</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you so much for respecting this request.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BUT--------- IMHO this is related to Bob’s question.

He wants to know if WW can regain feelings of love for BH. This is what I would call a best-case scenario:

1. WW dumps OM on D-day
2. Starts NC right away
3. Admits guilt without trying to re-write the marital history
4. Affair was short (EA better than PA)
5. OM is a loser and WW has no problem admitting that
6. WW realizes that her love for OM was a mechanism of defense to justify her illicit relationship with OM
7. WW wants to make marriage work and actually does as much work as BH during recovery.
8. WW understands that BH is in the dark regarding a big chunk of their history together and freely talks to BH to explain what ever needs an explanation.
9. WW hides signs of withdrawal from BH
10. WW embraces radical honesty and tells BH about any attempt by OM to communicate.
11. WW decides to get emotionally close to BH to re-start feelings of romance.
12. WW gives plenty of affection to OM---- oops I mean BH (whether she feels like it or not).

I believe my wife scores real well in most of the above, so I am optimistic.

<small>[ October 25, 2004, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

Stanley - I think point no. 12 is wrong! That affection should be for the BH.

Bob - been meaning to ask for a while. What exactly is a "roue sport coach"? I know it's not relevant but not worth starting a new thread for. I'm English but not familiar with the term.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FNCJ thats more strong meat from you...

1. Knowing
I recall vividly how your words made me actualise the destruction of my dream of marriage....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, I understand what you mean here, and that in reality you made the choice to release your marriage illusion--I didn't "make" you do anything--still...I have to admit I feel sad thinking about this. Losing that naive, safe, special illusion is reality, but I feel sad that it's gone. I accept it, but it's bummy--ya know?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is no 'going back' to assumed, passive monogamy with implicit trust and little conscious effort made to be 'lovable'. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, I love the way you phrased this: "Passive monogamy...". It's wonderfully descriptive of the way that many entire into marriage as youngsters--passive in their efforts toward their relationship, passive in their efforts toward remaining loving or lovable, passive in their assumptions of absolute trust, passive in their assumptions of absolute fidelity. I think there's a small bit of a feeling of entitlement, and a small bit of a feeling of "it will be there when I'm not so busy and I can take the time and effort."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If my FWW truly does experience a 'road to damascus' enlightenment regarding what she did and the man she did it with, it will be hard for her but GOOD for us moving forward, whether together or apart. I pray it happens and soon.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep--exactly my point. Just as it was soul-searchingly hard for you to let go of your illusion and see REAL marriage from a mature viewpoint, it will be soul-searchingly hard to let go of the Affair Illusion and see the REAL affair for what it was. However, it could be VERY GOOD for you two moving forward!! I pray it happens soon too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">* May I ask BTW did this happen to your WH ? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You little monkey! You know it didn't. Trying to say this with as much kindness and compassion as I can muster, I do not believe it is possible for my WH to face himself or the mess he has made of his life. As you know, Bob, facing the loss of the denial is very painful and a difficult task when you are at your mental and spiritual best--it is darn near impossible when you're not mentally and spiritually "fit" for the job.

At this point, from what I can tell, my exH's life is a shambles but he still maintains the illusion of "being happy" and "being successful." However, reality bites. He is alone and no one but his cheap internet OW will have anything to do with him; no one is in his life who really cares about him or treats him with lovingkindness; business is failing fast; he's working himself literally to death; he's ignoring his mental illnesses and diabetes; and he has participated in a few ethically unscrupulous activities that are now catching up to him.

He refuses to "know" because he does not want to "know." He chooses the denial--it's easier. Mostly he has minor moments of the fog shifting enough so he can see a little; then the fog rolls in again and he's back to being happily blind.

On my side--realizing I am a BS--I have had my "knowing" moments. For me it was Thanksgiving 2002. My ex's birthday is around that holiday, and it was his 40th so I threw a BIG shabang at a very expensive, fancy restaurant. That whole week he was acting distant and reacting funny--something felt wrong--but I was busy with party plans and didn't pay attention. The night of the big party in his honor, he wanted to leave early "for some Me Time" which I found odd--but hey it was HIS birthday! Sure enough a few days later, the day after Thanksgiving, I found his love notes to his 13th and final A. At first I was STUNNED and paralyzed, and then I started to just cry...not so much because he had yet ANOTHER A, but because this time I "knew". I had sort of told myself after the last one (#12) that I just was not going to go through this ever again--it had to end--and I cried because I KNEW that I had to either honor my commitment to protect myself, or I was going to lose my ability to trust MYSELF. It was about me, and not about him at all.

I "knew" it was time to end it, and of course he got angry that I ended it...that I called it by name...that I put up with 12 but didn't put up with the 13th...that I insisted on fidelity. But do you see what I mean? "Knowing"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2) Don't measure your recovery based on certain events happening or not happening.

It is no grand gesture or 'shibboleth' in my opinion for her to throw these out. It is the most basic, decent act of contrition she should perform.
To keep them is to ask me to accept that the A is worthy of affectionate rememberence by both she and I.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay--as I mentioned this makes complete logical sense. Doesn't it make logical sense to you that if our vows were broken by infidelity, that we renew our vows as a ceremony of recommitment? It does "make sense"--and it makes sense that somehow destroying those love letters and OM things is a sign of letting it go and choosing you. I get it. I do!

BUT (there it is! that darn "but")... sometimes people get hung up on a CERTAIN event or thing happening as if that event is the sign of recovery. My exH did go through with the renewal of vows and did not mean one word of what he said. He was cheating again possibly within hours! So what was so deeply meaningful FOR ME, was not so meaningful for him.

Thus, I suggest that rather than saying to yourself or your FWW "FWW must destroy the love letters and CD or we will not be in recovery" that you two POJA something that is meaningful to you both. Dear brother, consider that when you effectively say that "FWW must..." statement, that in reality you are giving her a demand. Love ya, but that just isn't the MB way and doesn't lead to true recovery.

Here's what a respectful request would sound like:

"FWW, as you know it hurts me and does harm to me to have the love letters and CD in our home. This is both your home and my home, and I want it to be a safe loving place for BOTH of us, and that includes me. So I would like to request that we reach an agreement to move, remove, dispose of, or otherwise put those items in a place other than our haven. I lovingly request that (insert your idea of a burning ceremony here). I am willing to (insert what you are willing to do as an exchange here). Does this work for you, or do you have an idea of your own that WOULD work for you?"

A few brainstorm ideas:

Burning ceremony--go to a place that is sacred to her or deeply meaningful to you as a couple. Light the letters on fire and say, "As these letters burn and the smoke arises, we let go of past and release ourselves to move into our future together."

Burying ceremony--see above, but bury them.

Target practice at the shooting range. (devil horns protruding!)

Put them "into storage" at a storage locker or facility away from your home. IOW, lock them up.

Return them to the OM via certified mail.

Take them anywhere away from your home, dispose of them in any manner you like including just putting them in the trash--then GO HOME and do a cleansing of your home with some incense or candles.

For every love letter she burns, write her one from you to replace it.

For every CD she destroys, burn her one with "your songs" to replace it.

ONE UP the OM by being more smooshy than he was!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So I do not think it sis a line in the sand or a grand gesture, rather a basic act of decency of a contrite WS. It is not the letters, cellphone , CD etc but what they represent - her continued choice of him over me in her heart. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bear in mind that the letters, cell and CD represent that TO YOU. They may not represent that TO HER. It may be more like, "it was a terrible choice but it was part of what made me who I am today" to her. Sooo...you can change yourself, Bob. Have them represent something else or at least reprogram your own mind to have them represent whatever you like. For example, you could FRAME THEM and have them be a badge of courage that you and your wife can come through ANYTHING and still love each other and commit to each other. You could turn them into a positive if that is what you chose. Okay...it's weird and far out there, but you could do it!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is so important to me that I will say we cannot ever recover if she chooses to keep them over time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This really is sounding more and more like a demand to me. Your way or the highway, she has NO option to say "no, but this XYZ would work for me." Just give it some consideration and decide for yourself, Bob. I trust ya!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...recovery is important but my personal HEALING is also important...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am so glad you see this. Your FWW may be an injured party here and need you to meet her EN's etc., but you also need her to start stepping to the plate and meeting your needs. This is not being selfish, it is being mature and realistic. I guess I would encourage you to just expand your box a little--see if there are way that you could promote and actively pursue your own personal healing, rather than saying to yourself that you won't heal unless she does certain things. Does that make sense? You can choose to heal no matter HOW she acts! And it seems as if she's at least willing to participate...so let's use that willingness and your own wisdom to expand the options.

Well, I'm off to the salt mine again!! You'd think we'd hit salt eventually, wouldn't ya? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />


CJ

Wow-loads of activity.

Bob, you asked about romantic love. I am going to be 100 percent honest with you and I hope I won't receive 2x4's for this, it's just how I feel.

There are times where my husband takes my breath away. I look at him and I get all squishy inside. The feelings that I had for the OM though were so electric, so exhilerating. I haven't felt those feelings in years, I mean YEARS. So maybe that's why I am still struggling with withdrawal. Hubby and I are in counceling now and are working on all of that but I don't see those feelings coming back. The OM just new how to play me. I hope that one day I will have those feelings with my husband, but to be honest I don't see it, I don't.

As far as feeling if the OM is better than husband, I don't think he was. I mean status wise he was I guess. He has done a lot with his job and outside of work, much more than my husband. But here's the thing - my husband doesn't cheat. My husband is a man of character and respect, the OM wasn't. See, I'm not so foggy right now! I should enjoy this while it lasts!

You are such a good man Bob, you really are. I have been following your story here and I just can't get over the patience you have shown towards your FWW. You will be blessed for this, here on earth and in heaven.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by tummytuck:
<strong> Bob - been meaning to ask for a while. What exactly is a "roue sport coach"? I know it's not relevant but not worth starting a new thread for. I'm English but not familiar with the term. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TT a roue is a 'lecherous, disspated old man'.

Seemed more appropriate than "rat meat" (c) 2long <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

KY
Well this time, baby you are inspirational ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Bob, your W seems to excel at everything she does. I'm guessing she really did well justifying her A. I'm guessing she really seen you as a lousy H. Your Plan A is waking her up, she will shake off and erase the irrational justified scenerios, but the ones that are real, she will need to forgive you.

She really DOES excel at everything she does. No wonder she threw herself so totally into the affair. She must have blown OM away with her passion and skill at connivance.

My early conversations with OM informed me that FWW had told him I was a workaholic who didn't notice her anymore. I used this info to work on her admiration and affection EN requirements. This was a real one. It doesn't justify an Affair, but I bet it was the main one FWW used in her heart.

I held her and apologised for the shortcomings I recognised in myself some weeks ago. I begged her to forgive me for my part in making a sad marriage, and also that she should let me know of anything else I needed to do to meet ENs.
She smiled through tears and said: " I should be apologising to you!" and we sobbed and hugged for a long time.

I have repented totally of the stupid head games I played, trying to make FWW notice ME and other stupid STUPID stuff I did. She has told friends about my renewed contribution to her life , and the daft little things I do ( like the candle baths for example after karate, and getting up a little early to prapare the kids school lunches for example ( she HATES that ritual and I don;t mind so why ON EARTH havn't I always done it ? tsk !).
I can only assume that she has accepted my apology but if she has forgiven me? I don't know. She is still very closed but is behaving very lovingly most of the time.

She opened up today - we had a massive trigger arrive by post - and we talks and held and cried a lot. Whether she loves me or not she needs me right now - I held her like a baby as she sobbed out her sadness and shame today, kissing her hair.

Painful, but very insightful post KY, invaluable. Thanks darl' {{{{KY}}}}

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The OM just new how to play me. I hope that one day I will have those feelings with my husband, but to be honest I don't see it, I don't. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you telling this to your H. In my case I would want to know this. Are you willing to discuss this with your husband? Or are you afraid he may decide to leave if you tell?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As far as feeling if the OM is better than husband, I don't think he was. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is almost always the case. In fact I think WW thinks OM is great simply because OM is new meat------ that is all. The other factor is that OMs are cunning smooth talking men. As you said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The OM just new how to play me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is so typical! My wife’s OM could talk my wife into doing anything. He even convinced her they were not having an affair

<small>[ October 25, 2004, 10:56 AM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

chackler (and Bob, of course),

I think you bring up an EXCELLENT point. When spouses first meet, there is that breathless, butterfly feeling ("waiting to exhale") that is a cool mix of infatuation, chemistry, and caring. Over the years, jobs, kids, bills, mortgages and soccer intervene and the one who made you breathless still treats you lovingly, but more like a smoldering ember, not that breathless feeling. It's not as exciting.

Then OP comes along and kind of re-awakens that breathless, butterfly thing that you figured parents your age didn't feel anymore. And often a WS may stumble into thoughts like, "Maybe I'm not the one who's broken. Apparently I still have the ability to feel like this, so it must be my spouse who is a dud." heehee--kinda like that anyway!

I think though, chackler, that we are all adults here. I know there are parts of you that realize that the breathless feeling is partially infatuation--mixed with excitement and danger. Well, BS is not likely to feel very dangerous anytime soon because they are also tied to the memories of the kids, bills, mortgage.

And Bob...don't you think this is a portion of what is going on with you and your FWW?? You mentioned yourself that she turned 40yo, bought a sportscar, and had a "search of her youth" type experience. I'll bet you that part of her was looking for that breathless feeling...and you remind her of kids, bills, and mortgages! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> In a nice way of course.

So as adults facing reality, no, I do not think it's probable that the BS is going to be able to offer that breathless feeling to the WS. There's too much history and memories and responsibilities together. BUT...that is also the tie that binds them and makes what is really basically infatuation into actual, mature LOVE. The ties that bind. It's like super intense, caring affection for someone--mature love. It can have moments of breathlessness--but there are also moments of depth and smoldering that the breathless thing can not approach.

So WS may not have "breathless" romantic love return for their BS, but they will have something deeper and better--INTIMATE romantic love. Someone who knows them, knows all about them, sees them for who they are, and loves them anyway.


CJ

Oh, roue (with a French accent). Silly me, I thought it was a sports term I was unfamiliar with!

On a relevant note, Chackler just posted how her feelings for OM were electric, hadn't felt it for years. I'm sure all that adrenaline comes from the fact they are doing something illicit. If you'd been there saying to your wife, go on love, enjoy yourself, lay back baby, you can have sex with this OM, I don't mind etc, etc. Do you think she'd have felt anything like the sensations she did. BIG NO. It's all wrong and they know it so the thrill is bigger and better.

As for the love letters, even if you did write some of your own to replace the OM's, they won't have the same meaning. After all, you are 'good old Bob' and you'll always be there. I'm sure his letters will soon be gone but I wouldn't bother replacing them for at least a couple of years. I just don't think, at this moment in time, with all the fog, they would be regarded in the light they should be. Just my humble opinion. Good night from Asia, TT

FNCJ

All good stuff. I wasn't TRYING to be a monkey asking about your WH, I just wondered if he had that revelation but STILL chose to abandon his M. Sorry , no intention to trigger <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I see how my words appear to make a demand upon my FWW regarding the destruction of the letter sand stuff. I could be fooling myself CJ, but I believe that to be MY boundary not a demand upon my FWW.

She can retain or remove those triggers as she wants, but I cannot progress healing while they remain cherished in my house. I know this, I am verbalising what I know ,NOT trying to apply a demand to my FWW.

I have no desire to manacle my FWW to me. I do want her to love/respect me enough to want to prioritise MY healing over her caprice. She knows that those letters kill me and that by destroying them with me she would make me very very happy. that she chooses not to says a lot IMO.

It is MY boundary not a demand on my FWW unless, s I say, I am fooling myself.

We had a very emotional discussion this afternoon after a painful trigger arrived through the mail. She answered one of my most needed questions (I hope honestly) and regarding the letters she said " how do you know I haven't already destroyed them?"
I replied " I don't, have you?".

She said "you wouldn't believe me if I told you I had so I'm not going to say anything".

I didn't press it. So I still don't know when she will destroy them.

I am still trying to deconstruct some of the information I gained from FWW today. I may postup somecomclusion slater. It was very very personal though so maybe not. I wish I could trust her, but her every word was a lie to me for three months.... And she's admitted that one reason she lied was to try to minimise my hurt. I've explained how misguided this is but I suspect she still adheres to that.

Thanks CJ I'll read up more and maybe post up later more response. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

fncj
And Bob...don't you think this is a portion of what is going on with you and your FWW?? You mentioned yourself that she turned 40yo, bought a sportscar, and had a "search of her youth" type experience. I'll bet you that part of her was looking for that breathless feeling...and you remind her of kids, bills, and mortgages! In a nice way of course.


Absolutely. FWW has all but told me the A was just the ultimate mid life crisis activity. She HATES being 40, getting old, being boring. She's been out on the lash until the small hours with girlfriends many times, been buying chart music, dressing more like Avril Lavigne than Julia Roberts etc etc. And she openly states to me she hates being 40.And yes, I guess I am a boring Bob.

Boring Bob who has always adored her, encouraged her, motivated her, supported her and loved her is too associated with workaday stuff to be exciting anymore. She has gotten used to the love and support she gets from me. Takes me for granted IMO.

* sigh* I can fix all kinds of stuff about me but I can;t be a tall, dark , handsome stranger to her I'm afraid. We know each other too well.

Bob, I've only read bits and pieces of this thread. I have always wondered if H and I can reclaim what we had after him being in-love and experiencing in-love sex with OW. I'm getting a bit better at letting those thoughts go, just because I know what they had was such crap.

Something struck me in what you said about your W hating turning 40. Truthfully I've never understood people getting bummed out about getting older. I've actually liked each decade much better than the previous one. This 40s decade has been rough with sickness, dying parents and other deaths, and of course the lovely experience of an A. However, for some odd reason I still like and feel better about me than I ever did in my 20s or 30s. I guess what I'm saying is that at some point your W will need to figure out why the # 40 is a problem. I guess anyone in a MLC has to figure the big questions out. CV

CV I agree with you. I miss some of the vigour of my youth, but I'm smarter now and more reflective.

And thanks to the infidelity diet and the Gimble gym progaam I'm kinda buff for a fortysomething businessman and Dad too !

I enjoyed every decade, and had every hope of enjoying my forties better than any. I can't understand why my FWW hates being forty so much. She and I fitted so much living into our twenties and thirties we couldn't possibly be any younger than forty now (I know that sounds stupid, but I mean it!).

Maybe she can tell me why. She's just dyed her hair to cover the few silver threads in there. SO sad she can't love herself as a vital, beautiful, fascinating 40 year old woman as I do and so many other folks do.

Bob

I know you & Aussie post when he is on the board but he is totally focused on his troop at the moment in case they are deployed, its mission, mission, mission right now and I’m second and not minding at all. ANYTHING that will let him come home safe & sound is ok with me!!
Three Aust were injured today so it goes on. He said to say ‘G’day’ & he will be back as things settle a bit….. I hope.

Now to your question Bob, I’ll take a swing at it.
As far as I am concerned, I did not have any ‘romantic’ love for the OM in the first place, it was more attraction, peer support and well I LIKED him. It just went too far.
The whole A was to me so separate from the M that it was like living a totally different life at the same time. So do I think I can recover the romantic feelings fully for my H, darn right I do.
Perhaps the next question should be can a BS recover their romantic love for the FWW …..Mmm tell me when we get there because I’m lost on that one.
Love YES, same as before the A, I just don’t know for him. I don’t get ILY’s but I make sure to tell him that over and over.
Maybe that’s usual for where we are. If you have a map of that pls send it.

In a way its better he doesn’t lie because then I wouldn’t know how much I had to fight for him, I hope that’s a plus, I pray it’s a plus.
I want it I can tell you that. I don’t think it will be the ‘same’ as before. We will have to make it whatever we can in the new light of day. Daunting yes, impossible no.

When? Timetable? I have no idea. Each couple I think are different.
You take one day at a time, the good and the bad. Its not unhappy, just not what we had.

P.S. Aussie thinks 'rat meat' is far more appropriate <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
I just wish he'd get off the subject for a little while at 'inappropriate moments' for goodness sakes!!! HINT Bob..it drives us crazy .

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> posted October 25, 2004 10:28 AM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
chackler (and Bob, of course),
I think you bring up an EXCELLENT point. When spouses first meet, there is that breathless, butterfly feeling ("waiting to exhale") that is a cool mix of infatuation, chemistry, and caring. Over the years, jobs, kids, bills, mortgages and soccer intervene and the one who made you breathless still treats you lovingly, but more like a smoldering ember, not that breathless feeling. It's not as exciting. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah-- new meat is more exciting than old meat. The thing is------ many of us faithful men would love to experience the new meat as well, however we don’t go for it. I guess God knows what he is doing. If I fell in love like my WW did with OM I would be a goner. I look at this scenario over and over again and I cannot comprehend why many WWs come back to the BH. As a man maybe I am wired differently, but I just cannot imagine going back to the old meat. Therefore, it is easy to see why there is some apprehension with the concept of WW falling in love again with BH. Sure, we can talk about the so-called love that is a conscious action based on a long-term history. But, I would not want to stay in the marriage if I had a greater desire for another woman. We keep saying that WWs felt something else other than lust/love------- Hmm----- if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, it must be a duck. I think WWs were in deep love and coming back to the old meat is no piece of cake.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then OP comes along and kind of re-awakens that breathless, butterfly thing that you figured parents your age didn't feel anymore. And often a WS may stumble into thoughts like, "Maybe I'm not the one who's broken. Apparently I still have the ability to feel like this, so it must be my spouse who is a dud." heehee--kinda like that anyway!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Another interesting side note is that the affair re-awakens that breathless, butterfly thing in many BHs for the WW. I have read about BWs who experience the same awakening.

My wife’s affair re-awakened my lust for her and it is no different than at the beginning. Does that mean she could also have the sane awakening if I had an affair?

<small>[ October 25, 2004, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

by Stanley </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are we (BHs) kidding ourselves when we assume wife will love us again? I am starting to have my doubts. I suspect that so-called marriages in recovery are simply telling themselves they are doing great, but deep inside they know IT WILL NEVER EVER BE THE SAME!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your right, our M will never be the same. It is all ready so much better. Yes, there is lots of pain, but so much more honesty, so much more quality time, and respect, adoration, love and appreciation. I think it depends on the people and the feelings, the pre-A state of the M. You can not generalize recovery.

BP said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The recovery from the A made both spouses skilled in filling each others love banks and so 'love' is restored as well as the 'mature' love married folks can enjoy. I guess this is why it is said that recovered marriages can be better than ever !
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See that Stanley. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
This is right on!!!!!!!!!

by Gimble </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Any claim to good coming from an affair in the form of marital improvements is to deny the truth that the marriage could have been improved much more effectively BEFORE the affair. Anything after is simply an attempt at repair.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gimble I agree. Give me an exam, I will not study, I will do all right. Now give me the material, I will study, I will do so much better than before. Life is live and learn. I'm learning from my mistake.

YES!!! I could have done this before, but I didn't. I didn't realize my M was in trouble, until PA began. I would have loved to have improved my M, instead I chose an A, now I will repair it, and it will/it is better. We were married, but never knew anything about being M. We now know what to do to remain happy, we have educated ourselves in MB and other books and areas. I failed my M, my H, he very lovingly forgave me, and we are rebuilding a M that is real, not one that just goes through the motions of a married life. We are damaged, but we are choosing to work through it and heal.

Bob, How about a POJA with the love notes. Ask her to let you know when she throws them out, all of them. Tell her again what having them around does to you, or haven't you specifically? Then you do your best, to forget about them, until that beautiful day when she tells you, they are all gone. I love the idea somebody gave you about writing some yourself to replace them. I wonder if she has gotten rid of them, and if she has, why she chooses to keep you wondering????

AWife, love the Q,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Perhaps the next question should be can a BS recover their romantic love for the FWW </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob Pure you are always a pleasure, and sometimes humerous. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

{{{Bob Pure}}}
Lots of MB Love, KY

We keep saying that WWs felt something else other than lust/love------- Hmm----- if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, it must be a duck. I think WWs were in deep love and coming back to the old meat is no piece of cake.

According to SAA Torn Asunder and Not Just Friends, WS ARE in love - very strongly so in many cases - but with the illusion of the OP created by the affair NOT the reality of the OP.

OPs have the luxury of only ever being charming and attractive before a highly receptive WS. WS 'loves' that image not the fact of them.

My FWWs OM is a practiced flatterer (his GF told me)I have no doubts my FWW was smitten by the view she got of him.

We'll see if FWW comes to realise that by herself over time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bob Pure:
<strong> According to SAA Torn Asunder and Not Just Friends, WS ARE in love - very strongly so in many cases - but with the illusion of the OP created by the affair NOT the reality of the OP.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob- I can only tell you that I was NOT in love with the OM...I thought I was at the time- but it wasn't *real* love, just lust. I suppose it all depends on how you define love- but I do strongly feel that what I felt wasn't *love* when I reflect back on that time in my life.

sadFWW my head is spinning today. Busy from work, some hugely draining but productive talks with my FWW and plenty of debate on this thread. I need a glass of wine and a sit down ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I noted your view previously that you do not recognise what you felt as 'love'. I suspect less mature or examining people than you might just call that frisson 'love' and be done with it.

One day I hope my FWW will tell me how she felt. Then I hope it will no longer be important to us soon after as we are so happy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />