I'll end up divorced or married, but lord knows I'm going to end up better than ever and if she's around to enjoy that or not is the real question. I always wanted her to enjoy the new FM because she put up so long with me as a trying to find myself young man, but I can't force her to do anything, like they say *Free Will right?

Quote
__________________________________________________
"In the end who knows if I'll end up divorced or married, but lord knows I'm going to end up better than ever and if she's around to enjoy that or not is the real question. I always wanted her to enjoy the new FM because she put up so long with me as a trying to find myself young man, but I can't force her to do anything, like they say *Free Will right?"
__________________________________________________

HI FM, I just wanted to say that this is the most positive thing I've ever read from a BS on this site, and I wish all BS's could take a leaf out of your book. Rock on Brother.

FM,

I feel your issues, big time. Let me give you a small sample...fww and I went on a trip this last weekend. We were amongst some friends that were aware of what happened. She made a comment to them about why she came home...it was fear of God, and where she was headed and sacrificing...nothing to do with me or 'winning' a good man in the process. Like you, I support my family in all areas, and do a decent job of it. Amongst statements like she made, I want to just kick her butt out of the house and say have a nice life. However, I simply just smiled and talked with our friends on the side, and explained to them the concept of fog talk, and that I just brush off stupid statements like she had made. I know why she came home, and I know it was fear of losing me...for now, I just rest content in that knowledge.

However, a time will come that I stop sitting back on the fog talk. I think you make some very good points and should start to bring them to the open with your wife. I'm at work, but will try to discuss this and my approach to this a bit later tonight, if time allows.

FM,

I have a unique read on this I think. Some people interpret "Plan A" to mean stopping all LBs and meeting all of their S's ENs...and they interpret LBs to mean "anything that upsets the WS". Thus, it is my impression that these people feel like doormats--because they can't do anything to upset the WS, and they have to do everything to meet the ENs while the WS treats them HORRIBLY!!! It is a recipe for disaster.

It is my personal opinion that true Plan A means "getting real" with yourself about the ways that your behavior has been love busting--and having a desire to not lovebust your S. And true Plan A is getting to know your TRUE self again and letting the person you were meant to be come back out. For a variety of reasons, gradually your behavior went from being the person you have the potential to be...to being a nagging, complaining, angry, judgemental person. Your S was attracted to your true self, and your true self naturally met your S's ENs, so become that person again!

THAT is true Plan A. It's not a recipe for disaster because you will keep your focus on becoming the person you were meant to be--and you won't feel like a doormat. You'll just feel more and more inline with your True being!!

FM, when your W said to you "Ignore me" I think what she was saying is "don't keep trying to wait on me"--or "stop focusing on me...do your own thing for a bit." My guess is that she's watching that movie (seeing Tom Cruise just be non-ruffled, manly man) and yeah she likes the breakfasts and the emotional side of you, but sometimes it would be nice if the fine, fierce side came out too. Respect yourself. Be proud of the job you've done and expect her to treat you like the lion king you are. Meet some of those ENs by being FM the stud...not by being FM who knows that she likes XYZ so he's doing that.

Ignore her. Don't think of her or your R or the M every second. Don't try to please her all the time--just be yourself and YOU please her. Does that make sense??


CJ

Do you think the BH’s can take being the nice guy just a little too far?

YES,YES,YES....

If you really study relationships and why one guy has success with women and another doesn't, you will see that it is the strong, confident man who doens't let a woman walk on him in ANY situation, is the man who is the most successful.

I have been on this site for approx 3 years. I have never been in a relationship crisis, so I have looked at this site from a much different perspective than others. There are far too many people on here who get walked on, and yet get encouraged by the "veterans" of this site to stay in "plan A", even though it very seldom works. They see that it seldom works, but they still promote it. Why? Because that's what the "book" says.

I see it differently. Always be nice to women.
Always. That is what I would call a plan A, is deciding to be considerate, and a nice person.

HOWEVER.. The FACTS point out that your best chance to get her to wake up, and wake up quickly, is to get some backbone and let her know that you understand that things may have gone bad in your relationship, but that you WILL NOT SHARE your wife with another man. You will not stop her from leaving, and if she does leave, you will be perfectly fine.

When a man comes across as strong, confident, decisive and yet doesn't panice and get all emotional through the "trial" she is giving him, then he has the best chance to turn her around and get back to the relationship. Read 2long's threads and you will see that being a wimp does not work. He has been at this for almost 3 YEARS and it still isn't decided what she is going to do. He can't see that it isn't working. He can't see that he could have had her back and in the relationship or he could have been healed and moved on by now, if he would have shown some backbone. Instead he did it his way, and many on here tell him how much they respect him for hanging in there, but they don't see that it is his WIFE that secretly doesn't respect him, and never will until he shows her that he deserves better and makes her do some pursuing. However he is considered one of the "experts" on here, and god forbid anybody challenge a veteran who has been unsuccessful in turning a relationship around after 3 years.. Unbelievable to me, because I have seen so much success with me who can stand up for themselves and get "tough" when a woman pulls away...

I think you are on the right track by questioning if you are getting walked on. When something in your gut tells you something, then I think you should listen to it and see if your gut is right....

Good luck

Keepmvnfwd:

I think that your post was one of the single best posts I have ever read on here. It says everything I want to say. I feel the same way as you, but have been accussed of "marriage busting" and not knowing the PLan A/Plan B way of life. I think "some" posters on here take the Plan A WAY past the doormat stage. How can any spouse want to stay with one who is so needy, and dependent. Alot of BS can't let their sposues make their way back to them, they don't "truly" trust this will happen without games and manipulation. They won't let their sposues do what they need to do to want the marriage. They have been betrayed over and over and over again, yet the advice they get is to "take time, don't give up, let him have more time with the OW, he will come around". It is almost like you want to see some of these people stop taking all of the BS and stand up for their dignity and self pride. I don't get it when some of these BS (I am one by the way) take their man/woman back after many betrayals because they feel the WS is in the fog and needs compassion. LOOK HOW MANY FALSE RECOVERIES ARE ON HERE. Look at all the folks on here who advocate spying and snooping to "make sure" there is no contact. What kind of life is that? Yes, there may be some validity to the "fog talk" and "My spouse is addicted, this isn't really him/her" addicition talk but I THINK alot of this is rationalization, and is actually a defense for us BS to help us reconcile in our minds and hearts for essentially continuing to be a "doormat". People on here describe "LB" as anything that upsets the WS....once again, this is a game almost to trick the WS to come back under the FALSE pretenses that this is how we feel and that it will be like this forever. THIS IS NOT REALITY. I have tried the methods here, but I have to tell you, IN MY PERSONAL OPINION, alot of this stuff is games. Slice it any way you want, but we are all manipulating situations in PLan A/B to get our spouses back. They are games people, any way you slice it. I have been cutting back on my posting because I find the majority of time I post something it offends a poster.That is not good and I feel bad about it. People are in pain here and I think if they can get any relief from posting and get support than that is a good thing. I may disagree with alot of the posts on here, but I still encourage people to get help from wherver they can. Good day.

Not the most well versed writer on here but feel the need to jump in .

Lemon & Keep ,,, I am not saying I do not agree with some of the things you are saying ,, but lets say I DO NOT agree on the all out attack on the DOORMAT situation ....

I do not like the use of DOORMAT I find it to be unfair ,, because although bottom line is the WS cheated and that situation may be the only common graound each share there R is different ...

Every BS is aware of the personality they are dealing with in the WS ,, so they may do or say or out up with something that is preseved as a DOORMAT to one person and in reality it may be what the R needs ....

Do I feel a BS should hold anything back ? NO .
Do I think everything should be WORDED NOT to offened WS ? NO .

BUT lets face it we can all as human use alittle more tacked when expresing ones self .

DO I belive it is wrong to LB ? Well yes and NO .

I mean people get mad and if that is your emotion should you HIDE it ,, NO cause you are not being true to yourself ...

BUT do I agree with all MEN should show more BACKBONE to get there W back ,,, NO ....

NOT ALL ,,, why? cause every women is different .

Maybe FM's W thought he was to tough or loud at one point of there M ,,, SHE may be the type of women who needs to see the sentimetal side , the weak side ...

I am just useing that as an example ...

Some WS I agree may need to see the " I will not take this anymore SEE YA AROUND " to GET IT !

BUT not everyone ,,,,

So this is why JMO, there is not a DOORMAT thing in all these PLANS ....

Is MB manipulating and game PLAYING well ,,, possably if the person is not BEING TRUE to themself !


If the BS is being WHO they want to be and is satisfied in themself and truely believes they are doing all they can to either save the M or to let it end with no regret on there part then they are not .... A DOORMAT and are not manipulating and game playing ...

I did not follow MB to the LETTER , and am in recovery ,,, now as to what is going on in recovery I do not blame or regret 99% of the way I handled getting here.

Some thought I was a doormat ,,, and told me so .
Some supported me and tried to understand where I was coming from ...

BUT NO MATTER WHAT ANYONE SAID ,,,, I was doing what I felt I could DO without being UNTRUE to myself and and have any regrets ...

As far as continued A's ,,, thats all up to the indivdual ....

But I still will not judge anyone for continueing what they feel in their hearts to be the right thing and best for themself .................

Sorry FM if this is a thread jack!

FM ,, if you FEEL you should get alittle more tough LOVE then do so ,,, IF YOU are happy to live your life true to the man you are/have become then NO you are not a DOORMAT !

Fear made me a doormat right up until I exposed to OM GF.
The balance of power shifted then. I became unapologetic in the pursuit of ending the A and ensuring that undeserving bat rastard didn't end up with my FWW.

I was still patient, gentle, calm , meeting ENs, avoiding LBs HOWEVER I was feeling but also constant in policing my boundaries. I didn't feel like a 'doormat' any more than a spy in Germany in 1942 felt like a Nazi - adopting uninstinctive behaviours for a good purpose.

I slipped up a bit lately as we entered recovery, and became a bit too passive but I learned a lesson to be more forthright.

FM! How are you my friend?!?!?!?
I, as usual, have been following your posts closely, been thinking about you quite often and talk with brown about your sit, admire you, and just waiting for the right time to jump in and say something. I haven't had any words of encouragement and there hasn't been a "right time"--UNTIL NOW.

First, keep and lemon, do you know FM's sit?

Second--and it's my own observation from life experiences (and ironically, I just used this analogy the other day): with all due respect keep, it's like a a never-been-married MC giving advice on "How to stay and be happy in a M!" Read, study, analyze all you want. But it doesn't have the same effect, impact as one who has been there.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by keepmovn4wrd:
If you really study relationships and why one guy has success with women and another doesn't, you will see that it is the strong, confident man who doens't let a woman walk on him in ANY situation, is the man who is the most successful.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This *IS* a good question--not statement, but question? Please--even if it's just to satisfy my curiosity--supply the "numbers" behind your "study."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are far too many people on here who get walked on, and yet get encouraged by the "veterans" of this site to stay in "plan A", even though it very seldom works. They see that it seldom works, but they still promote it. Why? Because that's what the "book" says.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK...I have a confession: I have never read the book. I, too, as well as my W who is also a member of this site, felt the same: why the he11 are people letting themselves be treated as dirt? Again, it really *IS* a good question. Before I give my theory on Plan A, do you know what your statement says to me? That if there is any problem in a M, LEAVE! This is the message you are conveyeing. If they're an alcoholic, don't stay and try. You can use any "problem/devil" in here. Your theory--and certainly correct me if I'm wrong--is "Don't try. HAve a backbone. And that takes precedence over any sympathy and support you can give. Even while your spouse is trying to recover." Pretty much what you said, right?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HOWEVER.. The FACTS point out that your best chance to get her to wake up, and wake up quickly, is to get some backbone and let her know that you understand that things may have gone bad in your relationship, but that you WILL NOT SHARE your wife with another man. You will not stop her from leaving, and if she does leave, you will be perfectly fine.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow. This is real warped logic. Again, I ask, Do you know this sit that you are openly and freely giving your opinions like this? First--and not putting words into FM's mouth--but, the OM is out of the picture already. They are trying to RECOVER. Absolutely: yell, scream, rant, rave: there is no place for a 3rd person in a M! Absolutely. But that's not where FM (and many MB'ers) are at. It's the recovery process. So, you're saying that even though the OP is out, he should still leave because she can't get a grip on her illnesses and the fact she knows (or so we pretty much think) f'd up big time? Just leave? Is that what you are REALLY saying here?!?!? WOW.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Read 2long's threads and you will see that being a wimp does not work. He has been at this for almost 3 YEARS and it still isn't decided what she is going to do. He can't see that it isn't working. He can't see that he could have had her back and in the relationship or he could have been healed and moved on by now, if he would have shown some backbone. Instead he did it his way, and many on here tell him how much they respect him for hanging in there, but they don't see that it is his WIFE that secretly doesn't respect him, and never will until he shows her that he deserves better and makes her do some pursuing. However he is considered one of the "experts" on here, and god forbid anybody challenge a veteran who has been unsuccessful in turning a relationship around after 3 years.. Unbelievable to me, because I have seen so much success with me who can stand up for themselves and get "tough" when a woman pulls away...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please, let us in on these "true testimonials."

Oh, and not to put words in ol2's mouth either, but, maybe it isn't about backbone: maybe it's seeing the WS as sick and trying to help heal that person. Again, analogy: your spouse is in the hospital for cancer. Don't know if it's benign or malignant. You're saying, "Who cares? Have a backbone (regardless of what could be the real diagnosis) and see where the cards lay. But throw compassion out of the window." Am I wrong?

Love to hear from ol2 himself on this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you are on the right track by questioning if you are getting walked on. When something in your gut tells you something, then I think you should listen to it and see if your gut is right...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK. We sorta agree on this. It IS good (IMHO) to question things. If not, one becomes complacent. That's where trouble starts. M and oneself requires constant upgrading, learning, and work.

Please, let us know what your experiences are (are you M?; any kids?; etc.) and I'll continue to have an open-mind about things. However, you are way off on this one. No one said for ANYBODY to be a "doormat". Reading between the lines or whatever. Plan A is all about a learning and "restructuring" process, the way I see it. It's not about complying to the S; it's about wanting the S to wake the f up so they can once again be M. My deduction? You're not M. And if so, your W is a doormat. JMHO.

M is a two-way street my friend. It always equals 100% from both S's. It doesn't have to be 50% / 50% and rarely is. Right now, in FM's sit, the way I see it, it's FM 90%, FM's S 10%--points for knowing her name. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> If it stays this way, then IMHO, they have a problem.


Lemon, your perception of LB is sorta twisted, dontchya think? It is NOT about "anything that makes the spouse upset." It is about comments like "Get over it" and perception. In an A, there is no perception. NONE. It is all about fulfilling needs or wants that is not being done or trying to be done in an A. Fairly simple concept. But the illusions that are created by these perceptions--that's where the problems lie.

It's all in how you say things. ANYTHING. In life, not just M's and A's. EVERYTHING. Even though I personally studied it (how f'ing ironic, huh, as I am the FWH?) communication is key. As the cliche goes about honey and vinegar...So true. That's what plan A is about--honey. Not being a doormat.

JMHO and my two sense.

WHOA!
I guess this topic struck a chord with many people here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I'm not a Doormat, I am polite and caring, I am not a Cave man, I am strong, resilient and viral. I'm me. I'm getting back to myself these days, but I am also continuing to foster my new outlook of being spiritually grounded. My W is moving towards me, but I must admit I've been making it very easy. Actually I think it's been easy for the last 2 years, she was only making life harder for herself by clinging to a wannabe single-life and her life with OM. I still wonder if my W has the presence of mind to hook me? Where's my suprises? Will my W ever get it, that she could lose me and will she ever act to make sure that doesn't happen? HMMMM, only time will tell.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> FaithfulNewCJ

FM, when your W said to you "Ignore me" I think what she was saying is "don't keep trying to wait on me"--or "stop focusing on me...do your own thing for a bit." My guess is that she's watching that movie (seeing Tom Cruise just be non-ruffled, manly man) and yeah she likes the breakfasts and the emotional side of you, but sometimes it would be nice if the fine, fierce side came out too. Respect yourself. Be proud of the job you've done and expect her to treat you like the lion king you are. Meet some of those ENs by being FM the stud...not by being FM who knows that she likes XYZ so he's doing that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Message received: No more being overly concerned with my W's comfort level, there is a such thing as too much of a good thing. My W recently made a comment that she thinks I'm in love with the thought of being in love and with being in love...or something to that degree. I was floored. I'm not in love with the thought of being in love! I'm not even in love with her at this point, I'm just determined to give my M all that is in me. So with that statement falling from her mouth I decided okay time to really step back and re-evaluate my actions. My W must be feeling I'm sort of sappy which I am not, but we all know perception is reality. My goal this week is to begin to ween her from the sappy FM and reintroduce the more true to himself strong, self-contained; FM. How can my W do any pursuing or submitting if I'm perpetually the giver? Follow me? I also think even if your in Plan A you have to allow your S to give at some point. My W needs to be a giver because in my humble opinion W are naturally givers by nature and me not letting my Taker out at least for short intervals HINDERS her from being her TRUE SELF. Message Sent: Message Recieved, Logged and FILED. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I have a feeling there's gonna be some heat jumping around the FM's house this weekend. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR! Tom Cruise only 5 foot 5 I'm 6 foot 1 we'll see who's more manly. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
lemonman

I think "some" posters on here take the Plan A WAY past the doormat stage. How can any spouse want to stay with one who is so needy, and dependent. Alot of BS can't let their sposues make their way back to them, they don't "truly" trust this will happen without games and manipulation. They won't let their sposues do what they need to do to want the marriage. They have been betrayed over and over and over again, yet the advice they get is to "take time, don't give up, let him have more time with the OW, he will come around". It is almost like you want to see some of these people stop taking all of the BS and stand up for their dignity and self pride.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lemon,
I agree with you I only hope you weren't talking to me specifically because for me, I've made some changes not to woo my W back to our M but because it's the MAN I want to be. I desire to be the type of man only a crazy women would leave or give up and I intend to maintain that course of growth even if my W does prove to be a crazy woman and gives me up <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Get it???? Yes some people here do take PLAN A too far, but I don't think it's manipulation at all. Take for instance how we behave at work compared to how we behave with friends after work hours. We are always us but we modify ourselves for the situations that we are in, Humans are adaptive and I guess that can be percieved as manipulation, but in that case we are all manipulating, navigating and trying to influence our lives and those people in our lives for our benefit, for our happiness etc... Is manipulating our actions to fit a goal in itself wrong? I dont think so, but I do think there's a difference in being YOU because you should be you and being YOU because you want to LURE falsely influence our spouses into reconciling with some fictional, fabricated version of ourselves and that's why I think all changes made during Plan A should be LIFETIME CHANGES not changes of convenience or persuasion. I hope you see my point of view, agreeing with is a whole other issue.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">keepmovn4wrd
Member # 37527 posted October 21, 2004 08:00 AM
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Do you think the BH’s can take being the nice guy just a little too far?

YES,YES,YES....

If you really study relationships and why one guy has success with women and another doesn't, you will see that it is the strong, confident man who doens't let a woman walk on him in ANY situation, is the man who is the most successful.

HOWEVER.. The FACTS point out that your best chance to get her to wake up, and wake up quickly, is to get some backbone and let her know that you understand that things may have gone bad in your relationship, but that you WILL NOT SHARE your wife with another man. You will not stop her from leaving, and if she does leave, you will be perfectly fine. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">KM4'd,
YUP! I agree with you as well, but there is a line between confidence and indifference that one should be careful when navigating <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Unless of course that's how you really feel...You gotta talk the walk, or walk the talk. I wouldn't suggest any BS stand up and shout "Get it together or Get out of here" that is unless they can deal with their spouse doing the latter right then and there. I did get to that point, I did go to Plan B and she did come home, my feelings did begin to change from save my M and family to save my family and save myself. There's alot to be said about respecting yourself regardless to the plan your in and how some of us put ourselves through needless grief just to arrive at the same crossroads and end up proclaiming "Get it together or Get out of here" JUST THE SAME AS *Cutting 2 The Chase BS's like yourself. I think too long of a Plan A only hurts the BS and hinders the WS from making facing up to some harsh realities, from my understanding most M's require a Plan B to wake up a WS anyway right? Good points KM4'd, I happen to believe we go through only what we choose to go through and sometimes its all for reasons that we don't post, express or understand.


3isa, Rookev I'll respond to you folks in a few...gotta get back to work. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />