</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Ron53:
<strong> [i]" But what of the person who is hurting you? How long do you allow yourself to be a victim?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The point is Ron, that the *how long* is INDIVIDUAL- and to judge someone else for taking the time they need to move on is wrong.

But what of the person who is hurting you? How long do you allow yourself to be a victim?

You can't change the person who is hurting you. Regarding allowing yourself to be a victim, I think it's safe to say that victimhood is a state of mind. And I sense a real lack of humility in that statement. Do you disagree?

"To be belligerent, and to say, to hell with you, I'll find somebody who won't dump on me, is to miss an opportunity"...perhaps. BUT doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results...is INSANITY!

Fair enough. I certainly changed my approach a few times. But how long is too long with a given approach then? A day? A month? Six months? I'm a patient man, and I think investing in an effort for a reasonable length of time without expecting immediate results is a wise thing to do.

I do appreciate your skepticism. I'm no kool-aid drinker. But I found a way to use these principles and not keep on doing the same thing. I established boundaries when I had to, and I changed my approach, and I was patient as I could be, and when it became too painful and too hard to keep going, I got out. Now, I get to walk away with a clean conscience, knowing that there is only one person responsible for the end of my M.

GC

I've been reading this thread with some interest. That is largely due to the fact that when I first came here and read about this and lurked in the forums, I thought, "You have GOT to be kidding me people!"

But, being that I didn't have any better plan other than kicking my husband to the curb, I decided to try it.

It goes against most peoples nature; it certainly goes against mine. I figured that since I hadn't seen my husband in a year, the least I could do was try something to save the last 11 years.

And you know what, it may. It may not. But, PLAN A is implemented by different people in different ways. I've got to tell you that this topic has made me think about what I am doing in my own situation. I think that is good. If you don't evaluate where YOU are, PLAN A and even PLAN B can become a habit rather than a step in a larger plan.

That place IS different for every person. There are some that think that I am staying in this too long, being a doormat, losing my self-respect, allowing myself to be degraded, etc. Everyone who is here can probably say they know SOMEONE that would say that about them.

Personally, I'm comfortable with my decisions right now and up to this point. I feel better about that decision based on my sessions with Steve Harley.

I wouldn't describe myself as any of those things above, but others may. Some may see people here misusing Plan A and it probably does happen. But, I can't say when that it is. I certainly don't know their threshold, commitment, boundaries. Nor do I know the inner workings of their relationship.

Regardless of what happens in my marriage, I will be a better person having gone through this. I've made that decision. I believe that the majority of people here are the same way. If I was to have stopped two weeks ago, I would feel as if I didn't do everything. Then, I would feel all of those things listed earlier. I assume that is the same with most people who go through this.

The fact of the matter is that Plan A does take into consideration an ongoing affair. Read SAA. It deals with that a lot.

As for your definition of insanity.... I play piano and you know what, I have to do the SAME EXACT THING ABOUT 100 TIMES BEFORE I PERFECT IT.

If I chose to not do the exact same thing, expecting a different result, it would be futile and my home would be without music.

NEVER GIVE UP...unless you are willing to live with the consequence.

Only you know when you're ready to do that.

By the way, thank you for making me look deeper into myself, Lemonman. I have been at a place that I needed to examine my own motives and determination. You helped me find my answer. Thank you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:

The common denominator of infidelity is low self-esteem---------- it is almost universal.

In fact now that I have discovered the infidelity of my wife I have low self-esteem (according to my wife I used to have sky-high self-esteem).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You may be interested in reading Self-esteem: The Myth of the Century by Janice E. Anderson. Here's two excerpts:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"A recent study by Nicholas Emler, Ph.D. (2001), illustrates this schism, wherein he discovered that persons in his study with high self-esteem may be more of a threat to society. His controversial report found that people with high self-esteem are more likely to be racist, violent and criminal.

