Good point, TTSi. You are right. We need to establish what we are doing first and then plan next steps. I will try to plan my approach as you suggest. WH like to go from moment to moment and thinks it will all work out somehow. I like a goal and a plan so I will try to "soft-close" him on this so I don't just jerked around.
I never thought I would end up being a sugar mama <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<small>[ October 27, 2004, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: SureSurvivor ]</small>

If he does expect you to pay for it all, I'd decline. At least until you were well underway in a real recovery.
Otherwise, my bets are on him running off on his own once you get to where ever he wants to go.

SS - I am sorry to say that I agree, it sounds like the fog closed in and the aliens have abducted him again.

I might be wrong, but from your postings it sounds like every time you go dark on him, he tries hard to break plan b and pull you back into his foggy world. Maybe you need to make up your mind up and just PLAN B the hell out of him. (well I think we both know we should be doing this to our respective WS's)

I am seeing the same pattern in my WS, and that is what I am going to do. She has been pulling me back in with whatever excuse she can to initiate contact. Me the softy (sucker) has knowingly let her do this. I find that I actually feel worse after talking to her, this in itself should have been enough to covince me to do a "proper plan B" from the start..

I think we should both take note of what the wiser more experienced MB'ers have been telling us about PLAN B, otherwise, why are we here.

Take care and keep posting.

SS - How are you today?

Hi RM,

Thanks for asking...how are you doing?

WH expected me to come by to visit him, but I went to workout class instead. I did not have cell phone on. WH called and called...even went by where I was staying to look for my car, but I was still in class. I turned on my phone when I finally got out of class--he was very angry and LB'd me. I told him that I did not argue with him. He decided to cool down and asked me to call him back. I was back at the hotel by now.

We spoke for about twenty minutes on the phone about our M. He recognizes that he has an "obsession" and feels he should remove himself from the stimulus...which is why he wanted to go on a trip. Whoa, first time he has ever recognized his addition. We talked about our M and what were some of our shortcomings. He told me how he felt about his life and our M...he even apologized for his earlier outburst. He also said that he cared about me and wants me to be happy...which is the first time he has expressed anything like that in 8 months. For him, it was a hard conversation because he talked about his feelings. WH has asked me to join him on trip and spoke about the places we could go. I'm still not sure about this although Harley recommends couple to take a vacation together.

He left for a trip to work an out of town show--this is a high risk situation because the show is next to a show that OW and her constant companion works. I should not be talking with WH in first place, let alone travel with him--so I declined esp. with the high risk. He called me to say OW did not go. Her companion did go and WH was taunting him. Her companion came by to WH and "called him out." This is the same person who filed false battery charges. WH said, "what a mess I got myself into." Yes, dear, you are in a mess.

In the beginning of this thread, I was very concerned about returning to Plan B. After posting last night, I checked WH cell bill and they were together just Thursday so I KNOW now, it was the right decision even though it is modified. WH is trying harder (changed cell numbers and is telling me things) because he recognizes this is our last try. I am okay anyway it turns out. I wonder sometimes if I want to be around such dysfunctional people....is it healthy for me? I wonder.

How are you doing? How is your energy level? Are you getting out? Hope you are at peace tonight. Take care. SS

Do you think that maybe you need to find out if he's serious this time?
What about re-stating your conditions to him for you to allow him to return to the marriage?

Hi SS, lots of developments for you huh?

The more I read your posts the more I think that Plan B'ing your WS is shaking him off the fence. His going nuts when he can't contact you is I think a promising sign. It shows he is starting to realise that you are important to him / he is thinking about you.

TTSi and others are right though, you (and I for that matter) need to do a solid PLAN B. It sounds like WS is making some progress but you have to continue to safe gaurd yourself. You have made some hard calls already (i.e. refusing to go away with him) so maybe you should seriously consider going completely dark on him.

Things are at status quo right now. Went out last night, had too much to drink, but other than that life goes on ;-) I am going dark on WS right now so I have to be prepared for her finding any excuse. Like you it will be very difficult but I owe it to myself (and all the MB'ers that advised me) to do it).

Take Care RM

Hi MB'ers, Thanks for your thoughts.

The light bulb finally went on over my head <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Plan B is shaking WH off the fence and that is okay. He wants to go to on a trip which is great to perhaps finally establish NC and go into withdrawal. God knows, I would love a vacation and to hang out with him....but....that is short term thinking. What happens after that? What is our plan? What will we do to continue with a system to protect and build our M? That is where your suggestions and my boundaries come in. I can hold my breath under Plan B until the cows come home...but I think it sometimes seems unrealistic the WH will just come crawling back and give into all demands. I have concerns with the reality of that with a conflict-avoider liar.

I am going to ask for an action plan (sorry to use biz language), but words are one thing...actions are another. I finally get what you say....what actions will WH do for us beyond the trip...the trip is only one step in a journey.

I have to ask for these commitments at this time because if WH falls off wagon second time without telling me, I am likely to be outta here. It is up to me to ask for the action plan. Thanks for your thoughts...the light went on over my head....clarity. Take care, RM and TTSI. SS

<small>[ October 29, 2004, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: SureSurvivor ]</small>

That sounds like a great idea SS.
Remember, he can always say he'll do this or do that etc... If I were in your shoes, I would want to start seeing some actions that are in step with what he says. Although I would not mention that exactly to him. Otherwise, it makes it easier for him to play it like a game.

SS - How are you doing and how is your plan going? Hope all is well. Thinking of you!!

Cheers R-man

SS- How are you doing and hows it going in Plan B? Hope all's OK..

Hi RM,

I just posted a message to you on your thread in the D section.

I am doing okay. It had been about two weeks since I had moved out and spoke with him a little so it was a modified Plan B #2. He said he wanted to try again in the M because it was the right thing to do. I told him that I did not think he was ready and he agreed.

We stayed separated, but I did not stay in the same place so WH did not know where I was. He went to that show and was confronted by OW's constant companion who threatened WH and told him to stay away from her. WH started to recognize his feeling were an obession--both in getting revenge against her friend and his involvement with her.

Last Tuesday, I was trying to live my life and not trying to avoid him, but also not trying to be readily available to him either. He called and called...I was going to hang up on him, but he kept talking. I said...actions speak louder than words. Long story short, he asked to meet me--he gave me the 2nd cell phone and told me that he had bought out the contract and changed the number. He agreed to open up his life and to go to MC. I only need about 100 other trust-building things to be done for six months solid and then maybe I'll open up.

I moved back on Wednesday. We spent Thursday together which was hard for him because this was the OW meeting day. We spent part of Friday together and even went to a casino and had some fun. The weekend was good because we spent time together.

Now H left yesterday on an overseas trip and I am suppose to join him in two weeks.

I spoke with SH on Monday and he confirmed as all of you had that going to Plan B #2 was the absolute right thing to do. I did not want to put myself in the path of destruction again.

H seems more committed this time...he definitely has more feeling for me which means parts of Plan A worked. He said he felt closer to me than in many months. We talked about how I understand his need to run away from pain because that is what I did in the last few years by burying myself in work because it was my form of running away when my mom passed. He did not know that was how I felt. I told him that I realized his pain also because his mom got sick, his aunt and brother passed and we were both so wrapped up in pain and could not talk with one another that I think it lead to this situation.

H admits that we took one another for granted. He told me that it was not me. He told me that I was a good person, a non-materialistic person, a financially conservative person which is the way I was raised, not because I meant to ignore his wishes.

I have learned many valuable lessons. I am truly happier with parts of Plan A and can see making them a permanent part of a new M. We have more work to do to get on one page and there will be setbacks...but coaching would help give us direction and a plan.

I want to keep myself protected and go slow. I have about two weeks by myself and my reaction is whew....I need the breather. I hope he begins his withdrawal in that time and misses me. I sure have worked hard for this to happen and God has been so benevolent in this process. He has given me things when I was ready to have them which is what I wish for you and all the other MB'ers.

Thanks again for your concern....we will get through this. I hope these postings help someone out there. I know the postings of others helped me...helped me to feel less ashamed and embarassed and more normal in my reactions and work towards acceptance.

God bless you and may he watch over us all as we make our way in this journey.

Best, ss

SS - I am really proud of you. It's great that that you are getting advice from SH. It sounds like you are making progress with your H, although I agree you need to be very cautious and not move ahead too quickly.

Make sure you do some nice / enjoyable things for yourself whilst the H is away, God knows you deserve it . Also ensure that you work on improving yourself and address any of the issues you mentioned that led to your being here.

I am seeing similar effort and admissions from my WW at present and they are as a result of my short lived Plan B (even though I am no longer Plan B'ing) My only regret / wish is that she had made the effort 2 months ago.

Stick with it and keep your chin up, you will get through this!!

PS: Thanks I saw your posting and responded to you but do not want to threadjack you here.

SS - How are you doing? Are you keeping busy and working on yourself?

<small>[ November 14, 2004, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: RenaissanceMan ]</small>

Hi RM,

It is good to hear from you. Thanks for asking about me. I am doing okay this week.

H left for overseas and he has called me everyday....which now that I think about it, is rare for him. When he use to go away...it was a struggle for him to call me every three days.

I was upset mid-week because I checked caller id at home and saw that OW called our house on Nov. 2. WH was still here, but was not home...that was the day we got back together. I told WH about the calls and he said "that is upsetting." I don't know if he meant for me or for him. He asked how OW got our number and I said because you called her from home once. He reminded me that our number is restricted. I said okay, but it was her cell number. He figured out it might have been from when he had our number on his biz cards. He gave me permission to change our home phone, so I guess I will to.

We have been together and I have been asking what is our plan...but so far...only stalling or discussion....which I guess is par for the course....WS's think it will just heal on its own or time will heal it. (See Shattered Dream's post in recovery on what to expect from WS).

In today's conversation, I told WH that when he calls, I am glad that he is having an okay time and I'm okay with hearing about his trip, but not talking about our plan or M is like acting as if nothing happened. When pressured, then he will talk about the M...says he sees "us" together and wants to miss me. I have heard this so much it makes me gag. He called me again this evening which means he has interpretted my request for a plan as a need for him to call me more to talk about anything but M. Quantity instead of quality.

So all in all, I am in a holding pattern. Not moving forward, not moving back.

On a better note....I have plans for Thanksgiving. I am suppose to leave to join H two days after the holiday. I was feeling bad because I did not have plans. I decided to donate my time to serve a meal to others. I found a place five minutes from my home and so in typical giver fashion, I will be serving dinner to the less fortunate. I'm feeling good about that.

So RM...we are hanging in there....and this is a crummy thing...but good times are right around the corner. We have to work on us and get ready.

Thanks for your post and may God bless.

Best, SS <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

The calls are a good sign. Sounds like he has been thinking about you quite a bit, if he never used to call that often when away...
Good to hear you are doing alright. Hang in there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hey TTSi,

How ya doing? I saw your post on another thread and it sounds as if you were busy this weekend. It is good to be around people esp. family. I hope you were shown some love there so you feel less alone...human connection almost at any level is often a good thing. For me, I almost crave people to perceive me as whole or complete so I feel less wounded. Wierd, I know...but fake it until I make it.

Thanks for your thoughts about H's calling. I should try to see the glass as half empty and see him as trying. Like you, RM and others here, I am just so tired...but will try to make it more one with some help from my friends.

Good to hear from you, TTSi. Take care, SS

I know its tough to be optimistic about the calls. I also try to be an optimistic person in general, but it can be tough because you want to protect yourself from being let down all the time. Maybe you're the same way as well.

Yeah, the family time was good. It can make it tougher as well though. A lot of people in the family know at least some of what is going on. And I hate it when they try to pretend otherwise.....Maybe they're just trying to protect me, I don't know. Or, maybe they're trying not to pry, but it sure does make me upset.

TTSi,

In general, families want the best for you. They don't say anything for fear of upsetting you. They don't want you to get hurt, so they say, you should leave WS or in the case of my sister, talk about how happy someone is in a second marriage. In a large family gathering, the talk will mostly be generic or small talk. Once in a great while, you'll get those one on one's that are really meaningful or meaningful when you are ready to receive the message. I am sorry that it was upsetting to you and wish it had been a little more supportive environment.

You are right about the protection thing. More calls from him, but no real high quality message. So I don't really have a reason so far to not be protected. He has not really demonstrated that I can be safe in his presence. Just time alone will not allow me to let my guard down.

So glad to hear you are okay. Have a better week.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ss

<small>[ November 14, 2004, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: SureSurvivor ]</small>

Hi SS - I am glad to hear that you are keeping busy and you sound a bit more positive than when you first posted. I hope you don't mind but I have to be honest with you about a few things that concerned me when I read them in your last posting. These are only my opinion and I may be way off target.

================================================

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We have been together and I have been asking what is our plan...but so far...only stalling or discussion....which I guess is par for the course....WS's think it will just heal on its own or time will heal it. (See Shattered Dream's post in recovery on what to expect from WS).

In today's conversation, I told WH that when he calls, I am glad that he is having an okay time and I'm okay with hearing about his trip, but not talking about our plan or M is like acting as if nothing happened. When pressured, then he will talk about the M...says he sees "us" together and wants to miss me. I have heard this so much it makes me gag. He called me again this evening which means he has interpretted my request for a plan as a need for him to call me more to talk about anything but M. Quantity instead of quality </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">.

>>"It concerns me if you are pressuring him for answers as this may seem as a sign of weakness / desperation / neediness to your FWS. This may may serve to keep him at arms length, so keep that in mind. You are probably better off being a little aloof and making him come to you with plans and questions about your future. You have articulated what you want on several occassions so it's up to him now to make the effort. I am also concerned for you that your WS may still not be completely off the fence just yet. I think that you probably need to talk to SH about our modified plan B as he may tell you that you are better served to follow the standard plan B"
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So all in all, I am in a holding pattern. Not moving forward, not moving back. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">>> You should not be in a holding pattern. I made the mistake of waiting for my WS to come around. Whilst I sat on the bench waiting for her to change and WS knew it, she had no impetus to change. Only when I started doing things for myself / going dark / etc; did she start to realise what she may be giving up as a result of her indescrietions. I suddenly started going to movies, getting calls from friends, was nearly always on my way out when she rang (even if this was untrue) and sometimes did not answer the phone when I knew it was her calling. This served to make her wonder what I was doing and sparked her interest in me once she realised that I had a life and friends. I also never told her were I went or with whom I went out. It was always "with friends and out". When the time comes for you to "get back" together and work on your M, make sure that you have boundries defined well defined. Ensure that he understands the consequences of violating them.
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> On a better note....I have plans for Thanksgiving. I am suppose to leave to join H two days after the holiday. I was feeling bad because I did not have plans. I decided to donate my time to serve a meal to others. I found a place five minutes from my home and so in typical giver fashion, I will be serving dinner to the less fortunate. I'm feeling good about that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">>> That is an excellent thing to do. Helping others whilst helping yourself heal. I find that there is nothing that makes me feel better than helping others in need. You are as always "the little giver". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
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Next time you talk to SH, ask him about your modified plan B and get his opinion on it. Whatever advice he gives you, be strong and committ to follow it to the letter. You and I are too close to the action, so sometimes we do not see the big picture. People like SH can stand back and survey the territory from higher ground.


Take care and be strong, I am thinking of you - RM

<small>[ November 15, 2004, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: RenaissanceMan ]</small>