Hullo !

I recall ages ago KY posted to me that as recovery progressed feelings of romantic love returned for ST in chunks, which came more often until most of the time now they are the controlling emotion.

Could KY, Jen and others confrm this is how it works please ? I can only imagin ethe strange dynamics of thouhgts and emotions in a FWW earnestly trying to recover but I would liek some insight.

My FWW is now living almost normally to all intents and purposes. Restarted hobbies she used to have, a great mum, a highly sexed, funny and interesting partner to me *ahem*. She can;t discuss much about the A yet, but its only six weeks since NC so I'm not impatient. We have discussed teh fact that when she is strong enough we must discuss this stuff for both our sakes.

Thing is, FWW is behaving very lovingly and affectionately to me for the most part but has only said 'ILY' once, and that after mindblowing SF when emotions run high and tongues are loose.Also she still hans't destroyed the love letters/soppy CD etc that OM sent her either.

I have told her, gently but firmly that I cannot be truly happy with the progress of our Recovery until those triggers are destoyed. She has not responded yet.

Now We are in a better place than I could have dreamed a few weeks ago, but I still feel a little like the 'last chicken in the shop', a second choice to OM.

Can I expect loving words to follow loving deeds soon or are there other reasons for her not to verbalise her returing love for me?

I want to be what she needs me to be right now, and she won't let me in her head, ladies.

Can you help ?

Thanks !

ps. I really, really REALLY love the girl. I even have hopes I might get over this some day now. But I won't be second best to a ratbag like OM in my baby's thoughts, not for ever.

Bob- I have to tell you that of all the posters here - you are one of the ones that I admire the most. You have been so incredibly generous- not only to your wife but also to others posting here- with your time, energy and support.

As far as romantic love returning, I think it takes time. Please know that I am solely speaking from my own experience here- so I'm not sure whether it will be worth much. In any case, however, what I believe is that most women equate sex with love. In order for the *disconnect* to be overriden, we believe that we have fallen *in love* with the OM- and therefore have fallen OUT of love with our husbands. (to me - this is where fog comes in.) I think in almost all cases the *love* we believe we have for the OM is completely false- it does not exist.

Having said that, however, it takes time for the pretend *love* to completely go by the wayside- and part of that is the difficulty many of us have in admitting to ourselves how very wrong we were. Once we can get to the point that we can admit to ourselves that the *love* we believed is not (and never was) real love- the romantic love we have for our spouses can return....but even that takes time as that is the time as well that guilt, sadness and shame seem to envelope our very being.

Does this make one bit of sense? If not, please ignore me...as I said, I'm really just talking from my own experience.

Bless you, Bob- you really are an inspiration whether or not you are comfortable with that description.

<small>[ October 24, 2004, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: Sadfww ]</small>

Hey Bob!

So are you talking the romantic love that is like when you first met or the loving feelings between a husband and a wife, that closeness that can't be explained but you can't seem to live without. I think there is a huge difference between the two personally.

She hasn't really said the big three, ILY, but she is with you. That's got to mean something. Maybe it's shame that she is feeling? I don't know. I never went through that with my hubby, the not saying ILY bit.

As far as the OM stuff. I still have my cd full of sappy stuff. Actually, it's in the custody of my husband because he wanted to look through it. I haven't looked at it since a couple days after d-day. Personally I don't want to because it would rip me apart. I saw hubby reading the disk about two months back and I saw OM's picture for the first time since d-day and it devistated me. I don't want to see it again, it's too much. That my dear, to be quite honest, is the withdrawal and fog part of me talking. I still am dealing with it.

Hubby and I are hanging on to all the questions and letters we have written each other and when we finally feel like we have fully recovered, we are going to burn the whole lot, including the cd of stuff from the OM.

Bob, she is still getting over the OM. Maybe the reason she is not talking to you about stuff is that she doesn't want to hurt you. I have a hard time telling hubby about my tough moments because I know it hurts him, deeply. I feel bad enough as it is and then to see it in his eyes it just feels like I am stabbing him in the heart, over and over. Maybe your wife is thinking the same way. I don't know.

Anywho, I don't know if I am making sense. I have a migraine right now and the pain killers and my mind is all jumbled. Wow!

Hope this helped...

Well I have many questions:

I understand how a WW can be madly in love with OM and highly aroused by his physical attributes. I have read the emails my wife wrote----- so I know about it. Lets face it-------- it must be hard to switch that love from OM back to the BH.

Most FWWs say that in time they fall in love again with BH. However, I suspect others never regain those feelings for the BH.

I also suspect that some FWWs regain partial romantic feelings and may exaggerate the description of what they feel since they have decided to stay in the marriage for many other reasons besides just romance or love.

What is the BH supposed to do?

Wait for those feelings to come back?

For how long does one wait?

What if they never come back or the feelings that come back are only lukewarm?

At what point does one throw the towel if the feelings never come back to what they were when the marriage was not tainted by the affair? Is the marriage salvable at this point? If so---- How?

I will not accept bench-warmer or substitute status. If I don't get there I will be happy to call OM to pick WW up. I am not kidding------ I need to have the wife I had in the past. I will not settle for anything less!

Is this too much too ask?

<small>[ October 24, 2004, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

Chackler:

You said: EA lasted 3 months
First D-Day: 3/7/04
Second D-Day with total truth: 4/13/04
NC established: 4/14/04

My wife had about 7-8 months EA and 16 months PA (very intense, I saw the emails).

Honestly, I believe the romantic love bond becomes extremely tight after many sessions of satisfying sex. This is something you did not experiencer and yet you talk about a great deal of withdrawal and fog regarding your OM.

Are we (BHs) kidding ourselves when we assume wife will love us again? I am starting to have my doubts. I suspect that so-called marriages in recovery are simply telling themselves they are doing great, but deep inside they know IT WILL NEVER EVER BE THE SAME!

I guess I am disheartened despite the positive feedback I get from my wife. It does not matter how positive her actions are I still compare our situation to the old days and there is no comparison. I see a life where trust will never be the same and the romance will always be forced and not spontaneous anymore. If you ask me or my wife we will say everything is great, but in reality it is not the same as before for her or for me. Is this fair?

Stanley- it is still early days yet for you and Myrta.

I will tell you that I am MORE in love (and lust) with my H then I was before the A now.....
Give it some time.

I know you love her.

Stanley writes: Most FWWs say that in time they fall in love again with BH. However, I suspect others never regain those feelings for the BH.

I agree with you Stanley. Even when you read the Harley book Surviving the Affair, the exmaple he gives of the 1st affair, the Husband got the wife back ONLY AFTER she was herself dumped. Spin it any way you want, but he was NOT HER CHOICE, he was her consolation prize. I think many BS on here care so much for the marriage that in their mind, being a "second striger" is ok in their book as long as their WS comes back. I guess people do what they feel they need to do for the sake of their marriage. I am learning more and more each day. Some things just make you wonder.

SadFWW...I don't want to steal this thread but could you read mine from today? My wife is going crazy...and was thinking of spliting again. I don't know any FWW's but have gotten good advice from a friend who's WW came back 3 years ago...and things are great.

STANLET WRITES:
I guess I am disheartened despite the positive feedback I get from my wife. It does not matter how positive her actions are I still compare our situation to the old days and there is no comparison. I see a life where trust will never be the same and the romance will always be forced and not spontaneous anymore. If you ask me or my wife we will say everything is great, but in reality it is not the same as before for her or for me. Is this fair? Are we (BHs) kidding ourselves when we assume wife will love us again? I am starting to have my doubts. I suspect that so-called marriages in recovery are simply telling themselves they are doing great, but deep inside they know IT WILL NEVER EVER BE THE SAME!

