I am just having some real issues with WH's not being forthcoming with any of his actions or his day since he moved back home.

He used to call me while on his way to work. He doesn't now. He used to call me while on his way home. He doesn't now.

My gut feeling is that he is talking to OW.

I feel totally gutted.....I'm trying to be patient with him. Not ask him any questions. I'm not being clingy, or saying ILY unless he says it first.

But he tells me nothing! I know he is supposed to be in withdrawal. That's all I know.

I continue to snoop on his cell phones. He is either NOT in contact with OW, or he has gotten sneakier, and now erases any incoming calls, outgoing calls to her, etc.

I know that TRUST is a real issue for me. For so long I trusted him, and have been proven wrong. In the past, he used to turn everything around on me so I wouldn't question anything he did (more so since the A started - DUH!)

So, if I am not supposed to ask him any questions at all, or talk about our M, or the A, short of hiring a PI, how am I supposed to know anything?

Is a gutted fish patient? Or just gutted?

K

Trust your gut. If you need to snoop or hire a PI do so. If he has changed his pattern of checking in with you I'd say that is suspicious.

It doesn't sound like he has the attitude of a truly repentant, remorseful FWH. It doesn't sound like he is there yet. He may have gotten sneakier. Mine had a secret cell phone he kept hidden in his truck during a couple of false recoveries.

I don't recall if you have access to his cell phone bill? Do what you need to do. A truly FWH would understand that it will take you some time, through consistant actions on his part, for you to rebuild trust. It is one thing to plan A during his withdrawal...it is another to just blindly trust. Do what you need to do to feel safe.

K, can you get his cell phone bill? If so, you might be able to go online and track his calls. I suspect he is in contact with the OW.

And there is no reason that you can't talk about the affair or ask him questions. Just make sure you don't do it with lovebusters. Now is not the time to ignore the elephant in the living room.

Honestly, K, I so wish I were wrong, but I don't think he is done with this affair at all. I think if you do some investigating you will find he is still seeing her. You are probably going to have to expose this affair at work and everywhere else if you want to save your marriage. I have felt that way for a long time and have hesitated to say anything because I had hoped you could avoid it. You may have no choice in this if you want to save your marriage.

Hi Trix.....

I do have access to WH's personal cell phone bill. But I have no way of accessing his work cell phone bill. And I cannot figure out the password to his work phone's (the one at his desk) voice mail.

I do know how to access both of the cell phone's voice mail. Haven't found anything there yet.

He used to have secret cell phones that OW gave him. He supposedly gave them back to her, along with a letter, when he broke up with her.

Too bad PI's are so expensive. I cannot afford one. I did buy a tape recorder, but it will not work for this. I tried it out in my car.

My thing is, he leaves his cell phones out in his car when he comes home. He didn't do this before. Yeah, it is suspicious.

And, since he works in the same building with OW, he can have easy access to her in other ways.

I don't know how he managed to carry on his A while he was still living at home for 2 years. After he moved to his apartment (one year ago), it was easy for him. I do know he could carry on the A now, like before when he lived at home.

Last night (this is a BTW....) DD called. She was pi$$ed off because she is having her first "break out" of the STD she got from her BF 2 years ago. She said how angry she was all over again.

Her situation is similar to mine (this was how she found out her BF was cheating on her).

WH could hear our whole conversation. Does he not realize that I will feel the same way if and when I have a break out of the STD he gave me?

No, he is not repentant. Not forthcoming with info. Not being up-front with anything. Yet, I know he thinks I should blindly trust him anyway.

How can I tell him all of this, learn what is really going on with him, without a huge LB?

I don't know how to approach this....like I said, I feel gutted.

K

When mine was back in contact, or in his new A, he also kept his cell phone in the truck and kept the truck locked which he doesn't normally do...in fact he usually even keeps the keys in the ignition.

Would your H be willing to go through the MB program to try to build a better, new marriage with you?
Then he could find out about POJA and radical honest in a way that may not be constued as a LB.

It's really important, as MelodyLane said, to not LB . Try to be upbeat, positive, calm, loving, firm. Don't be the shrinking violet, meek, or whiny. One thing my H always liked about his A's was the 'fun' aspect. It is so hard to keep a balance while wanting to attract them back with hopes of a great new marriage with you and also have to battle these doubts of his still being in the A.

I don't think it sounds like he is really over the A. So difficult that they have to be working in the same place. That will make your recovery that much more difficult if not impossible.

I can't recall what kinds of exposure you've done.

K, have you ever tried to keep 2 feet in 1 shoe ?
Well you fall down its hard to balance yourself and why would ya after all you got 2 shoes for a reason ...

OPEN your mouth ,,, you are an adult , you have choices and rights ,,, your questions and concerns are valed ....

Ask away ,,, as much as you want ,,, express your concerns ,,,, ask for the passwords it is your right !

You are his wife he had an A ,,, if he wants to be home he NEEDS to DO at least in the beging ,, some little things while in withdrawal ,,, N/C, passwords ,and accountablity for time and place .

Withdrawls is NOT AN EXCUSE TO BE EXCUSED for showing some ACTION in the direction of haveing a M.

If he won't give ya access get on the phone follow the promps and change the password yourself ....

JMO ...

Thanks Mel....

You and I posted at the same time.

Trix....I have exposed to friends and family. Have not done any exposure at work.

OW is the secretary for the district manager. WH is in middle management. Both work for the state Department of Natural Resources. They work in the same building, on the same floor.

I just don't know how to do any of this. Fun aspect of the marriage? Part of our fun together is scuba diving. Right now, that's out for me, because I ruptured my ear drum (while scuba diving about 10 days ago). We like to go to concerts, listen to music together, etc.

I'm totally NOT being clingy, or whiny. I really haven't said much at all about what is going on now.

Unless I send him an e-mail, or just sit down and start talking to him about my fears, etc., like I said....I just don't know how to do it.

K

Yes, absolutely. When my H was serious about recovery he had absolutely no need or desire for privacy. He should gladly give up all passwords etc. Open book is what he needs to show you....if he is serious. Anything else implies guilt...cake...

Okay,

I know he is FULL of guilt. The only thing he talks about is what he has done to HIMSELF!

I understand that. I know that. What he used to be, he is NOT anymore.

I will think on this today. Formulate some kind of plan, and words to say to him.

I'm tired of being swept under the rug. All I find there is more dirt. COUGH! COUGH! AAAACHOOO!

K

All I'm going on is my own experience. It also seems to be born out with other's experiences as well. Take M23B's. I believe her H is truly wanting to be in real recovery now. All the signs are different this time than their other false recoveries...time will tell as they still have other hurdles to cover.

I can't know anything for certain, that is why you will ultimately have to trust your own gut and come up with the proof you need. I just know I was played for a fool too many times and know a bit better now what to be on the look out for...it just doesn't seem like you are there yet (real recovery)...wishful thinking doesn't cut it...you are smarter than that.

But, I could be wrong and it could be just his style of withdrawal. I just don't think he should need kid glove treatment. I'd like to see more actions on his part that prove he is serious about having ended it permanently with OW...and any possible future..OW. That he really - gets it -.

Wow!

Story line sounds so familiar....

Now that my eyes are open, I see so many of the changes in behavior from the way he used to be vs now. Of course, he swears he's ALWAYS been that way!

But I see that he's trying to keep the M together, still he hasn't tried very hard. Biggest dissappointment this week was that he'd promised if OW tried to contact, he'd tell me, but he didn't. Had to draaaaaagggg it out of him. That really hurts. Promises broken.

Again and again.

How long to wait?

Looks like we might both have a little cake-eating going on, huh?

Trix:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is so hard to keep a balance while wanting to attract them back with hopes of a great new marriage with you and also have to battle these doubts of his still being in the A.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How do you achieve this???!!!


3isa:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OPEN your mouth ,,, you are an adult , you have choices and rights ,,, your questions and concerns are valed ....

Ask away ,,, as much as you want ,,, express your concerns ,,,, ask for the passwords it is your right !

You are his wife he had an A ,,, if he wants to be home he NEEDS to DO at least in the beging ,, some little things while in withdrawal ,,, N/C, passwords ,and accountablity for time and place .

Withdrawls is NOT AN EXCUSE TO BE EXCUSED for showing some ACTION in the direction of haveing a M.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Same question to you?

both: How, without LBing?

(sorry if this is a hijack - non intended - perhaps K would like to know too?)

YES.....

I would like to know how to do all this without LBing.

Right now, the way I feel about our situation, is that ANYTHING I say or ask will be misconstrued as a LB.

No problem with the hijacking.....I need to know these things too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Since I've kind of hit a brick wall as far as snooping....I have no proof as yet. The only thing I could wait for is for WH to slip up.

Seems like he still would lie, unless I bluff. He did lie the last time I asked him about calling OW at work the day he was supposed to break up with her, and just didn't have the time!

Then, he finally said, "I don't know how you know! You must have some sort of spy/snitch at my office!" Maybe he figured out how I DID know!

K

K, the problem here is that the affair will continue as long as they are in contact at work. That needs to be addressed and that is why I am saying that I think you are never going to end this until you expose the affair at work. They can't work together, do you realize that? Nor do I think the affair has ended at all. I believe the only thing that will end it is if you expose the affair to her boss.

Mel...

I do realize they can't work together. Right now, they are in the process of moving his office down to their "Marine Station".

He says he will not have to be in the office about 95% of the time, and will only have to go there for meetings.

To my mind, this 5% is too much!

I think I will probably have to expose the A at work at some point. Steve Harley told me to do that at this point would be taken as being vindictive, or out for revenge.

My hope is that he would be up-front with any information, and NOT MAKE me have to ask.

I guess I will start with talking to him, telling him that his actions at this time are making me feel very insecure. That, if he does really want to work on our marriage, he needs to show me some actions that match his words.

The thing I hate the most about this is how suspicious I have become, how sneaky I feel I have to be.

It's just not ME!

Oh, and I KNOW he's going to blow a gasket when I talk to him. I think it's a learned response to me over the past 3 years. Jumping on everything I say, and turning it around to make me feel like everything is all my fault. I hate that too.

K

My H suggested that maybe you could turn it around and ask how he would feel about you being in contact with an A partner at work? What would he want you to do?

Maybe he is incapable of putting himself in your shoes though.

Go back and read plan A. My D was on the computer all evening otherwise I would have looked up some stuff that may have been helpful with direction on how to approach these kinds of conversations.

Orchid and Pep are usually good at coming up with 'the right' things to say...more than I am. But, I also think that unless your H is really ready to be receptive about all aspects of what is necessary for a real recovery anything may be fruitless.

Have him read the first few chapters (at least) of SAA if he hasnt' already done so.

You may benefit from looking over the Lovebusting Book. My H and I read it together. Maybe I am grasping at straws here.

Trust has to be earned.

Perhaps you can print this out (below) and let him read it.
SS

Trust - By Takola

It is frustrating to know your mate does not trust you. The knowledge can be quite painful. It is also, underneath the hurt, empowering. You know what is wrong, so now you can figure out how to fix it.

Trust is earned, as is credibility. It is not something freely given, no matter how much society tries to pretend that it is. Trust is earned by repeatedly telling verifiable truths. It is earned by not causing harm to another. It is earned when someone is always there to catch us when we fall. It is damaged when someone allows us to fall or, worse, is the cause of the tumble. It is damaged when untruths are detected. It makes us question what else has occurred. What else was dishonest? When else were you pushed and caused to stumble?


The answer to the loss of trust is to realize first that there is a reason for it.

Second, you need to take responsibility for it.

Third, you need to accept that it takes time to rebuild trust.

Fourth, you need to behave in a trustworthy manner so as to actually rebuild the trust.

People come to me all the time complaining that their spouse doesn’t trust them. My answer is to repair their credibility and behave in a verifiably trustworthy manner.

“He should just know I’m telling the truth.” No. Read The National Enquirer. Do you just know that any article in there is true? I hope not. The problem is credibility. Until you rebuild your own, you must rely on the credibility of other things that independently verify your truthfulness.

Spouses who have lost credibility make the mistake of trying to stand on it anyway. If you try to stand on a bridge that isn’t there, you are going to fall. Same thing happens when you try to stand on missing credibility. They also try to push it to be the problem of the spouse who doesn’t trust them

“She just has trust issues.” My answer is, “She has issues trusting you because you’ve taught her that trusting you leads to pain and/or humiliation. She shouldn’t trust you. Want trust? Earn it.”

Final analogy: trust isn’t like the lottery, where you get a lot for practically nothing. It’s more like a paycheck that has to be earned.

Thanks Trix and SS....

WH did read a little of SAA. I don't know how much, though. He sort of became unreceptive to anything that had to do with learning about how to fix this.

I will look over Love Busters again.

SS.....I do love the quote about trust. Here, again, I do not know if WH will read it.

I DO know that I have to get some things real clear with him. I have told him my boundaries several times before he ever thought about coming home. He calls them "demands".

I listened to a voice mail he left me when he decided to move home for my birthday. He told me that he was sincere about this. That he was sincere about making things work. That he wrote OW a letter (but will not tell me what he said in the letter), and gave her cell phones back to her.

He said he was not going to do the back and forth thing anymore. That he told OW that, too. (And that it's killing her ---- how does he know that?)

I would like to send the voice mail to OW. She would probably just laugh.

What I would really like to do is to leave her a message calling her names (HO, homewrecker, adulterer) but I won't.

I've worked really hard at listening to WH tell me things about OW, and not letting it affect me - at least on the outside. I've also worked very hard at keeping my sarcasm, and very smart mouth, to myself. These things have been very hard on me. It's my way of fighting back.

Anyway, I think WH is out of his mind to let 32 years go down the drain for someone he doesn't really even know.

Yes, yes, I KNOW OW is a moral, kind, easy-going woman!!!!! They all are, aren't they?

I KNOW OW is just like me! WH has told me this many times.

Does he think I have $hit for brains? Mush, maybe now.....but definitely not $hit!!!!

K

X-Files (i think)

TRUST NO ONE!

I don't normally advocate that as I think it would be a horrible way to live my life. I'd usually rather get hurt from trusting than live without the ability to do so.

But, right now, TRUST NO WH.

JMO.

From experience....I'm living it, as are you!

I am a bit jaded right now too.

<small>[ October 21, 2004, 12:48 AM: Message edited by: faithinme ]</small>

K,

I can relate to having to learn to hold a sometimes sharp tongue. I had to learn to do that too and it was very, very difficult. I did get better to when it really mattered the most. It can be a constant challenge which I sometimes fail at.

One thing that helps is to remind myself: "to avoid being the cause of your spouses unhappiness".

Read:

Rules of Protection

But, I don't think you can achieve as much if the commitment is onesided.

Hi Faith....

How goes it, girl? I know how you feel about being jaded. That's where I've been for a long time.

I have always had a problem with cynicism. That's one of my downfalls. I don't like feeling duped! Yet, here I am, feeling stupid for having been duped by my own H for 3 years!

I do NOT trust him.

Thanks Trix.....

I am going over Love Busters. I need to know how to choose my words carefully when I talk to WH.

Last night he had band practice. He called me twice. I went out to eat with some friends.

When WH got home, he was not feeling well. So, since it was so late, and he was sick, I did not bring anything up.

Tonight, however, he will be home a little earlier. I will talk with him then.

This morning, I did my ritual of checking cell phones. It seems SO strange that a man who is usually on his phones almost continually, hardly uses them now.

He used to call his work phone voice mail all the time. Even late at night, and on the weekends. Now, it looks like he never calls it. I think he and OW are communicating thru their work voice mails. I've thought this for a while.

He also used to turn his work cell phone off when his crew was done for the day. Now, he leaves it on all the time, except when he comes in at night, and leaves his phones in the car.

This is a issue we fought over several times after he got his apartment. I was not able to get ahold of him at night if something happened. He insisted he needed to turn his cell phones off at night so people wouldn't call him all the time. So, he got a pager. Also very suspicious.

It all seems fishy. I'm pretty sure he is now erasing calls as soon as he makes them.

After looking over the 3 States of Marriage, I can say that we are in the state of withdrawl. I'm withdrawn from WH because I think he is still in contact with OW.

He is in withdrawl from me because he thinks everything looks like it's going well on the surface, for him anyway. If I don't bring anything up, things are good. Keep that wall up, baby!

Sometimes, this all seems like a game. But the prize is very dear. And loss would be very complete.

K