I will start by saying I love my WW and want our marriage to work. BH 31, WW 32. We have been married 4 1/2 years, 10 1/2 yr relationship, 1 son (2). I discovered she had an EA/PA that spanned 5 months on 9/11/04. I caught her red handed at his place. I have to say that at that moment a lost control and screamed and called her every hurtful name in the book. I was in trauma for a couple days, but as it lifted realized I didn't want a divorce because I didn't want my 2yr old son raised by someone else. That was the first step for me. The second came when I looked real hard and discovered I still love my WW even though she hurt me terribly. That led me to tell her I wanted to work it out and we should go to counseling.

Before I asked her that, she was the one who wanted to go to counseling. But when I came around she said she had to think about it. A day later, without giving me an answer, she just asked me when our first session was. OK.

After D-Day, she moved out and is staying at her parents (who want her out and back home asap). We went to three sessions over three weeks, but I never saw any progress in her. I feel I have made strides. From accepting that the affair happened, to understanding some (but not all, admittedly) of my failures that contributed to the affair, to realizing my wife was in as much pain as I was (although sometimes you wonder because of her behavior which I'll get to).

Like I said earlier, I didn't see much progress in her wanting to work out our problems. She had agreed to no contact during our first session. As time went on, I had my doubts she was honoring this. Of course, I didn't believe when she said she wouldn't contact OM because I had just been lied to for the past 5 months. I began to snoop, I felt horrible about it, didn't want to do this, but felt I had to. Unfortunately, I found something, a TXT message, pretty graphic too, from my W to OM. She had been in contact with him by TXT message and phone calls, 2-3 times a day the whole time. I lost it again, felt the rage, betrayal and relived DDay all over again. Here I had opened myself up and laid my heart on the line and she had betrayed me again. That day was 10/15/04. Again, I let her have it, calling her every name in the book, telling he she doesn't care about me, how could she do this, she created this, our problems were all her fault, etc. Not all true, but I was enraged.

The situation now. She called her brother the next day, crying, said she screwed up for sure this time by continuing EA and that she doubts I would take her back. He called me, asked what I wanted to do. I asked if she was sincere this time, he said yes it's is defineltely over with OM, I was reluctant but wanted to. Reluctant because I didn't want her thinking that she could walk all over me with no consequences. I agreed to work it out.

Here is our status now. She agreed to move back once our house is finished (water pipe broke and ruined kitchen, just another stress over th past couple months but should be finished by end of week), going to both joint and individual counseling, NC with OM that I know of (and I pry to make sure).

I have tried to meet her EN, things she said in counseling about not enough attention, never wanting to do anything, I'm no fun, and other things. She is not accepting any of it, in fact this weekend she set off on a verbal attack on me in which I was basically called a no fun, boorish jerk. During this rant she also said she was a horrible person anyway so what should I expect from her. I did not defend myself, only said that, yes, I have done all those things and acted that way at times, but was I like that all the time? Why then have we been together 10yrs, why did you marry me if I am so horrible? She responded she was horrible, I shouldn't want her, etc. I responded that she was not horrible, only going through a hard time and that I loved her and we would work it out. All this is fog I believe. She is having a very hard time accepting that I love her. Can't understand why I don't leave her (she would me). She's only here because of our son. I only want to keep her from her friends (mid 20's, single, party goers, only been hanging around with for 7-8 months, surprised by the time coincidence?), she's not staying home and being little Susy homemaker, etc. This is all fog, she is being defiant. I can still read this woman when I open my eyes.

It seems whenever I bring up the subject of us "working it out" she gets defensive, doesn't want to deal with it, etc. WW says I am to "over the top". This fits with her family profile, littered with divorces and affairs. People slip in and out of relationships, I think she thinks she can do the same. There is none of that in my extended family background, of course she says that they probably just stay together even though they are miserable.

The question then, how do I know when I can start depositing love units? She's in the fog now, when I show her attention it is counterproductive and she lashes back at me, "You never did this before, etc." I will say, after her toungue lashing Saturday night, she had a talk with her mother Sunday morn, we then took our S to a pumpkin farm that afternoon. We had a wonderful family day together and no blow ups since then. But also no signs of any affection. I feel she just wants me to keep a lid on it until she's ready. Any suggestions, particularly from FWW, on how to handle this? I have left out a lot of details (I could write a book) but I do not see her wanting to split. She gives me signals about an assumed future, example, during a talk about my Ps and our S, she said "You know that is their only grandson until we have more." Ten minutes later she'll tell me she hasn't decided what she wants, hasn't made "her decision". What the heck was that? And that was post DDay but during her continued contact. Since 2nd DDay, there has been no "my decision" talk to me, but told (the aforementioned) "friend" Sat night after tongue lashing that if not for S she would be gone. Is it that she wants the stability of me and a family but craves the excitement that OM gives her? I am boring, but reliable, OM is fun. Let's see him make the mortgage, etc. and see how that works.

Right now I am just sitting tight and waiting for her to move back. I feel if I show her any attention, she rejects me, but if I don't what reason is there for her to love me again? I am frustrated.

Hi bear ! It is sad that you need to be here right now but you are in a place that can help you restore your marriage. Thats great !

Reading your post, I can imagine the trauma in your lives right now.

It seems awfully soon to me to be in counselling, as you do not even know if the affair has truly stopped yet.
I will only advise out of my own experience, other wiser heads than me will chirp in with more 'to do's.

Firstly, information is power. Buy and read 'Surviving an affair" by Harley and Chalmers. It explains the dynamics of affairs, and how adopting certain behaviours can influence your spouse to rejoin you in your marriage. You need to understand the dynamics of affairs so that you can THEN truly comprehend the MarriageBuilders precepts.

You must stop 'lovebusting' immediately - that is find another vent for your anger than shouting at your wife ( the gym, this message board, chopping wood, whatever works!)and give you both some emotional space to breathe while you forumulate yourplan of action.

That may involve MBs 'Plan A', exposing the affair to the loved ones of your wife's lover and other actions.

There are some very clever and helpful people on here who can help interpret MB precepts for you so that it all makes sense and becomes 'executable' not just words in a book.

I do not want to overwhlem you bear, because you can do this ! You just need to intelligently fight for your marriage.

Search on this forum for posts by WorthATry regarding exposure and ark^^ regarding Plan A.

After all that ? Take a breath and start rescuing your marriage. It CAN be done !!!

all blessings !

I hear what you are saying thanks for the advice. Before it is over I am going to need a lot more.

When we went to counseling, she promised the counselor and me that it was over, she lied. Our last session the counselor said that she was disappointed in her. I am about 80% sure she is living up to no contact now. There is always doubt when the A is this fresh.

I know I must stop the LBs and am very conscious of my actions now. My LBs were: 1) Upon initial discovery of the A (but when you find your WW undressed in another's bed, I have the right to LB, OM was not to be found). 2) When I discovered the TXT MSG. I should have handled that better, but anger resurfaced. Many emotions came up. The MC has the same advice about controlling my anger, working out, etc. I agree with both of you, but those are the only two times I yelled at my W through this whole situation. I reacted, the MC said that I should just say in a firm voice "I am very angry". Every other time I talk to WW I am fine. 3) Whenever I bring up us "working it out". She does not want to talk about it. I do not bring up the A either, just what our future is. 4) When I give her attention. She sees it as fake and rejects me. I think she actually gets angry because the only reason I do it is because of the A, not because I want to.

I do want to give her attention, love all the things I took for granted and then stupidly let slip away. I honestly believe we can work this out because I am willing to take the steps that are needed. What I don't know is will she?

I believe the PA is over, we live in a small enough town, she is staying with her Ps. I can account for every minute of her time since Dday. I don't stalk her, mind you, just I am aware of where she is, what she is doing, and who she is with. Her feelings are another thing. I know she still wants to see him. If I wasn't there, if she was free, she would. All I can say is I know she is trying. What I see her going through mirrors things I have read on this site from FWWs.

Right now, at this moment, I do not want to do any further damage. No LBs. I just feel that if I give her attention, she gets mad. If I don't I am doing the thing that drove her off to start with. If I keep my head up and move ahead, she says I'm acting like nothing is wrong. If I look distressed, I'm moping.

I really think she is trying to drive me away, demonize me, etc to justify her having an A. When I am nice to her, it hurts her because she knows she did wrong. She has asked me why I am nice to her, when I tell her it's because I still love her, she gets pissed, and meaner. By the way, I have also told her I was sorry for the crap I did during our marriage and that I would work on my behavior. Being nice and telling her this just ticks her off.

I think I am going to just let things sit for about a month, but it is hard when you have to raise a 2 yr old. I feel like there is a line that I cross. I have kinda figured out where it is at. If I play the role of dependable provider, dad, the one who gets things done, I am fine. If I venture anywhere near husband or lover, whether it be by touching her, getting to close, or expressing feelings for her, I get in trouble. By the way, I hear stories of people having mind blowing SF while working things out. I wish, I'm going crazy here. My W is more attractive to me now than she has been in years. I think it is an animal instinct, you know.

Speaking of plan A. Yes, I have read about it but have a hard time applying the concepts. Our problems were born from the fact that we started to lead seperate lives. We just flat didn't spend enough time together. All of the complaints that my W has told me about our M revolve around my lack of attention and her feeling like she was on her own. Sometimes I become a horrible person, but that is revisioist history and fog talking.

I would like some advice on plan A. I would also like some advice on what she might be thinking and going through. It is hard for me to know my limits and how I should act when she won't tell me what she wants. What I know is when I ask, I get in trouble.

Side note, as I was posting I received a pleasant email from W asking if I could pick up S from daycare and giving me her schedule for next two days. This is why I don't think anything more is going on with OM. She now let's me know her schedule, asks me if she can see friends (long time, dependable ones) that actually bothers me, I have never been controlling, just the opposite, I gave too much trust and she betrayed it, and asking if I'm having a good day.

One more item I am curious about. Need insight. She won't wear her wedding ring. Wondered why i wear mine. Told her it reminded me that we are still married, and gives me strength when I look at it to keep trying. Plus I feel naked without it. Asked why she won't wear hers, that it hurts me when she doesn't she says she doesn't feel like she's married and feels funny wearing it. Funny thing is, the way I see it, when she was having the A, she wore it all the time. She shouldn't have felt married then, she didn't act like it, shouldn't she feel 'funny' wearingit then. But now when we are trying to work on our M (or saving it), when a person would need the most strength, she won't wear it. What is that all about?

Also, to answer a question about the OM. He is single about 25 (fits the demo of her new friends) and the whole freaking town knows. In fact she says she doesn't care, but then tells me she can feel people staring at her and can hear them talk behind her back. I know it hurts her, I am saddened. People I see don't talk to me about it, if it comes up, they are sympathetic. I, don't want to toot my horn, was/am well liked, respected as a stand up guy good father and husband. I thought I was doing a good job in my marriage. Her friends and others have referred to me as a great guy, a lucky find. By contrast the OM is going nowhere. Not that he won't, he is educated, and frankly I liked the guy til now. But when you do crap like this you loose a lot of respect from people. This is, after all a small (15,000 pop), Christian based town.

<small>[ October 26, 2004, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: Bear04 ]</small>

Bear04 - Your wife is in Withdrawal. Withdrawal normally lasts (at least the most intense stages of it) about 4-8 weeks. While she is in Withdrawal there is very little you can do or say that is going to "register" or deposite Love Units into her Love Bank. Right now her Bank is "closed for remodeling."

So you STAY in Plan A behavior (I know it's hard at times) and eliminate Love Busters.

Also, remember that Withdrawal starts all over again with EVERY contact. So if No Contact is broken, the "clock" get reset to zero and you begin again.

Once Withdrawal ends, you will be able to make progress, but not until then.

While you stated the town was "Christian," how about the two of you? Is faith in Christ a part of your lives? If so, I can also offer you some support in that aspect of your marriage and your current situation if you'd like.

God bless. Hang in there. It's a giant rollercoaster ride right now and sometimes you just have to "hang on."

That is what I figured. I look at her and I feel sad. The moodiness, despair, it is just like someone coming down from a high. It scares me that the clock resets with each contact. I hope she got the message after I discovered her contacts. I will leave, I will not take it, she knows that now. I don't see that as an LB I see it as letting her know I am not afraid to plan B. Frankly, when I get like that with her, she responds, and respects. When I am soft on her, she abuses and doesn't respect.

It is a midwestern Christian town. We are both Catholic but not practicing like we should. We would go through spurts were we would attend and then not attend regularly. One thing she did insist on was when choosing a counselor she did not want a faith based counselor. She said she did not want to be judged. That applies to friends and family as well. She tends to gravitate towards those that tell her what she wants to hear. That she needs to do whatever makes her happy...blah,blah,blah. Stays away from those that give her tough love and tell her to do the right thing for herself, son, and family. Ironically, when you look at the tough love group, it consists of her longest friends, family members, etc. The 'happy' crowd is filled with singles, divorcees, etc. Kinda funny how that works out.

If it sounds like I blame this all on her, I am not. Read an earlier post where I admit to my mistakes. It is just tough that i want to work things out and she progresses at a slower pace. It is like a "second hell". I also read somewhere that once she comes out of withdrawal and we progress that I will have a regression and wonder if I want to stay married. Is this true?

IMO what you need is some Plan A pointers.

Ark^^ is the plan A queen. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Her post is in my sig. Go there and read it ten times ten. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Let go of your anger it will lead you Nowhere. It's hard but definitly worth it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Your WW is in withdrawl like the others said. But it could be worse. My WW doesn't even want to work anything out for the last 2 months and I have been plan Aing quite successfully through it all (Jennifer C. said so). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

So take a step back and get into the program. It will work if you let it. God Bless.

C.

Bear, I hear what you are saying. This "judging" excuse is a favorite of those of us who sin. It's smoke and mirrors because we all "judge" at times. That's part of why there ARE things called "right and wrong."

When it comes to faith in God and Christ, however, it is GOD who is the judge, not us. On many matters God has clearly defined "right and wrong" in the Scripture and all we do, as followers, is either stand "with" or "against" God. Stating something is not "judging," and God is quite clear in matters pertaining to marriage.

There is this little thing called Commandments, "Thou shalt not commit adultery." I know, I know, it's such a small thing and God didn't really mean what He said. Remember, and this is a point that you might want to get across to your wife if you can, God judges AND forgives sinners who repent BECAUSE of what Christ did for us. All we need to do is to be obedient to our Sovereign Lord.

"She tends to gravitate towards those that tell her what she wants to hear. That she needs to do whatever makes her happy...blah,blah,blah. "

Of course she does. That's what is our human nature. We are innately selfish and self-centered and don't like to be told "no." In that respect she is acting like a little child. That, too, is part and parcel of an illicit affair. To admit otherwise would be to "judge herself" and admit that what she has been doing is wrong.

If you MUST get a secular counselor, though I'd really recommend you get a Christian Counselor, then at least get one you check out and make sure that they are committed to saving marriages and holding both of you accountable.

Also, if you'd like me to email you a couple of pamphlets that might help get things started, drop me a line at mbforeverhers@yahoo.com and I'll email them to you.

God bless.

You hit it right on the head when you said "childlike" Forever. I feel like that is what I am dealing with here. I mean, take some responsibility for your actions. I have, i have so many regrets and I have told her all about them. She just cried. This is hard, real hard on both of us.

I always thought we shared similar beliefs/backgrounds. I am finding out we don't. A little story. A person just got caught stealing from her brothers business. She said to me "no matter what you think of me, at least I am not a thief. A thief is the lowest person on earth." I bit my tongue and said nothing. A few days later we were talking again and it came up. I couldn't hold my tongue this time. I framed what I said in the form of my belief system. I was trying to convey to her where I was, what I felt, and how I was raised. This is what came out.

"You (WW) say that a thief is the lowest person on earth. I believe that some sins are greater than others. In my book adultery is second only to murder as the worst thing you can do. By commiting that act you have not only lied to me, betrayed me, but also stole from me time in my life and the innocense of what I thought our marriage was. If a person steals, they can give back, if they lie, tell the truth. But there are two things you can't give back, life and what you gave to the OM."

Definitely a LB, I needed to say it, she had the right to hear it. She has to know me and what I believe if we are going to make it. Of course she jumped right away and couldn't believe that I was equating what she did with murder. She wasn't listening because that is not what I said. However, I did put her down there with the lowest of the low. That hurt. But the goal was not for me to hurt her. It was to tell her just how badly she hurt me and to shake her a little bit and get her to really think about her actions. To that point, with what she grew up around (family history) she probably thought that you could get away with it and come back to the M when she wanted because that is what she saw in her life. I told her in MC that she has lost much of my respect but that I want to respect her again.

All this happened before I found MB. I would not say it now, especially when she is in the fog/withdrawal state she's in. I fear that all I did was tell her that I think she'll never be good enough for me so why try. But she is still hanging in there. I sound hard, but I am really not hard to please, all I want now is for her to be nice to me, respect me, and be true to her word about NC with the OM. We can build from there. I'm sure I'll get some posts about "what about her feelings, what she was going through, she was hurting". There are some things you just don't do and the big A is one of them. Whatever problems we had in our M just blew up a 1000 times and is making it a 1000 times harder to rebuild.

shmaley, I just read the thread on plan A. I think I will get it eventually. One overriding theme I hear is that the WS has to see the BS can live without them. I truly believe my WW knows that already. When I found out about contact 2 weeks ago, I took my ring off for the first time since this happened and set it in the nightstand. Next day she called her bro, sobbing, saying he won't take me back now. Bro said, "probably not, you really f'd up". Well, she then wanted to work it ou and promised NC, which I just confirmed tonight with inside source she is honoring. After the blowout Sat, I said to myself Sunday, just shut up about relationship, be nice, do what she'll allow you to do, and show her that I can go on without her. Which I know I can, it'll be hard, but I will. What she knows though is the the hardest part won't be leaving her, it will be what this does to our 2yr old. I am definitely going to put me together a solid plan A & B. Need to learn more.

A question, even before all this I would talk to the guys, golf league, etc, and this A topic would come up. Suprisingly, to a man, they all said, if they had kids, there is no way they would ever risk an A. It's not worth it to lose your kids over. We all agreed though that women would more readily have an A because they know that the courts would give them custody. This may not be true, but it is what men i know think. I think if the courts placed children with the BS consistantly, without regard to gender, affairs would drop in numbers. Spouses would be more ready to work out their probs rather than seek other partners. Agree or disagree.

I am formulating a plan A. Here is my situation now. We had a pipe break in our house and have been going through a three month remodel. No doubt has added more stress to an already bad situation. W said last week she will come home, but only when remodel is done. If that is her way back, fine with me. That will be this weekend. She is staying at parents house now.

Question is, what kind of plan A tips do you have. The complaints she had about me so far are: not attentive enough, no fun, just want to watch TV, i don't pay attention to her, don't talk to her, not affectionate (send flowers, etc.). I can tell you that when I do those things now, she reacts negatively. So what can I do. What I have done this past week are: give her space, don't bring up the "big talks" (our future, the A), don't engage in hesaid/she said battles. I'm just being nice, pleasant, do things for her, small things, nothing over the top, nothing romantic (I want to), just trying not to smother her and more playing the role of provider/go to man. Problem is, that is what I played over the past few months, that was her complaint and she went to OM for the "romance". Any suggestions?

Secondly, if she does start babbling, what are some appropriate responses? Here is a sample of the babble.

I love you but am not "in love" with you.
You are no fun anymore.
You think you know it all.
You are a real jerk.
You will hold this over my head forever..yes you will. Throw it back in my face whenever you get the chance.
Why do you still love me? Why haven't you left?
The only reason you're here is for our S.
All you do is mope around.
(Day or two later) You act like there is nothing wrong.

She will try to engage me in a fight, I just know it. How do I not get sucked in? I am thinking I will just defend myself by admitting past mistakes and say I am working on not repeating them. And I will not go on an attack against her. Anything to add?