The dark side of self-esteem research predicts a negative result in low self-esteem with an increased risk of depression, drug use, and some forms of delinquency (Myers, 2002). Equally dark are the results from studies that reflect the fact that when a person's favorable self-esteem is threatened, they often react by putting others down, sometimes violently (T. Heatherton & K. Vohs, 2000). A renowned researcher of self-esteem, Roy F. Baumeister (1996), who himself has claimed to have published more studies on self-esteem than anybody else has said, "The enthusiastic claims of the self-esteem movement mostly range from fantasy to hogwash. The results of self esteem are small, limited, and not all good." He reports that "high self-esteem folks are more likely to be obnoxious, to interrupt, and to talk at people rather than with them. My conclusion is that self-control is worth 10 times as much as self-esteem."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Lemonman & Folks. I would agree with you that there are many poorly implemented 'plan A's on here where poor people are behaving like ineffective doormats.

There are others though who effect a tight and compliant Plan A who truly affect the closure of the affair AND hugely increase the likelihood of the FWS choosing to retunr to the M once the A is ended.

I effected plan A, and although some unusual factors affected the dynamics of my FWWs affair, plan A made ME strong, confident and able tocope with my kids, FWW and life. By so doing I also made it an easier choice for my FWW to return to me.
I do not believe Plan A made me a doormat any more than an Allied Spy in 1942 Germany was a Nazi.

And whose mores says that behaving with justified idignation on discovery of an A is the 'right' thing to do?

I belived then, as I still do that the RIGHT response was the one most likely to restore my childrens mother to them, and my FWW to me.

Now she's back and the world is calmer we can determine together petiently if theres a future for us. We may still divorce but now we can do so based on giving it the best try imaginable and not making knee-jerk decsions.

As a doctor you know that described medical conditions can be expected to follow symptoms and timelines AND respond to treatments within predictable boundaries.

The Harleys experince over many years and many thousands of affairs counselled says the same thing about most affairs.

Within their category of affair, infidels tend to behave in highly predictable ways. Smart, strong ,caring BS's can exploit this by effecting SIMILARLY proven behaviours that have been demonstrated to work in many similar cases.

My FWW for example knows NOTHING of MB principles yet is following predictive behaviours almost to the letter.

You have chosen your path, and I pray you are happy with that, but please do not disparage a M recovery method that ha worked and IS WORKING for thousands of people.

Again, let me repeat...NO ONE IS DISPARAGING THE METHODOLOGY, just it's application in some cases. It is heartening that there is/are such plans for repairing broken marriages. LM's point of contention is the "application"..."I do think the Plans have merit if used correctly, BUT I THINK far too many people misapply them and really humiliate and devalue themselves in the process.

Of course none of us can say when the other has had "enough", that is absolutely a personal decision. But, sometimes, it helps if someone grabs us on the shoulder and stops us in our frenzy to recover and points out the folly of our current actions and suggests an alternative approach. Sometimes, folks can't "see the forest for the trees."

OK GC, I see my problem...used a noun instead of a verb. Let's try...But what of the person who is hurting you? How long do you allow yourself to be VICTIMIZED? Victim is a label assigned (by themselves or others) to those on the receiving end of the "assault". We, each of us, can choose to pick up that mantle or not; again a personal choice.

Perhaps an analogy will work...a woman's been mugged at the same ATM machine three times in her last five visits to said machine. She ponders her situation and wonders way she's having such bad luck. Finally, someone points out to her that perhaps she should, 1) visit the ATM only during daylight hours, 2) visit a different ATM in a better lit or less secluded location. Their only suggestions. But her believing that her "luck" will change without her taking measures to prevent herself from being "victimized" is foolish.

"I found a way to use these principles and not keep on doing the same thing. I established boundaries when I had to, and I changed my approach, and I was patient as I could be, and when it became too painful and too hard to keep going, I got out. Now, I get to walk away with a clean conscience, knowing that there is only one person responsible for the end of my M."...EXACTLY! And I wish you well in all your future endeavors.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Ron53:
<strong>
But, sometimes, it helps if someone grabs us on the shoulder and stops us in our frenzy to recover and points out the folly of our current actions and suggests an alternative approach. Sometimes, folks can't "see the forest for the trees."

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ron, I don't think anyone is suggesting that challenging those who are posting here to examine what they are doing is a bad thing. But- I think the discourse should show mutual respect-and there should also be the understanding that you have not walked in the other's shoes- and cannot know when the other is ready to call it a day. Helping them determine that is one thing- judging them for not agreeing with you is another.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
<strong>
People on here continually talk like Plan A is "changing yourse;f" and that it is a time for "improving your self", well I disagree with alot of it. It all seems like a BIG GAME to me. They are tryign to creat this image of how good they are, and how great they will make life for the WS in the hopes of them getting the wife back. Menawhile, they are told to allow the affair to continue and not LB (i,e make any waves" b/c it might upset the Ws or be seen as judgemental behavior. How many posts do we see on here a day with people posting over and over again how their WS "lied again", or is "seeing the OP again". People are reduced to getting voice recorders, and intenret tracking software to "make sure things are ok". Good god !!!!!! And ofcourse all of this behavior is supported and encouraged. I was interested in the comment you made about how the marriage will change and the fact that 100% trust in your WS may never occur. I am sure that many people here who are "recovered" deep down feel the same way, but instead preach differently. That is my story in a nutshell. Thanks for asking. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">lemonman, you poor guy. You must feel like you wandered into the Twilight Zone and I can relate completely! I agree with much of what you say, but there are a couple of things I believe you are misinterpreting. I think your instincts are otherwise very good and suspect you have a low tolerance for time wasting plots. I am an action person myself.

The purpose of discontinuing lovebusters is not to "trick" the WS into coming back, but rather to NOT push them away. Lovebusters serve to help the affair by giving the WS a rationalization for the affair.

The purpose of Plan A is to end the affair, plain and simply. It is designed to attract the spouse back to the fold by meeting the needs that caused them to fall in love in the first place. Its purpose is NOT to REWARD them for acting like skanks. It doesn't mean that one ignores infidelity.

Nor is it's purpose to "improve oneself." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Improving oneself may well be the result, but that is not the point. The point is to END THE DANG AFFAIR, not to embark on some silly, ill-timed, mission to "find oneself."

Plan A is not meant to be a way of life, as you see in many cases here. Staying in Plan A for too long is an ABUSE of Plan A and only serves to enable the affair. The BS becomes an ENABLER when this happens, and sadly, we have many enablers here.

Plan A is meant to be endured for 3-6 months. If the affair is not ended by then, then one should move onto Plan B. The longer the affair is allowed to exist, the greater the chances that the marriage will never recover because of the resentment of the BS and the advancement of the affair. And as I said earlier, a prolonged Plan A only serves to enable the WS. What WS wants to give up 2 women when he doesn't have to? Unless Plan B is implemented, there is no motivation.

Now onto the trust issue. When a BS agrees to stay in a damaged marriage, they are settling for an untrustworthy person. That comes with the territory. We understand that trust has to be earned and it that it would be pure folly to blindly trust anyone again, most especially our untrustworthy spouses. For me, my H has earned my trust again through his actions. But will I ever blindly trust him again? No way, no how.

People snoop for several reasons and it is no more undecorous than it is for the FBI to snoop on tax cheats. If a spouse is destroying you behind your back, you have a responsibility to protect yourself. There is nothing sleazy about exposing such destructive behavior. No one has the right to the privacy to destroy their spouse behind their back. Its a shame that folks are put in that position, but such is life.

This is a thumbnail sketch of the MB program and some of my observances. What you will observe around here, and the source of your alarm IMO, is that there are people here who do not really want help. They want to come here to vent and yack to others, but are not willing to lift a finger to help themselves. These are folks that I call Plan A abusers. They take the path of least resistence and will argue with you if you offer a logical plan of action. I usually avoid those folks and move onto the ones who truly want to do something. If folks won't lift a finger to help themselves, I am not going to lift a finger to post to them.

[thats not the only reason I don't post to someone, but one reason. Like most around here, I post to those whom I think I have something to offer, to whom I can relate]

<small>[ October 23, 2004, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But- I think the discourse should show mutual respect-and there should also be the understanding that you have not walked in the other's shoes- and cannot know when the other is ready to call it a day. Helping them determine that is one thing- judging them for not agreeing with you is another. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sad, I am not sure what you mean by "judging" but most folks that are familiar with the MB principles can easily "judge" if a person - after hearing their situation - has been in Plan A too long. That is not judging to tell them this. That is our PURPOSE here. We are here to help them. That doesn't mean we will all agree on the timing, but thats ok, its good to look at several viewpoints.

And of course we haven't walked in their shoes, that doesn't mean we can't objectively assess a situation. In fact, usually the LEAST objective person in the marriage are the BS and WS.

<small>[ October 23, 2004, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The purpose of Plan A is to end the affair, plain and simply. It is designed to attract the spouse back to the fold by meeting the needs that caused them to fall in love in the first place. Its purpose is NOT to REWARD them for acting like skanks. It doesn't mean that one ignores infidelity. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AND...once the spouse is back in the fold, it doesn't mean that the BS can go back to lovebusting and not meeting needs. I can honestly see where a WS might be skeptical about the "change" in their WS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> They take the path of least resistence and will argue with you if you offer a logical plan of action. I usually avoid those folks and move onto the ones who truly want to do something. If folks won't lift a finger to help themselves, I am not going to lift a finger to post to them.

[thats not the only reason I don't post to someone, but one reason. Like most around here, I post to those whom I think I have something to offer, to whom I can relate]
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Yeah...but You don't understand"....is usually the first words out of those posters mouth.


If I had a dollar for everytime that phrase was used on this site I would be a millionaire! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

You are one smart cookie ML, you seem to KNOW which ones are doing that. I have watched you attempt to help someone...and they are fighting you tooth and nail. IMHO, that is someone who doesn't really want the help because it would be too much work, or too scary, or the drama in the relationship is the ONLY thing that keeps them going. I really believe that people are addicted to the dramas in their life. To live without that would be a death sentence for them.

This site (more often than not) is simply used as a venting board...and the classic "support" board...as in, if you cannot tell me what I am doing is right, and the best that I can do, and that my spouse is a peckerwood of the biggest kind..then please do not post to me. I come here for "support"...I do not come here to have people tell me that I am doing something wrong. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

What a waste of keystrokes for them...and for the people responding to them.

Plan B is "modified" to suit their needs. Plan B is an all or nothing thing. NO contact is NO contace...NO excuses.

I do like the way you bow out of threads where it is evident that nothing you say is getting through to the poster. I just wish that I had that good sense at times. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

JMHO
committed

Thanks much, committed, I agree with every word. Sometimes I find it hard to pull myself away too, so I know exactly what you mean.

I think where I went wrong in my thinking was assuming that everyone who comes here really wants to resolve their situation. Some plainly do not. Some like the status quo and simply want to vent here. And that is their preogative. There are people here who will gladly commiserate and give them sympathy. It wont' be me, though! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by committedandlovingit:
<strong>AND...once the spouse is back in the fold, it doesn't mean that the BS can go back to lovebusting and not meeting needs. I can honestly see where a WS might be skeptical about the "change" in their WS.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">P.S. Thanks for making that point, it needed to be emphasized.

Personally, I really love it when LM posts one of his "Stop and think" posts to a BS who appears to be dieting on WS-poo-poo!... A new view is always a good thing when the current perspective is not working out well...


What I do want to do is recover emotionally.

How long have you been divorced?

How long was your M?

Where are you in your timeline?

Got kids?

I do not subscribe to many of the principles of this site...namely the Plan A method that MANY posters on here extrapolate into pride swallowing doormat behavior (disclaimer: my opinion only).

Pride swallowing is a part of life in case you haven't noticed <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> It's a tricky thing learning when to swallow and when to spit out.

I do think the Plans have merit if used correctly, BUT I THINK far too many people misapply them and really humiliate and devalue themselves in the process (disclaimer: my opinion only).

YES YES YES ... misapplication of the plans can destroy a marriage faster than other means of dealing with a spouse's affair..

I think too many people here want to save the marriage (on paper) and use the excuse of "saving the family", but the harm that they put their kids through in "saving the marriage" is far more painful than divorcing (this is my opinion).

I don't know how you can measure this... but I accept this as your opinion, not sure I agree because kids REALLY want both parents in the home (unless one is a meanie or something else like a drunk)

Letting a WH/WS back time and time again with the hope "that they will stay this time if I just PLAN A better" is a disgrace IMO.

YES YES YES!!!!

Perhgaps I need to learn more. I am willing to try. I will *try* my best to limit feedback b/c I know what I say will usually not be appreciated by those trying to live this way. Anyways, thanks for your post.

How's life going for you?

Pep

<small>[ October 23, 2004, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sadfww:

And if you think you could *NEVER* be guilty of infidelity- think again. We all have failings, lemonman, and by thinking that you personally are *above and beyond* such behavior you are setting yourself up for failing in future relationships. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have to defend LM's statement here ... because I agree with him. I will **NEVER** be guilty of adultery!! Why? ---> because it is something within my power to control and I choose NOT to.

Adultery is a choice. I choose "other" when adultery is a choice presented to me in life.

And.... I have educated myself about the subject which protects me from "falling" into an affair.... because I will see it comming. As would YOU SadFww ... now that you have educated yourself.

He is not setting himself up for failure in future relationships because he rejects adultery with every fiber in his being !! What a comment!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I can say I will **NEVER** beat my child into unconsciousness... am I setting myself up for failure as a parent???

Pep

<small>[ October 23, 2004, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Common misapplication of Plan A:

*Plan A has a purpose...and one purpose only...to end affairs. Many people will use a very short version to bring a spouse out of withdrawal or in the very early part of recovery...but it should never be used past that first stage of recovery or with marriage problems that are not about infidelity. And it should absolutely NEVER be used with an addictive or abusive spouse because it tends to make those situations worse.

*Plan A requires no reciprocity (which puts the BS at a distinct disadvantage)...so it has a time limit to prevent folks from becoming doormats whose needs go unmet forever. The time limit is three months for men and six months for women (but it can certainly be much shorter if the WS is really nasty or moves in with the OP. After 3 to 6 monts...you get incredibly diminishing returns and eventually....you end up used and abused.

*Plan A has 4 parts....not just 2 (like most people use). 1) stop lovebusting 2) fill needs that you are comfortable with 3) expose the affair 4) confront the WS with your feelings about the affair. If you aren't doing all of it (and it should be done simultaneously) you aren't in Plan A. Most people are squeamish about the last two...consequently...it doesn't work or it sets up the BS for more bad treatment.

*Plan A has NOTHING to do with being "nice" (bleck!) or being a "better person". It's about showing that the marriage is an attractive alternative to an affair. You can't love bust...but you sure don't have to be "nice" in the sense that "put up with" a bunch of poor treatment, waffling, lack of commitment, lack of honesty etc. Instead you "confront" those things recognizing that you can't "control" those things.

*Folks who are doormats or who do this plan indefinitely are not doing Plan A.

*Plan A has a time limit, because there is a Plan B that is DEFINITELY NOT about being a doormat or placating a waffling fogged up WS. It's not a plan to make the spouse miss you or to shock him into waking up (it can do that)...the main purpose is to protect love (by ending conflict and chaos) and force the OP to meet ALL of the WS needs (not an easy task).

Lemonman I share your frustration with folks who use Plan A for everything or who use it improperly or incompletely. It puts them in a postion to be abused....and they often are.

committed:

"I have watched you attempt to help someone...and they are fighting you tooth and nail. IMHO, that is someone who doesn't really want the help because it would be too much work, or too scary, or the drama in the relationship is the ONLY thing that keeps them going. I really believe that people are addicted to the dramas in their life. To live without that would be a death sentence for them."

