I am in the process of reading "Love Must Be Tough" by Dobson. This book is really resonating with me.

I'll admit that I'm not too sure how to Plan A well -- I seem to be unable to grasp it as of yet. Maybe I'm making it too complicated, but it just feels like I'm having to be a doormat. I know that there's nothing that isn't tough about Plan A, but I was wondering about combining these two methods.

Has anyone tried this? What kind of results did you see? Opinions?

I did.

I was in the middle of that book when WW came over one night. Totally did a 180 on her and acted like I didn't care if she was there or not. Had her asking questions for a week. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I'll probably do it again when I feel like I need to.

Basically, when I began to feel like a doormat I simply pulled back and took a breather from the happy Plan A personna. She asked, "Were you ok the other day it didn't seem like you wanted to talk to me?" To which I replied "Yeah, that's kind of how I felt." Then don't discuss it any longer. Leave them wondering..... I applied this as I needed it for my personal healing. Us BS must not be afraid to heal right?!?!?

If you are not too sure about how to plan A then get back to reading about it. It's the bread basket of the program! Try looking over the link in my sig for a pointer session.

C.

<small>[ October 23, 2004, 12:34 AM: Message edited by: shmaley ]</small>

That book is good.

Yes...i believe you can combine the two but you must be separated to this.

To do tough love you must separated and then you do plan A while you are separated. It is easier to go into plan B after that if necessary.

I am doing plan A and tough love together in a way. Keep communication line open. Be firm in your boundaries and your stand. At the same time do not push her away too far. Keep talking to your WS. Talking is also important. Start giving her a lot of infomation regarding affairs etc etc. Dont forget to expose if you have the opportunity.

Try to understand that your WS is also in a struggle herself to understand. The position they are in is also not comfortable and happy. They are in conflict and miserable. You have to be compassionate but firm.

Tell her that her actions is hurting you and explain why. She will not like your boundaries and may fight you back. Do your best to avoid a full blown arguement because this will not help.

You will eventually get very very tired with the feeling that you are a doormat. Just do your best to stick as long as you can. When you are ready go into plan B...take care

Rykon,

I read the book too; it really struck a chord with me as well. Of course I read it too late…and I found MB too late…..ah well. I’d like to give you my perception of the two, Plan A and tough love, that I have in retrospect. I think they mesh nicely

If I was to do my Plan A again, I would pretty much treat my spouse as a house guest. You know…you’re on your best behavior in their presence, you don’t display annoying habits, no yelling, disrespectful judgments, house kept tidy….well, you get the picture. House guests also have to be on their best behavior too. If they take too many liberties, they may be asked to leave. So it is the BS job to point out when they cross the line. That means they know when their behavior is sub par, it’s your duty to let them know

Tell them when you know about the liaisons, the Emails, the phone calls. Tell them the pain it causes you, the children and your family. Do it lovingly. Also….lovingly, expose them. Don’t tell them when or to whom, but call the spouse of the OM/OW…then let them know you did it. The BS will then stamp their feet and say horrible things. Don’t be scared or hurt by it…relish in what you’ve accomplished. Tell them you are fighting for your family. Affair keeps going; you then call the WS family, your family and then tell the WS again…lovingly….what you did. Foot stomps, terrible language….yadda yadda.
Affair continues….neighbors, friends…and work if necessary and they are coworkers.
These are the consequences Dobson writes about.

If money is being stolen from the family to finance the affair that stops too. Accounts get closed, credit cards cancelled etc. All the time you righteously justify your behavior as defending your family. You don’t’ have to be a doormat, just don’t allow yourself to be provoked into a screaming match. Keep things light. When they misbehave…let them know. Give what they want and need, in spite of their ugliness. Don’t cower from their caustic words and actions; in fact you can calmly let them know they are hurting your feelings with their barbs. But don’t retaliate, and don’t show them your soft underside. Respectfully decline to be mistreated or manipulated.

I think Dobson’s book describes the consequence part of it in excellent detail. “Like a thunderclap” he writes describing how it should be delivered. He says the crisis should not be mitigated with weak or lack of action by the WS. Fits plan A just fine IMHO. The “letting go” part is more Plan B. I don’t think the WS should be ignored in plan A, but worse, don’t smother them either.

G'night

^^bump^^

I've read "Love must be tough" and it was a really good book, although I read it during my inability to concentrate on anything stage, so I can't even remember what on earth it said now, I should re-read it.

My Plan A is working out pretty well, even though I am separated. I also found the Marriage Builders site too late (well since plan A works better when you actually live with the person).

My husband isn't even actually having an affair, he's in some Mid life crisis, but I think the Plan A technique still applies. I am meeting as many of his EN's as I can not living with him. And I guess I do apply some of the Love Must Be Tough stuff on occasion, because at times, it gets to be too much....so I too pull back.

Good luck with you're combo <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

-Caren

I just posted this on lemonman's thread...but I think it might be helpful for you here. As you can see....a proper application of Plan A is quite tough and fits in relatively well with Dobson's work:

Common misapplication of Plan A:

*Plan A has a purpose...and one purpose only...to end affairs. Many people will use a very short version to bring a spouse out of withdrawal or in the very early part of recovery...but it should never be used past that first stage of recovery or with marriage problems that are not about infidelity. And it should absolutely NEVER be used with an addictive or abusive spouse because it tends to make those situations worse.

*Plan A requires no reciprocity (which puts the BS at a distinct disadvantage)...so it has a time limit to prevent folks from becoming doormats whose needs go unmet forever. The time limit is three months for men and six months for women (but it can certainly be much shorter if the WS is really nasty or moves in with the OP. After 3 to 6 monts...you get incredibly diminishing returns and eventually....you end up used and abused.

*Plan A has 4 parts....not just 2 (like most people use). 1) stop lovebusting 2) fill needs that you are comfortable with 3) expose the affair 4) confront the WS with your feelings about the affair. If you aren't doing all of it (and it should be done simultaneously) you aren't in Plan A. Most people are squeamish about the last two...consequently...it doesn't work or it sets up the BS for more bad treatment.

*Plan A has NOTHING to do with being "nice" (bleck!) or being a "better person". It's about showing that the marriage is an attractive alternative to an affair. You can't love bust...but you sure don't have to be "nice" in the sense that "put up with" a bunch of poor treatment, waffling, lack of commitment, lack of honesty etc. Instead you "confront" those things recognizing that you can't "control" those things.

*Folks who are doormats or who do this plan indefinitely are not doing Plan A.

*Plan A has a time limit, because there is a Plan B that is DEFINITELY NOT about being a doormat or placating a waffling fogged up WS. It's not a plan to make the spouse miss you or to shock him into waking up (it can do that)...the main purpose is to protect love (by ending conflict and chaos) and force the OP to meet ALL of the WS needs (not an easy task).

Star*fish,

That's awesome. I really appreciate your insight. I don't know why, but I just wasn't figuring out the whole Plan A thing. Maybe the way I understood it just didn't seem right at all.

What you have explained makes good sense.

anyone else?

am in the process of reading "Love Must Be Tough" by Dobson. This book is really resonating with me.


That's because he is right on the money on what works the BEST to bring back a distant lover.

From my experience on here I have rarely seen Plan A work. Rarely. Now that is my honest opinion. Veterans on this site cringe when I say this, but they do know that it is true. Somehow they make the leap that for Plan B to work you MUST have done a good Plan A. I disagree strongly. There is no proof of that. As a matter of fact I think going directly to Plan B which is more like Dobsons love must be tough philosophy works much better and faster without Plan A. The only thing that you may want to do first is to expose the affair and let her know that if it continues then she will come home and YOU WILL BE GONE. And then if she continues you FOLLOW through on that promise.

The main things to show when going through this trial of yours is CONFIDENCE, SELF ESTEEM, SELF RESPECT. The faster the better. People on here continually tell you to tell the WS "how much this hurts you". Again, I disagree. Tell them once when you confront them, say it confidently, then SHOW them that you can and will move on without them because LOVE MUST BE EXCLUSIVE.

It is this type of strength in resolve that brings them back because people are attracted to confidence. This is why Plan B works more often and so much better thana Plan A. Plan B starts to work because the WS at some point starts to sense that you have let go. It is at the point they start to sense that you let go, that they may want to wander back into the relationship.

Read Dobson's book in depth. Read it again.
At one point in his own counseling, his methods helped to restore 8 out of 19 marriages. That is an incredibly high ratio of success, with marriages on the brink of divorce. I do not see that kind of success on here. I believe there are over 38,000 registered members on here. I see some success, but it is almost always when the BS goes to Plan B and it is almost always when the WS thinks the BS has let go.

This is not to criticize this site and all it stands for, but part of the MB philosophy is 'RADICAL HONESTY, so for me to not tell the truth as I see it would be agains their own philosohy and morals.

keep,

From my experience on here I have rarely seen Plan A work. Rarely. Now that is my honest opinion.

Ah...nothing personal, but your experience consists of 7 posts? hmmm...even if you've been lurking for quite a while...I doubt seriously that you could claim serious experience. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Veterans on this site cringe when I say this, but they do know that it is true.

How often exactly have veterans had the chance to cringe in only 7 posts? (I checked your other six posts and the only opportunity I had to cringe was when you suggested that a married woman whose husband was involved in an A

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Let him see you moving on and dating and seeming to enjoy it. That will wake him up. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">which is essentially starting her OWN affair. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I can tell you right now that Dobson does NOT recommend more infidelity to fight infidelity.

And secondly...I consider myself a veteran and I don't think anything of the sort. It is my experience that if a marriage is going to recover from infidelity (not all do)....the affair usually ends and recovery begins during Plan A...and long before Plan B. Jumping straight to Plan B without any Plan A at all...leaves the last memory the WS has as not very attractive. So I do honestly and most fervently believe that the BS who can show a willingness to stop lovebusting and address their own problems (as well as expose and confront)...has a distinct advantage when they go to Plan B...rather than simply ending contact right off the bat. When they part, the last impression the WS has is that his spouse is aware of how they contributed to the vulnerability of the marriage. I think it counts. Guess Harley does too.

Somehow they make the leap that for Plan B to work you MUST have done a good Plan A. I disagree strongly. There is no proof of that. As a matter of fact I think going directly to Plan B which is more like Dobsons love must be tough philosophy works much better and faster without Plan A.

Actually....I prefer a much shorter Plan A than most folks here do, and with multiple affairs or affairs that go on longer than 2 years...I prefer little to no Plan A. However, so few people actually do a complete and comprehensive Plan A...that it's hard to decide whether Plan A is too long, doesn't work, or whether it's misapplied so often that the benefits are lost.....so I understand your frustration a bit. I agree with you that if it isn't done well...it serves very little purpose. However, I have seen many many people who HAVE done a good Plan A and gotten good results.

The only thing that you may want to do first is to expose the affair and let her know that if it continues then she will come home and YOU WILL BE GONE. And then if she continues you FOLLOW through on that promise.

Not everyone responds well to threats....especially fogged up wayward spouses.

Let's look at the elements of Plan A...the real Plan A...and discuss their usefulness.

1. Stop Lovebusting. It's almost impossible to encourage someone involved in an affair to come back home if you are being disrespectful, having angry outbursts, being dishonesty, etc. The affair partner is certainly NOT love busting...so it's really in the BS best interest (in ANY relationship) to begin respectful dealings and control emotions.

2. Fill Needs that you feel comfortable filling, recognizing that the WS may not want you to. Well, since one the things that affairs do is fill needs for the WS...and the neglect of their needs within marriage is often directly related to the desire to have an affair...taking a good hard look at if/how you've neglected your spouse can help the WS realize that he doesn't need to go outside of the marriage to have his needs met. I don't like folks to "cater" to WSs...be even "nicer" to WS!! Nope...Plan A is not about fear...it's about strategy. So coddling, catering, placating is not part of Plan A. That still leaves lots of room for showing that you are willing stop neglecting his needs (if you have). There are plenty of instances where infidelity does NOT happen because of unmet needs...in those cases....I certainly don't tell folks to start doing MORE!!

3. Exposure...destroys secrecy. Absolutely essential.

4. Confrontation....Let's the WS know how much his selfish actions are hurting others.

So which part of Plan A don't you like? Or think should be changed?

<small>[ October 24, 2004, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

Star*fish,

Did you expose to WS family during Plan A? I've been going back and forth on this one. I don't know whether I should do it now or when I start Plan B. I know that her parents mean a lot to her and her mom would be furious (I think). Her mom has mentioned in the past that if she ever found out one of her girls had an A, she would make them stop seeing the OM.

WW is coming back from a business trip with the OM -- and others -- this Tuesday. She is *hopefully* using this time to determine if she wants to work on our M. She said that she wants to work on our M before she left. I think if a decision isn't made, I'm going to expose this to my in-laws. This is a really tough one for me.

rykon,

Exposure was not necessary for me, because my H had ONSs...they were over by the time I found out.

However, I'm finishing up my certification as a marriage coach through the International Association of Coaches and the School of Coaching at symc. Currently I mentor couples struggling through infidelity and those tapes will be reviewed for the final stage of my certification.

Exposure is one of the strongest and most necessary parts of ending affairs....especially when NC cannot be established or affairs have become entrenched. The right time to do it is Plan A. Why? Because in Plan B....it is viewed far more as revenge, sour grapes and simply vindictive. When you are actively trying to save your marriage is when you should expose.

The model of exposure I like best is done in steps. Because exposure is so traumatic...and can cause huge withdrawals...do the exposure that is necessary. Is the OM married...if so...then exposure begins with his wife. Wat and I recently discussed this....he called it a model of concentric circles:

At the center is the WS....they are the first to be told what you know and how you know it. Just outside of that circle is the other BS (if there is one). Together...they are the first line of defense against no contact. If contact ends....exposure goes no farther. If contact continues after it has been revealed to them....close family (parents, siblings on both sides) plus a trusted pastor or priest... are the next circle. If contact ends...it goes no further. If contact resumes, close friends/neighbors who are also friends of the marriage would be informed. If contact still continues....the last circle are work and church.

Hope this helps.

Star*fish,

Congrats on going for that certification. You know, I've been thinking about going in that direction myself. That will be a ways down the road though.

I wish the OM had a W. They were just divorced within the past year. She had had multiple A's. I think that makes me even more mad at the guy.

Anyway, do you have any suggestions for exposing this to her family?

While she "seems" to be headed towards wanting to recover, she hasn't said that there will be NC yet. As a matter of fact, she doesn't want to leave her job and neither of them will be able to transfer out any time soon. She did promise me that she would do so as soon as it was possible. I take all of this with a grain of salt, but it keeps me hanging in here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Good luck with the certification Star*fish. I appreciate the responses that you have given me.

rykon,

Okay...if there is no other spouse, then yes...I think it's time to tell her parents as your first line of defense. It would go something like this:

MIL, FIL....I am so sorry to burden you with this information but I need your help. I love____and I'm trying very hard to save my marriage. She is involved in an affair with _____ from work....she has admitted this to me and was with him this past weekend. I can forgive her and I know we can rebuild our marriage, but I'm hoping that the two of you will help me to bring her back home. We can't go on until the affair ends, and so far, that isn't happening. Any help you can give me is appreciated....and again, I'm so sorry for asking... but sometimes "it takes a village to save a marriage."

bump

Rykon,
I am very pleased to see Star has been posting here. She is one of the BEST! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I want to be careful & not distract from her insights, but hopefully add some. You are getting lots of good advice!!

