Aussieswife, I’ve searched for a thread where this topic was once discussed on the “In Recovery” board. Here it is: OW/OM appology to other person's FS? . Pay attention to the posts from a FWW with the name Sincere1. She also sends an apology to the OM’s W and it was worthwhile for both of them. It was healing expereince to both her and the OM’s W and helped both of them to leave the past behind and move on.

My personal opinion is that an apology is always appropriate when it’s meant sincerely.

Suzet

:::::::::::Why is it that people can forgive their WS but not the OP?

I would think it would be harder to forgive your spouse since they were the one who promised to be true?

So many on here have and would take their WS back but think the OP is absolute scum of earth and not worthy of forgivness or feelings or anything else.

I just don't get that logic.

Weaver, You always ask such interesting questions. The most obvious answer is nature. Think of the animal kingdom (to which we belong). We fight for what is ours. We chose a certain partner because of their suitablility as someone who will best pass on our genetic material to our shared offspring. We don't want any interlopers because interlopers might interfer with the work we have put in to passing on our genetic material - and it's so deeply ingrained in us to protect our pair bond from other genetic influences (cept it seems to go somewhat wrong when a S becomes wayward?? The chemistry can overpower the logic if you get my drift). Lions will eat cubs fathered by anotehr lion, though god knows how they know. Psychic I guess! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I would like to claim special dispensation for wanting to choke the life out of my h's OW. She is a domestic maid working for a family next door to us (we live in asia). She; 26 yrs old and desperately poor when my husband once said hello to her on our building's bus. She took that as a sign of weakness (an opening to a better life) and though he was 50 yrs old, and married with kids the same age as her, she wrote him a suggestive letter about an illicit relationship. I have the letter. She played on the vulnerablities of an aging man. Poor fool actually believed a girl half his age was attracted to him. We had had a long happy marriage and got on extremely well always. But circumstances had conspired against us and I was spending a lot of time in our home country (OZ) with family problems, dying mother etc.

Affairs happen where there is desire and opportunity. The 26 yo was attractive with an hour glass figure. I'm attractive for my age, but I'm not 26 any more. So, I feel tremendous animosity towards a slip of a girl who had so much gall she was willing to intrude on a successful family and try to fulfil her ambitions e.g. to get money from my husband. And yes I think my H is a scum bag for getting involved with such an obvious schemer.


Aussieswife:

Hi. A fellow Aussie here. Living in Asia for now. Keep posting won't you? I always respond well to very sorry WS's who get what they've done.

I think a lot depends on what the wronged wife is like. My H's maid friend said sorry to me, just after I told her I would kill her if she ever went near my husband again. (yep, I said that) She offered her hand to shake and in sparse English she said she regretted it - mostly because she thought she'd be sprung to her employer and sent back to the loser country she came from (plus husband didn't give her any money - so it had all been for nothing). I refused to shake her hand and said I would never forgive her - she didn't seem to understand why. To be honest, if I thought there was some way of harming her without harming myself I would do it. I used to be a pacificst before all this. It's nature and it's ugly. Wish I was a better person but I'm not.

AN

Anyname,

I love your honesty! The young asian girl is to be pittied, of course not by you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I would not back down if a woman was TRYING to destroy my family, I think this is the difference, intent. I guess I'm not married so my opinions are a bit different than those who are. BUT if someone ever messed with my daughter, there would be no mercy from me. And maybe that is how spouse's feel about each other. Nature? Absolutely. Thank you for making me examine my question more thoroughly.

Is that really true about lions? That makes me sick. I woun't tell DD, that'll have her in tears for sure. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Interestingly weaver, my FWW is the OP to OM GF. And SHE tell sme she doesn;t hate her. Think "she's a silly cow who should know better at her age than to be head turned by her BFs "vulgar flattery". But then she knows OMs predatory ways of old. Maybe if my FWW had predated OM I would feel differently, like OM GF. I dunno though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by anyname:
<strong> :::::::::::Why is it that people can forgive their WS but not the OP?

I think a lot depends on what the wronged wife is like. My H's maid friend said sorry to me, just after I told her I would kill her if she ever went near my husband again. (yep, I said that) She offered her hand to shake and in sparse English she said she regretted it - mostly because she thought she'd be sprung to her employer and sent back to the loser country she came from (plus husband didn't give her any money - so it had all been for nothing). I refused to shake her hand and said I would never forgive her - she didn't seem to understand why. To be honest, if I thought there was some way of harming her without harming myself I would do it. I used to be a pacificst before all this. It's nature and it's ugly. Wish I was a better person but I'm not.

AN </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi there Anyname

I gather from reading some of your posts that you aren't sure you want to rebuild a relationship with your Husband?

If someone had of tapped me on the shoulder 28 yrs ago as we stood at the alter and told me how my life and my heart would be yanked out from underneath me in the future, I wouldn't have said "I do". Your mate should be the one person in the world who should NEVER be disloyal or dishonest. How can you move on with someone new when it's just been proven in such a devestating way that we can be so WRONG about people? Even the ones who have looked through our eyes into our souls. I my case, I am trying to move on from here and work on building a newer, stronger relationship with my wayward wife. In the back of my mind I will never forget but I'm convinced I can forgive!
What might change? In my case it will be standing up for what I think is right for me. We all make allowances for the little things that our mate does that makes us feel not quite right but we chose to ignore it because all by itsself it isn't a big deal and we love them and we know that they didn't try to make us feel bad. But I've discovered (thanks to help from a councillor and postings on this site) that these little things add up to a lot over time. Much like the proverbial snowball rolling downhill.

So AN, what are the chances of you putting all the pieces of your previous life back together into something good?

Brian

<small>[ October 21, 2004, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: bbrriiaann ]</small>

First I'd like to thank everyone again your responses have helped a lot.

I spent am hour discussing this with Aussie tonight and he is ok if I want to do this but thinks I should check witht he MIL first to see if it would help or hurt.
And I told him I would not be sending it but the MIL may do so. That means neither he or I will have contact and with the way he feels about the OM even though I have insisted I am just as much at fault, its probably safer too for all concerned.

So I'm ringing her tomorrow and we'll see what we'll see I guess.

Rosiepiesix

I don't think anyones answered you yet on your question so I will have a go from some recent hard won experience and all the things I have read here.

If you still want to reconcile and the affair is getting in the way of that so you feel you have no option but to separate, then by all means advise the OW's husband.

This is not revenge but a method of unsettleing the affair and making it open up to the real world, helping to end the fantasy.
Suddenly both partners have the whole world looking at them.

Now if you don't want a reconcilation, there are two things to consider,

revenge as you said, which will leave you feeling pretty empty and the anger & bitterness probably won't go away one bit;

or

The right of the OW's Husband to know he's been cheated on and its ongoing. He deserves the right to choose if he wants to stay married or leave as my H or any other spouse does.

Just look closely on how you will feel for your own health here. If you thinks its right to let the husband know then do so and give him the complete info, don't let the poor guy hang not knowing what has happened. I've seen first hand how keeping info ffrom people can cause a lot of hurt.

I'm sorry you have had to come here but why don't you post separately and see what advice you may be able to get?
There are some very good people here with so many years of experience and they care. From the 4x4's to the support it's here as well as a good plan to have a chance at saving your M if you want that.

I hope you can find some comfort during this terrible time for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Well I contacted OMs mum and she agreed to ring her DIL and ask on general principal if she would welcome an apology and undertaking NEVER to contact her family directly or indirectly again.
She rang back last night as I was getting ready to pick up Aussie from the Barracks - he was drinking with the NCO's & junior officers in his batt Fri night because it looks like they will be deployed soon which I can't just cope with right now - anyway she said her DIL was very cautious but would feel more secure if she knew for sure the A was truly over for EVER.

Well I've been writing a short note just saying I am sorry I have caused her pain and interfered in her family, I say I will never try to contact her H in any way ever again. That this is the last she will ever hear of me.

Need to polish it up a bit but I want it simple and short because nothing I say will ever make it better for her.

So there we are. Just need Aussie to Ok it and off it goes to OM's Mum by post along with her private phone number & PO Box.
I hope it helps but will never know which is probably good for me. I want that part of my life over.

Oh & Bob, a message from Aussie for you....what a bad man hehehe ( evil Laugh ) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ October 23, 2004, 03:27 AM: Message edited by: aussieswife ]</small>

Aussieswife if youPOJAed that with Aussie, even if it backfires it was a joint decision so all part of your adventure together. Good luck.

Oh, and tell Aussie I've come round to his way of thinking in my revenge fantasies - a cricket bat is deffo the way to go for Bob's shin modification exercise for OM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Weaver, I love programs about big cats and yes, I'm sure I heard the male of the pride will kill the cubs of another male lion. I am with your daughter on this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Brian:

::::What might change? In my case it will be standing up for what I think is right for me. We all make allowances for the little things that our mate does that makes us feel not quite right but we chose to ignore it because all by itsself it isn't a big deal and we love them and we know that they didn't try to make us feel bad.

Greetings from distant shores! You seem to be understanding things a lot faster than me.


"""But I've discovered (thanks to help from a councillor and postings on this site) that these little things add up to a lot over time. Much like the proverbial snowball rolling downhill.

Yes, it's scary. I think I'm an idealist. I thought that deep love meant that my relationship was protected from harm. And I think we would have gone our whole life unmolested by unfaithfulness had I not left my huband in HK so much on his own. HK is a very artificial place, with money coming out everyone's ears! It can change a persons value system, and alter their 'life model'. I really don't believe my H would have gone looking for an affair, but when it arrived in the letter box (signed, sealed and delivered), I think he was so mesmerized by a pretty young woman that he lost perspective about how horribly inappropriate it was for him to behave in such a low down way. Truly, it was nothing like him. I think he thought he could dabble without going too far - but he didn't realise that once he showed interest in the girl that she would keep the pressure on him because she wanted money from him - she didn't care about him or the trouble she was bringing into his life. I know he tried to get rid of her (have seen evidence of that), but he is such a people pleaser that he tried to be nice about it and of course that wouldn't work with a leach like her!

:::So AN, what are the chances of you putting all the pieces of your previous life back together into something good?

I really don't know. I'm very disgusted with him. I have always despised aging men who think young asian women are there for their sexual enjoyment. Two of our closest friends have been badly burned with serious health problems because of the same deal as my husband.

My H is a very humble these days. He does everything he can to make it up to me. He bought the mega diamond earrings and buys flowers all the time and cooks and helps in the house etc (he's a regular Brian!!!!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (Is that a fair joke, because I don't mean to be disrespectful to you?!) Actually, I don't really need those things but he wants to do anything that will make himself indispensible to me. I don't want to see him slaving after me (well, just a little is ok). I don't mind doing that stuff, but I think this is the way it has to be for now. I suppose time will sort it out. But Brian, we had the best life before all this. We used to laugh so much. I really wonder how you are meant to put something so horrible behind you and start over.

AN ps how are things in your household?

AN,

I realize you don't really want to hear from me but something you said seems to cry out for a response. Perhaps it might help you.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, it's scary. I think I'm an idealist. I thought that deep love meant that my relationship was protected from harm. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In all of my life I have never heard of a life paradigm (including all religions) that taught, expoused, or believed that people or relationships were protected from harm.

Nor have I heard of any that claimed that love, deep love, somehow kept us from being human. AN, humans fail. All of us have failed in our life.

It seems to me that you need to consider that deep love is the thing one needs for a relationship to survive our human failings. I know you are deeply disappointed and hurt. I also know that there is nothing your H can do to make it right or prove to you that he is NOT human. He failed AN. It seems to me the question is what does one do AFTER they fail.

In the case of your H his love for you is driving him to do his best to be the best man he can be. It may not be enough for you, but I think you need to acknowledge it is his love for you driving this. And if you do, perhaps your love for him will drive you to forgive him and accept him as truely your H once again.

Just some thoughts.

Take care,

JL

JL, I've spent hours and hours writing back to you. But I've deleted my comments over and over. I just can't write to you. We are on different wave lengths. Truly, I started writing back to you 24 hours ago and haven't looked at any other posts. I really have tried. Oh and I have acknowledged my H's efforts several times. I've told him he's got amazing sticking power. He says he tells himself to hang in, hang in, hang in.

Of course I'm worth it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You really are very sweet for having another go at our situation.

AN

>>>>>>>Greetings from distant shores! You seem to be understanding things a lot faster than me.

I work very hard (in my career) to ensure that anger doesn’t affect my ability to negotiate. The difficult thing is trying to put a logical spin on something that is so personal and emotional! Keeping things as much in the 3rd person has helped me immeasurably.


>>>>>>>>Yes, it's scary. I think I'm an idealist. I thought that deep love meant that my relationship was protected from harm. And I think we would have gone our whole life unmolested by unfaithfulness had I not left my huband in HK so much on his own. HK is a very artificial place, with money coming out everyone's ears! It can change a persons value system, and alter their 'life model'. I really don't believe my H would have gone looking for an affair, but when it arrived in the letter box (signed, sealed and delivered), I think he was so mesmerized by a pretty young woman that he lost perspective about how horribly inappropriate it was for him to behave in such a low down way. Truly, it was nothing like him. I think he thought he could dabble without going too far - but he didn't realise that once he showed interest in the girl that she would keep the pressure on him because she wanted money from him - she didn't care about him or the trouble she was bringing into his life. I know he tried to get rid of her (have seen evidence of that), but he is such a people pleaser that he tried to be nice about it and of course that wouldn't work with a leach like her!

The sad truth is, men very easily fall into the trap of big head, little head thinking. In many cases I really believe the line “it was just sex”. The problem is, women filter the information through their own reality filter and just find it impossible to understand/believe. I’m not excusing the behaviour but I understand that men don’t seem to need the emotional side of of a relationship to have exciting sex. There are a lot more female hookers than the other way around!

>>>>>>>>>I really don't know. I'm very disgusted with him. I have always despised aging men who think young asian women are there for their sexual enjoyment. Two of our closest friends have been badly burned with serious health problems because of the same deal as my husband.

Two things. A very long time friend of mine/ours is an absolutely stunning Chinese lady. Wow! At one point we were talking about relationships and the men/women thing and she told me she had a big problem with Caucasian men because they (we) seemed to be wired differently than the Oriental men she new. We all seemed to be lustful, sex starved, slavering, rude,….etc. (me excepted, of course) and she didn’t know why but it did make her uncomfortable. My thoughts on that were if one likes a trim, athletic build and appreciates a culture where girls are taught from childhood to appreciate their men, then Asian girls score very highly! Also, around here anyways, there aren’t nearly as many asian women as there are other ethnic groups. Exclusivity is a powerful motivator. Does this make any sense to you? We tend to hold our own to a higher standard though. Someone else’s indiscretion doesn’t bother us nearly so much! Would you feel the same way had he gone out and hired a prostitute for the same services she gave him?

>>>>>>>>My H is a very humble these days. He does everything he can to make it up to me. He bought the mega diamond earrings and buys flowers all the time and cooks and helps in the house etc (he's a regular Brian!!!!) (Is that a fair joke, because I don't mean to be disrespectful to you?!) Actually, I don't really need those things but he wants to do anything that will make himself indispensable to me. I don't want to see him slaving after me (well, just a little is ok). I don't mind doing that stuff, but I think this is the way it has to be for now. I suppose time will sort it out. But Brian, we had the best life before all this. We used to laugh so much. I really wonder how you are meant to put something so horrible behind you and start over.

Yea, no kidding. And no disrespect taken, btw. When I scold my dogs they go away but they are back in no time winding around my legs and licking my hand, in essence saying that I was still number 1 in their eyes and for me not to be mad at them anymore. You H needs to lick your hand but he doesn’t have the “programming” to know how to do it right, hence the flowers and such. The trap is he could be doing things that he can’t keep up if the wound heals. Then maybe the relationship will be under pressure again because as you say, how can you pick yourself up, dust yourself off and move on while at the same time preserving yourself and building a new relationship with the SO when the past is so fresh in your mind But IMHO, you should let him do these things for you…its helping him to repair himself and to make himself worthy in his own eyes.

>>>>>>>>AN ps how are things in your household?

She told me she was going to move out into her own place or move in with a friend for awhile. That was Fri pm. Her concern was I might not be here when she got back. After a pregnant silence I told her that I probably wouldn’t be. If she left our chances for resolution dropped substantially and at that point I was going to have to protect myself and I couldn’t do that if she on again, off again. That was an emotional evening. Last night (sun) I gave her a letter describing my feelings as opposed to what I thought. She came into our room after reading this over and there was a definite change in her demeanour. I told her she was getting this letter because I couldn’t stick around not knowing what she was going to decide to do next. Like maybe she just wouldn’t come home from work because she couldn’t face me as she walked out the door with her suitcase. I think it finally hit home that it wasn’t about a fun little fling anymore. This was serious S**T and a lot hung in the balance. She would probably live the rest of her life alone, as would I, and she would have to live with the knowledge that she would lose just about every friend we have and she would have ruined our dreams for our future. We will see how it goes. A new therapist will be auditioned by her this week who actually tries to put peoples’ lives back together as opposed to just listening to someone vent. There is always hope.

And just so I’m not hijacking this thread, I would feel a lot better about this whole thing if the OM had of at least sent me an email apologizing for his involvement in our lives. I can NEVER forgive him this but I would have respected the gesture. I still wish him harm for what he caused though.

brian

:::::::::I told her she was getting this letter because I couldn’t stick around not knowing what she was going to decide to do next. Like maybe she just wouldn’t come home from work because she couldn’t face me as she walked out the door with her suitcase. I think it finally hit home that it wasn’t about a fun little fling anymore. This was serious S**T and a lot hung in the balance. She would probably live the rest of her life alone, as would I,

Hi Brian, Wow! You really are a smart man. Your wife has known you for so long but she's lost sight of how incredibly lucky she is. If you play your cards right, she will find her way back to you and be really happy that you were so generous spirited with her. She's very messed up by letting this OM into her life. Every time I read of the aftermath of A's, I feel angry that one of the partners let this cr*p in. It so seldom brings anything good to anyone. The OP, the WS, the BS are all devastated by it. Though it sounds like the OM in your case is too self centered to be devastated - and when he's wreaked enough havoc in your life, he'll move on to someone else's life to tear apart. Karma - where are you???

Anyway, you have excellent instincts. Your wife will be a little bit uneasy (alot) that while she's stuffing around with Mr Casanova, you might meet someone wonderful (coz she knows one mans trash is another mans treasure)(**the sentiments I mean!!**) and when your Ws ready to acknowledge that she's made a mess of things, you will already be snapped up and gone from her in every way.

:::and she would have to live with the knowledge that she would lose just about every friend we have

I don't know your wife but I would think the friends thing would be further down the list to the thought of you replacing her with another woman before she's had a chance to do her thing and get back to you. I don't know why, but friends and colleagues are largely overlooked during infidelity.

I know that I believed that infidelity should end a marriage (previously). But there I was staying in the marriage. You know what I feared the most? That I would stand on my principals (and very fine ones they are!) and while I was making my point and giving myself about a year to decide what I wanted to do, that some lonely woman would clap onto my H and close down the option of us getting back together. Now my H's not a fantastic looking man, but he's got a nice face and a quick, keen sense of humor and he's gentle and easy going and the perfect addition to any social setting (sounds like a tv advert!).

Men like him are in need by divorcees, widows and spinsters. And he's such a softy that as long as someone took an interest in him he'd be a lamb to the slaughter - even if she couldn't hold a candle to me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Interestingly, my H has been terrified I'd leave him because he thinks I'd be snapped up the minute I was on my own.

So what's this deal with the insecurities we have about our partners finding someone else? This is what I think is likely to bother your wife more than anything, and I think you did well to tell her that you would not wait around. That's scary for her. That makes her realise you are not a doormat. You are someone with self respect. You are someone worth taking notice of. (unlike the sleaz she's involved with - we all know that he's not going to stand by her for the long haul)

We are instinctive (intuative?), the results of millions of years of evolution. Your wife has to be afraid of gambling pretty much the perfect life for a very uncertain future basically coz she's all confused and can't think straight. Actually the books that talk about love and infatuation (I spent hours reading in book shops after d-day) say that people make terrible decisions under the influence of infatuation and ruin their lives. When it wears off, as it mostly does, they are left with the results of their bad choices and the disbelief that they could have been so stupid.

"""And just so I’m not hijacking this thread,

Well, most people don't mind about hijacking as long as the participants are getting some help. If Aussiewife is a typical Aussie like moi, then she won't mind in the least.

:::But IMHO, you should let him do these things for you…its helping him to repair himself and to make himself worthy in his own eyes.

How interesting. I have often wondered how he lives with himself - not for being unfaithful but for being conned. That's probably more shameful than the sexual aspect, because we've always prided ourselves in being astute (well after we got over being Jehovah's Witnesses twently yrs ago, that is) Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. I think it's accutely embarrassing for him that he didn't spot the scam - though he didn't spot it because it was sexual in nature. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

:::: At one point we were talking about relationships and the men/women thing and she told me she had a big problem with Caucasian men because they (we) seemed to be wired differently than the Oriental men she new. We all seemed to be lustful, sex starved, slavering, rude,….etc. (me excepted, of course) and she didn’t know why but it did make her uncomfortable. My thoughts on that were if one likes a trim, athletic build and appreciates a culture where girls are taught from childhood to appreciate their men, then Asian girls score very highly!

Asian women aren't all the same. There aren't too many Asian countries left where girls are raised to appreciate their men (use them maybe but not appreciate them) - I'm not sure there are any left. I must ask my Japanese neighbour (in OZ), but she seems to live a life pretty much independant of her British huband so not sure she'll be much help. She hates housework and her huband is far more Japanese when it comes to a 'place for everything and everything in it's place'. I think many Asian women are not very different to western women now. Your Chinese friend is just a little refined,pr obably her individual personality. Are you suggesting that because she's asian, men treat her with less respect? Certainly this happens here.

::::Also, around here anyways, there aren’t nearly as many asian women as there are other ethnic groups. Exclusivity is a powerful motivator. Does this make any sense to you? We tend to hold our own to a higher standard though. Someone else’s indiscretion doesn’t bother us nearly so much! Would you feel the same way had he gone out and hired a prostitute for the same services she gave him?

I apologise for the length of this - I hope I write it interestingly enough to entertain you if nothing else.

Actually he did go with a prostitute. His situation was a convoluted form of prostitution. He just didn't see it that way at the time coz he was flattered by her unexpected approach to him. She was pretty, she was 26 and she was confident.

She works as a full time maid and is not allowed to leave the house unless on an errand - only gets one day off per fortnight so most of their friendship took place on the phone and in H's head. Because of the timing, he only met her once on his own in the first 7 weeks. She came to the airport to meet his returning from a consultancy. He was suddenly confronted with the reality of meeting a girl half his age, and an obvious maid (they are not chinese, they are imported for domestic work and they are clearly maids). What had seemed exciting and appealing suddenly felt rather scary and stressful in the flesh. They were awkward together and conversation was difficult. Theirs was not a passionate relationship. Husband felt out of his depth, and a little controlled by the girl.

He maintains they only had a goodnite kiss that nite - they were far too nervous with each other alone in their new roles. Yes H desired her sexually, but he didn't want to act like a predatory sleaz so all he got to do was kiss her when she was leaving for her 8pm curfew.

After that she organised to spend her next day off with him after I was off the scene again - so that was five weeks later. We had spent three lovely weeks together and he had tried to talk me into staying longer so he could have an excuse not to go out with her when I was gone. I tried to stay one more week but couldn't get on a flight.