Stanley:

I suspect you are correct on this point. If you really had people be truthful (to the core), many here would echo your sentiment. Some may say that things are better in the "recovered" marriage ........maybe so, but deep down inside people know and probably feel the same way you do. I think a big point of all of this is that for some (many actually), "second string" is OK. It beats not being on the team. Many on here are so committed to their spouses and marriage that this is OK for them COMPARED to a divorce or continued affair. If that is what makes them happy, then that is great. I tend to feel the way you do. I could never be a second string QB or "ride the bench", I want to be number one or nothing. You can call me egotistical or what have you but this is just the way I feel. Maybe I am not man enough, but I can't ever imagine doing what some betrayed spouses do on here in "comforting" the WS when they are in withdrawal, even to the point of holding them while they weep because they miss the OP. Maybe I need to grow and become like that (I don't know), but I don't think that it is me. Anyways, I forget are you a doctor? I thought someone posted that you were.

<small>[ October 24, 2004, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: lemonman ]</small>

LemonMan:

My wife posts here and she will read this; she knows how I feel about OM. Her OM was a loser in relationship to me (less educated, lack of ethics, history infidelity, uglier, shorter, fat, broke, ect, ect). His only positive attribute was---------- you guessed it---- smooth talk.

I cannot blame my wife for choosing me despite all the romantic words she wrote to the OM. She would have to be completely out of her mind to elope with an OM that is lower than whale-$hit in the bottom of the ocean. But---- that is no consolation. If her OM had been Hollywood material with a decent bank account and she had returned to me I would actually feel better.

Stanley:

LOL, I love the line about whale **** on the bottom of the ocean. I will have to remember that one. You obviously have alot of resentment in you over the WS relationship. I can so understand the ego hit you took in your WW being with such a low life sack of $hit. Maybe it is my dysfunctional personality, but when my WW betrayed me for a blue collar worker (construction) it almost seemed like a bigger hurt to me than if it had been with another doctor, etc. Yes, ofcourse I know that that belief is complete and utter BS (blue collar workers, please don't be offended, I am just posting what I felt) , but it WAS still the way I felt. I have since learned that tangible exteriors usually have very little to do with the betrayal.

I think it is very healthy for you to be able to post the things you do AND have your wife read them. I hope that you can get through all of this $hit and "truly" repair your marriage. I am for one rooting for you.

LemonMan:

I am a doc, but unlike you my hands have not been blessed by God---------- not a surgeon like you (sorry an old radio joke by The Grease Man). I am an internist and actually I picked a subspecialty that allowed me to spend a lot of time at home. My wife was NEVR a doc widow. I fact our marriage was probably a 9/10 at the onset of the affair. The main reasons for the affair were not really related to failure to fill Ens. IN fact, I had done a better job at that in the 2nd half of the marriage. When I was really bad in delivering Ens many years ago my wife DID NOT HAVE AN AFFAIR.

I will be honest at age 54 one has few choices. Women in my age group look like my mother and I don’t want to go for a young one as that could be a disaster. My wife is great in all other aspects and I actually LOVE her--------------- so I have to give this a try and hope that in 2-3 years I am not disappointed.

How old are you?

<small>[ October 24, 2004, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

I am 35, and was married for 7 years. I am a general surgeon with trauma experience. I actually try and be different than most general surgeons and actually try and know a lot of Internal Medicine. I am stubborn to that fact and I am often criticized for not calling in enough IM consultants in the SICU <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> .

If I was in your shoes, I would be doing what you are doing also and giving it a "shot" with your wife. I don't think you should be doing it because you are 54 years old and fear that you can't do better though. I would rather be alone than live like that. It sounds like this is a rocky time for you, BUT,,,,,your wife is being faithful, she is true to you and YOU have forgiven her........RIGHT????? If that is the case, you have to get through this with her, at least untill you don't think you can.

<small>[ October 24, 2004, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: lemonman ]</small>

LemonMan:

I have yet seen a WW in this board who betrayed the husband with a quality OM. If you go down the list you will find that time after time the OM is generally inferior to the BH.

Like in Harley's book----- in my case the affair was possible because I was such a good provider and my wife did not have to work and had an unlimited unmonitored check book. At times OM required financial help--------------- and you know who provided the funds. That is why he is a major loser with no ethics.

BTW, the OM was recently diagnosed with diabetes and is obese and sedentary. From what my wife tells me he does not do a good job treating the diabetes. With a little bit of luck OM will be completely impotent in 2-3 years. OM has all the risk factors------ diabetes and obesity the major ones. BTW, this kind of impotency responds poorly to Viagra----------- I am keeping my fingers crossed.

LEMONHEAD--Like I said before, I agree with you regarding people here. I think most of them, are saying half truths.
In regarding my affair, I should say that I chose my husband because he is the one. I chose my husband because he is a better man, I chose my husband because I LOVE HIM, I chose my husband because he is a better provider, I chose him, because he is the father of my kids,etc,etc.
But now he wants us to have a "story book romance" that we never had!!! Maybe we can have it someday, but as of right now, it is too soon. DD was 6-1-04, barely 5 mos.ago. I have lots of guilts and shame to be so romantically and receptive to him yet. He cannot understand this!!! He wants me to be 100% the wife of before already. Even though he has talked extensively to your good friend SadWW and she knows what goes on in WWs minds, he still wants me to behave differently. I was a Stepford Wife <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> before, but right now, I am not. He misses that, because I spoiled him. and he got too complacent in our relationship.
He loves to insult the OM, I dont care, he can do it if that makes him feel better. I think its rather inmature to be doing that so much. But hey, if that makes you guys feel better, do it!
All the insults are rather obvious, so it is kind of unnecessary to do so. My husband is better looking and more intelligent and makes more money, I guess the only thing lacking is the "smooth talk"
Myrta

BY THE WAY, I DID NOT PROVIDE ANY FUNDS TO THE OM. THATS SOMETHING MYHUSBAND LIKES TO BELIEVE.
BY THE WAY, I LOST MY WEDDING RING-DIAMOND SOLITARIE WITH BAND. MY HUSBAND THINKS I DID NOT LOSE IT, BUT THAT I SOLD IT TO REPAIR ALL THE THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS THAT I GAVE THE OM!!!
MY HUSBAND HAS A GREAT IMAGINATION!!!!

I LOST THE RING AND I CANNOT SLEEP THINKING WHERE COULD IT BE!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Myrta: YOur honesty is refreshing. I am 100% guilty of making fun of the OM, but I know that deep down inside that is my ego doing it to make me feel better. After all he played a role in ruining my marriage (albeit a minor one). Making fun of him as a no good loser is really just a rationlaization to make me feel better, and I know that. As for your story, would you mind giving me a brief synospis of what happened. I am not quite familair with your story. I am interested in knowing what happened.

Bob, interesting you should ask this today of all days.

Lemonman, with all due respect, I've been married 30 years and I can say for 27 of those years I was totally in love with my H.

I can only reiterate what Chackler and SadFww say. For me to even consider the remotest possibility of sex with anyone but my H I would have to have been in love. How on earth can you be in love with someone when you don't even know what they are like when they are not being romantic and charming. It's true I had a long history (5 years) with the OM before I was married but we were teenagers for Pete's sake.

Anyway, back to Bob, today H and I spent a romantic and wonderful day at the beach, kissing when we were out of sight of other people and generally behaving like people having an A. It was LOVELY and I felt nothing but romantic love for him.

And, Bob, it's taken a year to get to this and I can only see it getting better and better. I'll never forget someone here saying that being a sexy, in love, middle aged couple is wonderful and IT IS.

Jen

LemonMan:

35!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow! I am envious. You are in great shape! I would take 35 in a heartbeat. Of course at that age my kids were very little so it would have been quite difficult. AT age 54 one tends to be more forgiving and realistic. After all my wife was faithful for 29 years and she is a great wife. As to why she betrayed me like that I still think it had nothing to do with me and to be honest the main cause was her childhood (a lot of infidelity in the family). OTOH, I came from a family where infidelity was unheard off. IN the end I believe this is the major factor.

SO your wife doers not want a reconciliation? Or-- you don’t want her back?

It sounds like her worst punishment could be trying to have a marriage or a relationship with her OM. What do you think?

Oops- Myrta must be posting form the kitchen computer. She knows I love to say the stark truth about OM.