I tried to reply earlier but the site went down and I had to go see my IC. I'm back at the office for a bit, waaaay behind on work so I'm going to keep this short...

I'm very surprised my W is here. Actually, I'm even more surprised that she signed up for a login, only necessary if she feels like posting and not just lurking.
I didn't tell her the name of this site on the recommendation from others that I wait to show her MB until she had recovered some and was more inclined to rebuild, so she'd be in a better frame of mind to objectively listen to what's being said.
And I haven't heard from her since she signed up either.

So...to TheWifeofVnusMars (TWoVM?), my lovely wife ...
I'm glad you're here. I hope it's a positive thing for you and helps in some way. This place has helped me answer my own questions on more than a few occasions...very rarely has someone said something to me that I didn't already feel was true in my heart.

And if you read my posts (duh, of course you will), I hope you can get a glimpse into what it is I truly want and truly believe and truly feel. As 2Long stated above, I have bared my soul to strangers and appreciate the feedback they've given me.

We are ALL destroyed here, in one way or the other <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Stick around, everyone here is pretty honest. And please feel free to post anything and everything you're feeling.

VM,

Also not to jump on your case here. But, your marital tactics go waaaaay back. Your current W is the OW for your first W, per your first post. You have more changing to do than you may realize. And so does your W.

Talk to your IC about everything - no lies of omission anything there either, OK? The whole truth is always for the best (as you are finding out).

Good luck,

T

You have recieved some excellent advice here. I just wanted to say though, you can not heal in one month what took years to destroy. I mean that for u, not your marriage, although it would work for that too. However many years it took u to get in the frame of mind to have an affair, have the affair, and end the affair it will take you just as long to get to the point where u are healed, no more affairs, no more lies or ego boosting. I believe with most affairs it takes the infidel a while to stop lying. Like they don't even realise they are lying till like just 2 days ago u just realised you had one more affair to confess. Ommiting, is lying. I think though that u are making great progress, at least compared to my H sluggish start. Keep up the progress. U are right you must do it for yourself, not for anyone.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Thos:
<strong> VM,

Also not to jump on your case here. But, your marital tactics go waaaaay back. Your current W is the OW for your first W, per your first post. You have more changing to do than you may realize. And so does your W.

Talk to your IC about everything - no lies of omission anything there either, OK? The whole truth is always for the best (as you are finding out).

Good luck,

T </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">VnM,
I've been thinking about your sitch off and on since yesterday and I must say this... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

In my most humble, in no way a psychiatrist or a marriage counselor opinion I'd say to resolve your current M issues you must resolve your past M issues. Have you ever made amends with the woman you left to be with your current W? I personally think this is crucial for claiming your new found convictions and ALWAYS standing behind those convictions. I’m not saying this to be a stickler, nor am I saying this because I like to live in the past and I think everyone else should as well. I have been dealing with the issue of cleaning my conscience, owning up for my actions etc…When D-day hit with my W one of my motivating reasons for hanging in there with my M was to clear my own conscience. If I wanted a divorce there is absolutely no one who could say I didn’t deserve one. Heck, my W basically threw me out 5 years ago when she started falling for OM, I had to rebuild my life from the bottom up which is no picnic. After 2 years of back and forth with my W we decided to reconcile with the understanding that all ties from OP be cut, my W didn’t live up to that agreement instead shortly after our reconciliation my W began again seeing OM. My W charade lasted for 2 years until June which is my D-day as far as MB is concerned. So as you can see if I had decided to throw in the proverbial towel it would’ve been justified, but then again humans can justify most any action right? I do have a point trust me. My point is:
I decided to do everything in my power to salvage my M because I wanted to own up for my hand in the demise of my M.
I decided to do everything in my power to salvage my M because I didn’t want to have any guilt if/when I decided to move on.
I decided to do everything in my power to salvage my M because I wanted to feel that I deserved happiness and NO I DON’T think anyone deserves misery or pain in their relationships, but I do feel in the golden rules (do unto others, you reap what you sow…etc)

I hope you understand what I’m trying to communicate. I don’t think ANY M will have a bright future if it’s built on the remains of former spouses emotionally battered carcass. I’m just FM one guy, but I believe setting things right with my W regardless to how this turns out will greatly improve the chances of my next relationship being a happy one, not to mention, WHEREVER WE GO; THERE WE ARE! So, I would first make amends with the ex S or W that you were with when you met and began dating your current W. I don’t mean doing anything that crosses the line or offers her any hint of reconciliation, I mean just making sure she understands that you regret how you went about things, you regret your actions, and you regret cheating on her not because you want to rewind time and be with her again, but because you want to be a better man and some parts of your past shame you. I believe your W may never admit it, but how the 2 of you got together must play on her mind at least from time to time. I have a feeling your W has put up with these A’s for so long because she may feel she deserves pain since she stole another womans H or man? I don’t know if I’m right about that assumption, I can just see it being a possibility. Like I said I’m no psychiatrist, no marriage counselor, no relationship coach just one guy who’s made a lot of mistakes with some news to report…

Okay VnM I hope you are taking all of this in because I think it’s important that you honestly examine how your R started and how the effects of that on its future. The MB principles have some very valuable info on the success rate of M’s that start as A’s. I think there’s still hope but only if you deal with your past, acknowledge it, take your lumps and then start working in that new frame of mind. I don’t think there’s hope if you and your W sidestep these major issues. I could be way off base and its possible you folks are already dealing with this issue in IC. Please remember just because a counselor says it doesn’t make it necessarily the law. I’ve heard of some counselors who do more damage than good. Okay I’m starting to jump around to too many subjects so I’m going to stop here. I hope you catch my meaning friend. I mean you no disrespect but you’ve gotta get rid of the elephants in your past FIRST, then you can start dealing with the elephants in your living room.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Well...here's the latest update:

</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As mentioned above, 2nd D-Day was Tuesday</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yesterday went to see new IC for the first time, he is targeting "compulsive behavior" rather than any true personality disorder</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Left IC to come back to work and BS/WW called (lurking here as TheWifeOfVnusMars)</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mostly was just talk about logistics of apartment, car, insurance, DV, etc. She is going to move in with MIL in MIL's new house at end of Nov, I have to find a way to take care of the apt thru the end of the lease.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MIL interrupted convo to say she had a sick kitty emergency, BS/WW asked me to come help, I raced over</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">False alarm! But...I went back upstairs with BS to talk to her</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We talked and cried ALOT for awhile, mostly about...</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Her A - she still isn't owning up to it 100% as a bad thing to have done</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She didn't talk about OM in terms of the future though</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She needs to move on and start a new life without me, I need to heal</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She still loves me and always will, I will always be her soulmate</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We both cried and sobbed ALOT and held each other, she said she misses me terribly, vice versa</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I told her I am not going to get into any R's with anyone until I'm better, and that I'm waiting for her</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She did say ONE thing that made me realize she has seen some progress in me: "I guess if you were going to slip back into your old ways (seeing OW) you would know it by now, eh?"</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Everytime I bring up possibility of future reconciliation once she's healed and I'm fixed, she's saying "I don't think so" - and my answer is "never say never, just say maybe"</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
At the end of it, she held me tighter than she's held me in MONTHS, and for a very long time, and sobbed, saying "I don't want to let you go."

I replied "you don't have to, we can work on this together."

But she calmed down eventually and said she still needs to move on and start her own life.

It was strange...when I left it seemed like a very FINAL goodbye, even though it really isn't in terms of never seeing/speaking to her again.
We talked about calling each other, and maybe going and having drinks this weekend (Monday is her B-day).

Later that night we were both on MSN Messenger, she initiated with an "R U OK?" and we talked a little more.
This time, though...
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She sent me lots of links to sites dealing with sexual compulsion, addiction, depression</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We talked about that issue for awhile, I can tell she really really really wants to see me get better</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I brought up the possibility of reconciling down the road, when we're both better, she still pushes back on that right now</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lots of reiteration that we're "both losing something very important to us" and "things will never be the same"</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Closed with talk about the kitties and a sweet "I love you"</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
So...a very interesting evening considering the past few weeks especially.

I feel...OK. I'm more devastated in some ways because she DOES seem to be serious about cutting me out of her life, but then I also have to remember that this may be what's necessary for us to work it out later.
And I feel good knowing that her love is still there, that she wants to see me heal as much as I do, that she's giving me some moral support from a distance in my quest to become a better man.

