lemonman -

I have been meaning to talk to you for a while now. When I first came here over a year ago, I was just like you. I read here, and thought everyone here was crazy.

In fact, I read here for 3 months before I signed up. I was on another site, and started noticing that the folks here were having success with the program.

So finally I signed on. By that time I had thrown my WH out (on D-day). So I never did a good Plan A. However I did a halfway decent Plan B.

I have been going through this for 22 months. Although my marriage did not recover, I'm doing just fine. And I owe it to this board.

I hope you will stick around for awhile, and this board will support you in your recovery.

Believer:

Thanks for the post. I have very real problems with *some* of the concepts on here, but I am getting better at accepting what people do and *trying* not to make judgements. I am in a DV now and no longer have any need or want to save my marriage. What I do want to do is recover emotionally. I always thought of myself as a very intelligent and successful person. I went to medical school and I make a very good living, BUT I failed at this marriage. I am learning that infidelity is not a one way road. I do bare some blame and I am learning how to accept that and move on, and more importantly learn. I enjoy reading the posts and am trying to limit my feedback to people becasue it is very obvious that I do not subscribe to many of the principles of this site...namely the Plan A method that MANY posters on here extrapolate into pride swallowing doormat behavior (disclaimer: my opinion only). I have such a hard tiome understanding how people on this site ALLOW themselves to be $hit on time and time again with repeated false recoveries, broken promises, continued contact with OM/OW. I do think the Plans have merit if used correctly, BUT I THINK far too many people misapply them and really humiliate and devalue themselves in the process (disclaimer: my opinion only). I think too many people here want to save the marriage (on paper) and use the excuse of "saving the family", but the harm that they put their kids through in "saving the marriage" is far more painful than divorcing (this is my opinion). Letting a WH/WS back time and time again with the hope "that they will stay this time if I just PLAN A better" is a disgrace IMO. I giess maybe I don't really belong on this site, b/c just talking about this subject and philospohy boils my blood. Perhgaps I need to learn more. I am willing to try. I will *try* my best to limit feedback b/c I know what I say will usually not be appreciated by those trying to live this way. Anyways, thanks for your post.

lemonman-

Thanks for answering. We have a couple of Doc's here, Dad23boys, and Stanley. Dad is a WH, but is back with his wife. Stanley is a BS, back with his wife.

I don't know if you have read Noodle's post, but am copying it for you. Yes, we BS's have made mistakes, but nothing that justifies an affair.

Read the below, and see if you can relate.

Nellie1 posted a very interesting question..one that stirred me into thoughts of varying depths.

If you substitute "abuse" for "affair" in an otherwise unchanged statement regarding responsibility of the wronged spouse....would we meet that statement with anything but utter contempt?

Knee jerk reaction? Well of course not. Until I thought about it for a minute. Then I changed my mind.

The longer I thought about it..and the further back I looked..I saw the storm brewing, but I do not think it was a storm of unmet needs per say...at least not the needs that have been outlined. I believe that the need that I failed to meet was enforcing my boundaries. Allowing my husband to sink deeper and deeper still into selfishness without putting up any genuine resistance. In short? I couldn't pick which hill to die on. None of the "issues" seemed important enough to take the gloves off over. Retrospectively I wish I had nipped it in the bud, even at the expense of the relationship. I wish that I had drawn my lines in the sand and refused to have my standards lowered. The lower he took us..the less I respected him [although I still both loved and liked him]..the lower I allowed him to take us..the less he respected me. Crushing. Ironic. No getting around it. I damaged my marriage by not offering to put my foot up his @ss.

Have you ever had the pleasure of watching someone who has begun descent? You can see that they are slipping..you can see the spiral..you can not see a way to stop it..but that doesn't stop you from running around with a net trying to catch them. Never, ever works, does it?

