vm2tw:

"I have noticed that MB seems to be connected somehow to the Christian thing but that is not what necessarily bothers me about MB. For the record, Im an atheist too."

Like JL said, it's not a Christian site. I ac2ually thought it was more than JL indicates, but that may be based on my initial trepidation at coming here when I *thought* I was, perhaps, the only atheist here. I'm not. There are many others.

"People tend to go that route when they go through something traumatic--BTW-have you been to Sedona, Arizona? You would like it."

Which route? Atheism? Or spiri2ality? No matter. I found my own spiri2al growth, after finding about my W's A, felt rather "self-contrived" at first, but now I realize it's probably really a necessary part of my personal growth, which included being raised as a Christian Scientist, quitting church al2ther about 30 years ago, going through a period of antagonism against organized religions as a whole, then 2 a period of tolerance, followed by a more pleasant time of compassion for my fellow women and men, and finally through this spurt of rapid growth as a "spiri2al atheist". The way I figure it, we're all down here - religious people, scientists, agnostics and atheists - 2 figure $h!+ out. And the reward truly is in the journey.

And yes, I've been 2 Sedona a number of times. Love the red rock canyons! Good, solid Colorado Plateau geology. Lots of my favorite sedimentary rocks!

"I am leary of anything that is "scripted"."

My W is 2. But be aprised: This site and others like it might SEEM "scripted", after all, the MB "methods" are methods. But you will quickly find, as you open communication with those who post here regularly, but particularly if you work with either Steve Harley or Jennifer Harley Chalmers, of this website, or Penny Tupy, you will quickly lose this impression of "scripted". These people will think very quickly on their feet and customize a "plan" for your particulars. If you let them. And don't feel like you have 2 do anything of the sort. My W isn't interested, and I still love her anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

"I don't mind a guide every now and again (ie counseling) but I worry that people want something or someone to do the thinking for them."

This is common. No professional should be telling their clients what 2 do, and I don't think they do - the good ones, that is. They help YOU 2 figure out what you should choose 2 do yourself, for yourself, by suggesting things that you might not otherwise think of.

"Not being able to make one move without consulting a website just worries me ."

As it should. We're not professionals. The Harleys and Penny are, though. I won't say that there aren't people on her who will give advice as if you should follow it by rote, but I think that, for the most part, such advice is usually that someone at the "end of their rope", about 2 "lose it", or about 2 fly off the handle and just file for DV or do something rash (we HAVE had people describe their contemplations of suicide), do NOTHING before calming down and speaking 2 their counselor or coach. There still may be the occasional suggestion that you "toss the so-and-so 2 the curb". After all, there are TENS OF THOUSANDS of members here (look at your own member number), and it isn't possible for the moderators 2 catch every "wayward" bit of advice. Thankfully, "dangerous suggestions" are pretty rare, and most people with a computer and minimal typing skills are intelligent enough 2 think for themselves. Like you, for instance.

"Thank you...we are a special couple I believe. But honestly, it bothers me that you know about our private dialogs..."

And if it bothers you that much, I will ask that VM consider editing them out of his posts (he can do that). But like JL, I found your letter eloquent, intelligent, and very much from the heart. Inspiring! You and he ARE a special couple. One worth trying 2 save, in my very, very humble opinion. I was "attracted" 2 VMs early threads by his intelligence and evidence of his sincere remorse for his adultery. Since then, I continue 2 find personal rewards for me by communicating with him here.

"'Take what I say any way you want. "Use" the thoughts that you agree with, and feel free 2 toss the rest.'

Thank you but I already do this. Maybe this is why I am considered relatively smart?"

One of the reasons, certainly.

"I don't think I can help you to help me. That is why I pay big bucks to a professional. But its the thought that counts."

You may surprise yourself. Your perspective has already been of help 2 me. Thank you.

"Actually in the end, we all have our own best interest at heart."

And, in the end, we all have only ourselves in which we can affect change. Not those around us. Not even those we're married 2. So it isn't selfish 2 address your best interests, it's all you really can do. But I like 2 quote the Moody Blues regarding making choices: "Do what makes you happy, do what you know is right". Not even what you THINK is right. I love that because there's implied responsibility 2 figure out what really IS right. Taking responsibility for one's own choices, good or bad, is LIBERATING.

"Once again...a template??"

I defer 2 JL's much better description of the methods used here. Template? If you wish. Does that bother you? Again, take what you agree with and don't what you don't.

"'All our particular si2ations are unique, but you will quickly realize, if you read here for a while or talk 2 a pro-marriage counselor much, that there are many common aspects 2 all affairs.'

Yes, but not common enough for a 1,2,3 approach."

I used 2 believe that, myself. Not anymore. But maybe a PARTICULAR 1,2,3 approach is what bothers you. A good professional will help you develop a plan for YOU 2 grow and heal your hurts, but it would still be a 1,2,3, maybe even a 4,5 approach. Otherwise, wouldn't it be disjointed? I had an individual counselor that wasn't 1,2,3, and when I stopped going 2 see him, I didn't feel any sense of loss, because we weren't really going anywhere.

"'I have transformed myself in2 a better husband, by eliminating many of the bad habits and behaviors I had before finding out about my W's A.'

Congrats, hopefully my husband can do the same."

Um... ...never mind your H. You can only affect change in yourself, so it doesn't make sense 2 sit around and wait for your H 2 change. He'll change if he WANTS 2 change. And he'll want 2 change if he sees the benefit in doing so. I think he's come a long way in the month or so I've "known" him. Do you believe you need 2 change? Or are you okay, and your marital problems are entirely his responsibility?

"Everyone needs a mission of some sort..."

No, sadly I don't think they all do. I know people who appear content 2 just do the same thing day in and day out. You're not one of those people. What's your mission?

"Yes, I believe that, as I said above, your own best interest at heart...and mind you, this isn't a bad thing..its human nature"

Yes.

"'I always wanted one of those T-shirts that says "Sacred cows make righteous hamburgers" but decided that I might offend someone if I wore it outdoors.'

It wouldn't be the first time you offended someone"

No, but your taking offense at something I said is ONE OF the first times I think I've offended someone on here, after almost 8,000 posts as 2long, T-zero, and Qfwfq, since February 2002. You still didn't answer my 2uestion, though. What did I say, exactly, that you found offensive. I would really like 2 know so that I can change that disrespectful behavior.

"'I'm not a vegetarian, but one of my sisters is. I try not 2 offend her 2 often. And like I said above, I'm not religious, but I am spiri2al. I am fanatical about marriage, though.'

Oops..Jury is still out for me on that one!"

You don't think I'm fanatical about marriage? Or that I'm not spiri2al? Okay. I don't get it, though.

"Rat Meat? Ouch...Fog talk?? Just kidding ]"

YES. FOG TALK INDEED (please read that thread I alluded 2 above). Penny Tupy would not let me call him RM on her discussion forum. Spacecase and others on iloveulove.com didn't want me 2 do that there, either. I should probably not do it here, but I've sort of gotten "fond" of the term. I COULD forgive him, I really could. But he hasn't asked for it. All I really "need" is for some sign that he's really given up trying 2 break up my family. But I don't even get that "satisfaction" from my W. So, RM for now. I probably just need someone 2 give me good enough reason 2 stop that disrespectful labeling. How about you? Consider that a friendly challenge 2 keep you posting! A mission of sorts!

'I don't know for certain that they're not still in contact.'

Ooof...I know the feeling."

Painful, isn't it?? Consider the pain your H is feeling now, 2. AND your OM, by being involved with a M'd woman. I'm not being harsh here. This IS hard and painful. And it's all over the boards. It's the single most focused-on subject every single day here. And people can help, even if their not professionals. But we all recognize that we're not substi2tes for professionals.

'Good? My beautiful, intelligent, outgoing daughter is getting married in March. That brings me great joy. My W and I saw her trying on her wedding gown a month or so ago. She was STUNNING.'

I bet she was!"

Thank you so much. I know what you mean, even though you don't know what she looks like. She's a beautiful spirit. So is her fiance (but he'd look lousy in a wedding gown, I think).

"NOPE! Not every arab is a terrorist."

Maybe not, but every terrorist is an arab. (My apologies 2 all: I ripped that off a standup comic after the first Gulf War. It's not really even true.).

"'Recognize, though, that anger is a choice, it's not something someone else "makes you". It is an emotion you choose. It is a REACTION, not a RESPONSE 2 something you may perceive someone DID 2 you.'

"Ummm...Yes...I perceived that my husband averaged one affair per year for our entire marriage. A choice? So someone would CHOOSE to be angry or not being angry-hmmmm"

Yes, exactly. Hard 2 do, isn't it? It involves forgiveness. VM has 2 forgive himself before he can forgive you, and you have 2 be able 2 do the same. If he's not able 2 forgive and love himself, warts and all, how the hell will he ever truly be lovable? Same can and has been said for the rest of us. We just have different colored warts.

'And hate, thankfully, is NOT the opposite of love, indifference is.'

I read that somewhere <scratching head>"

JL got it. I didn't know the reference. I probably heard it from someone here!

'because they want 2 2rn a very negative, painful time in these peoples' lives (both betrayed and wayward spouse) in2 an oppor2nity for personal growth and marital recovery.'

Yep, my sister did it."

And you should DRAW from her experience! Exactly what we do here. Never as a substi2te for a professional, though.

"I certainly wouldn't WANT to go through this so that my marriage is better. It's sad that a marriage can get so strong after an affair...there must be other ways?"

THere must, mustn't there? Everybody I've talked 2 here wishes they could have been "woken up" any other way than finding their spouse was having an A. And nearly all betrayed spouses spend months agonizing over how they failed their wayward spouse prior 2 the A, leaving them with apparently no choice but 2 have an A. We have remorse and guilt for our shortcomings, 2. But here we are. The key 2 recovery is 2 be able 2 2rn adversity in2 oppor2nity. That's my mission.

'I really do mean that you do have 2 take what you hear - here or anywhere in your life - and make your own decisions as how you want 2 live.'

Problem is...alot of people don't do that."

Perhaps. But again, if I "do" do that, by your own implied admission here, what did I say that offended you before?

I wish you all the best,
-ol' 2long

Maybe I'm a little slow on the uptake today, but just which one is married to VnusMars? Is it TheWifeofVnusmars, member #38322 or is it vnusmars2thewife, member #38321 or is they the same person? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Hey VMs wife !

I'm not a 'wise head' but I'd like to chuck in a welcome from the UK.

around 20 weeks ago was our D-day - my love and virgin bride had an affair with an old serial womaniser. I was destroyed.

I was also utterly cynical that any 'template' could possibly work for my unique heartbreak.

But in the absence of any hope or clue what to do other than kill myself of leave with teh kids never to return I read up on it.

The MB principles aren't offered up as a devine revelation to be shared with the unbelieving world, they are causes and effects deconstructed from thousands of couples' marriage repair efforts counselled by the Harleys.

I am still amazed that my FWW knows NOTHING about the dynamics of affairs or the MB principles yet STILL behaves in a manner that is predicted by MB and borne out by other folks on this board.

Don't dismiss the 'template' as a quasi-religious dogma, 'cos it is so very practical and proven daily in the lives of folks here and elsewhere.

Your situation is exponentially more complex than mine, and I am sure that there may be less precedent of behaviour and effect in the case of bilateral affairs and potential sex addiction than in more common situations but the tenets of MB remain true IMO.

But its clear you are smart, determined and hurt. You must ( and certainly WILL) do what you feel is right. MB is just a tool, U don;t have to use it, natch.

Welcome here, and I wish you and your husband peace and happiness.

I KNEW this thread was going to turn interesting once my W showed up...warned y'all she was a handful, didn't I?

(and I mean that in a good way, really, I love this chick) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

TheWifeofVnusMars and VnusMars2TheWife ARE the same person, not sure why she signed up twice.
I may have been a serial cheater, but I'm no polygamist <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I can understand why her initial reaction is that this is a "scripted" dogma. Hopefully she'll keep reading and see that everyone's situations and ideas are different. I have to admit I was skeptical too, as were most people who came here, as has been said above.


She and I talked on the phone for 3 hours 15 minutes last night, and it really was a positive thing, I think we're both coming to a better place separately and together as we work through our feelings about the past present & future and what role the other has to play in it.

She's just skeptical of taking "advice" from total strangers, and fears that I've put too much stock in what everyone here says.

I told her what most of y'all would probably tell her - it's more about expressing your thoughts and feelings and getting encouragement than it is being told what to do and what to say and how to act.
I told her that many times when I posted, I answered my own question before I was even done typing, and that it was nice to hear someone say "sounds like you're on the right track."


She is very unapologetic in many ways about her affair, and anyone here trying to call her to the mat on that is obviously going to be met with somewhat of a tongue-lashing.

I still have hope for us down the road, and I believe she does too. Just as I am doing the right thing by admitting my mistakes and solving my problems, I know she will come to grips with the subject of OM and do the right thing when she is ready.
I trust her implicitly to make the right decision, and to do it on her terms and no one else's. I am of the opinion that the right decision is to work things out once we're healed and I'm fixed...but that's for her to decide.

She may not post here again, for a long time if ever...she was pretty cynical about this place, as some of us may have been depending on WHY we came here - as the WS or the BS, interested in rebuilding or not...makes a lot of difference sometimes as to how you perceive the board.

As a devastated BS with little interest in rebuilding right now, and as a current WW involved in what she sees as a valid R with OM, her hostile reaction is no surprise. I hope someday her heart, her TRUE heart, wins out over her doubts and fears and any ghosts she may still be chasing...
I know it's down there somewhere beneath the rubble, it shows a little more of itself every day, as you have seen by the unraveling of events.

I'm going to back off posting for now - hopefully TWOVM will feel more comfortable coming back if I'm not inserting my 2 cents, which she's already heard for countless hours...

And maybe now I can get SOME WORK DONE! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ October 22, 2004, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

Vnus and Wife2Vnus,
I wish you folks the best. I hope you do what makes you happy, I can relate to Mrs.Venus when she said people have their own agendas, but I'd rather say *perspectives. My perspective is I like to see Marriages rebound and survive as long as there's no violence, but then again I'm a married man with 2 kids originally from a broken home, so I'm bias to families staying together, hence the name *Family Matters.

Hang in there Vnus you W sounds like a great person to have on your side, I don't think I'd want to be her competitor though <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

VM,

One thing she needs to realize is that </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She's just skeptical of taking "advice" from total strangers, and fears that I've put too much stock in what everyone here says.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You don't have to "take" the advice of anyone, but one probably should listen to it, consider it, evaluate it, and THEN decide whether to take it or not. Further, it will all come down to actions NOT words and only she and you can provide actions.

Now matter what she says, how she rationalizes it or justifies it, she is breaking HER marriage vows and she is having an affair. Those are the actions she is taking and she will have to face that and I suspect when she does she will be very disappointed in herself.

VM, the same goes for you. You have broken YOUR marriage vows and there is no rationalization that will change that. The only thing you can do is take action to address the problems and issues. Talking about it while informative and perhaps educational is just that talk. ACTION is what both of you will have to finally base any decision on.

She was in her A before she knew of yours, thus even the lame "but he did it first" is not valid. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> She must face that.

You both have issues, and only actions taken to address these issues will count. That is why the "advice" here is just that. It must be processed and decisions made, and only you two can do that.

So while she may think this approach is cookie cutter, as was said earlier it is NOT.

Must go I do hope you and your W in fact do continue to read here, especially the articles, and post on occasion.

Must go,

JL

VM family (planetary family, indeed!):

"She is very unapologetic in many ways about her affair,"

Not unique. Quite "scripted." This is all still pretty new 2 both of you. This perspective will change with time.

"and anyone here trying to call her to the mat on that is obviously going to be met with somewhat of a tongue-lashing."

I'm not trying 2 *call* her 2 the mat, I'm hoping 2 PUSH her OFF THE FENCE and firmly on2 the mat. I can take tongue lashings. I got a LOT of them at home. It's part of the process. Part of the "script."

"She may not post here again, for a long time if ever..."

Shoot. I was hoping she'd answer my 2uestion!

"she was pretty cynical about this place, as some of us may have been depending on WHY we came here - as the WS or the BS, interested in rebuilding or not...makes a lot of difference sometimes as to how you perceive the board."

My W is still pretty cynical about this place. And you're right, our reasons for coming here (or our spouses coming here) have a big impact on our perceptions. This, 2, is part of the script.

best,
-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong> VM family (planetary family, indeed!):

"She is very unapologetic in many ways about her affair,"

Not unique. Quite "scripted." This is all still pretty new 2 both of you. This perspective will change with time.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I noticed that as well 2Long...In fact Dr. Harley described MrsVenus feelings about her A to a tee I'll have to find that link and post it. I honestly don't think MRsVenus is in a mindstate that she could appreciate this site, or accept our advice in the spirit in which it was given...of course thats just my opinion.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

FM:

"I honestly don't think MRsVenus is in a mindstate that she could appreciate this site, or accept our advice in the spirit in which it was given...of course thats just my opinion."

Ah, but this is now! ...the FU2RE lies ahead!

Perspectives change.

-ol' 2long

So...it's been since Thursday P.M. that I've posted...been an interesting 3.5 days since TWOVM had her "thread battle" with other members of this board!

That night was hard, I went over to the house for an kitty emergency (turned out to be a false alarm) and ended up cleaning up the mess she'd made of all my clothes (some of them she had cut up in a rage) and a musical instrument she had smashed on D-Day #2 (mentioned above). I completely lost it on the floor, a sobbing wreck, couldn't help myself...she was comforting and sweet about it and it was very nice.

We spent most of the weekend together, at least 3-4 hours per day, hanging out, shopping, eating, drinking...we went to happy hour on Friday night, I went over on Saturday and hung out with her and had dinner, on Sunday we went shopping...

All very nice. Only a handful of "sad" moments that mostly were just about how much we miss each other and how devastated we are.

She even said and did some loving & hopeful things like:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agreeing to put me on her health insurance (she just got hired and hers is better than mine)</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Looking at 1- AND 2-bedroom apartments and saying "if we work it out we can move into one of these"</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Out of the blue she said "if we work out I think we should get married again" (I guess like a vow renewal since DV isn't being discussed)...odd thing about this was I had dreamt the same thing that very morning</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just general loving-ness and concern</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She even made me buy her a nice silver-&-jasper ring as a birthday present (today 10/25 is her b-day) saying "you've got alot of sucking up to do" in her very TWOVM "I'm joking but I'm not" kinda way <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /></font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">


The only real flare-up was Sunday; in the morning she tried calling my cell phone but I didn't answer because it was upstairs and I was down in the kitchen; I thought I was on MSN Messenger on my laptop in the kitchen but for some reason I didn't appear "online" until I rebooted. She told me later the first thing that crossed her mind is that I was with some OW <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
Nope, I was in my PJ's, makin' coffee!!

Then we had a long discussion about the cell phone bill...which she was looking at while I was on the phone with her...and of which of course was "clean" since as promised I have had NC with OW (not intentional, at least, as I mentioned I ran into one OW at a show but told my W about it).
She questioned me about a few numbers, almost all of them I recognized, a few I didn't but were probably prospective students, musicians, etc.
And the nice thing was, she even said "wow, the cell phone bill took a shower for once!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Yep, and it's gonna stay that way.


Then Sunday night she had a bit of a LB moment, starting in on the "how could you" "you're broken and can't be fixed" "I deserve someone better"...the anger came back up again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I handled it like I'm supposed to, with understanding and calm, but also trying to remind her that earlier that day she was talking about what we'd do if we got back together.
She actually came around a bit and admitted the mood swing was crazy; probably a vestige of having a nice weekend together (since angry outbursts always tend to happen after we spend lots of time together, like it's a way of compensating for the love and positiveness and keeping me in check).

Today is her b-day, and I sent her an online card, also left 4 roses for her at the house with a note referring to the fact that the first month after we started "dating," I gave her 4 red roses on her b-day to signify the 4 weeks we'd been together that far...and said "here's to a new start, like we had then" since we're technically starting over in a lot of ways.

The only thing wrong is...with me, for a change.
There's still something in my gut that's bugging me.
I'm just scared...afraid of what's going to happen, afraid there's more to the whole story than she's letting on (I guess I fear there are more secrets about her plans and goals), and even though her actions and words are "I want you back but let's just wait and see," I'm still worried. It's nothing that I'll let get in the way of MY progress, MY healing, the work I have to do to be a better man and husband, but...

I guess I'm worried because of 2 things:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The ongoing presence of OM - even though she says "trust me" and seems to be leaning towards it not working out with him...why the heck is she even doing it? That whole scenario just confuses the he11 out of me.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She and her Mom are moving 30 miles away from here (we've been within 1 mile of each other since D-Day) - less chance to see her, to hang out with her, even though we can still talk and go do things together.</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

The good news is - I talked to our landlord today and they're going to cut us a break on getting out of the lease and not charge me the cancellation fee.
I was so worried about TWOVM and her Mom getting out of that apartment that holds so many bad memories, and now that they can, I'm left holding the bag (by my own choice)...but that bag is $1100 lighter than it was going to be! So...big relief to me.

<small>[ October 25, 2004, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

VM:

"Out of the blue she said "if we work out I think we should get married again" (I guess like a vow renewal since DV isn't being discussed)...odd thing about this was I had dreamt the same thing that very morning"

This makes perfect sense 2 me. My W had said many times "we're emotionally divorced". If that's true, even if it's only in her mind, then we're going 2 need 2 be "emotionally remarried" at some point. If my W were 2 make such an offer again (like she did 2 months after d-day), i'd jump at the chance.

"The ongoing presence of OM - even though she says "trust me" and seems to be leaning towards it not working out with him...why the heck is she even doing it? That whole scenario just confuses the he11 out of me."

Not surprisingly. She is demanding proof of your faithfulness 2 her while she's having an A. It doesn't matter that she's "leaning 2ward it not working out with him". She's having an A.

You can't seem 2 ask this, so I will:

2VM: If you believe there is a chance that you and your H may be able 2 reconcile, please tell the OM that you can't see or speak 2 him for the rest of your life. Do this now. Do not do this "half way." Meaning, do not tell him "I need some time alone 2 figure out whether my H and I can work things out. If they don't, will you wait for me?" No, your relationship with the OM NOW is dishonest, thoughtless, and selfish. It must END, whether you and VM can reconcile or not. If not, give yourself a year or 2 of healing before you start dating again. Please consider this carefully.

That's all I have for now.

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong> VM:

"Out of the blue she said "if we work out I think we should get married again" (I guess like a vow renewal since DV isn't being discussed)...odd thing about this was I had dreamt the same thing that very morning"

This makes perfect sense 2 me. My W had said many times "we're emotionally divorced". If that's true, even if it's only in her mind, then we're going 2 need 2 be "emotionally remarried" at some point. If my W were 2 make such an offer again (like she did 2 months after d-day), i'd jump at the chance.

"The ongoing presence of OM - even though she says "trust me" and seems to be leaning towards it not working out with him...why the heck is she even doing it? That whole scenario just confuses the he11 out of me."

Not surprisingly. She is demanding proof of your faithfulness 2 her while she's having an A. It doesn't matter that she's "leaning 2ward it not working out with him". She's having an A.

You can't seem 2 ask this, so I will:

2VM: If you believe there is a chance that you and your H may be able 2 reconcile, please tell the OM that you can't see or speak 2 him for the rest of your life. Do this now. Do not do this "half way." Meaning, do not tell him "I need some time alone 2 figure out whether my H and I can work things out. If they don't, will you wait for me?" No, your relationship with the OM NOW is dishonest, thoughtless, and selfish. It must END, whether you and VM can reconcile or not. If not, give yourself a year or 2 of healing before you start dating again. Please consider this carefully.

That's all I have for now.

-ol' 2long </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks 2long...
Yes, I understand about the whole "emotionally divorced" thing. Honestly, she said to me not too long ago that she loves me but isn't IN LOVE with me anymore (ahh yes the classic line). I believe that, and understand the symbolism of her request. I DID jump at the chance, even though she was speaking "hypothetically."

As for OM...
Since she is "emotionally divorced" from me, I think she still sees nothing wrong with OM, and she scoffed quite heavily at yours and others' suggestions that she should end that R.

And yes, I think she's holding on to him for:

</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whatever amount of "fun" and "love" and "distraction" he provides by being a man who loves her but hasn't destroyed her</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The very slight outside chance that he MAY BE the one, spurred by the part of her that thinks I'm completely hopeless and a demon - but all of my senses tell me this is a very very very small possibility</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To keep me in check, to exact a small amount of revenge, and to see how I respond to his presence - do I turn tail and run, or do I wait patiently for her to recover and fight for her? I must not have been worth it to begin with if I give up easily, and I prove my worth by sticking to my guns in the face of the most heinous weapon (even her outbursts are easier to deal with than him, OM is a HUGE thorn in my side).
  
  She DOES throw him in my face when she's angry, like last night she said "you went out and had your fun, which is why I'm having my fun now." Ouch.</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

We discussed the thread later that night on IM, and that's when she said things like "I could never replace you and I'm not trying to" and "trust me to know what I'm doing with this" and "I see the flaws, trust me, that R is far from perfect."

Very mixed signals.

Honestly, I wonder if there's more to the story and she's afraid to tell me because she thinks I MIGHT GIVE UP ON HER??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
Wow. That's pretty crazy.
I can't think of ANYTHING that would cause me to give up on her completely, even her giving up on me first.
But the way she keeps saying "trust me I know what I'm doing..." hmmmm....

But alas, 2long, your words probably fall on deaf ears/blind eyes, because she pretty much swore she would never return here. And she said when and if we do seek MC and reconciliation, she doesn't want to "do it like that cult wants us to." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I couldn't make her understand that I'm not here to be told what to do and say, or to fall lockstep into a prescribed method of rebuilding a marriage. But whatever...she's free to do her thing.
I'm finding less and less need for the board myself, just through an increased emphasis on myself, my problems, and a bit more strength and confidence that things will work out. But y'all were GREAT in my most troubled times.

<small>[ October 25, 2004, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

VM:

"As for OM...
Since she is "emotionally divorced" from me, I think she still sees nothing wrong with OM, and she scoffed quite heavily at yours and others' suggestions that she should end that R."

That is a rationalized excuse for bad behavior. "Emotional DV" is a feeling, it's NOT a legal divorce. She should end that A (not R).

"Whatever amount of "fun" and "love" and "distraction" he provides by being a man who loves her but hasn't destroyed her"

And he won't distroy her either, unless he's an axe murderer or something. She's destroying herself by trashing whatever morals or integrity she herself demands from you. This isn't about the OM. This is about what kind of peson she intends 2 be.

"The very slight outside chance that he MAY BE the one, spurred by the part of her that thinks I'm completely hopeless and a demon - but all of my senses tell me this is a very very very small possibility"

There is NO SUCH THING as "soulmates" or "the one". Even if there is, does she want a liar and a cheat - names that she calls you - for her sole-mate (rubber solemate?). I like Jack218's term for this kind of person: @$$hole mate. As for you being a hopeless demon? Maybe you are, but I doubt it. But if she believes you are, why try at all?

"To keep me in check, to exact a small amount of revenge, and to see how I respond to his presence - do I turn tail and run, or do I wait patiently for her to recover and fight for her?"

A very sobering 2uestion. Think about it: How long will you "patiently wait for her 2 recover and fight for her?" 6 months? A year? The rest of your life? And what does she believe "fighting for her" consists of? Killing the OM? (they did that in "Unfaithful", you know). How long will you wait for her 2 change from a liar and a cheat "exacting revenge" 2 a vir2ous woman who practices what she preaches and requires of you because it's the right thing 2 do?

"I must not have been worth it to begin with if I give up easily, and I prove my worth by sticking to my guns in the face of the most heinous weapon (even her outbursts are easier to deal with than him, OM is a HUGE thorn in my side)."

Just remember that YOU prove YOUR worth because you know that it's the right thing 2 do - that it's the kind of man you want 2 be from now on. You don't do this for her. You don't do this 2 spite jerks willing 2 have affairs with married women. You do this because you know what is right and what is wrong. You behaved badly in the past, but you show, by living it, that you do not intend 2 behave that way anymore. ...and you want a partner with similar beleifs about integrity and honor.

"She DOES throw him in my face when she's angry, like last night she said "you went out and had your fun, which is why I'm having my fun now." Ouch. She can be VERY hurtful when she wants to be."

Indeed. In the long haul, who is she hurting with this behavior? Will it be you? Not if you're healing.

-ol' 2long

VM:

"But alas, 2long, your words probably fall on deaf ears/blind eyes, because she pretty much swore she would never return here. And she said when and if we do seek MC and reconciliation, she doesn't want to "do it like that cult wants us to."

Maybe we should cut a calf or something? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong> VM:

"But alas, 2long, your words probably fall on deaf ears/blind eyes, because she pretty much swore she would never return here. And she said when and if we do seek MC and reconciliation, she doesn't want to "do it like that cult wants us to."

Maybe we should cut a calf or something? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-ol' 2long </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ha! That was funny.

Moral of my story is....bide your time. I actually feel better since I posted that last message, it often just takes typing it out for me to realize...I need to STOP WORRYING!!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'll be OK...just the normal ups and downs of the crushing blow of losing my marriage and my wonderful girl <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> hopefully to return to me someday <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> when I'm a better person! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

2long...

I have a lot of patience with her. I can wait for a long time for her, because it's going to take ME awhile to solve my problems...and until I do I can't expect her to get rid of OM and look in my direction. Well, I guess I can say that I think it would be the RIGHT thing to do, but...she's playing by her own rules, for better or for worse. I can only hope she's smart enough to do the right thing someday, whatever that may be, even if it's difficult.

That's the part of me that doesn't feel deserving of having an attitude where he is concerned.
It's the part of me that has to look at this like "he's in her life and has a shot at her, and so am I and so do I...he has advantages I don't have, and I have advantages he doesn't."

I guess in a way we're both vying for her affection. It must be a nice position for her to be in, in some ways. B
ut also EXTREMELY confusing and contradictory. I don't know how she thinks she can heal under this type of stress...the stress of loving me and loving him (if she does) and of giving us both attention, since she hasn't shut either of us out (I get more time with her than he does, but his time with her is probably more...quality, shall we say? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> )

So...she's worth the wait, because I know what's down there, I know the girl I married and miss her more than anything. If she's gone for good, then yes, I guess I'll have to move on and leave her be. But I don't think that's what she wants anymore than it is what I want.

<small>[ October 25, 2004, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

VM:

"I guess in a way we're both vying for her affection. It must be a nice position for her to be in, in some ways. "

In some ways. She's getting her cake and eating it 2, from her perch on that fence. It's a position of utmost arrogance, believing that she can have the affections of 2 men, bide her time making a decision (after all, right now, she believes she doesn't have 2 choose).

but...

There will come a day when one of you... ...maybe even BOTH of you... tire of the game.

I'm betting that it'll take months at most for that 2 happen.

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong> VM:

"I guess in a way we're both vying for her affection. It must be a nice position for her to be in, in some ways. "

In some ways. She's getting her cake and eating it 2, from her perch on that fence. It's a position of utmost arrogance, believing that she can have the affections of 2 men, bide her time making a decision (after all, right now, she believes she doesn't have 2 choose).

but...

There will come a day when one of you... ...maybe even BOTH of you... tire of the game.

I'm betting that it'll take months at most for that 2 happen.

-ol' 2long </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2long...
In a lot of ways, I am already tiring of it. I brought her some dinner last night after a long and very stressful discussion about us, him, my issues, her plans, etc. and finding out that OM is coming to town this weekend and she's going to be with him on Thanksgiving weekend <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ...

I was down in the kitchen and lying on the counter were 2 pieces of paper - a note I had written her with some roses I had gotten her for her b-day...a nice note, saying "here's to a hopeful future, maybe a new life together someday"...but then next to it was handprinted sheet music to one of her favorite songs...handprinted by OM and mailed to her as a b-day gift.

And I thought - WHAT THE HE11 AM I DOING???

I went back upstairs and looked at her and realized a part of me was dying, hardening. She sensed it too, because she asked me what was wrong. I brushed it off, but I'm horribly frightened by the fact that I feel myself saying "f%@! this!"

After I left, we were on IM again...and had a long talk about my issues and my recognition of them etc.etc...overall it was a very painful discussion, I had to admit things I've been scared to admit...but it was healthy and she felt better in some ways I think.

But then all night I obsessed about OM, and still am as we speak.
I don't want to lose her, not speak to her, go into Plan B...when OM isn't coming to town or she's going there, when he's not a factor, we have very good times...
And she DOES tell me it has nothing to do with me and she's doing what she thinks she needs to do...
And not 3 days ago she WAS talking about a future where we're together...

I wish I could sit back and be confident that things will work out on their own, that she just needs time and space and yes, HIM, to possibly come back to me later. Sometimes I'm OK, but most of the time there's a wrench in my gut picturing the two of them together.

Part of me DOES want to say "screw this" and cut her off, just to save my sanity. I'm still on the rollercoaster right now. I have the highest highs of the last few months when I'm with her, but also the lowest lows.

I just don't want to start losing faith in her, respect for her, or love for her. And that's already starting to overwhelm me in my dark moments.

And now she's leaving the apartment in 1 month and moving 30 miles away with her Mom, and we'll have much less chance to see each other for a few months until she can get into her own place.


<sigh> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
I'm just so unsure of what to do...

<small>[ October 26, 2004, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

"And she actually was GLAD to hear me admit that, she said the "robot speak" was starting to make her doubt my sincerity and dedication to the task.
It was actually not a bad discussion, somewhat of a breakthrough actually."

Good!

Ever hear the expression "What you resist, persists"? I am FAMOUS for not being able 2 let go of thoughts of resentment of RM in our lives. I do believe that that negativity prolonged contact - in fact I know it did.

I was going 2 offer you a quote from Eckhart Tolle's "The Power of Now", but I couldn't find it and have 2 run.

Suffice it 2 say that it is certainly possible 2 focus on the negativity of all that's going on, or that you imagine is going on, between your W and the OM. Tolle would advise that you "watch the thinker" in si2ations like that. Meaning, be as objective as you watch the way you react 2 what you perceive is happening TO you. Notice how easily you get wrapped up in playing mental videos of scenarios of encounters between him and her, between you and her, or between you and him, over and over in your head. And watch how that affects you - gets your blood boiling, doesn't it?

It's hard as hell 2 stop that, believe me. I still have a tough time doing it at times. But it's no less necessary that you do so.

You're shifting from "see how I'm changing" robotic remarks 2 just telling her how you feel was a big positive step. Telling someone close 2 you (that you perceive as choosing 2 hurt you) that you are vulnerable is difficult, but liberating.

More later, probably 2morrow,
-ol' 2long

"Admitting fear vs. robot talk"
I just had a long call with BS/WW where she said she was glad that I said that -
"I would be afraid to get married to someone else because I'm afraid right now that I would do this again to them."
She said hearing me say that makes her realize that there was nothing SHE could have done to prevent my behavior, that it wasn't about her, and that's helping give her peace.
I'm glad, I DO want her to have peace.

It also seemed to give her relief that I'm not deluding myself, that I AM in touch with reality.

I also admitted to her the "twinge" that goes with that fear...that feeling I get when she's angry with me, or off with OM...that feeling that is like the alcoholic craving a drink - I feel like going out and flirting with girls, getting my ego stroked, the same twinge that pushed me to do very bad things to her and our M.

Fortunately, it's not as easy for me to cave in to that twinge as it is for the boozer who can run to the corner store and get a bottle of vodka - the OW in my previous life want nothing to do with me anymore I'm sure - so I couldn't call them even if I was weak enough to pick up the phone.
And it's not as easy to go out and find someone to admire you as it is to buy vodka! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

But ultimately - I want to be strong. I want to resist the temptation until I have the chance to kill it off for good. So I won't cave in, no matter what happens.

Strength and eating cake
I'm trying to be strong. But it's going to be many long months before
a) I am healed and
b) OM is gone and
c) she decides she wants me back.


I know she's eating cake - but I'm also getting to eat some cake when I get to be with her and feel what is her genuine love for me.

And she does say that her R with OM has nothing to do with us, has nothing to do with our future together or apart, and she seems to truly believe that because rarely does he come up in conversation directly. She certainly doesn't throw him in my face; in fact, she takes great pains to keep him silent.

She doesn't waffle and say "I love him and want to be with him" one day and cry about wanting me back the next the way some WS's here seem to do.
Yes, I think there is a degree of spite there - unapologetic pursual by her of something and someone other than me because of the damage I've done, a fear of dumping him because I may take it as a sign she wants me back, etc.

And he validates her, makes her feel wanted and beautiful...but even by her own admission he's pretty immature and highly flawed, they argue all the time, and she is plagued by thoughts of me when they are together. And when we are together, she points out how much more mature I am, how much better I satisfy her emotional needs, and how much we have in common...

I honestly think her feelings for him are a smaller part of why she's with him, outside of my infidelities I know she still sees me as the better man.

I don't want to see her as weak, but in a way I do. What happened to the W I knew that didn't take crap from anyone, didn't need anyone, could do everything on her own? She seems to be using OM as a crutch to get through this time.
And there is STILL SOMETHING THERE that she's not telling me, I can feel it.

I don't know HOW I'm going to survive. I wish I could take the thoughts of OM and all evidence of his existence and shut myself off to them, so that I can feel the warmth that my W does show me but not see/hear/feel the pain of jealousy and anger over OM, and keep it shut out until the day we can work things out again.

But I can't. And I fear that my self-defense mechanisms are kicking in, or will kick in in the near future as this whole thing drags on, and make me numb to her, shut her out, even though I don't want to.
This jealousy and anger must be controlled, but I just don't know how I can without also deadening my heart to her.

<small>[ October 26, 2004, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>