I'm just glad she's pulling herself out of her hole of depression and darkness. I have been SOOO worried about her, it kills me to see the woman I love more than anything suffering so badly, and primarily because of something I did.

Maybe is time progresses she'll lose some of her denial that we can ever work it out, as she sees progress & healing & growth.

<small>[ October 21, 2004, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

VM:

This still doesn't seem hopeless at all 2 ol' 2long. But I do see that you've got a LOT of HARD WORK 2 do before you can even THINK of reconciliation. BOTH of you.

You should drop ALL relationship discussions for the forseeable fu2re. Focus on healing YOUR problems and let your W deal with hers.

By all means take her out for her B-day. Make a light day of it. Don't talk relationships at all. Both of your problems - yours and hers - are very deep and will only drag each of you in2 despair if you get started on them again, because you're 2 close 2 them 2 be able 2 discuss them objectively at this point.

Take your time, and show your love. This can work.

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by VnusMars:
<strong>
I'm just glad she's pulling herself out of her hole of depression and darkness. I have been SOOO worried about her, it kills me to see the woman I love more than anything suffering so badly, and primarily because of something I did.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">VnM,
You are a good man. It's admirable how you learning to prioritize her needs in certain situations. I'm still rooting for you and like so many people here told me,

WHO WE USED TO BE DOESNT MATTER, WHAT MATTERS IS WHO WE ARE TODAY...

Hang Tough!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong> VM:

This still doesn't seem hopeless at all 2 ol' 2long. But I do see that you've got a LOT of HARD WORK 2 do before you can even THINK of reconciliation. BOTH of you.

You should drop ALL relationship discussions for the forseeable fu2re. Focus on healing YOUR problems and let your W deal with hers.

By all means take her out for her B-day. Make a light day of it. Don't talk relationships at all. Both of your problems - yours and hers - are very deep and will only drag each of you in2 despair if you get started on them again, because you're 2 close 2 them 2 be able 2 discuss them objectively at this point.

Take your time, and show your love. This can work.

-ol' 2long </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the vote of confidence 2long -
Yes...actually I tend to think that the "last goodbye" feeling I got last night when I left the house wasn't really "goodbye" to HER, I think it was "goodbye" to the ongoing drama and trauma. It was a goodbye to the way things have been for these few months, for these 8 years, even.

I suppose in retrospect I was saying goodbye to the emotional rollercoaster we've been putting each other and ourselves through for the past 3 months.

She even said "I am mourning the good times" meaning she's finally getting to a point where she can separate the love we shared and the amazing things we did...from the bad things that happened and the lies told. She's starting to see that our M wasn't ALL a big lie, but a sizable chunk of it was.

I'm glad too because that means she's finally healing...and that's important if she ever comes back to me, to remember we had something great that we want back. Why would anyone want to come back to an M that they thought was NOTHING but one big lie?


I will still talk to her, still see her, still be a best friend to her if she needs me for anything...and I'm sure we'll still discuss our issues on one level or another, but not the long sob-fests and "how could you?" discussions, you're right, those will just keep us in pain.

Even our IM discussion last night was less about "how could you do this to me" and more just a talk about our thoughts, issues, plans, etc.


Plan A is still in full effect <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ October 21, 2004, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
WHO WE USED TO BE DOESNT MATTER, WHAT MATTERS IS WHO WE ARE TODAY...
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks FM!
Now...the sooner my W believes in that axiom, the better off we'll be.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ October 21, 2004, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

VM:

"Now...the sooner my W believes in that axiom, the better off we'll be...."

And now that you've said this, let it go. Whether she does what YOU think is right or not, is her business. Give her more space here.

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong> VM:

"Now...the sooner my W believes in that axiom, the better off we'll be...."

And now that you've said this, let it go. Whether she does what YOU think is right or not, is her business. Give her more space here.

-ol' 2long </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh yes, 2long...I know...that's what I'm doing.
I'll hold on to hope until either she comes back or it becomes 100% clear she has no intention of coming back.

Too early to tell, no use in trying to predict the future!

My BS/WW "TheWifeOfVnusMars" just sent me this email (see above for last night's events that lead up to this).

I don't think she'd mind me reprinting it here verbatim, as I think it does a nice job summing up alot of the things I've been saying, she's been saying to me, and others here have been talking about:


I started crying before I even wrote this because my wounds are still so fresh and my pain so great. But I feel compelled to let you honestly know where I am in this whole thing.

I think the most important thing for the two of us is to be separate. I really do because we have so much to deal with in the aftermath of everything. I will be working on the day that I feel peace. Peace from the horrible thing that held our marriage hostage. Today I felt some relief, not because you are gone but because we are not living a lie anymore. I don’t want what we had back as it was poison. I don’t hate you VM because I know you didn’t mean to hurt me with endless affairs just as I didn’t mean to hurt you with my affair. Life is so damn complicated that we as humans try to label everything, to put it in a category because it makes us feel better. The truth is, it was what it was, a marriage in serious trouble….more than I could ever have imagined. But now that part is over….and its time to move on…..

I changed, and I actually CAN remember the time frame when it was happening. There were several mornings in a row, about a year ago or so when I got up and “felt” different. Something was happening and now I know what it was. I certainly didn’t think I was growing away from you, in fact that was the last thing I would have ever thought. Why? Because I loved you just the same (if not more) as I always had. People change but can still love their spouses. The problem is, certain changes can be so fundamental, that they affect the spouse. Meaning, I still loved you with every bone in my body, but I wanted a husband that wanted to be home with me, I wanted a child, and a house…a NORMAL life if you will. I had finally grown up and away from you. When I realized this it was only AFTER I found OM. This was when the true shock had finally set in. I have said this before but I was willing to end my marriage with you due to my changes. You just beat me to the punch. I always thought my marriage was too good to be true. SOMETHING was amiss but I could never figure it out. No more secrets…..

What could we expect starting our marriage off in the way we did? Every single person that found out how we met said, “How will you know he won’t do it to you?” My answer was, “I don’t know but I am taking that chance I guess” That is what I did, I took a chance because I found my soulmate even though it wasn’t under the best circumstances. Who would have rejected what one believes is their perfect partner just because he/she was unhappy in another marriage? I believed in us but mostly I believed in you. I don’t regret my time with you VM. Some of the best memories of my life were with you. It’s a part of MY life and I learned and grew in our marriage and became the person I am today….but with wonderful things comes tragedy…sometimes things are not as they appear. I always had a part of me that worried about this..hence never changing my last name, never mixing our finances, buying a home…children. It’s scary, but I always felt that somewhere down the line you would destroy me. This fear was confirmed by your first affair early in our marriage. I should have known then but I believed…or at least I wanted to.

I don’t know if we are beyond repair. It seems so at this point. But time will dictate who we will be and what we will become. Each day a little of the pain goes away and what is left will be the true answer.

So with that said, I will work everyday to heal my wounds and become a better person in light of this tragedy… I will work on my anger…and somewhere find in my heart to forgive you and learn from my mistakes….to find peace with you and myself. Hopefully you can forgive me someday because I really never stopped loving you, I just went down a different road then you and just weren’t looking at the time. Now you at the fork in the road VM, you can choose the road to recovery or you can choose the same road you have been on for so many years. I believe that if you truly want to change, you WILL. Not because you think we have hope someday but because you don’t want to be that monster anymore; the monster that stole your life and soul away. It will be up to you to dig in the deepest parts of your psyche to find the good part of VM because I KNOW he is in there somewhere. I have seen him before. Just do your best and don’t give up. We will come out of this someday; I promise….whether we are together or not we will both be better people and the biggest benefit will be to ourselves. Only then can we share those benefits with others…


Just remember one thing…..

I love you VM…you will always be my best friend and soulmate…no matter where my life takes me. How fortunate to be able to even say that….

TWOVM


Wow. She is something else, ain't she? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

<small>[ October 21, 2004, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

VM:

That WAS a beautiful letter from TWOVM. You should consider yourself BLESSED 2 have been loved by someone who CAN be that truthful with you about how SHE FEELS.

TWOVM: I saw you logged in this morning. I hope you continue 2 lurk here, even post some of your own thoughts. You might want 2 start your own thread in support of your own recovery, though. That might be less painful than posting here.

I want 2 comment on something you said. Please don't take this as any kind of attack on you as a person, though:

"When I realized this it was only AFTER I found OM."

You should realize that this is a very common thing for a WAYWARD spouse 2 say. Think about it. How much of your "realization" is clouded by your relationship with the OM? It can't be a trivial amount, and might be extremely significant.

2 heal fully as an emotionally healthy individual, you should separate yourself from BOTH men. After all, the statement you heard about VM "if he cheated with you, he'll cheat on you" applies 2 the OM as well... ...and yourself. You know this all 2 be true. And I'm not saying this 2 hurt you at all. You will find MANY former wayward spouses post 2 marriage builders. I have great respect for those that do. I've learned a TREMENDOUS amount of wisdom from these people.

VM and TWOVM. You 2 have a GIFT here. The gift of HONESTY with one another, right NOW, that a great many of the people here do not have (I found out about my W's 12 year long affair 33 months ago, and we're STILL slowly working on recovery). Don't underestimate that, okay? Make me proud of you 2 as individuals!

And always remember that NOT recovering is not a healthy option. And recovery is within and for each of you as individuals. Reconciling and rebuilding the M is a separate issue that must be preceded by individual recovery and growth.

take care, you're good people.

-ol' 2long

TWOVM -

I wanted to say something to you too, but out of respect for ole 2long (and yeah he is ole!), I wanted to wait until he welcomed you. Since he did voice his desire to be the first one, and he is a senior member, so I opted to respect that.

Now I just want to say ditto what 2long said.

You will receive a warm welcome here and support which you probably desperately need right now. I am with someone who was a master liar and we are now in recovery, not back together but dating and developing a much better relationship, one based on honesty. But his lies almost killed me, and I have an inkling of your inner turmoil. It is hard, very, very hard to overcome the lieing. Lies are so very destructive. Way worse than the actual infidelity in my opinion.

But there is hope, and I hope you stay here and post.

Hugs to you TWOVM, you have been through more than anyone should ever have to endure, but you will heal and be happy again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

weaver

Well, I am going to have my say here since this is this is the first time I can speak for myself. ol 2' long I can understand what you are saying here but let me tell you that you need not place your recovery template over my situation. I know you went and are going through your own hell but keep in mind that you are in that "mission" mode. What I mean by that is it similar to the new vegetarian or new religous person. You tend to think "you know" what is right for everyone. I don't take what you said personally because you would be saying it to anybody regardless of who they are or situation and that my friend is the problem. You are broad brushing... and for the record, the meteorlogical terms such as FOG is not always applicable. It has its place and time...yes. But why is anger and hatred talk have to be fog?? Its a very REAL and NATURAL emotion and because it tends to be negative doesn't mean that person doesn't know what they are saying. Or...because it's directed at the offending spouse means that it must be FOG?

I also understand that I met VnusMars under the rock of infidelity. I was naieve and didn't know that it could lead to more disasters down the road. I don't believe it MEANS that it would be a disaster..there are many relationships that start off "clean" so to speak and end up worse. In a perfect world...NOBODY would be attached when they meet potential partners. Be gung ho in your own situation but please be careful when giving out advice. People ALWAYS give advice coming from their own experiences and agendas.

I'm going to edit my post and save it for later so my W can speak...and change the subject line so everyone that's been waiting for her to say something can see!

<small>[ October 21, 2004, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

TWOVM -

Now that was just plain rude.

Direct your anger at the person you are angry at, not the person trying to be supportive. But I will let 2long speak for himself.


weaver

TWOVM:

First, WELCOME!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'll say it again: You 2 have a great oppor2nity here, regardless of whether you stay 2gether or not. My W has been invited 2 read what I write here on more than one occasion, and she hasn't been interested. She hasn't been interested, by the way, because she shares the view you just expressed. She even said, early on, that "MB is a bunch of Christians that will ultimately try 2 convert you 2 share their fundamentalist beliefs." I'm an atheist, and that hasn't happened. What HAS happened, though, is that I've become very spiri2al during my "journey" since D-day, 33 months ago. Still an atheist, though <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I suppose that, lately, my W still thinks my thinking has been influenced by my participation here. She said, just 2 months ago, that my coaching with Penny Tupy ( www.saveyourmarriagecentral.com ), who was trained by Dr. Willard Harley, author of Marriage Builders, was "insulting." She won't participate in marriage counseling with me, though we tried it at our HMO for a few months after D-day. But she is in individual counseling and we are slowly working on recovery. By comparison, the dialog that you and VM are having is truly miraculous, regardless of how good or bad it feels for you right now.

"Well, I am going to have my say here since this is this is the first time I can speak for myself."

Again, WELCOME. The beauty of a site like this is that our anonymity remains intact. That protects you and me from being directly affected by one another, but gives us the oppor2nity 2 find a way 2 communicate in meaningful, supportive ways. I will say this up front. Take what I say any way you want. "Use" the thoughts that you agree with, and feel free 2 toss the rest. I'd like 2 be helpful, but I'll need your help in order 2 do that. I'm sure others here can speak for themselves, but you'll quickly find that we all have each other's best interest at heart.

"ol 2' long I can understand what you are saying here but let me tell you that you need not place your recovery template over my situation."

Well, it's not really my template. If you go 2 the home page and read the articles, you'll see where the thoughts expressed here come from. All our particular si2ations are unique, but you will quickly realize, if you read here for a while or talk 2 a pro-marriage counselor much, that there are many common aspects 2 all affairs.

"I know you went and are going through your own hell but keep in mind that you are in that "mission" mode."

Well, I WENT through a good year of hell, then another year and a half of purgatory or something like that, before I got 2 the state where I am now - I have transformed myself in2 a better husband, by eliminating many of the bad habits and behaviors I had before finding out about my W's A. I am on a mission, admittedly, but it's a mission 2 save my M and keep my family 2gether, not affect someone else's. Whether you should save your marriage or not is up 2 you 2 decide, for YOURSELF. I post 2 threads like this one for somewhat selfish reasons - I LEARN something more each time I do, each time I get feedback from someone here about how they might apply "my read" of MB methods 2 their own sitch. And I take what I learn and try it in my own life. Maybe I succeed, maybe I fail. You tell me.

"What I mean by that is it similar to the new vegetarian or new religous person."

I always wanted one of those T-shirts that says "Sacred cows make righteous hamburgers" but decided that I might offend someone if I wore it outdoors. I'm not a vegetarian, but one of my sisters is. I try not 2 offend her 2 often. And like I said above, I'm not religious, but I am spiri2al. I am fanatical about marriage, though. I'll freely admit that. I am NOT voting for Dubya, though. I don't believe that we should turn the Consti2tion of the United States in2 a dictionary.

"You tend to think "you know" what is right for everyone."

I can come across that way sometimes. I'm sorry. I certainly don't mean 2. As for whether I believe it 2 be true or not? No. I KNOW for a FACT that I don't know what is right for everyone. Heck, I don't always know what's right for ME. I do know what I've learned here and by LIVING my life - good and bad parts of it at the same time. Bad? I don't know FOR CERTAIN that my W would NOT be better off with Rat Meat (my nickname for her OM) than with me and her family. I don't know for certain that they're not still in contact. Good? My beautiful, intelligent, outgoing daughter is getting married in March. That brings me great joy. My W and I saw her trying on her wedding gown a month or so ago. She was STUNNING.

"I don't take what you said personally because you would be saying it to anybody regardless of who they are or situation and that my friend is the problem. You are broad brushing..."

I am, aren't I? Broad brushing does apply, 2 some degree, in vir2ally every aspect of life, wouldn't you agree?

"and for the record, the meteorlogical terms such as FOG is not always applicable."

I'm not so good with meteorology - I'm a geologist. And where *I* do my geology, there hasn't been a whole lot of meteorology in a good 3.8 billion years. There are fogs, though... ...sorry, I digress (but people here will tell you that I do that often).

"It has its place and time...yes. But why is anger and hatred talk have to be fog??"

You may be interested in a thread on Penny Tupy's discussion forum recently that talks about betrayed spouses' fog. It's a good read, if you're interested:
http://saveyourmarriagecentral.info...44008616&f=303002716&m=492109212

Recognize, though, that anger is a choice, it's not something someone else "makes you". It is an emotion you choose. It is a REACTION, not a RESPONSE 2 something you may perceive someone DID 2 you. And hate, thankfully, is NOT the opposite of love, indifference is. ...hope I don't sound 2 much like a textbook. But if I do, it's because there are a lot of textbooks out there that sound like that. And a lot of good reasons that they do.