I was on a pretty short leash by the time he had sex with another woman. As an example...we live quite far from any friends or family..my mother flew out for one day to see us. My H declined to join us for dinner...by the end of the evening I was nearly dancing in place with unease because I was torn. I only got to see my mother once a year..I wanted to stay and visit with her as long as possible..but I could literally feel his displeasure that I was chosing to spend time with her rather than with him. Funny thing though? The 364 other days of the year I was completely expendable. I was at least second choice. He didn't mind a bit going out with friends [I later found out just why I was not invited] and leaving me for an evening [and a life] alone with the kids. I noticed one day that I had not left the house alone in more than 6 months. I was in a state of near complete neglect. I was allowing it ? Why? I have not been a person to have chronic boundary issues. I have never been mistreated in any other relationship. What exactly was going on?

My conclusion? Fog is a two way street. People can and do condition the people around them to treat them a certain way, and to react only within a certain spectrum. That's also a two way street. Every step I allowed him to take that crossed one of my boundaries..encouraged another step to be attempted. Until I had nearly lost my identity, my very sense of self..and he was becoming a monster. If I had refused the first time, and every time..he would have behaved, or left. Either would be better than allowing him to betray me.

I suprise myself. I find that in most cases I do not buy the emotional needs not being met to be the cause of the affair. I know that in our situation..I am certain that I was not meeting every need that he had, exactly when and how he needed it..but I was trying to. I can't do better than that. I can also tell you, emphatically, that mine were not being met at all. If we follow the outline I should have been the one to have an affair.

I think maybe this contributes to my rage...I am angry with myself..I battle with myself. I honestly do not know what is the right thing to do in any given situation. I look at my husband and I see that very same selfishness still there. I look at his FOO..aha! There it is. Stealthy beast! Id boy.

I noticed that I tend to be very direct and even a bit harsh with posters who are going where I have been. I do not merely read their words..I feel them. I feel their claustrophobia..their anxiety. I can see them analyizing each and every gesture of their WS..the panic and grief. Trying to map out the plan least likely to offend them. Worried about what they will think of Every Little Thing. I see conditioning. I see abuse. I see beguiled men and women too afraid to shove back when their WS encroaches on their boundaries..the boundaries of a human being are not sacred to a WS moving in for the kill. Yet we waver..we quiver..they claim new ground..we bleed out our very dignity until the battlefield is red and still we do not dare to resist. What is there to be lost by this time? Nothing to lose and everything to gain..but oh they will not like it. They will pout and stomp their feet. Give us nasty looks. Lie. Show us how ugly they can be. I think that last bit is it. We are deceived..but we do it to ourselves. We love them and we do not want to see the ugliness . When my H shows me his ugly face my love for him pours out of the wounds he has inflicted. Those wounds are permanent. They may be mortal. VnusMars said something I find very astute about his BS now WW...she wants to have her ENs met by someone who has not devastated her. Touche. What to be done about it though? I feel there is enough merit in this M to stay..but it is not what it ought to be. His word is less to me now. I do not trust him. He is an oathbreaker. I crave his love but find it pale and cold. He is burning with passion for me...but passion was never hard for him. Sometimes I think he has taken mine. I want the fire back. Not the fire of the marriage..the fire of my life. I have felt the cautious bystander in my own life for well over 2 years now. I can't stand it any longer. It scares me because my marriage is not my first priority. It's way up there..but not first. I will let him go before I will fight that battle again. If he slips I do not have it in me to be his soft place to land. I done been landed on till I'm about flat. Two dimensional. Too perfect. Too strong..but having misapplied that strength of will I have disarmed myself when I ought to have been standing my ground decisively.

I could not affect his affair with my boundaries...not by then

I knew he was in danger when he was..

playing video games in favor of time with family

going "out" without me

drinking excessively

befriending people of "low" behavior

keeping me removed from his social life

This was the first tier of demonstrably destructive behavior [that I have recognized thus far]..If I had said "No", meant "No", and enforced "No" at this point..I would never have been a BS. He would have ceased hurtling down the infidelity road or he would have left. I didn't though..so we moved on to..

Being generally dismissive of my concerns and disrespectfull to me.

Growing more and more critical of me.

Beginning to say things like "If I ever cheated on you, you would forgive me."

Lying overtly.

OK..so this was more obvious..did I draw the line there? Nope..so on we went...

Near complete personality change.

The fog is thick ..I feel I am talking with a pot smoking 13 year old..I fight disgust.

I begin to sense deceit in everyday interaction...entire portions of his life I am shut out of until I am in a very small box..getting my knuckles rapped when I dare to try and lift the lid.

I notice that H is spending HUGE amounts of money on friends and recreation of various..yet vague, and always involving alcohol, sorts.

[note: this is about the time that I suspect he was seriously dunking his feet in the water of infidelity...He says that his ONS was a zero to 100% situation..I don't believe him. Even serial killers need to "rehearse"..play with it a bit. He was at strip clubs with friends..his friends were all cheaters themselves. This will likely be a later disclosure. The dreaded plague to the BS..at least I am semi- prepared. I am looking at his behavior at the time..all of it says to me that this was not in fact a 0 to 100..don't know why he insists that it was..sigh]

So did I draw a line then? No? How could I? Let me tell you..by that time I was in the fog myself ...yep, that's right...I wasn't thinking clearly either. I knew it was coming [well, not in the sense of having the slightest idea..but I knew there was something to know!] I looked out to the horizon and felt dread. I visualize myself at that time as having been drugged, and strapped into a chair..that is on a track..that will hurtle at breakneck speed..directly into a brick wall..my eyes are open, but blind..I am disoriented and bound. I feel the wind rush past my face..I feel the panic..I feel gravity push against me..I know a blow is coming but not when or how..then boom

He did it

I can't remember which poster so perfectly captured that moment of prescience

"louder than a thought, but less than a whisper"

Two seconds later I had confirmation in the form of a confession. Thus my lack of expression. I was so shocky from my moment I almost didn't hear him. I do not actually quite recall exactly what he said. No matter..I got the jist of it.

So almost a year and a half passes..with little improvement. He wasn't infected with anything nasty, or at all as far as can be tested [that was one boundary I enforced..my personal opinion is that people who advise SF with WS and nothing but a paltry condom to protect them are INSANE..SF is one of my top needs..and may be his very top need..but I put us both in the school of tough sh*t on that one..no way I am paying with my life for what he has done to me..I waited for 7 months and two complete sets of tests..and I still sweated at the Dr when I had my prenatal blood tests. Bleah. Gee, I wonder where that feeling of disgust came from..could it be I now see him as a walking petri dish?]

So to make a long story..well, less long than it potentially could be...

I caught him in a lie..two days later I found out I was pregnant. I had been very carefull..and was Not Pleased about this turn of events.

Suddenly I had no trouble enforcing my boundaries because I wasn't just willing to pull the plug..I wanted to pull it. I held him at sword point...made him choose. Not until this moment was there any significant improvement. That was when recovery began. When I decided what my life would include..and found him to be somewhere in between optional and undesireable. Not really getting off on a good foot. Definitely no honeymoon feelings. Not until he had significantly added to my bank did I have any feelings for him that did not involve blood and fire. Only my committment held me. It was enough.

I wish I had enforced when I had the chance. I was too ignorant to know what exactly I was looking at. I was too naive thinking I needed to justify my boundaries. I was too "reasonable"

No more.

--Noodle

Lemonman...just a few thoughts...

There are marriages that can't be fixed.
There are marriages that can be *saved* and made even better.

What I have learned the last few years is that I HAVE NO IDEA which marriages are which. I have been SHOCKED at the divorces of certain couples that I have known- and have privately wondered why other couples stay together. When it comes down to it- I think that only the participants (i.e. the spouses) can determine when enough is enough.

What I do think, however, is that Plan A- and Plan B- offers the betrayed spouse the opportunity to become happier with him or herself. If, at the end of the day, the marriage fails- I really do think that having gone through these plans helps a person to know that they have done all they could do to save their marriage and helps them walk away feeling better about themselves - and less damaged emotionally- then would have otherwise been the case. Perhaps plan A is misunderstood in some cases, and perhaps you (or others) may not approve of what a person does during plan A. As I said above, however, at the end of the day- only that person knows when they have tried enough- and when they are emotionally ready to walk away.

One thing that I thought was interesting, lemonman- you said:
QUOTE]Originally posted by lemonman:
<strong> I always thought of myself as a very intelligent and successful person. I went to medical school and I make a very good living, BUT I failed at this marriage. I am learning that infidelity is not a one way road. I do bare some blame and I am learning how to accept that and move on.</strong>[/QUOTE]

You know what? You are a successful person in certain ways - and in other ways you are learning to grow. I think that for many of us who are successful in certain areas of our lives, it comes as a REAL BLOW to learn how well...for lack of a better word...STUPID we are in other areas. Emotional maturity or intelligence does not necessarily correlate with book smarts. Kudos to you for actively engaging yourself- and trying to learn from the past. (I am not blaming you alone, please understand, for the failure of your marriage- I AM applauding you for seeking to understand what you did to contribute to that failure.)

You sound like you are in a lot of pain right now. I wish you peace and healing. My thoughts are with you!

LemonMan:

I think there are some principles that are VERY helpful:

1. The concept of no contact

2. How to deal with withdrawal

3. Notes regarding inner mind of the WWs.

4. The concept of affair as an addiction

5. The idea of avoiding LBs and depositing love units

As for plan A and B, I will be honest I have not studied them in detail because I did not really use them.

On D-day my wife dumped OM and pleaded with me not to divorce her (something I wanted to do). Wife was supportive and managed to stop the affair even thou she broke the NC rule. She later admitted that the withdrawal is very real.

If not for this site and other literature that suggests reconciliation is possible I would be a goner.

Every situation is different------ my wife was faithful for the 1st 29 years of the marriage and I am going to be 54 years old next month. At this stage I want to keep my wife because she is a great woman. If I had been in my 20s it might have been different. But, as of now I cannot give up all the wonderful things my wife has. The chances of finding another woman like her are VERY SLIM.

To do this one must be willing to lose all pride an accept the fact that the marriage will be different and that there may never be complete trust.

I am not sure I would have enter the so called door-mat mode if my wife wanted to make it with her OM. To be honest, I was lucky, her OM is not in the same league as I am. He is your typical OM (if you know what I mean). My wife never intended to leave me for the OM. So as affairs go I probably had a best case scenario.

What went wrong in your case?

Stanley:

Well, I will just say that I was too wrapped in my work (I am a surgeon) and let things at home deteriorate. I am now 100% sure that I was not meeting many of my wife's EN's, Albeit I was a faithful man who honored my wife and gave her everything (or so I thought). She obviosuly let someone else meet those needs and in the process dishonored me and our relationship. I tried to "change" and be a "better husband", work less hours, stop seeing patients at all hours of the night but you can't fix a marriage that only one person wants. I have since quit trying to "win my wife back" and am now trying to "win my life back". I am learning to forgive myself, and in the process am learning so much about myself. I have given alot of my life to medicine and my job, and it has cost me my marriage and part of my life. Those are decisions I made and have to live with them forever.

I have had many many opportunities for infidelity but I could never in a million years imagine doing that to my wife. NEVER. I think that some of the things that you listed I agree with. I think this site is a God-send and it is helping me recover. HOWEVER, I feel that while Plan A on paper seems like it is a plan, clearly many on here are not really following that method. People on here continually talk like Plan A is "changing yourse;f" and that it is a time for "improving your self", well I disagree with alot of it. It all seems like a BIG GAME to me. They are tryign to creat this image of how good they are, and how great they will make life for the WS in the hopes of them getting the wife back. Menawhile, they are told to allow the affair to continue and not LB (i,e make any waves" b/c it might upset the Ws or be seen as judgemental behavior. How many posts do we see on here a day with people posting over and over again how their WS "lied again", or is "seeing the OP again". People are reduced to getting voice recorders, and intenret tracking software to "make sure things are ok". Good god !!!!!! And ofcourse all of this behavior is supported and encouraged. I was interested in the comment you made about how the marriage will change and the fact that 100% trust in your WS may never occur. I am sure that many people here who are "recovered" deep down feel the same way, but instead preach differently. That is my story in a nutshell. Thanks for asking.

<small>[ October 22, 2004, 10:45 PM: Message edited by: lemonman ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
<strong> Stanley:

Well, I will just say that I was too wrapped in my work (I am a surgeon) and let things at home deteriorate. I am now 100% sure that I was not meeting many of my wife's EN's, Albeit I was a faithful man who honored my wife and gave her everything (or so I thought). She obviosuly let someone else meet those needs and in the process dishonored me and our relationship. I tried to "change" and be a "better husband", work less hours, stop seeing patients at all hours of the night but you can't fix a marriage that only one person wants. I have since quit trying to "win my wife back" and am now trying to "win my life back". I am learning to forgive myself, and in the process am learning so much about myself. I have given alot of my life to medicine and my job, and it has cost me my marriage and part of my life. Those are decisions I made and have to live with them forever.

I have had many many opportunities for infidelity but I could never in a million years imagine doing that to my wife. NEVER. I think that some of the things that you listed I agree with. I think this site is a God-send and it is helping me recover. HOWEVER, I feel that while Plan A on paper seems like it is a plan, clearly many on here are not really following that method. People on here continually talk like Plan A is "changing yourse;f" and that it is a time for "improving your self", well I disagree with alot of it. It all seems like a BIG GAME to me. They are tryign to creat this image of how good they are, and how great they will make life for the WS in the hopes of them getting the wife back. Menawhile, they are told to allow the affair to continue and not LB (i,e make any waves" b/c it might upset the Ws or be seen as judgemental behavior. How many posts do we see on here a day with people posting over and over again how their WS "lied again", or is "seeing the OP again". People are reduced to getting voice recorders, and intenret tracking software to "make sure things are ok". Good god !!!!!! And ofcourse all of this behavior is supported and encouraged. I thank you for your honesty in admitting that you will never have 100% trust in your wife. I am sure that many people here who are "recovered" deep down feel the same way, but instead preach differently. That is my story in a nutshell. Thanks for asking. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lemonman- have you actually read Steve Harley's concepts and comments on plan A and B? He does not sanction actually ever having 100 percent trust in your spouse- nor permitting the affair to continue.

And if you think you could *NEVER* be guilty of infidelity- think again. We all have failings, lemonman, and by thinking that you personally are *above and beyond* such behavior you are setting yourself up for failing in future relationships.

pause thread.....

sadfww, I love your signature line!

....continue

<small>[ October 22, 2004, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: faithinme ]</small>

Fair neough, I shoud of never said never as I could be weak at make a mistake. Once again, I haev read Stebee Harley's plans and my major point about it is the MISAPPLICATION of the Plans that is widespread on here (In my humble opinion). How many posts do you read on here with people trying to Plan A, while the WS continues to have the affair and the BS continues to get walked all over........I believe in the true spirit of pLan A, BUT if your WS continues to betray you, how can you really continue to let it happen. This baord is filled with so much pain, and when I see people who are in denial about the affairs and are misguiding their efforts, it is sad. These are my opinions only. I am trying not to be so judgemental about things, it is a learning process for me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by faithinme:
<strong> pause thread.....

sadfww, I love your signature line!

....continue </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Thanks FIM- I think that this should be YOUR signature line now. You *WOW* me!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
<strong> Fair neough, I shoud of never said never as I could be weak at make a mistake. Once again, I haev read Stebee Harley's plans and my major point about it is the MISAPPLICATION of the Plans that is widespread on here (In my humble opinion). How many posts do you read on here with people trying to Plan A, while the WS continues to have the affair and the BS continues to get walked all over........I believe in the true spirit of pLan A, BUT if your WS continues to betray you, how can you really continue to let it happen. This baord is filled with so much pain, and when I see people who are in denial about the affairs and are misguiding their efforts, it is sad. These are my opinions only. I am trying not to be so judgemental about things, it is a learning process for me. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lemonman...I have a few comments- as you must have known I would if you have read anything I have written in the past. Yep- I have a big mouth and never know when to close it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You said that you think Plan A is misunderstood- and that the efforts of many here are misguided.

Can I ask you this: WHY?


While YOU think that these spouses may lack dignity by continuing plan A'ing- or even plan b'ing- while their spouses continue their A's....WHO are YOU to judge? I want you to seriously think about this. I have had to think about this myself seriously as my best friend has recently (6 months ago) found out that her H has cheated on her for quite some time. She has withstood and *taken* far more then I would have (yes, even me as a WW wouldn't have necessarily chosen the path she has chosen) .....but you know what? It is NOT my call. It is HER call....and I KNOW (from what she has told me and from what I have realized myself) is that if she did not go through these motions and opted for a D - before SHE was ready...that she would always wonder *what if* and possibly have regrets until the end of her days.

Every person has a different tolerance level- and if a pseudo plan A permits a person to get to the point where they have NO REGRETS if things do NOT work out...why is that so bad? why is that not a worthy goal in and of itself?

Let me also throw this out there lemonman...if you are like most doctors I know, you have a hefty helping of ego. I am NOT picking on you... do understand that. Those in my profession are often accused of the same thing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I just want you to seriously consider and understand that people fall down- and SIN- and that this is a human condition. This does not make the SIN RIGHT- or excusable- but it should hopefully make us all less judgemental of our fellow humans. Is *pride* a sin? Is neglect a *sin*? Perhaps not in the traditional sense...but we all hurt each other lemonman- in many different ways.

It is the way in which we recognize our failings, FORGIVE others- and seek to improve ourselves that define us as human beings.

LEMONHEAD-- I agree 100% with you. I think that a lot of people here post one thing, but something else is going on in their lives. I think they want to believe that their marriage is getting better and everything is going well, but in reality things could not get any worst!
A couple should give each other a chance of course, but you cannot be a "doormat" and just wait for the affair to finish or for the fog to lift and everything will be fine. If a spouse continues the affair after being out in the open, it is obvious that the betrayer does not care too much for the marriage to work. I am talking about continuing having physical contact with the OM or OW. That should stop inmediatly, calls, e-mails, that sort of thing I am sure will continue for some time until it fades (it happened with me), but physical contact should terminate right away.
I am completely sure that my husband (Stanley) would have left me, if I had continue the affair.
And I would not blame him for doing so. But right now, we are trying to make our marriage better than before, of course there are ups and downs, but we are trying. But he is one of those people that you mentioned that tap the phone and got spy ware for the computer to know my activities. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> But things are getting so much better lately, because I can see he is starting to trust me a bit. We are BOTH trying to make it work. We are not following Plan A.B,C or D. We are doing what it is best for us and is working just fine!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Take care!

SadfWW:

I had to LOL at your talk of doctors "hefty ego" bit. It is true. It is also true that myself and most of my colleagues are some of the most dysfunctional people alive. You have to be to go through the rigors of medical training. I am not saying this is right, just pointing out fact. Saving someon'e life does create an ego and it is my ego that can make me say thinsg that others can't undersatnd and disagree with. I can give you those points. As for PLan A, I am going to agree with you on part of this. I have no right to judge people for doing this. Sometimes it takes every fibre of my being not to want to scream and yell at someone for how stupid and wimpoy and how much of a doormat they are looking like. It is quite comical at times for me to see my reactions to certain posts.....but I digress.......I am trying to get better at not judging these folks no matter how pathetically sad there strategis are.. It is noy my right to tell them this and I am gettgin better everyday. I just bring peace folks, not pain

Not to be presumptuous (LM is fully capable of clearly stating his own position), but I've followed this thread all evening and now have some comments...

ALL of LM's "criticism" of the system relates ONLY to posts on the forum (how many posts, many on here, etc.). Nowhere (that I can find) has he found fault with Dr. H's "prescription", only it's application. While LM's approach in the "Spinning thread" may have been stronger than what is normally encountered in the forum, he expresses his opinion (and clearly points out that it is just that...his opinion). What needed to be pointed out in that thread was the dictum that...WE GET TREATED THE WAY WE ALLOW PEOPLE TO TREAT US!

Sadfww, while I value and appreciate your input and insight into the dynamics of infidelity as seen from "the other side", (nerf 2x4 commin') your assertion that LM needs to "think again" re. his immunity to infidelity is judgemental! As amazing as it may seem, some people are "above and beyond" infidelity. For those keeping score, mark me down in that category too!

I think the plan A skeptics here are caught up in a cartoonish impression of plan A.

Whenever you go into a situation where your life is bringing you a world of pain, you can defiantly declare that you are perfect, wear your righteous indignation like a badge, and throw rocks at the person who is hurting you.

Or you can accept that you are not perfect, take the opportunity to think about the ways you can improve, and learn about love and compassion.

I think the indignant route is a kind of attachment all its own.

To be belligerent, and to say, to hell with you, I'll find somebody who won't dump on me, is to miss an opportunity.

GC

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Ron53:
<strong> Sadfww, while I value and appreciate your input and insight into the dynamics of infidelity as seen from "the other side", (nerf 2x4 commin') your assertion that LM needs to "think again" re. his immunity to infidelity is judgemental! As amazing as it may seem, some people are "above and beyond" infidelity. For those keeping score, mark me down in that category too! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A quote from Dr. Harley:

"We are all wired to have an affair. We can all fall in love with someone of the opposite sex if that person meets one of our emotional needs. If you don't think it can happen to you because of your conviction or will-power, you are particularly vulnerable to an affair. And if you think your spouse would never have an affair, you are also vulnerable."

I'm glad you are above and beyond having an A.
As one who never thought I would be in this particular category, I can sincerely say that I am glad that you will never find yourself in the WS category.

<small>[ October 23, 2004, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: Sadfww ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud:
<strong> I think the plan A skeptics here are caught up in a cartoonish impression of plan A.

Whenever you go into a situation where your life is bringing you a world of pain, you can defiantly declare that you are perfect, wear your righteous indignation like a badge, and throw rocks at the person who is hurting you.

Or you can accept that you are not perfect, take the opportunity to think about the ways you can improve, and learn about love and compassion.

I think the indignant route is a kind of attachment all its own.

To be belligerent, and to say, to hell with you, I'll find somebody who won't dump on me, is to miss an opportunity.

GC </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thumbs up GC!

I have to say that some spouses will be unfaithful in good marriages whereas others will never commit adultery despite having zero ENs met. Then there are some in the middle who may sway one way or the other.

The common denominator of infidelity is low self-esteem---------- it is almost universal.

In fact now that I have discovered the infidelity of my wife I have low self-esteem (according to my wife I used to have sky-high self-esteem). Guess what? Now I have a huge need to have my ENs met. I suspect that if my wife did not take care of that I would be very vulnerable for an affair. I think my huge need to have the ENs met is my low self-esteem. Hopefully this will be a temporary thing.

I agree with LM that it is painful to read about the wayward spouses abusing the BSs. I am not sure in could take it, but then again I once said I would divorce my wife instantly if she was unfaithful

"you can accept that you are not perfect, take the opportunity to think about the ways you can improve, and learn about love and compassion....all good things. But what of the person who is hurting you? How long do you allow yourself to be a victim?

"To be belligerent, and to say, to hell with you, I'll find somebody who won't dump on me, is to miss an opportunity"...perhaps. BUT doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results...is INSANITY!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
<strong> SadfWW:

I had to LOL at your talk of doctors "hefty ego" bit. It is true. It is also true that myself and most of my colleagues are some of the most dysfunctional people alive. You have to be to go through the rigors of medical training. I am not saying this is right, just pointing out fact. Saving someon'e life does create an ego and it is my ego that can make me say thinsg that others can't undersatnd and disagree with. I can give you those points. As for PLan A, I am going to agree with you on part of this. I have no right to judge people for doing this. Sometimes it takes every fibre of my being not to want to scream and yell at someone for how stupid and wimpoy and how much of a doormat they are looking like. It is quite comical at times for me to see my reactions to certain posts.....but I digress.......I am trying to get better at not judging these folks no matter how pathetically sad there strategis are.. It is noy my right to tell them this and I am gettgin better everyday. I just bring peace folks, not pain </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, Lemonman...after this one I'm calling it a night. I was out of town all today, came home, got my kids in bed and I am tired! YAWN! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


Can I just quote a few of your quotes...???

Saving someon'e life does create an ego and it is my ego that can make me say thinsg that others can't undersatnd and disagree with.

and

I have no right to judge people for doing this. Sometimes it takes every fibre of my being not to want to scream and yell at someone for how stupid and wimpoy and how much of a doormat they are looking like. It is quite comical at times for me to see my reactions to certain posts.....but I digress.......I am trying to get better at not judging these folks no matter how pathetically sad there strategis are.. It is noy my right to tell them this and I am gettgin better everyday.

Lemonman- I want you to CAREFULLY think about these quotes and what you are saying. You say you are getting better at NOT JUDGING "these folks" NO MATTER HOW PATHETICALLY SAD THEIR STRATEGIES are...?????!!!!?????? and that you hold yourself back from screaming and yelling at how "stupid and wimpy" and "how much of a doormat" they are being?

Hmmm....Think about this.

Let me throw this out there for you. I am well acquainted with the medical community. My dad is a doctor and seriously the most intellectually intelligent man I have ever known. He finished first in his college class, has a PHD from Yale in Physics, got his MD in two years and then two more designations in Pulmonology and Critical Care in 1 year and just recently went and got his MBA for kicks. He and my mother are also divorced. They divorced when I was 25.

Was this ALL his fault? No. Was a portion of it his fault? Yep. My mother tried to drag him to MC for YEARS and he refused to go- he was too busy with patients and his career. And when they divorced he felt sorry for himself and made sure that we all knew that NONE OF THIS WAS HIS FAULT= that ALL he had done was to try to earn a living for his family.

You know what I say to that? BULL****! Sorry...it is. There is no excuse for not putting your spouse and family first.
I made that choice MYSELF when I decided not to stay in private practice and to go in house.


I'm editing here to clarify what I was saying.
From my personal experience, my father was not able to recover on his own emotionally until he took ownership for his own part in the breakdown of his marriage. I think in some ways that it is harder for people who are used to being highly successful to get to that point- particularly where they are on the side of the equation that has been betrayed. I think however that until you can clearly and honestly admit your own faults- not in causing the AFFAIR (that is purely your WS' fault)- but in causing the breakdown of your marriage- that emotional growth and recovery don't happen. Perhaps this won't be a problem for you- perhaps you are doing this already. I obviously don't know you- and don't know much about your story so you are free to ignore me.


Feel free to smack back. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> However, it'll have to be tomorrow for me to actually feel the blow....

night night.

<small>[ October 23, 2004, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: Sadfww ]</small>