My W went to see her therapist today...

Anyway...long story short, he put a bug in her ear re: "are you sure VM has been totally honest about all of his A's?"
He hinted that he had priveleged info from another source...another patient, connected to my former band perhaps. He didn't violate confidentiality laws, but he did get her thinking about it, a way that made her think that he knew more about the band than he was allowed to say.

So, she asked me if I had been totally honest with her...
And she asked it in a way that made me think she had additional info...

And...
I HAD hidden one last A from her.
It was a close friend of mine from many years ago, a ONS that she and I both felt guilty about at the time and promised would never happen again.

I admitted it to my BS/WW tonight.
She didn't allow me a chance to explain, to respond, she just said she wants a DV, she wants to start a new life without me, she's going to make me pay for everything, etc.etc.etc. and hung up.

I think she means it this time, even though I have heard this before.
I think I blew it totally by not telling her about this OW on my HONESTY DAY, when I told her about everyone else.

I didn't admit to this particular A because she was a girl that had worked for me, that then moved out of state, and we had more of an EA than I did with any of the others. My W knew we were friends and was suspicious of her then...I guess I hid it because I didn't want to confirm her suspicions, nor did I want to add one more OW to the mix.

So...I guess this is it. I guess I don't need to post here anymore, because I really think my W is done.
It could just be temporary, I HAVE heard these words before, but how many times does she think she can take it?
Maybe I'd be doing her a favor by letting her go.

Advice, anyone? I actually thought she and I were making some progress, even if it was very very slight...I have had a lot of hope lately...

And none of this changes my commitment to making myself right again...

But now I feel destroyed and hopeless all over again....

She said that she never wants to speak to me, see me, ever again and is going to throw everything I own that's still in the house in the dumpster <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ October 26, 2004, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

I'm replying to myself because I just realized...

I came clean on Sept. 19 about all but one of my A's...(gee, look at that, exactly 1 month ago)...

And after I told her she screamed and yelled and talked DV and told me to get out...

And not too long later I was back in her bed and having SF with her...

I'm hoping this wasn't the straw that broke the camel's back...but it very well could be, and it would be all my fault. This doesn't sound like anger or fog talk...she didn't bring up OM one time in this discussion...this is all about HER and ME, and my LIES.

If we CAN work it out, it's going to be a looooonnnnng time. And it's mostly my fault.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Also a month-long physical affair with "D", and start friendship with "K" that months later turns into a physical affair and friendship. Plus I am still in the affair with "A." All know I am married and intend to stay that way.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why??

Why?

Because I really truly positively love my wife.
My A's didn't have an impact on THAT, I think that's what this entire board is about.

This board is dedicated to those who have made mistakes or been the victim of mistakes that are dishonest and irrelevant to the true love we feel for our S's.

THAT'S why.

But.....
Not only does my W have to heal and get past my infidelities, and my repeated lies (even up to tonight)...but I have to get over hers. I have to convince her that I'm healed and changed and would never do this to her again, but she would have to lose her feeling for OM, dump him, and decide to work on us.

<sigh>
Maybe I'm chasing a pipe dream after all...maybe it would be better for me to cut my losses and turn away...maybe I'm grasping at something that stands so little chance of actually working....

<small>[ October 19, 2004, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

My why was why at THAT time?, not now.

Well, I understand that all of us have different definition of (true) love, respect, family... and different age when we do grow up too...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have to convince her that I'm healed and changed and would never do this to her again</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And you really are? Changed?
Leaving the band? not to get into new temptations?? doesn't sound as a change...
If changed, no temptations even if you work in a harem <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Just thinking loud... not judging... just a few thoughts, for your future's sake...

Good luck, of course.

No, I understand what you're saying.

Why then? Not sure. I do believe that my infidelity was mostly about my ego getting boosted. I think the reason I left out this most recent admission of an OW was that she was a FRIEND, meaning it was more of an EA, and as far as my W is concerned the only hope I had was that all the other OW were all just PA's, cheap thrills. But obviously I DID have the capacity to have some sort of EA even when I was with her.

As for my change...
No, leaving the band and eliminating temptation does not constitute actual change. That's something I'm working towards with help from IC. The change itself and the convincing her that it can/will happen will take more time.

I guess...
I have nothing but time now.
I have no desire to alter my behavior just because it seems like it might be OVER for real, I still have work to do and changes to make, and I WILL move on without her if I have to.
But I suppose...I should just step back, do my work, treat her with love and calm if she contacts me, and wait to see what happens.

If she decides to come back, great. If she doesn't, I have mostly myself to blame.

Oh, forgot something:

There are signs forward the light everywhere, we just don't see them, or don't pay enough attention...

There is one of them, for you... your wife saying that you are 'spending more energy on winning her back than ... on fixing yourself'...

It means, don't spend energy convincing her in your change, but change yourself and she'll be convinced!

Don't worry, she WILL know when/if you really are...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Belonging to Nowhere:
<strong> Oh, forgot something:

There are signs forward the light everywhere, we just don't see them, or don't pay enough attention...

There is one of them, for you... your wife saying that you are 'spending more energy on winning her back than ... on fixing yourself'...

It means, don't spend energy convincing her in your change, but change yourself and she'll be convinced!

Don't worry, she WILL know when/if you really are... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks BTN...
But I wonder if her capacity to observe my change and believe in it has been ruined for good by this latest lie. I promised her for a month I had been totally honest with her, but I lied to her AGAIN.
I don't see how she can ever believe in me again....

I know you love her with all your heart but what kind of person was when the two of you lived together? Be truthful and don't gloss over anything unflattering.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
<strong> I know you love her with all your heart but what kind of person was when the two of you lived together? Be truthful and don't gloss over anything unflattering. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TMCM...I don't understand...what kind of person was I when we lived together, or what kind of person was she?

I was somewhat the same as I am now as far as my love for her, my attention to her, my connection with her. I really do and did love her and treat her wonderfully, and we've always had a very good connection with each other.

But I had secrets. Deep dark secrets. I needed something...more. I had a demon that needed feeding on a regular basis, and the more it got fed, the more out of control it got.
This ego lead to my A's, but honestly, it lead to lying in more areas than that. I never lied about my love or care for her, nor am I now, but I found myself lying about little things even, things that made me seem more important or more lovable or more exciting. I have to get into all that with IC, I think.

Her?
She was great. We rarely if ever actually fought. We could spend days and weeks together and never get on each other's nerves.
But..
She's a different person from me, more cynical, more negative, more pessimisstic, and I tend to be a bit Pollyana-ish (hence my holding on to hope while she's screaming DV at me). And sometimes she made me sad, scared, upset. But it never lasted long and she always came back around to being her loving self.

I thought, and so did everyone else, that we had a fabulous and loving R and M and were true partners. But we had these...secrets. Her crime was that she started to grow away from me and had an A as a result, not the best solution but the one she chose.
My crime was that I allowed my deep-seated psychological issues to turn me into a philanderer and also violate my vows and love for her.

She just called...said she smashed one of my musical instruments and cut up all my clothes that were left in the house <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
But she sobbed, said she hates me about 7 times, and begged me to give her back the time she spent with me, said she is going to start a new life with OM or maybe not with him, that there is no US left.
I've heard words like that before, and I can sense there is still a lot of love in her, but I'm starting to think I've done TOO MUCH damage.

VnusMars,

I have to be honest with you. As a spouse of a man who was a serial cheater (I could PROVE 13 A's, and there were probably more that he just didn't tell me about), your story has totally hit a nerve with me. I *AM* your wife, and I have to tell you that in my opinion, the safest place she can be right now is all the way across the country from you.

I realize that you think you are "working on yourself" and you won't fall into this again, but at this point if I were your W I'd say, "I care for ya but I don't believe ya. Come talk to me when you have been completely EA and PA free for at least two years!!" Until then, if I were your wife I would consider all your talk as hot air and empty promises. I need MINIMUM of two years in daily SAA or SLAA meetings--two years of therapy to identify your ego problem and your temptations--two years of POLICING your own temptations and proving to me via complete honesty and ACTIONS that you are serious. Before two years, I would basically harden my heart and turn you away.

