I saw my husband today.

We talked. We talked about whether we should have sex, how we feel about it.

He said he doesn't want to give me false hope that things are going to be better between us, and that he thinks maybe I think that when we are intimate.

I said, well when I have sex with you it was a gift. I said I am alone, and I still desire you, but as far as I know you are still with someone else which creates a risk of STDS etc. and that if something happens to me , what will happen to our daughter.

I said that I wanted to lay my cards on the table but he got upset and left. He said I talk too much, and that when he comes here tomorrow to keep my mouth shut.

These are my cards , sort of...

I don't want to live with him, but I do want to be a couple. I don't ask him to support me, but I do ask him to help out when he can, as he has been doing.

I do want him to be more involved in his daughters life as he has started to do lately.

I do want monogamy, the same as I am offering.
that would mean that he has to end any friendshp with other women permanently, no contact. and I will not pursue other men. I will be his, only.

He gets a bit of freedom, his own place and not to feel trapped. I get to be safe from abuse.

He gets me as a lover, and more importantly to be in his childs life, to know that he is doing right by her. He gets to be her hero, redeem himself, and be proud of himself for being a man.He gets to be my hero.

He gets freedom from guilt and he doesns't have to lie or cheat or keep secrets from me. He gets to be himself with someone who already knows the best and worst about him, and still loves him and will care for him, meet his needs.

He gets his family, but whatever space he needs.

I was also going to tell him that if this doesn't suit him, if he doesn't agree, to telll me what parts he doesn't like etc. And that this is not a trick or coercion to trap him.


What do you think? How will he take this?

I am trying to get out of limbo in a way that will be attractive to him.

I need feedback.

IMHO, He doesn't want to know what you want. He's not ready for this kind of conversation. You will be perceived as needy and unattractive.

Study up on Divorce-busters 180 - because I think that would be much more appropriate in your circumstances - and the attitude that you deserve to have him chasing you, begging for your time, your monogamy, etc. and that won't happen until he sees you are not so readily available for him to return to his old life, if his fantasy falters or fails.

I am trying to walk a fine line between not pursuing him , but not rejecting him either. I guess I am trying to correct his false assumption that I am trying to trap him into the same thing we had before, which I'm not.

I agree that it would be nice to have him pursue me, but he is too afraid of being rejected.

I want to be up front with him. I don't like playing games.

The ow sort of has a no love no commitment no promises friends who have sex thing going, he comes and goes as he likes, and she is fine with this.

It has been very attractive to him, and I am up against this.

Shul, it doesn't sound to me like he is even remotely interested in a relationship, much less your offer of occasional free sex. I think you already have your answer.

And I don't believe he is a monogamous person or has any interest in becoming one. So while you might tell him all those things *YOU* want, that doesn't mean he gives a damn.

Agree with Kayla, I would suggest the 180 or Plan B and not get my hopes up.

Shul:

Sorry to hear about your situation. I feel sorry for you. DO you think so little of yourself that you would agree to:

1. Not have him support you and give him all the space that he needs. Meanwhile you are risking your health in having sex with this man while he has sex with others. PLease have some respect for yourself. How can he respect you if you do not respect yourself. I am gonna say this at the risk of getting lambasted on here, but you (in my opinion) are being a doormat right now. it is clear your H doesn't want $hit with you, but you are willing to do anything for him to keep him in your life. I apologize for the tone of my post, but you wanted opinions and I am giving you mine. Good luck with this man, I hope you can reconcile this situation.

I would agree, except that he has been coming around alot, and talking about how he misses 'us', and being very nice these days for the most part, spending more time with our daughter, and so on.

This is on his own, I haven't pursued him.

But it is very awkward between us, and I want to clear the air, you know?

I think things have gotten stale with ow, and he is really missing us. H is living in the house how, surrounded by memories of our life. I think he is starting to think about what he had and what he lost when he left.

He seems to be wavering on the fence somewhat.

This might be a good time for me to shake things up a bit.

I am advised against plan B for various reasons; a 180 I have been doing and this is the first relationship talk in ages; I am leaning toward tough love in terms of telling him he is free to go if that is what he wants, and I am being quiet the rest of the time.

He brought it up today, about the sex thing. I alsmost told him no moe sex until you get tested and dump ow.

shul...

I'm gonna reply...
you're are gonna hate my reply...

so there it is...
and here it is...

I don't want to live with him, but I do want to be a couple. I don't ask him to support me, but I do ask him to help out when he can, as he has been doing.

what message do you think this will teach your daughter.....

I do want monogamy, the same as I am offering.
I do want monogamy, the same as I am offering.
that would mean that he has to end any friendshp with other women permanently, no contact. and I will not pursue other men. I will be his, only.



what message do you think this will teach your duaghter

He gets a bit of freedom, his own place and not to feel trapped. I get to be safe from abuse.

what message do you think this will teach your daughter

and what abuse ????


He gets freedom from guilt and he doesns't have to lie or cheat or keep secrets from me. He gets to be himself with someone who already knows the best and worst about him, and still loves him and will care for him, meet his needs.

what message do you think this will teach your daughter....


He gets his family, but whatever space he needs.

what message do you think this will teach your daughter...


What do you think? How will he take this?

I will tell you what I think...

but I implore you shul...as a good exercise in learning to wrap your mind and thoughts around this situation...
to see what you are offering thru the eyes of a child...
a daughter
a young impressionable woman.....

answer them from what the message each of these send to her....

try it....

it's scary to change the way we you or I look at things...

I try to see it thru your eyes shul..i really do...
but each answer draws me back to the fact that you have a daughter...

of whom i believe her fathers interactions teeter on being at best of gross selfishness and at worst toxic to her having a healthy view of...

men
fathers
and husbands....

please shul...

think about what you wrote objectively and how they may appear to a young girl....

ARK

Ark,

The alternative is that she have no father or any man in her life, which is pretty much how it has been. We have no relatives and I won't remarry.

She needs a father.

I need a lover.

Maybe a part time father is better than none.

Maybe it is better than the two of us being alone and her seeing him go off with another woman and her kids.

This would protect me financialy and physically. I would not be in harms way if he chooses to continue to be foolish with money etc.

I am meeting him where he is this way. I am not asking for anything he hasn't got to give. I am thinking of it as a trial kind of reconciliation.

It would solve alot of things for all of us. She gets her dad back, I get him without the stress, and he gets to stop feeling guilty and hiding.

But maybe you are right. Maybe she and I are better off alone.

I wish you could understand how lonely she is, and how happy she is when he comes to see her.

Shul, some "fathers" in name only need to be treated as the sperm donors they are - just like some bio-moms need to be regarded as surrogates for pregnancy. They are not qualified by matters of the heart to be parents.

Who are you to judge that your daughter is better off with this "excuse" for a father contaminating her life because YOU will it onto both of them???

She needs a real father. Not an excuse. And while it's not something you can give to her, you can avoid damaging substitutes!

Shul:

I think Ark hit it right on the head. PLease really sit back and read what you wrote, it is actually quite tragic. Don't do this to yourself. You will never be truly happy doing this. Kids are so much smarter than we give them credit for. Your daughter will eventually see what is really going on here. Would you adivse your daughter to do what you would be doing in her future relationships. Would you?????? I think while you are probably doing this for her, you are doing alot of this also for you. You are probably co-dependent (many of us are), and probably don't think of yourself enough to think that you deserve a husband who loves you and puts you number one in his life. You would rather have a "halh husband" than no husband at all. Don't teach your daughter this behavior.

I am sorry for your pain. I can't really tell you what to do, but I can say a prayer for you.

Shul..

You have asked for objectivity..unfortunately I can not provide this..and neither can anyone else.

I can objectively repeat for you the facts as you have presented them, but both my interpretation and opinion are entirely subjective.

