</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong> SW:

Your point is well taken. My wife Myrta was not happy about those comments either. However, they reflect my frustration relatively well. I want to apologize to you as well if you were offended. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope- no need to apologize. I know that I'm not always going to be popular here considering what side of the A I was on.

Bob:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think its fair to say that OMs talk like you did when you first met Myrta. It is very flattering to be considered fascinating, beautiful and to be patiently and totally 'heard'. For many folks that fills LBs to overflowing as thats just the sort of thing that we husbands don't do as much over the years of familiarity. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob, I was 17 years old------- I was very far away from OM lingo. As you can see------ I am still far away and whenever I say something I fall deeper into the hole.

I never courted my wife as an adult. I was already married to her by age 22 and certainly was still a kid at that age. She has been my only sex partner and she is perfect for me. I don't need anyone else, but I cannot say the right words to find romance. It used to be so easy in the past--- now I am unable to say the right things. If I try I seem to be too intense; it is awkward and I don't feel relaxed. I don't think Myrta is relaxed either and hence she feels unreceptive. I think we need time to fly by---- five months is not enough. Maybe in two years--------- They say it takes two years.

I would gladly accept any suggestions by you or any other FWWs.

Hi Stanley! Please don't be apologetic, we all understand this is a "mindbending' sort of site. I hope you don't feel set upon. You are being asked to see things in a whole new light...things that you never thought you'd need to think about. Hopefully the new things you learn will take root in your mind and heart and help smooth out the recovery path. I should tell you that almost without exception I do not post to people when I am not familiar with their history but in your case, my time is short and your threads are loooooong so I have to reply without background. Sorry in advance if I bring anything up that you have already answered to.

Originally posted by Stanley568:

Thanks for your reply.
BTW, my reply is full of 2x4s, please do not take them personally, I am venting. I am also grateful you took the time to write to me---- it shows you are a caring person!

I actually liked your thoughts Stanley, they are from your heart and totally understandable given where you are at right now. However, we are what we think so let's see if we can change some of that pessimism. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


As a man I need to talk about these things. There is a strong need to understand why. It may be academic to you, but I have a piece of marital history that is completely dark. There are many things that I cannot understand. I am not a woman and I am basically a faithful guy. BTW, I am faithful because of my superego, it has northing to do with loving or not loving my wife.
OK, so I still have some resentment---------- but how do I get rid of it if I am not allowed to speak my mind? I truly want to stay married and I adore my wife, but if I have resentment it simply means I need to talk to someone about it until it is all gone.

Stanley, they are not academic per se, but they are basically academic to YOU in terms of the big picture. Yes, there is a portion of your wife's life that is not known to you...it most likely was not known to her either. She's probably alot like me, being married to a high profile professional means being a master juggler, always at the ready for the responsiblities that come with the career choices our spouses have made. Add a busy family and social and church obligations and you can see how a woman can get get buried. I get tired just thinking about it all actually.

It was a lightbulb moment when the OM asked me what I did for ME, to make myself happy. I didn't have an answer. Somehow all the kid stuff, decorating, shopping and organizing events and luncheons didn't seem all that fulfilling when I really stopped to think about it. It took someone actually asking me that question to make me realize that life had revolved around everyone but me. I didn't even know what fun was anymore and unfortunately I made a decision to pursue "fun" in a destructive way.I don't know if your wife can relate to this in any way but reasons for As are not always clear cut in the begining even to those of us who have crossed the line.

I never heard anyone say it was way better to be betrayed than wayward. IMHO, it can only be worse if the wayward spouse has to give up ultimate true love with the OM for a boring marriage with the BH.

No I never did until MB either but it makes sense, not that it's a contest or anything. Your scenario would be worse but by applying the concepts on this site,(so many which have to do with respect, attention and care) it's hard to imagine a BH being "boring" even if they initialy were. The best part about MB for me is watching people grow as individuals as they reach for recovery of the marriage.

However, all of you have said over and over again that love for the OM was phony--------- gee how hard can it be to give that up. Not only that------ most WWs have admitted that OM was the lesser man in most instances when compared to the BH. How hard must it be to leave such a gem of OM behind.

I think that this forum is probably prettily heavily skewed with FWWs who got involved with "loser" OMs. Those who are not losers have a greater chance of getting the WW out of the marriage hence the higher percentage of high achieving women (or their BHs) with loser OMs posting here. There was a book written on the subject, can't remember the title.

As for working with the BH.
Pallez, it is not rocket science!

1. Simply show affection.

I can only explain this as I experienced it. BSs have their own version of fog and my H was no exception. I never knew what to expect from him....he said one thing one day and another the next. It was always something it seemed. His body language was different, not anything I was familiar with. I'm wondering now whether that was why the SF was so important, he couldn't "fake it" in that department. He was REAL at those times, more the man I fell in love with. The fogged out guy I didn't know at all and was not inclined to move towards him in affection, it was just too wierd. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

2. Go into NC and actually do it

Yep, non negotiable.

3. Allow BH to vent against the OM. For God's sake BH has NO ONE else to vent against.

Not a good idea. It is an indirect slam on the FWW for making such a poor choice. Better to rise above the urge. My H was pretty good here, he KNEW he was the better man (DUH) and didn't need to expound on it. He earned my respect with that one, after all some things are just obvious.

4. Do not rewrite marital history in such a way as to show that everything we did was a poor attempt to fill ENs. These affairs can also occur in very good marriages.

Yes, scary isn't it? It's all the more reason for us to be close to our spouses to ensure that our attempts are attempts that matter to our spouses, and not our misguided perception of what they want. I've been guilty here a few times, ugh.

5. Don't apologize, I don't need that, but please do not blame the victim. Sure, there were some ENs that were vacant, but did it occur to you that the BH had plenty of vacancies as well and never considered an affair?

Why NOT apologize? I think it is an important step for the WS and must be HEARTFELT. As far as blame, there are some who have seized on the idea of unfulfilled ENs as a sanctioned excuse for the affair but I don't know that your wife is one of them. (?) If there were ENS that were neglected through ignorance on both of your parts, well then, get to work! You both know better now, there is no point in trying to take credit for what you did or didn't do vs the other party. One of those academic points I was refering to.

6. Be willing to talk. You are in a safe place. The BH wants to stay married, why make it so hard for the BH?

Some WSS don't talk b/c they are not ready or b/c they do not feel safe to share with thier betrayed spouse for different reasons. Let's say you decide to see a therapist but when you begin to reveal yourself you begin to realize he is uncomfortable with what you are saying. As he escalates into a more defensive or angry posture, you shut down or become angry yourself.
You would most likely not see or open up to the therapist again. Some conversations are going to be neccesarily HARD but they also don't need to happen all at once. Some are actually better had when emotions are not so close to the surface. Only you will know when you can handle certain topics with composure and grace.


I bet you a case of Coca Cola that on the average BHs lose more weight and sleep less than WWs.

Probably but conversely many WS lose the weight and sleep after DD. It's not a contest as to who is suffering more! It's supposed to be a rebuilding and recovery effort, remember? Pointing this out is an example of focusing on the wrong things and hampers more productive recovery attempts.

My wife perceives that i have not fully forgiven her. I didn't realize that until today when I noted that any resentment means that I have not forgiven her. I thought that if I wanted to stay in the marriage and tried to improve our relationship it meant forgiveness.

Stanley, you didn't KNOW that before but now that you do understand that it is not enough just to stay married and improve things, but you've seen the tools here so...GO FOR IT. Using the four rules for a successful marriage will draw you closer together and the resentments will begin to melt. Set a goal in your mind to work out your forgiveness step by step, in a way that your wife can "feel" your genuineness.

My goodness, I had to pick up the kids as of 5 minutes ago!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Hang in Stanley...KB

My FWW has laid on my chest, her leg and arms folded aroun dme all evening. She kissing my hand and squeezing me every so often.

Yet she won't say "I love you" again.

She desires to make love with me almost all the time it seems, and does so passionately: yet won't say 'ILY'.

She infers all the time that she loves me, but won't say 'ILY'. Its as though she CAN'T say 'ILY'.

I wonder why this is? I won't ask her because it might make her say it robotically which I do not want.
It does make me feel a bit insecure but TBH she could hardly BE more loving in action AND words other than saying "ILY".

Strange days. I hope she will feel able to communicate more with me some time soon.

Maybe JUST maybe we will get over this after all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was a lightbulb moment when the OM asked me what I did for ME, to make myself happy. I didn't have an answer. Somehow all the kid stuff, decorating, shopping and organizing events and luncheons didn't seem all that fulfilling when I really stopped to think about it. It took someone actually asking me that question to make me realize that life had revolved around everyone but me. I didn't even know what fun was anymore and unfortunately I made a decision to pursue "fun" in a destructive way. I don't know if your wife can relate to this in any way but reasons for As are not always clear cut in the beginning even to those of us who have crossed the line. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wife said the affair was a lot of fun. An adventure and a chance to be young again. She flew to far away places on her own to stay in hotels and meet OM in exotic places (it was long distance). Yes, it was a great life--------- a fantasy (made possible by yours truly). That is why no H can ever compete with this fantasy--- we are reality.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that this forum is probably prettily heavily skewed with FWWs who got involved with "loser" OMs. Those who are not losers have a greater chance of getting the WW out of the marriage hence the higher percentage of high achieving women (or their BHs) with loser OMs posting here. There was a book written on the subject, can't remember the title. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Has to be---- one would think there are plenty of women married to losers who are looking for something better----- the so-called exit affairs. I guess those folks don’t post here. However, those OMs will be looking for greener pastures once they hook up with the new former WW.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can only explain this as I experienced it. BSs have their own version of fog and my H was no exception. I never knew what to expect from him....he said one thing one day and another the next. It was always something it seemed. His body language was different, not anything I was familiar with. I'm wondering now whether that was why the SF was so important, he couldn't "fake it" in that department. He was REAL at those times, more the man I fell in love with. The fogged out guy I didn't know at all and was not inclined to move towards him in affection, it was just too weird. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

At the onset I was foggy, no doubt. I could not eat or sleep. I had crying episodes and wanted sex constantly ( I still do, but a tad less). SF does wonders for me and makes me function normal for at least 24-36 hours. Beyond that point I get cranky again no matter how hard I try to be normal.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why NOT apologize? I think it is an important step for the WS and must be HEARTFELT. As far as blame, there are some who have seized on the idea of unfulfilled ENs as a sanctioned excuse for the affair but I don't know that your wife is one of them. (?) If there were ENS that were neglected through ignorance on both of your parts, well then, get to work! You both know better now, there is no point in trying to take credit for what you did or didn't do vs the other party. One of those academic points I was referring to.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I don’t have an issue with my ENs. There are some that could be better, but I tend to accept life as it is. I have never been a demanding person. However, I must say my wife does an exceptional job all of the time. Even during the affair she would do nice things for me. The only negative I noted was her lack of interest in having sex with me. I remember I asked her many times about it and she told me things were changing in her body. Since I am in my early 50s I accept this and adapted as best as I could.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Some WSS don't talk b/c they are not ready or b/c they do not feel safe to share with their betrayed spouse for different reasons.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Her talking comes in spurts, but I believe she misunderstands me when I say I want to talk. She always think I want sexual details of the affair and this is far from the truth at this stage of the ball game. The affair went on for two years so I don’t need the details of every encounter over such a long period of time. Heck- who could remember that. What I want are special circumstances that impacted my life. I also need to know what is inside her head so I know what to expect. D-day was almost five months ago, but she had contact with OM for about four months. If I understand MB correctly she musty be in withdrawal. I think that would be important for me to know. I also want to know the side of her that I don’t know.

<small>[ October 26, 2004, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She desires to make love with me almost all the time

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob-------------- yo the man!

Please post what you are doing. I am envious!

No idea stanley ! I initially thought it was guilt but she * ahem * is so obviously enjoying of it she wants SF alright.

Now I SUSPECT with snippets of information my FWW let out in the fog AND what OM told his GF ( and she told me) OM wasn't only much smaller than me in stature * ahem*. He was also very, er, 'eager'.

Maybe as this was the only sex my FWW has ever had with anyone other than me she is realizing what she had with me. Mebbe cr@p sex with him has awakened her appreciation of me, coupled with my new 45 lbs slimmer , buffer body , new wardrobe and restored "listening" personality. This isn't a 'new' me, just a return to the 'me' she married.

I dunno. She can't get enough of me right now. Its very nice to be appreciated ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hello Bob. I am a FWW & I can attest that your FWW can regain all of her loving feelings for you, & be ready to express those feelings both in actions & words...but it may take more time & also more communication. Your FWW must be willing to open up to you & talk about the A, & you have to be a safe person for her to talk to about it. I regained my love for my BH after years without really loving him. I had lost most feelings of love for him after years of his emotional/verbal abuse, which caused me to be withdrawn from him & secretive about my feelings. During the A I never thought I could learn to love my BH the way I loved the OM--but I now love my BH more than ever & am happily expressing that verbally & in every other way I can find to show him my love. I could not have redeveloped my love for him just by ending contact with the OM. That just left me feeling void of love & desperate to learn to love my BH again. It was the change in my BH that restored my love again. After the A, he learned through counseling how to be a safe person to talk to (not abusive),& that allowed me to open up to him & share my heart. He began to really listen & understand me & to meet my emotional needs. That is how our love grew to where I could honestly say ILY to him with all my heart. Your FWW must be willing to share her heart with you--to talk about the A as much as she can (& as much as you want to hear). And you in turn have to be safe for her to talk to. Being heard & understood & loved despite our terrible mistakes is a great gift that a BH can give to a FWW. It has been 3+ months since my A ended. My love for my BH & our marriage are almost better now than in the beginning of our marriage. We now understand not to take love for granted & how fragile love can be. Now I view our love as something so precious, I won't do anything to jeopardize it. There is hope for you & your FWW. I know 6 weeks seems like a long time, but it's not. By 6 weeks I was just beginning to recover some feelings of love, & I asked friends to pray for me to really love him again. I wanted to love him & I was impatient at the progress of my own heart. But by working hard on our marriage & open communication, I regained my love in a huge way. It really took about 2+ months to feel like I was deeply in love with my BH again. I just wanted to try to encourage you to hang in there. I'll pray for your FWW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Anne Ivy

Bob:

I was only about 15-16 lbs overweight so losing to my normal fighting weight has not impacted the system that much.

If your wife did not have SF with OM you are a very lucky man. I think that makes a huge difference.

What do you mean by this Bob:

OM wasn't only much smaller than me in stature * ahem*.

Is that important? Or is this an ego booster (for the BH)?

Did you play hard to get? Maybe i should try that!

Anne:

My D-day was almost 5 months ago, however wife kept sporadic contact with OM for at least four months. Do you think that has impacted her recovery? I have also LBd her out of frustration, but I was never abusive or controlling. I have an extreme type B personality-- very non-anal. Still looking for advice on how to treat wife.

Oops didn't see this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think both you and her will be disappointed if you think that a forgiveness so early in recovery is a once only decision. It is a long battle. So fight that battle each day!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Frank, that is very helpful. I was disappointed with myself and so was my wife.

Sorry for more HJ Bob!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong> Bob:

I was only about 15-16 lbs overweight so losing to my normal fighting weight has not impacted the system that much.

If your wife did not have SF with OM you are a very lucky man. I think that makes a huge difference.

What do you mean by this Bob:

OM wasn't only much smaller than me in stature * ahem*.

Is that important? Or is this an ego booster (for the BH)?

Did you play hard to get? Maybe i should try that! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stanley

My FWW certainly DID have SF with OM else she wouldn't have done it again. I suspect is was an emotional sex high rather than physical though.

OM GF relates OMs story to her about the affair that he never performed well owing to nerves during the A, and this is brone out my some things my FWW said when trying to be spiteful to me during the fog. ( she could've bitten off her tongue when she realised what she'd told me and her spite had backfired so i believe it was a truthful Freudian Slip!)

In summary lets just say his 5'5" frame is 'to scale' most everywhere AND he couldn't keep busy what he HAD got and this is a trait borne out ny his GF who loves him.

Yes its an ego booster but teh main reson I offered that info was as a reason why my FWWmight be so very frisky now. I do not and have rarely suffered from the problems of , erm, 'smallness' or performance anxiety.

Is it important ? Not even slightly - even if OM was a Stud Muffin in the sack, my FWW is still highly appreciative of my efforts and chose MY bed not his to stay in. I win. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I didn't even WANT SF for weeks, neither did FWW while she was fogged out and withdrawing painfully. FWW instigated a couple of mechanical but needful SF sessions over the weeks but the breakthrough came a month or so ago when FWW basically seduced me at a pub near our holidayhome in Wales - she pushed me against a wall and kissed me so my heart stopped. We continued later and after the kids were in bed she had her way with me MAGNIFICENTLY. We have made love very passionately almost as often as possible since then, all instigated my my FWW.

She behaves like she loves me, and finds me very sexually attractive. I wonder why she can't say 'ILY' ? I might ask her today if I get the opportunity. Actually I might not. I may not want to hear the answer.

Gigantor,

In replying to Stanley, you wrote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> In summary lets just say his 5'5" frame is 'to scale' ...Yes its an ego booster but teh main reson I offered that info was as a reason why my FWW might be so very frisky now. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I realize that I can not speak for all female-kind here, but speaking for myself, I can say that "size" is not the determining factor for when or why I ever feel "frisky." I will share with the forum here that I have not been with many, many men--I could count my sexual partners on one hand, and I've only had ONE marriage! But, in the end, when I have felt or acted frisky, I can honestly say that the last thought on my mind is: "How big is this guy??" heehee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

The kinds of things that DO get me frisky much more have to do with how I feel about myself when I'm with the fella...is he considerate of me and my *ahem* enjoyment...is there an emotional connection...does this man meet my EN's (Honesty, Admiration, Conversation)...is there mutual respect...does the way he treats me create an attractive man? Oh, there is the very rare, occasional super-attractive person, but that person is attractive only on a very superficial, physical level...but if there is attractiveness on a physical, emotional, mental, spiritual level--THEN there is friskiness and the friskiness is acted upon!!!

Bob, I believe it is conceivable that your FWW is merely going for you because you are "well built" but I think you are selling yourself far short. No pun intended. For your sake, I am thankful that God has seen fit to equip you with both the sword and ability to wield that baby--that's a gift--and yet I'm trying to fill you in on a chick secret here: it's not the size of the weapon that melts our hearts...it's the heroic white knight BEHIND the sword that wins our hearts and earns our frisky advances. And don't forget, there are plenty of loving, close, intimate marriages in which the H has no sword...or can not use his sword...and they are still madly in love and deeply committed.

If your FWW is frisky, it may be to enjoy you physically, but much more likely is to express in a physical way how close she feels to you in an emotional way.

Also, especially with your FWW, it may be that she is trying to re-spark in you some of the fun-ness of youth...when you guys were young and in-love having hot monkey sex all over the house! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> At one point in her life, I believe she saw you about as exciting as a CPA with a beige sedan, and now she is trying to re-kindle a bit of that passion, danger, fun, and sizzle...and lo and behold, not only is it still there inside HER but you seem to have a bit too!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>She behaves like she loves me, and finds me very sexually attractive. I wonder why she can't say 'ILY' ? I might ask her today if I get the opportunity. Actually I might not. I may not want to hear the answer. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'll take a crack at this one too. I do not say "I love you" very readily. I tell my kids every time I speak to them "ILY" because I do love them. I have one or two very close friends to whom I will say "ILY" because they are so near and dear to me that sometimes just being with them makes me teary-eyed. I love 'em!! But with men...I do not say "I love you" readily. I only say it when I MEAN it, and I'm not sure I trust myself to tell if it's lust, love, caring, friendship, closeness, or who knows what! I'm not throwing those words around to just anyone, and even though I say it every day to my kids, I mean it every time I say "I love you." When I love someone, it MEANS something big and important.

I can not speak for your FWW, but there may be a part of her that remembers saying "ILY" to the OM and is now thinking, "Boy! I gave that away mighty easily! Maybe I can't tell when I am in love! Am I in-love? Gee I don't feel breathless, maybe I'm not. I better not say it yet. How am I supposed to know what is love and what isn't?? Forget it. I just won't say it until I'm sure."

See what I mean?


CJ

*blush*

Of ALL the people who could read that post it hadta be YOU didn't it CJ ? ! * blush *

I'll never get over it now !! * blush *

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I only mention the , erm, physical issue to Stanley because my FWW has mentioned that a couple of times since we resumed SF and she never did before. I guess she had to travel to relalize theres no place like home.

If your FWW is frisky, it may be to enjoy you physically, but much more likely is to express in a physical way how close she feels to you in an emotional way.

DEAR GOD I pray thats true. I must say it FEELS that way. We haven't MADE LOVE as passionately or as needfully in years. Not regularly anyway. Deep kissing....unbroken eye contact...wow !

FWW hasn't instigated needful SF for ages yet she does most days now. I mean she had a sport rib injury last night and STILL insisted...erm...anyway the deliberate extra gentleness required was kinda thrilling for both of us. * ahem *

I LONG to believe its loving SF but I'm sort of scared to assume that.

Regarding "ILY" CJ I agree that your reasoning is quite possible. i can thunk of a dozen reasons why she will say everything BUT 'ILY'.

Some are very hurtful. In the absence of explanation from FWW I just try not to think about it much.

I hope to hear ILY more soon though. Heard it twice since d-day. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

OF COURSE IT WAS ME! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Who else is up this time of day/night?? In case you were wondering, it's 1:45am here in the Rocky Mountains, and being the vampiress that I am, I'm still up worshipping the moon and other latenight creeping.

Heehee--Halloween humor!

Bob, bear in mind that whatever you write on here is read by several hundred people at least. That's why not only are there certain rules about impropriety etc., there are also certain etiquette behaviors regarding discussions of "what occurred" "what color was it" and "who was nude" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> We have hundreds of anonymous readers and need it to be a G-Rated show here!

Anyway, don't blush. We are adults here and have all at one time or another been in a stimulating situation with another adult. Regarding this size thing (and then let's agree to put it to rest) I had one partner whom I knew very, very well who may not have been much to look at but who knew how to handle his God-given gifts with skill...and another was magnificent to look at but was quick on the trigger and couldn't do a thing with it! So I'm telling ya, it's more than likely--actually, yeah, it is PROBABLY that you have skills making her feel attractive, young, desireable, and hot. In the heat of the moment, people often make a comment about "Wow, that's impressive" and what is meant is "Wow, I sure feel awesome when you do that!"

Regarding "I love you's", have you considered using a WTFS approach?? That stands for:
(W)hen you______
I (T)hink_______
I (F)eel________
(S)o____________
It might sound something like this: "When you don't say 'I love you' every now and then, I think and worry my way to the worst, I feel a little afraid, and so I'm going to ask if you would say it now and then if you can, just to reassure me." -OR- "When you don't say 'I love you' I think maybe you don't feel it, I feel lonely and isolated from you, so I'm going to ask if there's a reason why you are not saying it."

I don't mean this mean, but if she were to explain to you that she's kinda confused about what love is, so she's waiting to say it until she figures it out--it might help you to feel reassured. If she were to know that you miss that, and if you were to ask for it right out loud, it might be a relief to know of something "easy" she could do for you to make you feel better. You can't know if you don't ask!

Bob, I know that openning up like that and revealing some of your deepest requests and fears is new territory to you, but that kind of vulnerability is exactly the stuff that the true white knights are made of. Heros are the people who reveal themselves transparently. SF can be a good salve to an open wound...and feeling desired like that is a godsend to a rejected BS...but really openning up and asking for what you need is the practice of a champion.

So in the challenge of the day, I challenge you to open up to your fair lady. In holding myself to that same challenge, I will also open up myself to one of my close people on Wednesday, and will "report back" what occurred when I asked for what I needed. Gee...I guess that means I'm going to have to figure out what I need, huh?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Signed one good ol' American, Wild West gal!


CJ

* nods* at CJ.

Its all good.

Not sure about this WTFS approach though. I do not want to get robotic 'ILY' from her.

I have already told her that I am VERY happy when she says 'ILY'.

and from reading here its a very complicated thing for a caring FWW to say. As you point out she could fele she used it cheaply in the past OR she actually doesn't know what love IS.

It will be an issue if it continues for ages, but for now I think I can live with loving ACTIONS and wait for the words. Better than having her tell me 'ILY' while not acting lovingly towards me.

BOBPURE--I though you knew for sure that your marriage is on its way to recovery. But you say in one of your posts that you dont know yet! That you are in some sort of emergency with each other.
It sounds like you are doing pretty well, despite the fact that she does not say ILY to you. The fact that you are "all over each other" is really good. Thats a good sign, if it stays like that for a long time, until all her memories of the OM fade away! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I am sure the ILYs are ready to come out soon!
How long was her EA and her PA? How did you find out? I am not too familiar with your story. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Were you really stripped of your clothes with only a leaf? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

MYRTA

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bob Pure:
<strong> *

I have already told her that I am VERY happy when she says 'ILY'.

It will be an issue if it continues for ages, but for now I think I can live with loving ACTIONS and wait for the words. Better than having her tell me 'ILY' while not acting lovingly towards me. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob- I concur - I think your W is showing you that she loves you but isn't able to put it into words yet...you two sound like you are doing wonderfully!

How long was her EA and her PA? How did you find out? I am not too familiar with your story.
Were you really stripped of your clothes with only a leaf?


Myrta I am discovering that her EA was more than a year. PA only 2 occasions in June and July this year. I found out because my W had been behaving very strangely since I sponsored her to attend a sport tournament in Italy in early June with OM ( and the rest of the English Karate team).

No domestic support, lots of weight loss and gym work, very cold towards me and the kids, lots of lunchtime appointments.....etc etc

I "busted" her in bed on D-day night - in an unpleasant way, lets leave it at that.

On a lighter note YES I stripped to just a maple leaf to take my FWW a glass of wine the other night ! It made her laugh till she cried !

I'll never live it down that I told Stanley that fact though !!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Its an example of how much fun we are starting to have again ! And how much better I look in a maple leaf than a few months ago ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

My 'emergency' comment Mytra was just that I both recognise that we are in VERY early recovery. Our priority is personal recovery right now, not M recovery yet. FWW just isn't in a place where she can actively DO much soul searching, discussing etc. We'll take no permanent decisions until we are both fully participant in the recovery.

I know thats not an MB stage but it makes sense for us. We are learning to communicate after the bomb hit us, taking breaths, dare I say enjoying and rediscovering each other spiritually, sexually, conversationally.

My FWW appears to be thriving and is happier and stronger every day, while I am getting enough back from her to keep going for a while longer without focus on MY healing.

Does any of that make any sense ? I hope so !

Myrta and sadFWW thanks for your kind thoughts.
I truly hope we can recover from this, but I am awar ethat it is by no means certain that we will.

<small>[ October 27, 2004, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

Hey everyone,

I have been reading on MB for about a month now and just started to get my feet wet. I am the BS, d day was 8-7-04. H had a PA and EA with OW for 5 months.

My story is posted, so I will not go into all the details here.


My question to you is this, I am starting to get romantic feelings back for WH, but have to ask him to go there with me. After all that I have been through, it's hard for me to say will you kiss me, hold me, touch me. I know he feels guilty and told me that he does not know why I would want him now. Well, I had surgery in May, the "Big H" so I was out of the game for a while. Before A was dicovered we did have a great night of SF, but that was it. I had to beg him then.

Here's the interesting part, we have been in MC for 8 weeks now, it's going good, but H still won't talk about A, (he's put that part of his life behind him) I need to talk about it, so does he. Anyway we have had some heavy petting going on for a few weeks, that once again I have to ask for. In our state, if the A is revealed and you have sex with your WS, then in the state's eyes you have forgiven your WS in the eyes of God, so they do too. Yep, that means that I could lose everything if this does not work out.

What do I do? I am ready to be close again, it's been long enough already, but is it too soon to throw all my eggs in my basket?

BW (me) 39
WH 44
married 12 years
2 kids 11 & 9
d-day 8-7-04
total honestly about A 9-3-04, NC plan A
OW 36
owh 36
ow kids, 4 ages 8 months to 8 years

<small>[ October 27, 2004, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: bamababy ]</small>