"Its a very REAL and NATURAL emotion and because it tends to be negative doesn't mean that person doesn't know what they are saying. Or...because it's directed at the offending spouse means that it must be FOG?"

Again, I urge you 2 read about the betrayed spouse's fog at the thread above. Let me know what you think of it, okay?

"I also understand that I met VnusMars under the rock of infidelity. I was naieve and didn't know that it could lead to more disasters down the road. I don't believe it MEANS that it would be a disaster..there are many relationships that start off "clean" so to speak and end up worse."

You are correct. Statistically (and it's pretty unusual for a geologist 2 2uote statistics, you know), something like 80% of all marriages are subjected 2 infidelity. That's a staggering number. But what does that say about humanity as a whole, or YOU as an individual (or me, for that matter)? I think it says we're all pretty much human. What should we DO about it? Well, thankfully a lot of people have become professional therapists and marriage coaches because of it. But why do they get involved? You will find that MOST of them do it not because they want 2 delve in2 someone's dirt because it's intriguing or fodder for a TV movie script or seedy romance novel, but because they want 2 2rn a very negative, painful time in these peoples' lives (both betrayed and wayward spouse) in2 an oppor2nity for personal growth and marital recovery. Most people who've recovered from infidelity (and, statistically, MOST married couples subjected 2 infidelity choose recovery over divorce) will tell you that their marriage is better than it ever was before the affair.

Also, statistically, relationships born from an affair have about a 5% chance of lasting past 5 years. And STILL, I think most people here would like 2 see you and VM succeed and beat those odds some more. But it's your choice, not ours. We can only offer advice. And, sarcastically, I've been known 2 say "the best advice I can give you is 2 never take advice". And when I say that in jest, I really do mean that you do have 2 take what you hear - here or anywhere in your life - and make your own decisions as how you want 2 live.

"In a perfect world...NOBODY would be attached when they meet potential partners."

That's an interesting thought. If I'm hearing you right, I think it's expressing the idea that "real" love is not romance or infa2ation, it's more "substantial" than that. I am fond of the term "unconditional love", which the Harleys and Penny Tupy prefer people stay away from in dealing with saving marriages. I disagree with most people's definition of unconditional love. I think of it as what the Harleys describe as the "deep caring love" that takes years 2 develop in a marriage, or the love you feel 2ward your kids. One of our former MBers, Spacecase, formed a website that covers this subject and many others. If you're interested, it's www.iloveulove.com .

"Be gung ho in your own situation but please be careful when giving out advice. People ALWAYS give advice coming from their own experiences and agendas."

Very true. I will be careful.

best,
-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
<strong> TWOVM -

Now that was just plain rude.

Direct your anger at the person you are angry at, not the person trying to be supportive. But I will let 2long speak for himself.


weaver </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ditto... I was like this ---> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I still want to say "Welcome" to TWOVM .... This place can offer a lot of help and support, it you let it.

Pep

Why is it so rude? You think this is the first time I have read Ol2long's posts??? Quite the contrary...some of his posts alarm me.

Give me the benefit of the doubt that I can at least decipher my anger between my husband and a stranger posting on a board. Besides, if you read my VERY PRIVATE letter to my husband you will see that I am dealing with that anger quite well. Actually, at this moment I am more angry by some of the postings I see on this board then my husband. Don't get me wrong, I believe this board is wonderful and probably does help alot of people but I think for my husbands issues he may need a different board...for whatever is going on with him? Sexual addiction? Compulsion? Not a doctor....

I admire my husband for being here though..it shows he wants to be a better person...but it's going to take alot more than stating he wants to be a better person.....he will have to actually do it. I believe he has a TON of work to do..I don't think it's insurmountable by any means...just very daunting. I lost my soulmate and whether we ever work out--it doesn't matter, I care enough about him to be happier one day no matter what.

Just remember, there are always TWO sides to every story...many a nights I was sleeping in my bed waiting for my husband to come home...and he was with a woman. It will take a VERY long time to heal from that...maybe this board is better for people who actually want to rebuild...??