Here's a parable to explain why:

In the beginning of your M, your W may have had some inkling about your character, but she probably made excuses for the red flags such as, "Oh he's just flirty!" or "Oh he just soaks up admiration" but regarding YOU and HER, it was different and special. I can't recall exactly which one was the first OW she discovered or was told about, but that first one...that first realization that it ISN'T different and special between you and her--that is like a nuclear bomb going off in her hands as she held it up to look at it. Mortal wound.

Still...she's brave and strong and somehow she manages to survive. She's lost an eye, most of her face is burned off, lost an arm , lost her heart...but she's alive. Okay. She mourns the loss of her beauty and her face and her hair. Now she's a scarred, ugly mess in her own self-image...but she's alive. And she just starts to recover a bit and the scars are starting to heal a bit, and ANOTHER bomb goes off in her face!! (If I remember correctly, it was two or three at once that she was hit with, right?)

All her scars are now TORTURED, and her flesh is completely torn off and burned. Every nerve is exposed and sensitive to the slightest breeze. She lost both her legs, her hand, her face can't even BE reconstructed...and this time she seriously isn't sure if she even CAN recover. This might kill her. She gets a virus because she has no skin and no defense, and it almost kills her. She has to endure daily salt baths to cleanse her burns. Most of the time she just wants to die.

Ever time she sees something that is metal or shiny, part of her mind SCREAMS!! IT MIGHT BE ANOTHER BOMB!!!! Part of her mind flashes back to the first nuclear bomb, and the second round of three bombs. Another part of her mind flashes all the mourning and loss and pain she's been through. And SHE FREAKS OUT!!!! even if only the metallic side of a chewing gum wrapper. Her mind relives it ALL. She's jumpy...suspicious...exhausted...hurting...

She tells you, "I can not survive another bomb. If you have hidden another bomb somewhere, tell me so I can diffuse it and it won't hurt me anymore than I already am." She definately has PTSD and does not feel safe, but as time goes on and there aren't any other bombs and she starts to heal a little tiny bit--she starts to make tiny moves of progress.

THEN THE BOMB TONIGHT.

It's over. That's it. There is no more left that she can afford to have blown off, and she asked you to keep her safe and you didn't.

Can you comprehend this parable?

*****

VnusMars, not only do you have to convince her that you're healed and changed and would never do this to her again--you have to BE healed and changed and NEVER DO THIS TO HER AGAIN. Yet you keep doing it to her.

That's why, if I were in your W's shoes, the safest place to be is across the country from you. I know this is going to sound harsh and blaming...after all, at this moment she is in a PA of her own...but take personal responsibility man! YOU were involved in so many affairs that it cost you your marriage and you irrepairably destroyed the one you claim to love! If you do truly love her, stop focusing on HER and convincing her you are "cured" and start focusing on YOURSELF and your own ego-issues. Go to SAA or SLAA. Be sexually sober. And after TWO YEARS of complete sobriety without one backslide--then go look her up and let your LIFE and ACTIONS prove you are changed.


CJ

P.S. Please bear in mind, this really did hit a nerve with me. I tried to be honest and hold no punches, but not totally smack ya with an 8X8. I realize it stings, but your choices have a natural consequence that stings.

FNCJ...

Yes...I understand...and as hard as it is for me to accept, I think you're right in the sense that she DOES need to have time totally away from me to heal and grow.
I don't know if we need 2 years...I don't know if we need 2000 miles...but we do need something.

I HAVE set off too many bombs in her face.
The worst part of it is...
I get to live in a new place with no memories, but she is still living in that house with all of our memories of the last few years, and all the memories of these past few months. I wish like he11 I could get her out of there, but our lease isn't up until April 2005.

And things were going better...but I guess it would've been temporary since I was still hiding one more secret.

I can only hope that in the months to come with no more bombs she will feel better. Right now, I'm more concerned with her getting back to normal than I am with her taking me back.

I still don't 100% know why I hid this one from her...it was so long ago and really was a ONS to boot...but it certainly triggered a firestorm, didn't it?...

<small>[ October 20, 2004, 01:14 AM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by VnusMars:
<strong> FNCJ... Yes...I understand...and as hard as it is for me to accept, I think you're right in the sense that she DOES need to have time totally away from me to heal and grow.
I don't know if we need 2 years...I don't know if we need 2000 miles...but we do need something.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I realize this is entirely my own bias, but there's a reason why it needs to be years, and not just a few months or "seeing progress." My exH used to pull the "but I'm making progress...do I have to be completely cured before you'll take me back" trick, and of course I loved him and gave him another chance. Within a short time, he'd be back to his old habits and refusing to go to meetings or counseling--right back to breaking my heart again.

So, yeah. It will probably be YEARS before she recovers enough from her co-dependence and you recover from your sex/love addiction to be healthy for her. Think of it this way...you may work VERY hard and be ready sooner, but she would be unwise and unhealthy to take you back without a long, long, Loooooooooong time of proof. If she did take you back kinda quickly, it would be a sure sign that her self-worth is still in the toilet and she has recovered enough yet.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Right now, I'm more concerned with her getting back to normal than I am with her taking me back. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good. She may never ever feel safe enough to take you back--especially if you don't put in the years...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I still don't 100% know why I hid this one from her...it was so long ago and really was a ONS to boot...but it certainly triggered a firestorm, didn't it?... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well this is my own opinion, but I think this would be an excellent thing to explore with your counselor--why you hid this one from her. It seemed relatively insignificant, and yet it must have been significant somehow because you kept it.

VnusMars, just so you know, my exH worked in restaurants as a corporate trainer. He very much enjoyed the awe and admiration of the waitresses and cashiers at the new restaurants he opened, because he said they made him feel "like a god." The waitresses and cashiers (even some asst. mgrs) pursued him, complimented him, flirted with him, and used their feminine wiles to boost his ego...and he couldn't resist. That I can tell, there were ONS's across the country at pretty much every site he opened--and like I said, 13 that I can DOCUMENT.

I bring this up because it dawns on me that there are LOTS of common threads: you two both had LOTS of traveling...lots of adoring women...lots of opportunity to get away with it...etc. It also sounds like you two both had some sort of inner instinct to have your ego stroked by women pursuing you and being wanted. It seems like it has something to do with loving yourself.

Oh, I don't know. How about this. You're not alone. I don't judge you. Personally, I still love my exH and wish he valued me enough to work on his issues--he just doesn't. I also wish, now that we are D'd, that he'd love himself enough to learn how to have an intimate relationship with ONE woman, without jumping into bed.

Sigh.

Late nite ramblings I guess. Being a BS SUCKS!!!


CJ

But I wonder if her capacity to observe my change and believe in it has been ruined for good by this latest lie. I promised her for a month I had been totally honest with her, but I lied to her AGAIN.

Vnus WHY? You still didn't offer this info, you were forced to tell her. CJ makes very good sense, especially with her parable of how your wife has been damaged. She can't trust herself, her perception of reality or you. Lies destroy people, it is not the infidelity so much, but the lies.

It makes it worse that you were a loving husband and you had a good marriage. Like a thief that comes in the night with no warning.

My advice is going to change now also. Now you do whatever she needs for you to do, so that she can heal and trust again. And I don't mean just you. You be a man who truly is good, and help repair the damage that YOU have done to her. And in helping her heal, putting your desire to have her back on hold, you will help heal yourself. Give her whatever it is she needs to regain her sanity, once she has a chance to figure that out.

Vnus, Vnus, Vnus! You make sure there is nothing in your life that you ever have to lie about again. If you are going to have to lie about it...DON"T DO IT. If it means spending all your free time at church, working with a childrens program, working at a soup kitchen. Whatever it takes, you do it.

She needs a support group like MB.

venus----step one.....realize normal is gone forever for your wife...she will never be "normal" again. not in the way you want. you destroyed that. once you realize this maybe you can move in a more healing direction.

<small>[ October 20, 2004, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: new jersey ]</small>

VM,

One thing no one has commented on is the fact that your current marriage began as an affair. Right off the bat, that severely impacts the viability of your marriage. This pattern of cheating began long before your wife was ever in the picture and I'm surprised that she didn't realize at that time that if you would do it "with" her, you would do it "to" her. Maybe she did, but her expectations and priorities have changed with age. Now she's at the point in her life where she's thinking about having children and that means she's got to think of how all that occurs will affect more than just herself and whether you are really "family man" material or the kind of man she wants to grow old with.

There aren't words that exist in any language that will demonstrate that you are a better man....only consistent action OVER TIME can ever do that. She can't forgive you or consider living her life with you until you can demonstrate that she will be emotionally and physically safe (by physical I mean her health...not that you are violent).

I think that you are right....this latest admission of an affair that involved emotion is new hurtful ground for her and is likely to impact her in a way that the sexual affairs didn't. In that regard, she always considered herself "special" to you....that she had your "heart". I suspect it has rocked her world in a way that the other affairs did not. She has clung to the belief that even though you had multiple affairs that they meant nothing...that was the only way she could justify continuing to work on this marriage. You have shattered that slender thread of hope and my guess is that she will have a very hard time recovering from that.

Sometimes, it takes a massive loss to make the kind of fundamental shifts in thinking that make someone a better person. I feel as though this could be that kind of life changing event for you...but like your wife....I have deep doubts and fears that your insatiable ego can ever be fed sufficiently to commit to one woman. If her IC is at all protective of your wife...he/she will tell her to run as fast as she can and get as far away from you as possible. Your wife is no angel...neither am I or anyone else. You aren't a horrible person...but you aren't husband material right now and until you can demonstrate that you are and deal with your own issues and insecurities...the kindest thing you could do is to let your wife heal.

VM...change your life. The history you describe is the history of a sexual addict or a narcissist. You have led your life with "entitlement" as if the rules don't apply to you....and I have no doubt that if your wife had not had an affair, or you had not faced the threat of losing her, that you would be still having affairs now. It isn't like you reached some catharsis and made a decision on your own...that's why NOW you must change your life...NOT to get your wife back, but BECAUSE you want to be a better man for YOU. That is what she must see...and nothing else will really do. She has to see what your motivation is when SHE is out of the picture...then and only then, will your actions really count. Right now, they only appear like an effort to win her back...a response to negative consequences..not real growth.

I don't know if your wife can forgive you. I don't know if she can recover from this latest realization. But I do know that if she can....it will be because you can demonstrate consistently over time that you are a different person, with different priorities. CJs estimate of two years is not far off I think. Trust takes years to build and seconds to destroy. A friend of mine says "trust is paycheck, not the lottery".

VM,

I posted on your other thread...and I had actually said that I *felt* that you had not told her everything and that she probably knew it. I did edit that part out because I was concerned that I would be called out for a DJ. So, it doesn't surprise me that it was true.

I would imagine that she is thinking that you are incapable of telling the truth...still. You lied to her yet again..and continued to lie. It has NOTHING to do with what she is doing right now. You are not making any headway with her because YOU are continuing to lie to her, and only YOU can change that.

Don't let what she is doing give you license to behave badly (as in not being truthful).

Also, star*fish is right about your marriage starting from an affair. The marriage did not begin with truth and honor...it did not have truth and honor after it started (your multiple affairs)...and it STILL isn't (your continuing lies and HER infidelity now).

You might have to accept that you saw the light just a little too late.

In all honesty, I would be hesitant to ever trust a word you ever said to me again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

JMHO
committed

As I said in VnusMars other thread, the acid test will be if this new revelation causes her to end all contact with VM for good and she files for divorce. Just as his WW should not beleive WM about changing his ways, VM should not beleive anything that comes out of her foggy mouth either. Until the divorce becomes finalized, the marriage is NOT over. BOTH have to do a lot of work before there is any chance of mutual trust.

A lot of what said to VM is right on the money but it can be equally said to his WW. Her denial that what she is doing is wrong shows how much she is into herself. Remember that her affair started without knowledge of his ONS. I highly doubt that she would feel differently if VM had no ONS to use against him. As Dr Robert Huitzenga has said, there are many WS that beleive that only THEY have the right to have an affair and it looks like WM's WW is one of them.