Many would hesitate to uncover the WS deceptions & disrespectful acts against the BS & the marriage. I said it that way to hopefully reinforce your strength in going forward with the steps Star is recommending. The WS will not be happy about this because she will likely be embarrassed & she may go into a tyrant because she has lost some control. It will definitely take away from these great feelings that she has even expressed about having the attention of two guys! She has been in the FOG – not dealing in reality – her fantasy world!

I would be very surprised that in her current state, she has had the will power not to have contact with the OM at this convention – stay-over thing. Have you had much contact with her? I don’t know how you could trust her in that scenario. Me & I believe TooMUchCoffeeMan (he is another good one!) were talking about strategies to prevent an A – Radical Honesty & Accountability – Which is where you need to get, but this would naturally be very difficult to establish over the phone while she is away – and with the OM – even with a group! And of course this would come after she agreed to NC & to work on the M! But she did say that was what she wanted to do, right? Maybe just asking that question over the phone, would give you a feel? But again, I am sure she can be very convincing in her deceptions!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
I just want to reinforce the idea that you have every right to expose her infidelity, like Star said, for the sake of the marriage! It is a strange thing, but it seems people have a hesitance to expose such things – for example, even people that are friends of a couple that know one is being unfaithful will many times not tell the BS. They say they do not want to be the one to create problems, UGH!! It is the WS that created the problem!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

It seems that your WW may have a real obsession. In this example, please do not under estimate a person’s ability to deceive – Not to be truthful & spin their own tales. In my case I had busted my X 20 years earlier with an A. She begged me not to tell anyone. I agreed & I swept it under the rug. I knew it would be different the next time around. With the then current exposure of her A(1-17-01), I learned something about what she reported to her family the first time, 20 years earlier. With her knowing I was not going to say anything, she had told her family that it was me that had the A (twenty years earlier)!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Back to the WS ability of deception. Did you know of the OM before? Are you sure he is Divorced? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Particularly if this has been going on for a while & he has some experience with A’s – even as a BS; they may have devised schemes to protect themselves in case they got caught.

Sounds like you are doing well! Keep up the good work!
Peace be with you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
HH

Thanks Hurrian Hoosier! BTW, it was on your recommendation that I got the book "Love Must Be Tough". I appreciate that.

She has been calling a few times a day. We also have instant messaging and have been contacting each other using that. I believe that she is being honest with me right now. She talked to me and wrote me a note before she left about how we need to be really honest with each other now. I'm still cautious, but a little more hopeful.

I know that she has had contact with OM. They and about 4 others are working very closely at this getaway. I just don't know how much contact they have had. I haven't asked over the phone. I am going to ask when she gets here. We are going to talk about what she wants to do. She realizes that if she wants to work on the M, she can't even be friends with OM -- her words.

The only problem that I can see -- other than her not being honest with me -- is that they will still have contact since they work in the same department. She said that she would have to keep contact strictly business-related until either he or she could get out of the department -- the departments here at work aren't really letting anyone transfer at the moment.

BTW, I'm a Hoosier myself.

No chere...she would need to find another job...and if you back down on that...you're asking for trouble. Why should you spend the next months worrying every time she leaves for work about whether that relationship has had the opportunity to rekindle. This is what Dobson and Harley have in common....and they are both "tough". I think those gentleman would both agree that quitting her job and finding something that doesn't undermine her marriage is an essential part of what you need to feel safe enough to continue. She will try and convince you that it's not necessary...that she can do it...but she's too fogged to trust right now so be realistic.

(((((((((((((rykon)))))))))))))

Rykon,
It is difficult to be both practical and wise regarding the job situation, especially with all the emotions running through you right now. I allowed my WW to convince me that changing jobs wasn't practical or necessary. We couldn't afford it; it would hurt her career; she wanted to prove to me and herself that she could stay and not cheat; the list goes on. The result was that the affair reignited without skipping a beat. It was another three months before I finally clued in. DO NOT put yourself through this heartbreak. If you spouse REALLY wants to end the A and recover they will find a way to transfer or will find a new job. BUT you must insist on it.
-BS