Their first full day together was horribly stressful for my H. Can you imagine trying to go out all day in public with a girl half your age as your date, and not be seen by friends and colleagues? Yikes! H was stressed out of his brain. Plus, she was hard work. Poor English and nothing in common. She's muslem, she wouldn't even have an opinion on the bombing of the Twin Towers. She looked great and he felt sexually attracted to her but by then she'd told him she was a virgin, so he believed it wasn't going to go very far. He thought they'd just hang out a bit and he'd enjoy her attention with maybe some sexual excitment without intercourse. But she talked about money incessantly and gave him her hard luck story which went on and on and on. He found himself being careful what he said so that he didn't give her an opportunity to ask for money.

His interest would have petered out that nite but she allowed him to touch her rather ample young breasts, and snog on with her for a while. He started to feel dirty and ashamed. He talked to his friend who knew about it about how to get rid of her without causing trouble with her. She had worked three weeks in a row when I was visiting so she could get two Sundays off in a row - he was oblidged to take her out the following Sunday again but before that happened she phoned him and asked him to *lend* her over $500US. Twice her monthly salary. He wished even harder that he'd not started it in the first place. He begun to compute that she was only with him for money. He must have felt insulted because all this time he'd thought he looked much younger than his 50 yrs and that she'd actually found him attractive.

He had made up his mind to end it after the next day out (the breasts were very large apparently and I'm not so stupid as to not know they were a factor in keeping him in) besides he's a people pleaser and wouldn't have the heart to call her and tell her it was off so abruptly.

He foolishly took the digital camera the next Sunday because it would help fill in the gaps in the conversation he claimed.

Back at our place after another stressful day of endlessly watching for familiar faces and her talking about inane drivel. They made out on our bed stipped to the waist but when another advance was attempted she stopped him again. Because it was a little more intimate and even more awkward than the previous week, H felt terrible after she got up and got dressed dispassionately and making him feel that his time was up. He was left wondering why he wanted this as it was making him feel so bad about himself.

She'd asked for the money for her mobile phone bill (which mostly consisted of her looking up words in the dictionary) and with the other expenses of the day he felt really fed up.

He came from the bedroom and gave her a stern talking to that it had to stop. That he wasn't leaving his family for her and they were not suited and it was wrong for her to risk her job to be with him and he risk his reputation to be with her etc. She wrote a letter to him on our computer as he talked. I have the letter. "I miss you already. Maybe if I was number one in your life I wouldn't leave you alone so much" (not quite that coherant) "I can see that you are a good husband exactly because you love your families even though you have an affair with another womEn but be your girl friend be a little bit difficult because she must be waiting for the right time to be with you and you so afraid with your wife" her words.

So H thought she'd got the message. But she was back on the phone the next nite again. He didn't get another opportunity to see her after that. He bought a gift for her and hid it behind the trash can outside her flat. He also marked down another of her days off in his diary when he thought I wouldn't be around after I changed my travel dates - so I gather his good intentions to end it had fallen off some. He'd been with me in Australia and he was uncharacteristically bad tempered and for the first time in forever we hadn't got along. I was glad to see him on his flight back to HK and he suggested I didn't come up the following week after all - that I should go and visit my dying mother instead.


I came back and I think he'd renewed his commitment to ending it, after that weekend with me as we were back to getting along really well. I found the photo's on the computer on the Monday nite by accident - he thought he'd deleted them. I hadn't suspected a thing.

So, that was my H's affair. He didn't think it was an A because he hadn't had sex with her. In the photo's they posed as a couple with his arms around her. He had initially thought he'd have sex with her - because that's what maids here are renown for. They will do anything for a better life. But he was seriously confused about why she had approached him and had chosen to believe it was because she found him attractive. Basically there was a mix of naivity, foolishness, deceitfulness and sleaziness. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I'd known him since I was 14 and these behaviors were all new to me.

Of course I've put him right on everything including that he looks old for his age - I laughed recently when a 25 yo serving at our local pub in OZ asked him if he was having the pensioner meal deal? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

He's really very, very repentant and could kick himself to death for being so stupid. He will try very hard to do everything in his power to make it up to me. He believes himself to have acted VERY badly and so he did. He has given up the friendship with his friend who helped him and he spends every minute with me, being totally transparent about where he is etc. I think you hit the nail on the head. He feels there is a debt to pay and if he licks my hands like your dogs tell you they will forgive you for shouting at them (hehehe), he will feel better for knowing he's done his best to apologise. He might feel he's a worthwhile person again.


With you and your wife. This is what you are aiming to achieve. To get thru all this and back to the peaceful, safe, secure joy of two people sharing their lives together. Your wife doesn't realise this yet, but your shared life, lived as you lived it previously, is far more fulfilling than the occasional torrid sex with a selfish cold-hearted man who will dump her when he gets tired of her. There is no comparison actually. Not that I'd know what torrid sex with a cold hearted assh*le is like, unless my H qualities! The hard part is getting her past the addiction and getting her to her senses - then you are on the home straight after that. Only time will fully restore your happiness and life together and time can really drag when you are sad.

AN

Brian, This is an URL to an interesting summery of of how our Ss slowly rationalise their infidelity. It's a response to something I was playing around with a few months ago. Ignore my post and read A.M.Martin's response to me. I think Together Alone wrote it, though it doesn't say so there. It's a worthwhile read. AN

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=028704;p...

>>>>>>Hi Brian, Wow! You really are a smart man. Your wife has known you for so long but she's lost sight of how incredibly lucky she is. If you play your cards right, she will find her way back to you and be really happy that you were so generous spirited with her. She's very messed up by letting this OM into her life. Every time I read of the aftermath of A's, I feel angry that one of the partners let this cr*p in. It so seldom brings anything good to anyone. The OP, the WS, the BS are all devastated by it. Though it sounds like the OM in your case is too self centered to be devastated - and when he's wreaked enough havoc in your life, he'll move on to someone else's life to tear apart. Karma - where are you???

I wouldn’t say I’m particularly smart…heck, most of the time I can’t even spell!
But you’re right. I think he would move on to the next conquest pretty soon. I wonder why his wife of 18 years told him to get out and never contact her again??? My big challenge, is not looking like a victim in front of her. That’s tough. We can read each other pretty well and she sees through the brave front. I’m wondering if I should be staying away from her as opposed to doing the “His needs, Her needs” stuff.

>>>>>Anyway, you have excellent instincts. Your wife will be a little bit uneasy (alot) that while she's stuffing around with Mr Casanova, you might meet someone wonderful (coz she knows one mans trash is another mans treasure)(**the sentiments I mean!!**) and when your Ws ready to acknowledge that she's made a mess of things, you will already be snapped up and gone from her in every way.

I believe her when she says she has stayed away from him. I don’t think she can look me in the eye and lie to me…at least not when I’m truth reading her. But you might be right, although I don’t know how quick I’d be to get close to anyone again. It took 28 years to discover that the one person in the world who would never ever be dishonest with you, was. Do I want that again…ever? No way. Trust no one. Sort of means spending the rest of your life alone, doesn’t it?


>>>>>>I don't know your wife but I would think the friends thing would be further down the list to the thought of you replacing her with another woman before she's had a chance to do her thing and get back to you. I don't know why, but friends and colleagues are largely overlooked during infidelity.

She would be incredibly bothered by the scandal of the whole thing. It’s just not her. I’m wondering about contacting her colleagues and letting them know what she’s been up to. More to hurt the OM, though. The friend issue would be huge. These are friends of 20-30 yr standing who we have a lot of affection and respect for.

>>>>>>I know that I believed that infidelity should end a marriage (previously). But there I was staying in the marriage. You know what I feared the most? That I would stand on my principals (and very fine ones they are!) and while I was making my point and giving myself about a year to decide what I wanted to do, that some lonely woman would clap onto my H and close down the option of us getting back together. Now my H's not a fantastic looking man, but he's got a nice face and a quick, keen sense of humor and he's gentle and easy going and the perfect addition to any social setting (sounds like a tv advert!).

Men like him are in need by divorcees, widows and spinsters. And he's such a softy that as long as someone took an interest in him he'd be a lamb to the slaughter - even if she couldn't hold a candle to me!

Interestingly, my H has been terrified I'd leave him because he thinks I'd be snapped up the minute I was on my own.


It sounds like we both need an infusion of self confidence (mine is down a quart right now)

>>>>>>>So what's this deal with the insecurities we have about our partners finding someone else? This is what I think is likely to bother your wife more than anything, and I think you did well to tell her that you would not wait around. That's scary for her. That makes her realise you are not a doormat. You are someone with self respect. You are someone worth taking notice of. (unlike the sleaz she's involved with - we all know that he's not going to stand by her for the long haul)

Actually, what I meant was I wouldn’t piss and moan and stop living just because she decided that she needed space and time alone. The longer it took for her to find herself, the more I would be getting used to being without her.

>>>>>>We are instinctive (intuitive?), the results of millions of years of evolution. Your wife has to be afraid of gambling pretty much the perfect life for a very uncertain future basically coz she's all confused and can't think straight. Actually the books that talk about love and infatuation (I spent hours reading in book shops after d-day) say that people make terrible decisions under the influence of infatuation and ruin their lives. When it wears off, as it mostly does, they are left with the results of their bad choices and the disbelief that they could have been so stupid.

I hope so. I do a very good job of cleaning and such. Maybe for a little ‘spice’ I could get some kind of a French Butler outfit for house work<g>!


>>>>>>>How interesting. I have often wondered how he lives with himself - not for being unfaithful but for being conned. That's probably more shameful than the sexual aspect, because we've always prided ourselves in being astute (well after we got over being Jehovah's Witnesses twently yrs ago, that is) Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. I think it's accutely embarrassing for him that he didn't spot the scam - though he didn't spot it because it was sexual in nature.

Men don’t have a very good support network. We figure it out on our own, or go to some equally clueless male friend who remembers, in a movie, how Cary Grant got Audrey back by getting flowers and jewellery for her. We (men) suck at making up! You’re right though…hit us in the smarts department and we really take that to heart. I sure don’t like looking stupid. I’m surprised I’m not used to it!

>>>>>>Asian women aren't all the same. There aren't too many Asian countries left where girls are raised to appreciate their men (use them maybe but not appreciate them) - I'm not sure there are any left. I must ask my Japanese neighbour (in OZ), but she seems to live a life pretty much independant of her British huband so not sure she'll be much help. She hates housework and her huband is far more Japanese when it comes to a 'place for everything and everything in it's place'. I think many Asian women are not very different to western women now. Your Chinese friend is just a little refined,pr obably her individual personality. Are you suggesting that because she's asian, men treat her with less respect? Certainly this happens here.

No. What I was inferring was she stands out in a crowd because of her exotic beauty which I think, tends to fuel fantasies. The “shallow end of the gene pool” males that one runs into tend to be rather obvious to women like her. A very good friend is a well connected Korean. He told me to find a nice Korean girl of high birth (he’d introduce me) and I’d be happy for the rest of my days…I wonder what he meant?


>>>>>I apologise for the length of this - I hope I write it interestingly enough to entertain you if nothing else.

Insight is never wasted!


>>>>>>>She works as a full time maid and is not allowed to leave the house unless on an errand - only gets one day off per fortnight so most of their friendship took place on the phone and in H's head. Because of the timing, he only met her once on his own in the first 7 weeks. She came to the airport to meet his returning from a consultancy. He was suddenly confronted with the reality of meeting a girl half his age, and an obvious maid (they are not chinese, they are imported for domestic work and they are clearly maids). What had seemed exciting and appealing suddenly felt rather scary and stressful in the flesh. They were awkward together and conversation was difficult. Theirs was not a passionate relationship. Husband felt out of his depth, and a little controlled by the girl.


I have been following your story on other threads. Mostly because it parallels mine in many subtle ways. And I feel my pain is somewhat similar to yours but mostly because you have actually responded with what I think, are very painfully learned life lessons and insight that I’m getting the benefit of.


>>>>>>>His interest would have petered out that nite but she allowed him to touch her rather ample young breasts, and snog on with her for a while. He started to feel dirty and ashamed. He talked to his friend who knew about it about how to get rid of her without causing trouble with her. She had worked three weeks in a row when I was visiting so she could get two Sundays off in a row - he was oblidged to take her out the following Sunday again but before that happened she phoned him and asked him to *lend* her over $500US. Twice her monthly salary. He wished even harder that he'd not started it in the first place. He begun to compute that she was only with him for money. He must have felt insulted because all this time he'd thought he looked much younger than his 50 yrs and that she'd actually found him attractive.

He had made up his mind to end it after the next day out (the breasts were very large apparently and I'm not so stupid as to not know they were a factor in keeping him in) besides he's a people pleaser and wouldn't have the heart to call her and tell her it was off so abruptly.


I think you are right. He realized this was going to go nowhere. He couldn’t run off with her or show her to his friends and he couldn’t get the affection or conversation thing going for him and he didn’t have any time with her to even think that this relationship would go anywhere. He was going to end it. The problem is he kept the photos as maybe a trophy. Even us old guys look in the mirror on occasion and try to suck our guts in! It helps if someone else finds us attractive (but not stupid)!



>>>>>I hadn't suspected a thing.

My trust was unshakeable. She said she was convinced I didn’t know on a conscious level but she suspected I knew on a cellular one. I sure did but I didn’t believe what my cells were telling me. I just felt uneasy.

>>>>>>So, that was my H's affair. He didn't think it was an A because he hadn't had sex with her. In the photo's they posed as a couple with his arms around her. He had initially thought he'd have sex with her - because that's what maids here are renown for. They will do anything for a better life. But he was seriously confused about why she had approached him and had chosen to believe it was because she found him attractive. Basically there was a mix of naivity, foolishness, deceitfulness and sleaziness. I'd known him since I was 14 and these behaviors were all new to me.

I still don’t know whether it was the sex with the OM or whether it was the casting aside of her vows and integrity and deciding that sex with him was acceptable. If they had been stopped just short of penetration (can I say that here) would that have changed the outcome and my feelings of betrayal? I don’t think so. In your case it was probably going to fizzle before they had done the deed BUT he went into it hoping for it and would have if he could of figured out a way to get there. I understand your feelings of betrayal…I don’t quite get the disgust part of it though.


>>>>>>He's really very, very repentant and could kick himself to death for being so stupid. He will try very hard to do everything in his power to make it up to me. He believes himself to have acted VERY badly and so he did. He has given up the friendship with his friend who helped him and he spends every minute with me, being totally transparent about where he is etc. I think you hit the nail on the head. He feels there is a debt to pay and if he licks my hands like your dogs tell you they will forgive you for shouting at them (hehehe), he will feel better for knowing he's done his best to apologise. He might feel he's a worthwhile person again.

There is nothing to compare on the “I’ve been a rotten person scale” meter than causing that kind of pain to someone you love. We are both looking at it from the outside. I imagine the view through their eyes is MUCH worse. A little pain will do them some good though.


>>>>>>With you and your wife. This is what you are aiming to achieve. To get thru all this and back to the peaceful, safe, secure joy of two people sharing their lives together. Your wife doesn't realise this yet, but your shared life, lived as you lived it previously, is far more fulfilling than the occasional torrid sex with a selfish cold-hearted man who will dump her when he gets tired of her. There is no comparison actually. Not that I'd know what torrid sex with a cold hearted assh*le is like, unless my H qualifies! The hard part is getting her past the addiction and getting her to her senses - then you are on the home straight after that. Only time will fully restore your happiness and life together and time can really drag when you are sad.

Thanks for the words. She is convinced he has a great fondness for her. And I sort of believe it, too. He’s not an a**hole, merely predatory, which is his character, though not necessarily a flaw. I would imagine at 46 there aren’t a lot of nice ladies to choose from if you were suddenly stuck in the “Dating Game” and she is certainly worth a serious look. What I don’t forgive is his trying to cut her out of the pack for his own use. I know the dating game thought doesn’t fill me with any pleasure! It must look pretty lonely from his point of view. If the shoe had of been on my foot and I’d professed dismay at what had happened to someone’s marriage because of my actions, I’d have had an apology out by email pdq. I wonder where it is?

More fog talk? She informs me she will not move to her girl friends house. It wouldn’t give her the time alone she thinks she needs. So she is still here, although she isn’t as contrite as I would have expected her (or wished her) to be. Progress? I think so. Am I on tenter hooks the whole time…you bet. Do I like it…no way. Am I going to back away from her a bit so I can put some distance between her and my pain…if it’s a good idea. I might even give a call to one of the separated ladies in the office to see if she wants to do a supper at the local pub some night this week. Not to rub her nose in it but to get my nose out of it. And we can compare notes.

Thanks AN

Do you know Anyname, I actually have admiration for your husband. In your own words, you have a husband who is totally repentant, trying to make amends, can express himself, etc etc. My WH is like a big blank. WE can't recover because HE won't even try. No matter what direction you take in life, at least you can turn around and say you gave your marriage your best shot despite the A. I won't have that chance and I HATE him for that. (Oops I said the H word - it's banned in my house!) TT

Gosh, I so understand being sorry! I too was/am so sorry, I was the OW, in an EA.

After just reading all of this, I realize I DID tell her I was so sorry. She had called me after she found out from an email. She was "checking" details of what her H had told her. She was sure it was physical. She couldn't belive that we just met for lunch and talked. I will never forget the conversation her saying "How many times did you sleep with my H?" I said "It So wasn't like that But, knowing I deserved her anger I just listened to her and in the end said "I am so sorry".. she asked What are you sorry for? I said for every talking to him in first place. And I truly am sorry! They are D now. My H and I have recovered and are happier than we have ever been. Sometimes that is hard to live with, but it has gotten easier.

Sorry for rambling.. but do understand wanting to appologize. I agree with everyone who says to work it out with your H.

<small>[ October 27, 2004, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: sohard ]</small>

:::::I wonder why his wife of 18 years told him to get out and never contact her again???

Brian, He was probably a serial cheater.

:::My big challenge, is not looking like a victim in front of her. That’s tough. We can read each other pretty well and she sees through the brave front. I’m wondering if I should be staying away from her as opposed to doing the “His needs, Her needs” stuff.

I can't really answer you on this. It's pretty hard to know how you should act to win back your W's heart. I'm an honest person, so I'd probably run with the reality of how you feel. Though somehow we can't help getting caught up with the 'games people play'. My kids collect books like The Art of Seduction, and How to Make Anyone Fall in Love with You - they share interesting gem with me sometimes. Maybe love is a game after all. I remember telling my H once that in a close marriage, you don't have to play games. (boy did I get that wrong!)

Initially after d-day I was so terribly hurt I went steadily down hill to being an emotional mess. I became clingy with H and it really upset my kids to see me like that. I looked pathetic. All skinny and crest fallen. I dropped 10+ lbs (I was unable to eat). Btw, your w is too thin! I'm 5ft 3 and at 110lbs I looked like I had aids. I've only gained back 5 of the 10 lbs I lost and I look healthy at 5ft 3 tall.

Obviously I don't know your relationship, so don't know whether your wife seeing how hurt you are will help. One can only hope.

::::I believe her when she says she has stayed away from him. I don’t think she can look me in the eye and lie to me…at least not when I’m truth reading her. But you might be right

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that your wife was still seeing the OM. I know I sounded like I was saying that but it wasn't exactly what I meant. More that she is still undecided about him - he's not off the scene as such, even if she isn't seeing him. I am sure it's possible that she might weaken and see him again (addiction is a powerful thing) - but I think she should be given the benefit of the doubt until proved otherwise.

::::It took 28 years to discover that the one person in the world who would never ever be dishonest with you, was.

Oh boy, now we are on the same wave length, with no static... Ouch!

:::Do I want that again…ever? No way. Trust no one. Sort of means spending the rest of your life alone, doesn’t it?

Are you sure, cause I could fix you up with a nice little Filipino girl! Sorry, that was tacky! (imagine your long term friends coping with that!!!)

There's something appealing about the thought of spending one's life alone after this kind of shock. The peacefulness of it.

:::::She would be incredibly bothered by the scandal of the whole thing. It’s just not her. I’m wondering about contacting her colleagues and letting them know what she’s been up to. More to hurt the OM, though. The friend issue would be huge. These are friends of 20-30 yr standing who we have a lot of affection and respect for.

I see. I think I'd hold off contacting her colleagues for the moment. Give her a little time to sort herself out. You cannot undo telling people once it's out - though others might already suspect. When it's generally known, you live under an ugly cloud hence forth. Your wife may be horribly upset with you for exposing her. Though I suspect that you should put this question to the forum - as I really don't know. I think I'd be afraid of severing the final bonds that exist between you.

::::It sounds like we both need an infusion of self confidence (mine is down a quart right now)

Of course, you've just received the biggest insult of your life. The stupid thing is that I only feel it around my H. I probably feel more attractive than I actually am around other men.


:::Actually, what I meant was I wouldn’t piss and moan and stop living just because she decided that she needed space and time alone. The longer it took for her to find herself, the more I would be getting used to being without her.

Are you sure of that? It took me a long time to come to terms with my M not being permanent. But I was just about to turn 50 (my birthday surprise!) and I met H just before I turned 15. That's a lot of time to get used to someone and think you know them.


:::I hope so. I do a very good job of cleaning and such. Maybe for a little ‘spice’ I could get some kind of a French Butler outfit for house work<g>!

Maybe it's time to hang up your rubber gloves! It's obviously not a look that does it for your wife! Why don't you get yourself a part time help and sit on your butt a bit more. I kinda have this image of you not being appreciated. I pretty much down tools when I found out what was going on. The next night we went out for a meal and I said "order me the moste expensive thing on the menu" - think I got the second most expensive thing but it didn't matter as I couldn't eat it anyway. I gave up caring about everything - stopped cooking, cleaning, gardening. I just couldn't see the point of any of it any more. I'd been doing all that stuff with a eager and willing heart and he kicked dirt in my face. What did I now care for any of those things? If he didn't do the work it didn't get done - he got to see how seriously I'd been affected. (not quite a plan A huh?)

:::Men don’t have a very good support network. We figure it out on our own, or go to some equally clueless male friend who remembers

e.g. my H claims he asked advice about whether to go out with the maid from his friend who was also cheating on his wife at the time. Speaking of equally clueless! That would be like asking Bin Laden whether we should blow up the Empire State Building!

::: You’re right though…hit us in the smarts department and we really take that to heart. I sure don’t like looking stupid. I’m surprised I’m not used to it!

We all get less precious with age! (and more stupid!)


No. What I was inferring was she stands out in a crowd because of her exotic beauty which I think, tends to fuel fantasies. The “shallow end of the gene pool” males that one runs into tend to be rather obvious to women like her.

C'mon, you're not telling me that there's a deep end of the male gene pool in which there are no b*stards? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I guess the point is that the deependers can find themselves in the shallow end without admitting that they swam there themselves.

:::A very good friend is a well connected Korean. He told me to find a nice Korean girl of high birth (he’d introduce me) and I’d be happy for the rest of my days…I wonder what he meant?

I was in Korea last month. It was fascinating as they look Chinese but seem more Japanese (the public bath house at the 5 star hotel was a hoot!). I appreciate that four days in Korea doesn't make me an expert. I also have an Aussie friend, living in Korea, who I met on the ex Jehovah's Witnesses discussion forum. She's my age and married to a Korean guy 15 yrs her junior. She's possitively scathing about Korean women. So much so that I asked her whether her husband was in earshot. Of course, she's not necessarily an expert either and she's coming from it from her own perculiar perspective (a significantly older foregin wife of a Korean), but she said and I quote: Korean women are b*tches and the richer and better looking they are the bigger the b*tch they are. That could describe a lot of cultures yeah?

Anyway, we have been out tonite with a friend who's been married to a Chinese lady for 25 yrs and he's well travelled in Asia. Plus another guy who lived here for ever. They say you are right and that there is a pecking order in Asian marriages where the wife, at least on the surface, takes second place to her husband. They said that it's well believed that the woman is the seat of the power in the marriage but to outside appearances the H must be seen to be the head. Clearly there's a lot I don't know.

:::I have been following your story on other threads. Mostly because it parallels mine in many subtle ways. And I feel my pain is somewhat similar to yours but mostly because you have actually responded with what I think, are very painfully learned life lessons and insight that I’m getting the benefit of.

My H says I have an analytical mind. I really do think understanding our Ss behavior is imperative to our accepting what's happened. Initially I didn't get any of it - it was TOTALLY outside my frame of reference. I never thought I would get it either - and some days, a lot of days, I still don't get it. But I have to recognise that often my hurt over-rides my ability to think rationally.


:::I think you are right. He realized this was going to go nowhere. He couldn’t run off with her or show her to his friends and he couldn’t get the affection or conversation thing going for him and he didn’t have any time with her to even think that this relationship would go anywhere. He was going to end it. The problem is he kept the photos as maybe a trophy. Even us old guys look in the mirror on occasion and try to suck our guts in! It helps if someone else finds us attractive (but not stupid)!

You seem to have captured the essence of the situation. You don't have a gut to suck in though - I read your post about "attractiveness"! But I get your drift.

:::My trust was unshakeable. She said she was convinced I didn’t know on a conscious level but she suspected I knew on a cellular one. I sure did but I didn’t believe what my cells were telling me. I just felt uneasy.

Ah, apparently there are very low key signs/behavioral changes that make us uneasy. I actually had a dream about discovering my H having sex with a maid who was a virgin. This was at the 3 or 4 week point (11 weeks in all). I told him about the dream by long distance phone as it had upset me a lot.

:::I still don’t know whether it was the sex with the OM or whether it was the casting aside of her vows and integrity and deciding that sex with him was acceptable.

Isn't it all one and the same? One minute it's the sex, the next minute it's the lying, the next minute its the lack of integrity. It's the whole thing. But men are meant to feel much worse than women about the act of sex. Women are meant to be much more hurt by the emotional attachement. But I'm not sure that is true. I honestly don't think I could have stayed with H if he'd had sex with that girl - but his intention was to have sex with her - so presumably the act itself would be too much for me. Yet he betrayed our relationship on every level.

I've been very impressed with some of the betrayed husbands on MBs who've come to terms with forgiveness. I sometimes think mens woolly brains are useful in infideltiy. Do men go over stuff to the same degree as women do? I hope you don't!


::If they had been stopped just short of penetration (can I say that here) would that have changed the outcome and my feelings of betrayal? I don’t think so.

In essence you and I are dealing with betrayal. Have you heard that comment "adultery isn't about sex it's about betrayal". In our case an attractive OP made our spouse feel special. Special enough to over ride all the good they shared with us. You tend to think you have the runs on the board to exempt you from this happening. But it's not about us, it's about weakness in them. Their vulnerability, their need for self validation. Their ability to lie to themselves and others. We thought they were safe because we felt safe. Yet another learning experience for us yeah?

:::I don’t quite get the disgust part of it though.

For another post.


:::There is nothing to compare on the “I’ve been a rotten person scale” meter than causing that kind of pain to someone you love. We are both looking at it from the outside. I imagine the view through their eyes is MUCH worse. A little pain will do them some good though.

Yeah, I couldn't deal with it. I would tear myself apart if I'd done that to my H. Plus I would feel so utterly worthless as a human being. Not sure that I could go on in all honestly. Have thought about it a lot.

:::Thanks for the words. She is convinced he has a great fondness for her. And I sort of believe it, too. He’s not an a**hole, merely predatory, which is his character, though not necessarily a flaw. I would imagine at 46 there aren’t a lot of nice ladies to choose from if you were suddenly stuck in the “Dating Game” and she is certainly worth a serious look.

I think Australians use the word arseh*le in a different context. If an Aussie says to you "you old bast*ard", it's a term on endearment. Men who cheat are always arseh*les. It's a given.

You are very generous spirited about the OM. You are being overly kind perhaps because you admire his choice in women? He may be fond of your wife, but at 46, he can date women as young as 30. He will almost certainly move on eventually.


:::What I don’t forgive is his trying to cut her out of the pack for his own use.

eh?


::::marriage because of my actions, I’d have had an apology out by email pdq. I wonder where it is?

Apologises come from nice folk.

::::I might even give a call to one of the separated ladies in the office to see if she wants to do a supper at the local pub some night this week. Not to rub her nose in it but to get my nose out of it.

Not what I'd do yet a while (mmm, do as I say, not as I do - story for another time). IMHO tread water for now. Don't give your wife any excuses to return to the arms of OM. Don't inflame her. Examine your motives in going out to a meal with one of the ladies at the office. YOUR NOSE ISN'T IN ANYTHING - you have one clean nose. Again, I'm no expert - I felt a red flag when I read that bit. Up to you of course.

oops I stayed up too late. Hope somethings I say help.
AN

>>>>>Brian, He was probably a serial cheater.

I tell that to Her but she can’t accept it, however she did say he hasn’t let her into his own past.

>>>>>>I can't really answer you on this. It's pretty hard to know how you should act to win back your W's heart. I'm an honest person, so I'd probably run with the reality of how you feel. Though somehow we can't help getting caught up with the 'games people play'. Maybe love is a game after all. I remember telling my H once that in a close marriage, you don't have to play games. (boy did I get that wrong!)

I think the people who study the “love game” are very convincing. Did you see the movie “Groundhog Day”? The star relived one day over and over again and he spent much of his time trying to make time with the OW. He learned all of her hot buttons and was able to become convincing in his persuit of her yet it was only a sript to him. Much like I suspect the OM was to my WW. She has told me much and said he was always asking what she liked and was this better than that and you can guess the rest. It made her feel a bit like he was trying to figure out the quickest way to get there.


>>>>>Initially after d-day I was so terribly hurt I went steadily down hill to being an emotional mess. I became clingy with H and it really upset my kids to see me like that. I looked pathetic. All skinny and crest fallen. I dropped 10+ lbs (I was unable to eat). Btw, your w is too thin! I'm 5ft 3 and at 110lbs I looked like I had aids. I've only gained back 5 of the 10 lbs I lost and I look healthy at 5ft 3 tall.

She really doesn’t look too skinny! Her BMI is on the low side but is still within the range.

>>>>>Obviously I don't know your relationship, so don't know whether your wife seeing how hurt you are will help. One can only hope.

It is hard to keep the pain and distrust hidden away. It still disturbs me that for someone who was always as considerate as she was, that she is treating me with this lack of regard for what I am going through. Maybe fog or still withdrawl or guilt?

>>>>>>Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that your wife was still seeing the OM. I know I sounded like I was saying that but it wasn't exactly what I meant. More that she is still undecided about him - he's not off the scene as such, even if she isn't seeing him. I am sure it's possible that she might weaken and see him again (addiction is a powerful thing) - but I think she should be given the benefit of the doubt until proved otherwise.

She has just left the house to go into work to do more thesis stuff (8:45pm) and won’t be home until security kicks her out at midnight. I could drive out there to see if her car there or I could swing by the OM’s house to check but I don’t think I need to.

>>>>>Oh boy, now we are on the same wave length, with no static... Ouch!

Sucks, doesn’t it?

>>>>>>Are you sure, cause I could fix you up with a nice little Filipino girl! Sorry, that was tacky! (imagine your long term friends coping with that!!!)

That was beneath you…but amusing, none the less.

>>>>>There's something appealing about the thought of spending one's life alone after this kind of shock. The peacefulness of it.

The male psyche is different than woman’s. If we were relationship kind of guys, we tend to get back into one as soon as we can. The thought of another betrayal would be the only thing to keep me out of one. And that is going to take a lot of thought!

>>>>>I see. I think I'd hold off contacting her colleagues for the moment. Give her a little time to sort herself out. You cannot undo telling people once it's out - though others might already suspect. When it's generally known, you live under an ugly cloud hence forth. Your wife may be horribly upset with you for exposing her. Though I suspect that you should put this question to the forum - as I really don't know. I think I'd be afraid of severing the final bonds that exist between you.

You’re right…it was a knee-jerk reaction. You mean there are other forum members here?

>>>>>>Of course, you've just received the biggest insult of your life. The stupid thing is that I only feel it around my H. I probably feel more attractive than I actually am around other men.

I’m not there yet…it’s too new for me but I think I can understand. We know we were very good to our SO’s…much more than they deserved in fact. That probably empowers us in some circumstances giving us a feeling of supreme confidence and an attitude of not settling for second best. That would make us VERY ATTRACTIVE the the opposite sex.


>>>>>>Are you sure of that? It took me a long time to come to terms with my M not being permanent. But I was just about to turn 50 (my birthday surprise!) and I met H just before I turned 15. That's a lot of time to get used to someone and think you know them.

You know, I think I would be going into PLAN B as soon as she walked out. If she could leave then I’d have to start protecting what was left of my own feelings/self image.


>>>>>Maybe it's time to hang up your rubber gloves! It's obviously not a look that does it for your wife! I gave up caring about everything - stopped cooking, cleaning, gardening. I just couldn't see the point of any of it any more. I'd been doing all that stuff with a eager and willing heart and he kicked dirt in my face. What did I now care for any of those things? If he didn't do the work it didn't get done - he got to see how seriously I'd been affected. (not quite a plan A huh?)

We have pretty much always divided the house chores equally. Granted I tend to do the heavier stuff but I know where the dishpan is. I’m still doing that kind of stuff when I need a clean plate but there are many things that aren’t happening. We have 2 German Shepard dogs that are shedding now and the hair just isn’t getting picked up like it should<g>!


>>>>e.g. my H claims he asked advice about whether to go out with the maid from his friend who was also cheating on his wife at the time. Speaking of equally clueless! That would be like asking Bin Laden whether we should blow up the Empire State Building!

I rest my case!

>>>>>We all get less precious with age! (and more stupid!)

With age comes wisdom.


>>>>>>C'mon, you're not telling me that there's a deep end of the male gene pool in which there are no b*stards? I guess the point is that the deependers can find themselves in the shallow end without admitting that they swam there themselves.

HAR HAR!!!

>>>>>>>She's possitively scathing about Korean women. So much so that I asked her whether her husband was in earshot. Of course, she's not necessarily an expert either and she's coming from it from her own perculiar perspective (a significantly older foregin wife of a Korean), but she said and I quote: Korean women are b*tches and the richer and better looking they are the bigger the b*tch they are. That could describe a lot of cultures yeah?

You are right! My friend has 3 daughters and anyone of them would be a fantastic catch! They absolutely adore their Dad!

>>>>>My H says I have an analytical mind. I really do think understanding our Ss behavior is imperative to our accepting what's happened. Initially I didn't get any of it - it was TOTALLY outside my frame of reference. I never thought I would get it either - and some days, a lot of days, I still don't get it. But I have to recognise that often my hurt over-rides my ability to think rationally.

I don’t have much experience either. This is still one day at a time for me. Without your insight and info from other posts, I’d be floundering right now. Thanks, btw. And I think the analytical mind is bang on. So is mine and so is WW. That’s what’s got her so d*mned confused! This wasn’t logical for her!


>>>>>>You seem to have captured the essence of the situation. You don't have a gut to suck in though - I read your post about "attractiveness"! But I get your drift.

Never had the gut but I can appreciate the thought processes you H was having to deal with. The bimbo was going to make him feel good about himself in the looks department. That would make him feel like he was a better H to you because obviously he still looked good. What a backfire!

>>>>>>>Isn't it all one and the same? One minute it's the sex, the next minute it's the lying, the next minute its the lack of integrity. It's the whole thing. But men are meant to feel much worse than women about the act of sex. Women are meant to be much more hurt by the emotional attachement. But I'm not sure that is true. I honestly don't think I could have stayed with H if he'd had sex with that girl - but his intention was to have sex with her - so presumably the act itself would be too much for me. Yet he betrayed our relationship on every level.

As I mentioned earlier, men don’t place as much importance on the sex act (for them) as women do. We know, however that women don’t do sex unless they have a strong emotional investment in the OM. That’s what hurts men. Not the sex itself but that her feelings were strong enough for the sex to be good. You girls though are backwards. To you the sex is the big thing because of your own filters.

>>>>>>I've been very impressed with some of the betrayed husbands on MBs who've come to terms with forgiveness. I sometimes think mens woolly brains are useful in infideltiy. Do men go over stuff to the same degree as women do? I hope you don't!

I don’t have one single male friend who I could ever talk to about this and some of us go back to University 30 years ago. Men can’t support each other in this way. We fix things and this kind of a thing can’t be fixed. I not thinking about what they would think about me, not being able to keep my W happy at home. My friends aren’t quite that shallow.


>>>>>>>In essence you and I are dealing with betrayal. Have you heard that comment "adultery isn't about sex it's about betrayal". In our case an attractive OP made our spouse feel special. Special enough to over ride all the good they shared with us. You tend to think you have the runs on the board to exempt you from this happening. But it's not about us, it's about weakness in them. Their vulnerability, their need for self validation. Their ability to lie to themselves and others. We thought they were safe because we felt safe. Yet another learning experience for us yeah?


Couldn’t have said it better than that.


>>>>For another post.

OK


>>>>>Yeah, I couldn't deal with it. I would tear myself apart if I'd done that to my H. Plus I would feel so utterly worthless as a human being. Not sure that I could go on in all honestly. Have thought about it a lot.

Me too. Interestingly though, she says before this happened to her she wouldn’t be able to understand. Now she might be able to more easily.

>>>>>I think Australians use the word arseh*le in a different context. If an Aussie says to you "you old bast*ard", it's a term on endearment. Men who cheat are always arseh*les. It's a given.

You’re so quaint! Canadians just say “EH”, a lot. We’re famous actually!

>>>>>>You are very generous spirited about the OM. You are being overly kind perhaps because you admire his choice in women? He may be fond of your wife, but at 46, he can date women as young as 30. He will almost certainly move on eventually.

He does have good taste but it’s not enough of a reason to bond! I wish him all the harm in the world. But in the light of day, I can’t be the one to inflict it on him. And you are right. If I was to go out looking, I’d be working a range from maybe 40 to 50.


>>>>>>>What I don’t forgive is his trying to cut her out of the pack for his own use.

eh?

He made her his target and did everything he could to make it impossible for her to ignore her impulses. He could have said “No, you’re married” Instead, he courted her using information he’d found out about her. She admits the physical stuff that happened was initiated by her. He just didn’t say no.


>>>>Not what I'd do yet a while (mmm, do as I say, not as I do - story for another time). IMHO tread water for now. Don't give your wife any excuses to return to the arms of OM. Don't inflame her. Examine your motives in going out to a meal with one of the ladies at the office. YOUR NOSE ISN'T IN ANYTHING - you have one clean nose. Again, I'm no expert - I felt a red flag when I read that bit. Up to you of course.

The dinner with the girls was to get their side of their stories. They have been dumped on, too. And, they are successful, empowered women who are top performers in the same profession as I. We share many common traits so I was hoping for relevant insight. But I had a flag waving around my ears as well. I guess it will have to be lunch!

>>>>oops I stayed up too late. Hope somethings I say help.

Yeah, it all does.

Brian

TT, Next week I'm changing to the Shatin pool. I'll go thru Newtown Plaza a lot. Why not meet me at Delifrance or Starbucks some time (before Christmas hopefully) and I'll buy you a coffee or six and you can do all the talking. (a therapist costs a $1000 an hour here!) I realise that I'm giving away where I think you live. It's just that villiage houses usually mean NTs.

I know you are busy, so I'll leave it up to you to decide.

Btw, when I was in OZ recently I watched a fix your body type of program - and they did a tummytuck surgery. I watched it with you in mind. The result was very good - though the rather personable 40 yo patient was very sore and sorry for two weeks after the surgery. She said she couldn't believe she had willfully inflicted so much pain on herself. However 2 - 3 months later she was so excited to be wearing jeans again.

Goodness I've not just hyjacked this thread I've desecrated it. I beg Aussiewife's humble apologies?

AN