Having said that.
Do you know what your posts communicate to me?

Fear and weakness. Nothng else. Were I a predator you would be dinner. It is clear to me that your H has zero respect for you..and that you have none for yourself. You will pretty much settle for whatever you think you can get.

Allow me to draw attention to a few things you have said that I find quite alarming.

"I wish you could understand how lonely she is and how happy she is when he comes to see her"

YIKES!! Wake up shul!!! Your daughter is living a cycle of affection/rejection that will..not might..will make her vulnerable in the extreme to the first loser who tosses a few scraps her way. Sort of makes me wonder just how YOU arrived at the conclusion that your plans were acceptable.

An absent father is absolutely better than a part time one. Uncle Dad is not a realistic option.

You are robbing her of knowing what a father IS. You would be forcing her to settle for a mockery just as you are settling for a mockery.

You do not need a lover. Get a vibrator. Or a divorce and a lover worth loving. Honestly, how are you supposed to make coherant plans for your life with this dreck as a given?!

Shul..you are deeply deceiving yourself. Stop it this instant. You can not afford to indulge in this luxury. Your H will not be faithfull to you part time if he isn't willing to be faithfull to you full time. You will just be his unpaid whore. Easy sex. An open pair of legs when the other women in his life get too demanding. How revolting that you would consider doing this to yourself..and what a shamefull thing it is that you are willing to teach this way of life to your helpless child who is a captive audience.

I have heard you qoute scripture as a reason for your continued efforts in this marriage.

What you suggest has NO place in scripture.

You are not to willingly engage in this sort of debauchery. You are not to be the OW in your own marriage. There are such things as standards..

Your H adamantly rejects them.

Do you?

--Noodle

SHUL...

You misunderstand a basic here...

he CAN be a dad
he CAN be a great dad...

and none of that is or should be contingent on whether or not you and he are together....

you keep presenting and viewing her and you like package...

see the daughter
be my lover....

why can't
why won't he just be a dad...

why can't
why won't you place ALL your focus on facilitating that....

set a time period for him to be nothing but a dad....
set it in your head...
and do everything you can to facilitate...
and if at the end of the time period he has made no consistant changes that show a dependable accountable FATHER...

cut your losses and be done with it...

you condone his poor choices over and over...
as a man
as a husband
as a loving person in ACTION
either he is a father or he is not..
inspite of yours and his relationship...

why can't he come over and see only her??

why???

why can't he just be a dad to her...and play no other role in YOUR life?

ARK
(shul I'm really pulling for you...
your dependency and refusal to realize that all the forgiveness and love you give him serves him no purpose...
infact excusing and accepting his bad behaviors harms him more in the long run..
the more you protect him from the consequances of his choices...the more he will continue to abuse himself and others....

Shul, I've watched you, over and over again, vacillate between being terribly hurt, even pushed around physically, by this man, and saying "I think he's juuuuust about to get it together." You've said it many, many times.

Shul, ark and noodle are so right. You have to get this man out of your life. If not permanently, then at least contingent upon a FULL commitment from him, testing for STDs, financial support, the whole nine yards.

You deserve nothing less.

You do not need a lover, and your daughter does not need this man. She needs a real father, not Mr. "See you when I see you."

Oh, I'm begging you now Shul, get clear of this man. You have not given him any boundaries. You must reclaim your dignity and cut him loose.

You will never regret it. You'll only regret not having done it sooner.

Please believe me.

Please free yourself of him.

Don't reward him any more for good things he's done in the distant past.

Getting away from him, telling him to get lost, is good for you, good for your girl, and good for him.

Stop being afraid your daughter will be hurt.

Stop being afraid you will be lonely.

Stop being afraid he will go crazy, maybe hurt himself.

Your choices are all guided by fear.

Maybe this has something to do with the way your parents died. But let's not put you in analysis just now.

There will be time for that, but not until you are free.

Please oh please, do this. You pray, lots I'll bet. You ask for answers, intervention. Perhaps you ask for your H to begin seeing clearly.

But what you haven't heard, I think, is the answer. Which is that you are the one with the power to make him see clearly. By pushing him away.

And if you do it, and it doesn't work, you can have a life again.

Stop feeling like you owe this man.

I feel like going on about this for ten pages. I want to beat you over the head with it until you see it.

I think about you all the time, and I have hoped, for quite some time, that you'll see you have to get away from him.

The fact that he shoved you around at least once is reason enough. And there are so many more...

GC

This is how I see it.

He is sick, ASP is a very real disorder. He is very broken.

In spite of that he has tried very hard to do the right thing.

What amazes me is that he stuck it out for as long as he did. It was a year ago that he broke down, that he couldn't do it anymore.

But over the past year he has seen how his own choices have caused him harm. He has talked to me about how he has made a mess of his life. For a person with Asp this is a major insight.

The person he has hurt the most is himself, and he is starting to see that.

In spite if it he has started to make an effort, maybe its not perfect, but its a step in the right direction.

Lately he has started to contribute financially , without me asking or demanding.

He has started to be more involved with our daughter, now that he isn't working. He has offered to have her to the house after school a few nights a week, now. Again, without any pressure from me.

Lst week when I was sick he cared for me, and did my work so that I could rest.

He is doing what he can. I am trying to give positive reinforcement.

I am also trying to be realistic. I accept that he might never be the perfect husband or provider, but if your spouse was sick, or crippled, would you give up on them?

I have a job that requires me to live there. I can support myself and my daughter, so I am safe financially.

I know lots of couples where one spouse works away and is only home a few days a month. This is no different.

One of the problems is that he has felt trapped, and this gives him some space if he wants it .

Another problem is that he felt unable to provide for us and he was upset that I was not contributing more. Now I am, so that burden is relieved somewhat. We still have debts, and he will pay his share of them.

I am fine with him being here a couple of nights a week- that is not a problem.

Our problem is with him lying, cheating and hiding.

(Actually it is his problem- he owns it).

And he has been miserable.

If he gives up the ow, he will have no reason to lie or hide from us out of guilt.

He can have a clear conscience, peace of mind.

It may be unorthodox, but I think it is do-able.

I have prayed about it, and I have peace about it.

This is not about fear for myself- it is about caring for him who is part of me, and wanting to see him healed. I am willing to my part because I believe that God is doing His part. I have a promise from God that He will heal him.

Shul

I believe God wants you and him to be equally yoked.

I believe that though God teaches forgiveness, he also gave us the option to divorce an adulterous, unrepenting partner.

I believe God will not heal him until he repents and humble himself before Him, asking for forgiveness and seeking to be led by Him.

That's my two cents.

Shul, I'm reading a book by Dr Bruce Fisher on "Rebuilding". It covers all the stages that one goes through when a relationship ends, and how to cope with each stage.

The stages include Denial, Fear, Adaptation, Loneliness, Friendship, Guilt, Rejection, Grief, Anger, Self-Worth, Letting Go, Trust, etc for both adult and children of divorce and broken relationships.

At the end of the chapter, it explains how children deal with the loss of one parent and how the custodial parent can help the child cope. There is also a chapter on The Healing Separation.

You deserve more than what he is willing to give you. Please take care.

Shul, I have a msg for you in Prayer Request.

sigh.....good luck Shul, you can always look on the bright side, at least you know what your future holds.........you can just look at your past.....Prayeres for you.

History shows us all kinds of strange relationships. Many people choose or adapt to situations that others feel unorthodox. None of us here are judge or jury - do whatever is right for you. So long as you are sure it really is what you want. You don't need to justify your actions but you seem to want someone to say "great idea Shul - go for it". It seems a bizarre solution so I don't think you'll get much support. Sorry, TT

shul...

why can't he be a good dad...without being a husband...

can you seperate the two...and imagine him and her having a worthwhile relationship...

who is it of the two of you making it a package deal...???

ark