Last night my H and I were suppose to go out on a date. h's meeting ran late and instead of being home between 8:30-9 he got home at 10:30. I was okay with it because my sister was going to watch the sleeping children and watch a movie with her Boyfriend and was okay with the later date. Well when H found out that my sister brought her BF to the house too he refused to go out, stateing that he did not want a guy he did not know in his home (afraid he would steal). I took it personally, like he was looking for an excuse not to go on the date with me. I had everything planned, I was all dolled up and ready for a night out with my H (it has been months). I figured he would get over it by the time he got home and we would go out and have a good time. Well he did not. He walked in the house walked right by myself and sister and BF and did not even say hello, even when I tried to introduce him to my sisters BF. H went upstairs and preceeded to watch the baseball game. After he made it very clear that he would not leave if he was here, my sister left, and I was very hurt and crying. I went back upstairs and we had it out in a not so good way not yelling but not saying not so nice words. I just could not see his point of view and he could not see mine. IMO I was comfortable with them as the kids were sleeping and I just needed so badly some time with him to reconnect, and he was not comfortable. Again I took it personally. He ended up going down stairs and sent a e-mail to my phone (below)
H wrote:
It is clear that you care nothing about me you are looking for a fight, a way out, but you want it to be My fault I told you this would happen one year ago, we are back there again. someone comes along you will be the one to take it this time if you want out

I do not understand how my planning a date to be with him gets me that e-mail. Why is he always thinking I am looking to cheat on him when all I am really doing is trying to make him happy and save our crumbleing M????

I ended up going to sleep and he was downstairs watching a movie. We ruined a perfect opportunity to spend a night together. we could have moved past the fact that we could not go out and made the best of it anyway, but instead we decided to love bust big time. I just do not feel I was wrong for being hurt or mad, and he does. That I apparently have no repsect for him or his feelings, where I feel the same back. I guess I am not looking for who was right and who was wrong here, as I feel we were both at fault. I am wondering why whenever we try to do something as a couple it is sabotoged. I feel he never wants to spend time with me, or purposely ruins it. If I ever want to go out he thinks I am on the look out for a guy I can leave him for. I am not looking to cheat, I am looking to make this work. Why can't he see that?

JUST slightly curious- was I wrong to not clear my sisters BF as one of the babysitter/movie watcher?

<small>[ October 27, 2004, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: KMEJ ]</small>

Wow. I must say that you have some patience. I don't have much to say about your situation, you clearly want your H and marriage at any cost. Hopefully someone will come along soon and encourage you to try and meet more of your H EN's. Perhaps then he will be more kind to you and treat you better. Keep up with the principles, they after all do work and save marriages every day, just like yours. Good luck with your H, he is clearly a man that is worth all of your suffering and hopefully someone your beautiful children grow up to emulate and model themselves after (as they will, because this is what they are learning now).

Goodluck <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ October 27, 2004, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: lemonman ]</small>

Lemonman-
what is the best way to meet a guys needs? I have tried so many that I have read, none that have really worked. I could really go for some guy advice that actually works. I e-mailed my H earlier to say I was sorry for last night, and asking him to meet me for lunch or to go out with me before he goes to work, and I would find a babysitter, and it has been 45 minutes and no answer.
I just feel more and more everyday that our M is past the point of no return.
Can I ask where you are from? (just curious)

<small>[ October 27, 2004, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: KMEJ ]</small>

^bump^
I am at a real low point right now and just do not know what to do. I don't know what I expect from all you wise people, I just do not know what to do anymore. It is so frustrateing. It is like my H and I do not know how to act around one another and we both feel taken for granted and always on edge. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

JUST slightly curious- was I wrong to not clear my sisters BF as one of the babysitter/movie watcher?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No.

However, I don't read where you acknowledged his concern and respected how he felt about it.

That's where I think you were wrong.

Your statement, "I figure he would get over it..." is a DJ. Indicating that your judgment was correct and his feelings didn't matter.

Please don't get me wrong, his behavior wasn't stellar, but you are the one here.

I see all sorts of DJ's, where you are filling in motives for him, assuming he was looking for an excuse.

You can't control how he feels, and the downside is great to getting wrong your assumptions about how he feels.

So work on your feelings and DJ's first.

TB

I really don't think you did anything wrong at all but try to plan a lovely night out.
Scratching my head.
Its almost like fog talk, could that be possible still do you think???

If there has ever been some sort of problem with a babysitter before then your H actions are understandable, however if not, then I think he is being very difficult.
Ok I can understand him saying he does not know the BF but your SISTER was there for goodness sake. Ok then that said in hindsight its easy to say yes I could have discussed this with H before saying ok, but really, what was the big deal??

Yes if my H did that to me I may if I was feeling a bit moody be annoyed, but I wouldn't as they say in Australia, 'carry on like two bob watch"!!

I do have to wonder if its deliberate.
He talks in the email about picking a fight but it seems the only one being confrontational was your H.
The only one talking about leaving and having an affair is your H
It appears to me from your post he was looking for a reason to not enjoy his time out with you.????

I also have to wonder if there is part of him that feels that you should not be married to him because he failed you & himself & his kids. Its as if he wants to drive you away.
Has he even tried to forgive himself do you think?

I read your posts & it seems he does not want to do much that actively works on building the M.
Is it just to soon after the A ended, is it possible it went on a bit longer after he told you no contact & is having withdrawal problems???? I mean we read that here for wives that we commonly see contact continue even after nc is agreed upon. I don’t see that men would be that different.

But overall his behaviour seems foggy to me. His behaviour is like the betrayed party not the WS and its not unusual for those in the fog to blame the BS for the affair.

Both of you need to get some MC & as quickly as possible. What about over the phone with Steve Harley? Maybe he would find that less intrusive.

HAve you thought of any IC help to get you through this for yourself? You're under a lot of pressure and the kids and this, don't let it it all sneak up on you & put you in hospital!!!

this was my response to my H this morning, by e-mail I wrote this:
I am sorry that I did not respect that you were uncomfortable leaving the house. I took it personally- that you just did not want to go out with me, and were using that as an excuse, and I was hurt. Can you see where I was coming from? I apologize for being disrespectful, and regret not taking advantage of the time we had to spend, in or out of the house. I love you very much, I do not want anyone else, so please stop worrying about that. Will you meet me somewhere for Lunch? Will you forgive me?

That was sent hours ago (around 9 am) still no answer.

Yes I knew that H objected to her having a guy over before, but I thought it was due to the fact that it was where the guy worked (with me at one of my jobs). I guess I should have known better, but too me the kids were asleep they were going to watch a movie, we NEED time for us. I guess I still do not see the problem, Does he really think that my sister will let this guy steal from us? In H's defense my sister does not have the best track record in choice of men. I just knew we needed to get out, and still think it would have been fine. Am I wrong here? Really? Do I have a point too?

"In H's defense my sister does not have the best track record in choice of men. I just knew we needed to get out, and still think it would have been fine. Am I wrong here? Really? Do I have a point too?"

This seems to be the crux of the issue. Your H likely feels like you should have known him well enough - and you should have cared enough about his feelings - to tell your sister NOT to bring her boyfriend.

Basically, you were selfish. I know this night out meant a lot to you. But you wanted it on terms that were not acceptable to your husband. The fact that you knew that they wouldn't be acceptable shouldn't be overlooked.

Even if you don't see what the big deal is, you gotta embrace the rule of protection, that you cannot be a source of unhappiness.

I think you do know why, you hinted at some questionable decisions your sister has made.

Again, while I don't think his behavor is stellar, I've gotta say that at least on the issue of who's in the house, I side with your H.

I know this can't be a one-way street forever, but set a timeframe where you just listen to what he is saying, validate his fears, concerns, dreams and desires and see if his demeanor doesn't change.

You look to yourself for your needs, and do what you can to meet his. Can't do it forever, but you can do it to see if his ice melts.

If it doesn't, then do you get to decide if you still want to be with him the way he is after you've done your best to meet his needs.

Now, you do need to let him know what your needs are, so he doesn't feel blindsided.

TB

Okay fine, I was wrong, even though I did not know he would be upset about the BF over. I do not think he needed to be so rude when he got home.

We just never get time together. I hate it that his friends always come first, and for once he chose me over them. Then since my sister left he said he was going to go out with them after all, which lead me to believe that he FOUND himself a way out of the date. However he did end up staying home, in the basement and watching a movie.

The guys who are responding (THANK YOU). In a guys perspective, do you think he is avoiding spending time with me? OR am I imagineing that?

KMEJ, you have gottten some good advice, only problem is it doesn't work when you are in an relationship with an abuser. Are you over reacting???? NO! Your one and only date gets sabotaged because he doesn't want a "strange" man (your sister's BF) in the house because he *might* steal? He hasn't even met the guy and if it is the norm for HIS siblings to bring a BF or GF over while babysitting why is this ANY DIFFERENT????

Well when H found out that my sister brought her BF to the house too he refused to go out, stateing that he did not want a guy he did not know in his home (afraid he would steal). I took it personally, like he was looking for an excuse not to go on the date with me. I had everything planned, I was all dolled up and ready for a night out with my H (it has been months). I figured he would get over it by the time he got home and we would go out and have a good time. Well he did not. He walked in the house walked right by myself and sister and BF and did not even say hello, even when I tried to introduce him to my sisters BF. H went upstairs and preceeded to watch the baseball game.

Your family already dislikes and distrusts him so I doubt your sister and H get along anyway. The boyfriend is just icing on the cake, aligned with the "enemy". The normal thing for a man to do is to meet the guy and assess him. If your H felt uncomfortable at that point he could have canceled the date. What he chose to do instead was decide ahead of time that he wasn't going.

The two of you have not had a date in months, let alone ANY time alone together at home (because he always has a friend over when you are home), he claims to want to do this but on that night of ALL nights has a meeting until 10:30 PM (!!??) You forge ahead anyway and he still manages to find a way out of it and then has the nerve to suggest it is YOUR fault! Huh?

This is what H wrote:
It is clear that you care nothing about me you are looking for a fight, a way out, but you want it to be My fault I told you this would happen one year ago, we are back there again. someone comes along you will be the one to take it this time if you want out.

I do not understand how my planning a date to be with him gets me that e-mail. Why is he always thinking I am looking to cheat on him when all I am really doing is trying to make him happy and save our crumbleing M????

You can't win here KMEJ, all of it is ALWAYS going to be your fault no matter what, don't you get that yet?

Point 7 in Dr. Joe Carver's article on abusive relationships:

7. It's Always Your Fault "The Loser" blames you for their anger as well as any other behavior that is incorrect. When they cheat on you, yell at you, treat you badly, damage your property, or embarrass you publicly - it's somehow your fault. If you are ten minutes late for a date, it's your fault that the male loser drives 80 miles per hour, runs people off the road, and pouts the rest of the evening. "The Loser" tells you their anger and misbehavior would not have happened if you had not made some simple mistake, had loved them more, or had not questioned their behavior. "The Loser" never, repeat "never", takes personal responsibility for their behavior - it's always the fault of someone else.

KMEJ:
I am wondering why whenever we try to do something as a couple it is sabotoged. I feel he never wants to spend time with me, or purposely ruins it. If I ever want to go out he thinks I am on the look out for a guy I can leave him for. I am not looking to cheat, I am looking to make this work. Why can't he see that?

He can't see that because he is most likely in CONTINUED CONTACT with OW. If he was not in contact why would he NEED to keep her phone numbers in his cell? He has told you that it is NOT an option to delete and that it is YOUR problem because you are looking into his phone...HELLO!!!!???? By constantly accusing you of being the one wanting to cheat, he takes the focus off of his own behavior.

You asked if you are missing something. YES. You cannot Plan A or rationalize with an abusive man. You cannot recover a marriage if there is continued contact.

Your best option is Plan B but you are not there yet. As long as you keep taking responsibility for all the wrongs in your marriage, as long as you keep apologizing and "fixing" and tiptoeing around your H, the damage to your Self will continue.

I am riding you hard on this I know, but I am hoping that you come to think ENOUGH of YOURSELF and YOUR CHILDREN to do something concrete about this mess. The first step is you MUST seek outside help in real life. You MUST be prepared for his next outburst and you MUST have a plan in place. You are consistantly minimizing his abuse and neglect of both you and the children and it has to STOP. You are all worth so much more than that. Make the calls KMEJ, please. KB

KB~
Let me start by saying Thank You! Your e-mail meant a lot. Second, I have started making the phonecalls.
Third, can I ask do do you live around MN?

No but if I did, you would be sitting at my kitchen table with a cup of coffee and a slice of my famous apple pie and a BIG box of tissues for BOTH of us! I am so glad to hear you will call someone, I go to sleep at night thinking of how hard this is for you and how hard you try and it BREAKS MY HEART. {{{hugs}}} KB

I miss sitting around with friends drinking coffee and shooting the breeze. I still sit around with friends and talk, however the coffee maker is mysteriously MIA (okay not so mystiously- H took it, said it made me to hyper- I know he did it because he loves me- but I said I would switch to decaf!!).

I want to snap my fingers and have everything be okay again. Oh to live in fantasy.

KMEJ, I'm curious...what did you want your husband to say in reply to your email? I'd like to know what you think an appropriate, sensitive response would be.

As for whether he is avoiding spending time with you. I'm not sure. Maybe. As I said eralier, the only way to know this for sure is to take away ALL of the excuses, so that basically the only choice that is left is yes or no to go out with you.

My wife and I were in your boat. We went for a long, long, long, time without going anywhere or doing anything togther, without the kids. But, we've both realized how much damage that has done to our relationship.

Now, we go out each Friday for a couple of hours. No kids - and a standing rule that non one can TALK about the kids.

We've had three of these dates so far...and each one has been more amazing than the one before it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KMEJ:
<strong> Okay fine, I was wrong, even though I did not know he would be upset about the BF over. I do not think he needed to be so rude when he got home.

We just never get time together. I hate it that his friends always come first, and for once he chose me over them. Then since my sister left he said he was going to go out with them after all, which lead me to believe that he FOUND himself a way out of the date. However he did end up staying home, in the basement and watching a movie.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So how was the movie? That's right, I'm asking if you joined him.

You asked for a guys perspective, so I hear you complaining about him not spending time with you, yet I'm willing to bet that you didn't sit down with him and watch the movie with him.

I really hope I'm wrong, but I suspect you didn't. (Yes,probably a DJ on my part <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KMEJ:
<strong>

The guys who are responding (THANK YOU). In a guys perspective, do you think he is avoiding spending time with me? OR am I imagineing that? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is he avoiding it, or just wants to do different things? This I don't know. I know he doesn't seem enthusiastic about what you want to do.

So what does he do when he goes out with the guys?
Have you taken an interest in any of these things.

Let me share from my experience. My wife said I didn't understand her, didn't know her, etc. You know what, she was right. She left and is having her affair now.

However, when I look back, I TRIED to get her involved. I used to Autocross a car (a motorsport hobbie/competition) and I asked if she would come out and watch some day, maybe even drive. Perhaps if she tried it she would have some fun. She said no, didn't want to spend all day out in the hot sun, etc.

Well, I wanted to do this, so I did. I got really good at it, won my class a few times, was really excited about it. She could care less because her needs weren't being met.

But the funny part is, why did I do it? Because my needs were not being met. I felt like I came last after the kids.

Did I do what she wanted, did I embrace her hobbies, dreams and desires? Nope, and now I'm alone, and she has filed for D.

My point here is that you can sit here and concentrate on all the ways he is upsetting you, disappointing you, but if you really want to save the marriage, at some point, you have to recognize that you can only change yourself, and that you have to look at what he is saying and stop dismissing it, and meet your husband where he is.

If he likes to watch Rambo movies, that's who he is, and if you want to be with him, from time to time you have to make his favorite popcorn and beverage and sit down to that movie with him.

Now, I'm not saying you should TAKE ABUSE from him. Set that boundary and walk away. Make it clear that you are not mad, that you simply will not accept that type of behavior, and that when he finds a more respectful way of presenting how he feels or thinks about an issue, you want to hear it. But his anger and disrespect are a certain barrier to communication, and because you love him and want to understand him, you want him to present the message without the interference the anger and disrespect cause.

At some point, if he doesn't get it, you have to decide to fish or cut bait.

I'm not saying he's not abusive, but what I do read is that you do help fuel that abuse. I'm not saying you are responsible for him abusing you, but you may be adding fuel to his fire.

Remove the fuel, do not tolerate the abuse, and show him how you want to be treated.

He either comes around or he doesn't.

TB

<small>[ October 27, 2004, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]</small>

You are right I did not go join him in the movie, however he did not ask me to either he told me to F-Off and said night. I took that that he wanted me to leave him alone. Maybe I should have went down stairs. However I did ask him to stay upstairs and talk with me and he said no.

Not do what he likes?? I planned the date to go BOWLING- that is something HE likes to do. I had planned the date around making him happy.

Can I ask why you say I fuel the fire? I am not persay disagreeing with you, just asking.

Java,

Wonderful post! You have grown so much since the time I met you. How have you been?

KME,

I think Java's advice is golden. You wanted a male perspective & you got one. For the record, one of my H's complaints & reasons he cared so deeply for the OW was b/c she took an interest in his desires, his hopes, his dreams, his interests. Our interests (my H & I's) are very different. But what we've learned how to do is do things we enjoy TOGETHER. RC is one of my H's top ENs. So, we both enjoyed pool. One of the first things we did when he moved back home (b/c we could afford it at the time) was buy a pooltable for recreation in our home. That small little gesture went a long way. We really enjoy playing pool together & invite friends over to join us.

I believe this was one event that helped trigger those special memories between us & got us off to a great start in building new memories.

This applies to my situation as well. Until recently, I didn't recognize how deep my need for admiration is. That doesn't mean I want my wife to worship me. I don't. But..I need her to be enganged and interested in some of the things that interest me. We are working very hard on this right now - finding mroe common interests and appreciating the interests that each of us already have.

Here's how a simple gesture can make a world of difference. My wife is very feminine. She played soem basketball in high-school, but otherwise, she's not terribly into sports.

But...when we moved to our new house three years ago, she'd see me in the back yard playing ball with the kids. One day, I asked her to join in. I pitched to her and she tried to hit. At first, she didn't so well. But, she got better and better.

I really cherish the few moments that she takes -usually after a long Sunday of work - to play catch or toss a football with me. Is it her favorite activity? Most likely not. Would she liek to be doing something else? Probably so. But..she learned to do these things - and she does them - because she wants to be close to me.

I love her for that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by StandingTogether:
<strong> Java,

Wonderful post! You have grown so much since the time I met you. How have you been?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm fine as long as I don't think about WW, her affair, and that I don't get to see my daughter near enough.

I really can only work on me.

Called her on 10/15 to thank her for being my YD's mom. She wondered what I was up to, saying she can't trust me etc.

I said, fine, my goal was to just thank her, but I see it bothers you, so I'll hang up and enjoy the rest of my time with her, see you around 7pm when you come pick her up.

I've grown, she can't see it. I could be frustrated by that, but instead, I'll just keep on being a better me and keep listening. I might learn something.

TB