I have SO been there, as you probably remember. I think the thing I worry about is the implication that these people are "given up on" by the seasoned MBers. I don't think that's the case, even with Mel (though I'll let her speak for herself).

I think of this "phase" that I believe that I went through, 2 be a necessary "slogging through the pain" experience for many. When it goes on a long time, it might seem like it's going 2 last forever. I won't argue that it isn't wasted time, either, at least in cases where nothing gets through for a long time and said poster flops around not getting it. But, in most cases, I think a point probably IS reached when something triggers a synapse and a microstep in evolution of thought DOES occur.

I've had 2 learn patience because of the length of my M, the duration of the A, and... ...well, I can be dense sometimes (being a PhD in geology helps me figure ROCKs out pretty well, but it isn't all that useful in social interactions). I'm grateful that my flopping around didn't drive the best MBers away from my once very dramatic posts.

GC: You GET this stuff. You understand that this isn't just an exercise in application of methods. We do this because, in spite of their current wild and crazy behavior, there's still a love there lying dormant that is worth trying 2 save.

Committed: How's your brother doing? I miss him. Please give him my regards.

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But- I think the discourse should show mutual respect-and there should also be the understanding that you have not walked in the other's shoes- and cannot know when the other is ready to call it a day. Helping them determine that is one thing- judging them for not agreeing with you is another. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sad, I am not sure what you mean by "judging" but most folks that are familiar with the MB principles can easily "judge" if a person - after hearing their situation - has been in Plan A too long. That is not judging to tell them this. That is our PURPOSE here. We are here to help them. That doesn't mean we will all agree on the timing, but thats ok, its good to look at several viewpoints.

And of course we haven't walked in their shoes, that doesn't mean we can't objectively assess a situation. In fact, usually the LEAST objective person in the marriage are the BS and WS. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Objectively assessing and judging a situation - and offering your perspective- are different then judging a person, Melody.

This is what I was speaking to:

Quote from lemonman

"I have no right to judge people for doing this. Sometimes it takes every fibre of my being not to want to scream and yell at someone for how stupid and wimpoy and how much of a doormat they are looking like. It is quite comical at times for me to see my reactions to certain posts.....but I digress.......I am trying to get better at not judging these folks no matter how pathetically sad there strategis are.. It is noy my right to tell them this and I am gettgin better everyday."

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

((( Star*Fish)))

I love your contribution to this thread girl!

Pep

Lemonman....just wanted to add this. While I share your frustration, what I do NOT share is your style of posting (which I'm not saying is a good or bad thing). I remember that folks here are in great pain...and my first responsibility is not just to give good advice, but also not to cause further harm! I also do not "internalize" their stuff and let it upset me or offend me. Infidelity often has a huge impact of self esteem, on top of that, not all folks have the same level of coping skills, good alternatives, or a good support system so making self-affirming choices is not as easy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sadfww:

And if you think you could *NEVER* be guilty of infidelity- think again. We all have failings, lemonman, and by thinking that you personally are *above and beyond* such behavior you are setting yourself up for failing in future relationships. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have to defend LM's statement here ... because I agree with him. I will **NEVER** be guilty of adultery!! Why? ---> because it is something within my power to control and I choose NOT to.

Adultery is a choice. I choose "other" when adultery is a choice presented to me in life.

And.... I have educated myself about the subject which protects me from "falling" into an affair.... because I will see it comming. As would YOU SadFww ... now that you have educated yourself.

He is not setting himself up for failure in future relationships because he rejects adultery with every fiber in his being !! What a comment!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I can say I will **NEVER** beat my child into unconsciousness... am I setting myself up for failure as a parent???

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think you understood what I was saying, Pep- my fault. (Part of my problem with posting to lemonman is that I see so much of my father and my father's actions in him- so that is my personal bias which means that I should probably bow out of this thread.)

If you look at Dr. Harley's quote- that I quoted-the point is that as long as you assume that you could NEVER be tempted- you will not guard against it- and that can lead to problems. I rephrased it but not very artfully.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />