I have spent many many hours on the MB site. More than a year now. I've
utilized as many MB principles as I can but I realize that MB is not
meant for cases of alcohol abuse and violence.
My marriage of almost 20 years has not changed for the better. Who is
at fault I really don't know anymore.

Some of you may remember. Many of you helped me thru some difficult
times and I appreciate all your support. Thank You from the bottom of my heart.
My first thread was
"WITH HIS DEAD FRIEND"S WIFE"
I suspected my H of having at least an EA with the wife of his
deceased friend. I never learned the truth. She moved away.
Given my circumstantial evidence many of you were sure he was guilty.
Some even felt that it was probably a PA. At this time, and for the past
several months it is a taboo subject in this house. He refuses to
discuss anything about it, including the pain I feel or my beliefs that
it was at minimum an EA. He justs tells me to "get over it" and still
swears nothing was going on. I just cannot believe him nor forgive him.

My oldest DD (23) and my granddaughter moved out west. During one of
the breakups with her abusive partner, she ran into an old high school
boyfriend. He's a great guy and I pray every day that they marry. He is
in the AF. Problems still arise the couple of times she has been home. Her
DD's father will not let go, has attempted suicide (weak attempt), puts
so much guilt on her it's diffficult to get her back on the plane to
go back out west. Yet she will bring the baby here for visitation
although he does not help her financially in any way. My H believes she
is still not done with him and will go back to him again. My H has even
made bets with his drinking buddies that he is right. I remain optimistic
that she never comes back to him. I think it's pretty sick minded
to make bets on the demise of your kids (his stepdaughter).

I did a pretty good Plan A while my H was spending so much time with
the ow. Some LB's yes, couldn't help it, he is a really mean drunk. In
2003 alone he had 20 episodes of coming home drunk, mean, angry, very
verbally and emotionally abusive. The 20 times are only the times
I remembered to write down. I'm sure I forgot several. Plan A doesn't
work very well with alcohol abusers.

When I have tried to talk with him and explain my efforts at repairing
this marriage his remark was "the only time I was nice to him or
wanted SF with him was when I thought he was having an A". So now I wonder
if he enjoyed seeing the pain he inflicted on me? Did he get enjoyment
from breaking my heart? Did he enjoy his "heroism" in her eyes? Was it
just a giant ego boost? Did he do this intentionally to hurt me?

He claims I turned my back on him during the problems with my DD. Says
that's why he took his wedding ring off for 6 months. He claims that
my anger at his drunken rampages is not justifiable. His abusiveness at
my DD and myself, usually while drunk, are justifiable. He refuses to acknowledge
that he: 1. Has a drinking problem. 2.Is abusive. (He claims I am
the abusive one), and 3. He is in any way responsible for the state our
marriage is in. He says I am abusive because I have accused him of an A.

I recently requested that we separate in order to protect the little
bit of love I still have for him. I really tried to help him understand
that this could be a good thing for us and that maybe it will help. I
started MC on my own. He says he doesn't have time to go. I asked him to move
into our rental house. He refuses to move. Said if I want to separeate
than I can move.

He was very very angry about my suggestion. He claims that a D is all I ever
wanted, so just go ahead, get your divorce. Told me it's in my blood, that I
just want a"new d*ck",(yes he has a filthy mouth), that it has been my plan all
along to wait until we are almost debt free and then take half of everything "he"
has worked for.
Says he even told his mother that. Says I have never supported him in
this business. (I am the office manager, bookkeeper, mother of two,
I do all the household chores including our very large lawn, I am the
plumber, the carpenter, the Ms. fix it, ect..ect..plus I ran my own business for 16 years,
a 40 horse training center) Huge amount of work. He has constantly complained,
and refused to help me or support me in any way in my business. I finally gave up and
sold out. I feel like he has stolen my dreams, destroyed who I am, or was anyway.

The only thing he does in the household is take the trash out a
couple times a week..(when he remembers).
He has NEVER washed a dish, done laundry, or cleaned anything in this house.
He changed one diaper in his life (with older DD's help). He
has never watched the kids. We have Never gone on a family vacation,
although he has found time for fishing, hunting, drinking ect...This is how he
was raised. He is a chip off the old block.

And he thinks because he works all day, every day, (he is a workaholic) and
his drinking does not interfere with his work that he does not have a drinking
problem. (He is self-employed) Again, he is a chip off the old block.
He thinks that his beer induced anger and rampages are justifiable. He believes
that a sober man's mind is a drunk man's mouth. He is so defensive about the drinking
that I dare not say a word.

I drove to town a few nights ago. WOndered where he was. I had not heard from nor seen
him since early morning. While I was sitting in the local bar parking lot looking at
his parked truck, I called him on his cell. Asked him cheerily
"what you doing? Going to be home soon?" He said, we are at Jim's, auger broke down."
I said, Oh you going to be there long? Maybe I'll drive over". No response..
I asked again, where did you say you are? It took him 5 round-about questions
before he would admit that he was in the bar. I said OK, when are you coming home
for dinner? He said he would be home in 1/2 hour. I did not tell him that I was
out in the parking lot. He finally came hour 4 hours later.

This is routine in our marriage. Complete disrespect and inconsideration. 20 years
of the same behavior. But in his mind he is doing nothing wrong. After all,
he worked all day. Like father, like son. I am so glad that I do not have sons.
But then again, what have I taught my DD's?? That this is a normal life??

My renters are moving out the end of this month. And I am moving in. He can drink
til the cows come home. I'll be right next door, but my door will be locked. I'm not
sure who my almost 17 year old DD will decide to stay with. I hope she will come with
me but I cannot force her to leave our home. One night of him coming home drunk and
raising hell and she will be at my door anyway. She hates him when he drinks.

So why have I written this? I suppose to convince myself that I am doing the right thing.
Who knows, maybe he'll end up at what he calls "those dumb drunk meetings". I know this is
not MB ways, but I really don't know what else to do.

Danneill
(Hope to take my computer with me)

Danneill,

Sorry you are dealing with all these issues. A few here (ie: MelodyLane, BrambleRose, etc.) have dealt with AA issues.

Recommned you get support so you can to help you deal with these issues. From an outsiders perspective you need to continue to protect you and your children. The WS or aloholic can not benefit from your help until he is ready to help himself.

See if you can get to AA mtgs for your support. Can some of the children help with the workload so you can get to these meetings?

There are other legal options and services. Check out your local women's abusive service centers (available in most larger cities). Keep posting.

Hugz,
L.

Danielli,

I grew up with an alcoholic dad. And believe me you are doing the right thing. Both of my parents are dead now (long story), but I believe that an intervention and my mom leaving my dad would have saved both of their lives.

There is not a day that goes by that I don't miss them. My mom (all of us really) loved my dad and she was not able to do the tough love thing that was necessary to possibly get him to quit drinking.

It is a long sad story, but yes you are doing the right thing. Please, Please go to Al-anon and get support from them. Also you will need help with an intervention, it is vitally important. I only wish you could further away than next door.

I wish you the best. I would give anything to still have my dad and mom alive. So please for your own sake, for yourdaughters sake, and for you husbands sake go to Al-anon and find out what you can do to help save your family.

Bless you!

Weaver

blessings to you...

there is no shame in giving the gift of love...what a person chooses to do with it..is as God's law commands...

of their choice and freewill....

all of what is sent to you from him...is his self loathing and hate turned outwards....

it is not and never has been you...
it would be whomever stood beside him...

each "right" person and thing in his life..magnifies his own "wrongness and action"..

it is all his to own..

There is even no great mystery in their choice to betray...for the person they betray with..is a mirror of their own self...in action and blame....
the safest escape is with someone just like them...
for no one can judge let alone complain...

will he ever own it???

no one knows...

seek a place of no more power struggles...

when you remove yourself from his blame...
he will initially escalate his bad behaviors...
prepare for that....
really
prepare to ascertain your safety....

the route and plan you are on...IS the MB way...

you can not change him
you can not control him...

you can stand silently in the peripheral moving onwards...
knowing that it is not in your control and you can live and thrive free of his chaos...

enjoy your sanctuary....

ARK

Thanks for your well wishes and all your advice Orchid, weaver and Ark..

Weaver, what do you mean by intervention? Do you mean AA, Al-anon or domestic violence group? If so, yes I am going that route.

When I first asked him to move he said no-way...you want separation, you move. I mentioned that I could get a PO on him served and he said he'll have one put on me. But I'm not the violent one.

Saw IC MC again today. She suggested I tell my DD my plans. I told her and she is of course very upset. I assured her that I will still be here for her and that I hope she will live with me, though she can still keep her room here.

I'm not sure that she will move with me. I'm going from a 3000 sq ft nice home to our rental mobile home. It's small and it's a mobile home but I am looking forward to it being (my own place).

What else should I be telling my DD??? I did tell her that I hope she comes with me (it's only next door). For one thing I believe he will drink a LOT as soon as I move...and he is going to be really p*ssed..And she'll be his audience and sounding board.
I know he will involve her as well as the rest of the world.
I'll be a piece of sh*t no good b*tch from now on.

Any advice?
Danneill

What I meant by intervention is when you confront the alcoholic about his drinking with facts that he can not deny. It has to be done with a professional from AA. They would come to the home and guide the intervention. You, your daughter and any one else who is affected by his drinking would be there. It is designed to stop the denial part of the alcoholism and is the first step in help usually.

As far as what I would tell my DD if I was you is the truth. She won't stay with your husband once you leave because you are right, if he doesn't enter rehab after the intervention his drinking will escalate. Tell her you are doing this because you love her, you love him and you want a better life for all of you. Something has to be done before it is too late.

Try to get your DD into alateen. I realise this might be hard, but if she sees it as a mission she might be open to it.

I have alot of triggers reading your posts because it is what I grew up with. I loved my dad, and my mom loved him as you do your husband.

At al-anon they will explain intervention to you and they will make sure that you are safe afterward.

I once drove about 5 hours to convince a former Viet Nam vet to come to my house and talk to my dad who was dying at the time, and thought he was back in Viet Nam at the time, come to my house to talk my dad into going into the hospital and it did work, but he killed himself after my mom died anyway.

I believe my Mom died because she just couldn't take it anymore, so she checked out so to speak.

Like I said people, especially the people at AA and al-anon will help you in anyway because they have been there and are devoted to helping alcoholics and their families. Just like the man who did the 10 hour round trip just to help me and my family.

reading through Weavers posts here I feel compelled to chime in.

My sister died this year - in April. she was only 44. Died in her sleep one night. She was not sick or anything, just went to bed and never woke up. The coroners report did not blame it on alchohol - but the fact is she was drinking heavily for the past coupe of years. I knew it. her husband knew it - my Dad knew it. But I think we all figured something big would happen - and she would finally have to admit she had a problem, and then we would swoop in and save her.

A couple of times in the past year I confronted her. "Cathy - you have a problem - you are even drunk right now". She would say "I'm not drunk - I am just too hot, or I have the flu, or I have a headache" she had a bunch of excuses. I knew she was making it up. But didn't know what to do. I even talked to her H about it - but he was drinking too and didn't want to quit so he could not do much to help her. (her H has HUGE regrets now. He says that he knew she had a problem and wishes he had spoken to her about it. Or at least tried. he said that she would start in the morning - Vodka and orange Kool-Aid. When he asked her why she was drinking so early she would say "that is my left over drink from last night I am just finishing it off" he knew it wasn't left over from last night - he knew it was fresh - but didn't want to confront her)

Let me tell you that the day she died I realzed that you can't wait for something "big" to happen to wake them up. That big thing may be their death. I read an aritcle recently that said when you wait for them to "hit rock bottom" you have likely waited too long. I know that now.

I realize you did not come here to ask how you could get your H to stop drinking. You are looking for help with your marriage, and the break up of your relationship.

But I think Weaver has given some great advice. when you move out you will send a clear message to your H that you will no longer tolerate his drinking or his abuse. he may wake up - he may not. Either way - you need to start taking care of yourself.

Get into the AA program soon. I wish I had tried an intervention with my sister. I never did. And now I can't.

Womanoffaith,

I don't want to threadjack but I just want to give you a hug. Your post made me cry, I am sorry about the loss of your sister, and I am glad you posted atleast part of her story. What a horrible, horrible loss to your family. I hate alcoholism as much as I hate infidelity, maybe more. What a terrible shame. The loss of a sister is a huge loss and I am sorry.

weaver

Weaver I am so sorry for the loss of your parents.
Womanoffaith, your sister was so young. I'm so sorry.
I fear that will happen to my SIL also. She drinks more than my H. Father, son, daughter in my H's family are alcoholics. Their daddy taught them drinking is OK as long as they worked all day.

DD went to order her class ring. Hope to talk some more when she returns. I think she just wanted to get away and think about all I told her.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What I meant by intervention is when you confront the alcoholic about his drinking with facts that he can not deny. It has to be done with a professional from AA. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think he would appreciate this! Maybe after I move and if he is willing to work on our M.
He has promised many times to go to AA but he only tells me what I want to hear....but then I have never left him before either.

That has been a big thorn in our M. He tells me what I want to hear, then does what he wants anyway.

Another thing he has been a pro at is manipulation. If I needed something from him, for example..fix a piece of equipment that I needed, or bring the chopper here so I can moe the pastures......It never got done unless he got something he needed first. Usually SF.

It has always been a power struggle. He wants his needs filled, but wasn't there for mine. Maybe that has been a big problem in our M all along. Me angry because I have to make promises if I want anything in return. Thing is I always kept my promises. He always broke his.

Danneill

MB'ers

For one of our business's we get paid in a lump sum once per year. We have managed to put it all in savings for a couple years and the plan has been to pay off the mortgage within 2 more years.

Do I dare move my half of our savings into my own account before I move? The plan was to apply the funds in December...

Knowing his alcohol problems and anger issues, do I dare do this?

I did ask my attorney, I do have the rights to half of it. She said to think twice about it because it's really going to p*iss him off.

Danneill

Danniell,

I would move the money if I were you. You may need it, and there is a very good chance he will move it, if you don't.

Is there anyway you can get a restraining order in place before you leave him? Also could you go to a safe house for a few days at first? Until you know how safe you are wants he goes berserk? And take DD with you or send her to grandma's for a few days?

You seem to be very afraid of his reaction and that scares me. I don't know if right next door is a good plan, until the smoke clears a bit.

Please make sure that you and DD are safe, have every thing in order. I know this is what you are doing now.

I hope some others with experience in abusive/alcoholic stiches jump in here. My home was alcoholic but never abusive.

Also,

Get some pepper spray, if you don't already have some. Keep it with you always. I had to use it once when I was tending bar, brought the enraged alcoholic right to his knees puking his guts out and gave me a chance to get to the phone.

You can order pepper spray off of the enternet, the one I have also has a blinding light in it.
2 fer 1'r. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Weaver-
I just want to give you a hug. Your post made me cry

Right back at ya baby!
Thank you for thinking of me, and consider yourself hugged.

Danneill -
You are getting some great advice here - please don't overlook it. I am with Weaver - your posts are scaring me a little. It sounds like you are worried about what he might do - and your lawyer is worried too.
I would definately move half that money. You may need it. Is he going to be mad? You bet. But he is going to be mad when you leave anyway, and at least this way you will be able to support yourself.
What does your attorney say about you leaving your daughter behind? I don't think that sounds like a very good plan. First of all, you are scared of this man - you can not, and will not tolerate his abuse any longer. Why on earth would you allow your daughter to stay there? If you leave her behind, I worry that your H could file for custody on the grounds that you abandoned her. This is a very real possbility - you need to ask your attorney about this. (frankly - I am surprised your attorney didn't all ready think of this)

I know you feel bad for leving your H - but you are doing the right thing - you are the mom here, you are the "boss" and you need to tell her where she is going to live. Do not get caught up in the idea that she is 16 and should feel free to live where she wants to. She is ONLY 16 - you need to be the boss here. I was surprised to find out, during my own divorce, that here in the state of Oregon children do NOT get to choose where they want to live until age 18. I had "assumed" that my 16 year old could make his own choice - but my attorney said no. I figured that if he wanted to stay with me 100% of the time, and never see his dad, then the courts would back that up, but my attorney said no. Now, the reality is that my Ex doesn't try to force himself on his son, he knows that it would permanently destory their relationship, but technically, if he went to court my 16 year old could be forced to spend time with his dad.

Also, I worry that if you leave your daughter behind she will feel like she has to take care of her dad. Is that really the kind of life you want for her? Cleaning up after him?

Have you called AA yet??? Look in the yellow pages - find a number - and call. Please.

Report back your progress here.

Weaver and I are trying to love you through this!

You are so right weaver and wowmanoffaith. It's the guilt that keeps creeping into my brain. Women who live as I have for 10 years (1st ten he was not a mean drunk) learn to accept that it's the beer.We store the pain and hurt so deep that we go on and it doesn't resurface until it happens again...and again....and again....

We accept that maybe it really is not a mountain,,,just a molehill. That is how we survive and why we stay. Until there's wayyyyyyy too much water under the bridge. Kick your dog in the face enough times and pretty soon he'll not come near you.

Another thing is that verbal and emotional abuse are not looked at or acknowledged the same as physical abuse to the general population. To the experts yes, and the victims yes, they know it exists....but to many it is insignificant. Not serious, not damaging, not worth divorcing over.
It is usually downplayed.

In my case I am independant and very strong willed. I am not a push over like his mom, which is what he expects me to be. I am not a man hater but a woman who has learned to do things myself. Mainly because my H is never here. I am 5'2" with my shoes on and weigh 120 lbs. But by gosh when he pushes me and pushes me I want to get right back in his face! And I have. And yes I was scared as h*ll. He's 6' and 200 lbs of pure muscle.

What a dumb thing to do, huh? In these instances I stood up for my DD's.The past couple years I have learned to control my anger. I know that you do not fight with him when he is drunk. No one wins. It's a losing battle.

I do have a shining moment that I will hever forget and hold dear after all the crap he has put me through. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> One morning after one of his drunken rampages (he was still in bed) I got a cold glass of water and threw it right in his face. He came out of that bed in record time. I put my finger in his face and said "You listen here you son-of-a-b*itch and you listen good. If you ever come home that drunk and mean again I'm going to blah bah blah...

He was in total shock! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

In know, big LB. Disrespectful. But it sure felt good.
Did it do any good? No..He was only good for about 3 weeks that time.

My point is, they downplay the abuse, make you think you brought it on, started the fight ect...Soon you are wondering if he is right. You don't realize that he is wrong until the next time it happens.

I went to IC MC again today. And I went to the Doc for help for sleeping. I (for years) can not sleep more than an hour or two at a time.

I told my DD that she is going with me. I am not leaving our property so I would not be abandoning her anyway, but you are right I don't want her here in the house. He'll be drinking heavy I'm sure.

I have found an Al anon group and will be going there tomarrow. As far as being afraid of him, I'm not physically afraid. Just of his mouth.

My IC says, You go girl! You are on a roll!

Danneill

Womanoffaith is right on about your daughter taking up any slack if you are no longer willing to do it.

I took care of my dad for 5 years after my mom no longer could (she bacame a compulsive gambler as a means of escape). I spent five whole years going from one rehab center, emergency room, jail house, hospital to another with my baby, then todler, then little girl in tow. I know all the EMT people in town now. I even ended up going to court to get POA for him. It was heartbreaking for me. And now we don't have him or her anymore, damn alcoholism.

The trouble with alcoholism is it is progressive. It gets to the point where his body will no longer tolerate the alcohol but he can not quit drinking it. It is a HORRIBLE way to die.

Your husband is still relatively young, but 10 years from now, if he doesn't get help it will not be pretty. Alcohol also kills brain cells, and the depression gets worse, and worse for all in the family.

I am soooo glad you are doing this, I could just kiss you! You are a brave and admirable woman... keep rolling!

Last post was pretty long. sorry....but I wanted to add...

Since last Sat. when I asked him to move and he said no that I can move I have been sleeping in other bedroom.

He has been soooooo nice to me since Sunday. I think his Mother told him that I am serious. I've only seen him for half hour or so per day (normal this time of year) and actually most of the year.....

He has called me couple times a day to tell me harvest yeilds are good, say thanks for cooking him dinner, pork chops were good ect...I have been short but polite and have not initiated any further conversations.

I feel I am better off keeping my distance but keeping the peace at the same time.

Anyone want to bop me on the head for cooking his dinner? Should I be?? If not and he comes home sober I'm in the clear. But if he comes home drunk I'll have h*ll to pay. Think I better keep cooking until I move.

Danneill

Don't let him sweet talk you into changing your mind. You leave - he bottoms out.

He gets sober then all the MB principle's you have been learning will apply, but not until then. He gets sober and you have a chance at a good marriage and happy family.

Until he gets sober and is working a recovery program, you stick to your plan.

Al-anon and this board are going to help you through it.

And yes, cook the man's dinner while you are there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks Weaver,
Think I will make pork chops again tonight. Think I'll just make pork chops EVERY night. Maybe when he gets sick of pork chops he'll cook for himself! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You know I posted to the Best place to live thread...I am also from MI. The lower..

And I am not going to let him talk me out of it.
His Mother is trying pretty hard to. But she did tell me that she spoke to him and tried to make him understand that just because he was raised this way (drinking, verbal abuse, ectt..) that it does not mean that it was right. That he probably does not know any different. He is mirror image of his dad.

Danneill

Think I will make pork chops again tonight. Think I'll just make pork chops EVERY night. Maybe when he gets sick of pork chops he'll cook for himself!


<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Made him pork chops againe last night!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm feeling really angry & bitter today. Went back through my notes I took while I suspected his A. Listened also to recordings, and recordings of OW conversations with me.

Then I listened to the tapes I have of his rampages, the one where he said "this whole place can go, I don't care anymore, I don't care about you anymore Danneill, I don't care anymore. I'll sell this whole F***ing place".

Then I start thinking, well it's been more than a year, H betrayed OW in a business deal this past summer. Would like to call her and ask her if she will spill her guts to me now. That's the only way I may ever know the truth.

MIL was here yesterday, her comments,,aughhh your not going to move. You guys will make up. He was just helping her, yea he drinks like his dad, normal way of life for him, that's all he knows ect....

She will not accept how serious this is. Then she said, so who will help me with this or that? You are the only one that will help me when I need it.

I'm still sleeping up stairs. Pretending to sleep anyway, cause I don't sleep. See H in the morning for 5-10 minutes. He acts like nothing wrong and goes about his merry way.

Can't move till at least 3-4th of november. Too much time...I need to move now.
Danneill