Even though I have been really at the point of Plan B because WW continues to have daily telephone contact with OM (no PA, EA only), I'm not sure I can give up Plan A for Plan B yet.

WW tells me that I should be focusing on meeting her EN's instead of just telling her that what she's doing is wrong. Hard to argue with that. But then she tells me she doesn't believe I will ever be able to meet her needs. She says she and OM are "just alike" and they understand each other.

She doesn't want me to leave, still enjoys being with me, tells me from time to time that she loves me, etc.

So...here's what I am trying..

Tuesday night I printed out all info about the MB weekend in LA coming up Nov. 11 and 12. I talked to her about the seminar and the on-going program with follow-up from MB. I asked if she would be willing to go with me and she said "maybe". We didn't talk about it last night.

Tonight I want to give her a copy of the EN's assessment and ask if she will complete it for me to help me understand her better. I think she will.

Then....I'm going to schedule a counseling session with MB to discuss my situation and advice. Plan A more? Plan B now?

gg:

Decent plan, but I think it'll take more than one MB session 2 assess which plan, particularly plan B, you should be in right now. The C will need 2 get 2 know you better.

But the best thing would be for both of you 2 talk 2 the C and come up with a plan for both of you 2 follow. Do you think your W would be interested in that?

Sure, you should be meeting needs, but think about this: She's got the best of both worlds if you're meeting her needs at the same time the OM is. Keep putting the kabosh on that relationship as much as you can 2 pressure it 2 end. Keep tabs with the OMW, if she'll talk 2 you. After all, if the OM is just a good friend, your W won't mind at all.

At the same time you're meeting her needs, try not 2 expect her 2 meet yours, because you'll just be disappointed. Better, would be 2 focus on getting yourself 2 an emotionally healthy state so that you are less affected by the hurt your W is giving you. It will help you 2 plan A better, if that's what you do, and as you learn how 2 do this, you'll realize you're being less of a doormat and simply looking out for your own best interests.

Keep negotiating an end 2 the A, no matter what plan you go with.

-ol' 2long

GG,

To be honest, it doesn't sound to me like you've been in a good plan A yet (just basing this on what you've posted here).

Plan B only works after a stellar Plan A.

WW tells me that I should be focusing on meeting her EN's instead of just telling her that what she's doing is wrong.

Two BIG pieces of information here. Grab them and run with them!

1 - QUIT JUDGING your wife. Read up on love busters (again), and pay special attention to disrespecful judgments. Those are one of the toughest ones for me to recognize, and one of the most damaging, in my opinion. Work very very hard on this.

2 - Meet her ENs. You have a good plan in place to do this, I think, and you're VERY lucky that she's agreeing to fill out the questionnaire while she's still in the fog. I hope you realize how lucky you are. I'd also have her fill it out again after the fog has cleared for a while, if she's open to that. Her ENs might change when her emotional state changes. But don't mention all that now. Just see if she'll fill it out once and then meet her current ENs.


But then she tells me she doesn't believe I will ever be able to meet her needs.

Not at all unusual. Even when you do start meeting her ENs she'll suspect you're doing it "just to win her back" and that you're not sincere. That it won't stick. That you'll go back to your old habits. Just stay the course and let time (months) prove you are truly dedicated to making good changes in yourself and your M.

She says she and OM are "just alike" and they understand each other.

Yeah, that and .25 will buy you... well, nothing!

She doesn't want me to leave, still enjoys being with me, tells me from time to time that she loves me, etc.

Why in the name of anything that is sane would you even consider Plan B right now? She is giving you STRONG encouragement. Plan B may be in order if she cake-eats or sits on the fence after you've done a stellar Plan A, but get that Plan A in shape first.

Tuesday night I printed out all info about the MB weekend in LA coming up Nov. 11 and 12. I talked to her about the seminar and the on-going program with follow-up from MB. I asked if she would be willing to go with me and she said "maybe".

I think you should drop it. She isn't ready for this and your actions will be seen as controlling and manipulative. She'll feel coerced. Don't try to educate her, it will only backfire.

Tonight I want to give her a copy of the EN's assessment and ask if she will complete it for me to help me understand her better. I think she will.

If she does, something to keep in mind: She will probably bust you pretty bad and use the EN questionnaire as an excuse to criticize you and justify her A. Expect this, and DON'T LB. Just thank her for her contribution.

Forgot the obvious - have you exposed the A?

WW definitely is a cake-eater. Last night we watched a video together (very rarely do we rent movies), sat in the love seat with her head in my lap. She leaned over once and kissed me on the cheek when I wasn't expecting it.

When we went to bed, I removed her toe-nail polish for her (she loves to be "foot pampered".

Then I woke up at 1:45 AM to find her out of bed and talking to OM on the phone. I laid there awake until about 2:30 when she came back to bed. I was able to remain kind and talk with her a few minutes. She said she had a night sweat (she'd deeply in menopause) that woke her up and she couldn't get back to sleep. (Of course, didn't mention OM on the phone). She asked if I'd play with her hair to help her get back to sleep, which I did and we both slept the rest of the night.

Is the whole world this crazy and confused?

hmmm... Maybe when you point out to her what you'd like, or what hurts you, she takes that as criticism? Or do you really tell her she does things wrong (even if not in so many words)?

Like I said, I was only going by this one post. Sure sounds like lots of EN meeting is going on at your house. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Nothing to add, really - just kind of feel like maybe I "shot from the hip" and I should apologize if I did.

Welcome to my world...other recent threads by me are more complete on my situation.

Here's even more disturbing news...

The movie we watched was "Solaris". WW picked this out and was the very first time she has ever picked out a movie, no explanation from her. In the movie, the W and H have an argument and he leaves in anger. W tells him that she can't survive without him and he tells her that she just won't survive then. When H calms down and comes back home, he finds W has committed suicide.

My W has told me (about 2 weeks ago) that she does't know how she would survive if I left her. She's also told me that in the past she has had suicidal thoughts, and that OM is the only thing keeping her sane right now.

Don't know if the movie thing is a coincidence or not....but it makes me think long and hard about Plan B.

Does it get any harder than this?

Hello,

Your wife is a total cake eater. How do you think she would be acting if the roles were reversed?
She is totally disrespecting you as a husband. No consequences to her actions equals no motivation to change. From your description, I see no reason for her to change her behavior because there seems to be no consequences to her actions. Why should she change her behavior if you allow it?

I am a MB success story, having been in recovery for a year. I'm trying to stick in to help others that are in the situation I was in.

My FWH was the ultimate cake-eater! He definitely from DAY 1 wanted me and the FOW. Your WW seems closer to you than my FWH was to me at the point that you are in right now. He did not even want to touch me for awhile.

I would agree with the others that you need to hang in there and do a stellar PLAN A, focusing on meeting her emotional needs. Unfortunately, you may eventually need to do a PLAN B which seems necessary for cake-eaters. I know that you may not want to hear this now. So don't focus on that.

The only thing I would add that worked for me is the LOVE MUST BE TOUGH approach. Make sure that you make it clear that it is not OK for her to talk to the OM on the phone in your house. It is not acceptable for her to be disrespectful of you in your house. As a woman, she needs to see you as manly, the king of the castle. Your home is your castle! You can communicate this to her in an assertive tone.

Take Care. Hang in there. You're in a battle here which may take months, if not years. To me, my marriage was worth it but it was tough.

I'm surprised I'm not hearing support for the MB Weekend idea....does everyone agree with turtlehead?

The EA is about 50% exposed. OMW knows, WW's brother knows, one of our two sons knows. She says that I am trying to destroy her by letting other people know. That (when fog momentarily clears) she is not proud of what she is but (despite the fact I know otherwise) this is REALLY the woman she has always been and she has been "acting" throughout our marriage.

mimi - how do I do the NC in my house thing without it being a LB in her sight?

Sounds like I'm hearing a lot of "more and better Plan A required".

I'm surprised I'm not hearing support for the MB Weekend idea....does everyone agree with turtlehead?

The EA is about 50% exposed. OMW knows, WW's brother knows, one of our two sons knows. She says that I am trying to destroy her by letting other people know. That (when fog momentarily clears) she is not proud of what she is but (despite the fact I know otherwise) this is REALLY the woman she has always been and she has been "acting" throughout our marriage.

mimi - how do I do the NC in my house thing without it being a LB in her sight?

Sounds like I'm hearing a lot of "more and better Plan A required".

I'm surprised I'm not hearing support for the MB Weekend idea....does everyone agree with turtlehead?

The EA is about 50% exposed. OMW knows, WW's brother knows, one of our two sons knows. She says that I am trying to destroy her by letting other people know. That (when fog momentarily clears) she is not proud of what she is but (despite the fact I know otherwise) this is REALLY the woman she has always been and she has been "acting" throughout our marriage.

mimi - how do I do the NC in my house thing without it being a LB in her sight?

Sounds like I'm hearing a lot of "more and better Plan A required".

In regards to the MB Weekend, I agree that she is not ready. She is still "in the fog". The fog is a real thing ! It is temporary insanity. Think as your former wife as having been brainwashed. I used to call it "kidnapped by an alien". That alien has her mind.

I was in counseling with Steve Harley. He told me a lot of things that I will never forget. One comment early on was "You can't be a teacher if you don't have a student." Unfortunately, right now she is not in a learning mode because her mind is overtaken.

Your job right now is PLAN A for as long as possible.

Tell her about the phone, in a calm, matter-of-fact tone of voice. It will not be a LB unless you yell and scream. She may of course continue to hide and do it. However, at least, she knows that you will not condone such behavior right in your face. PLAN A does not mean that she gets the message that you are accepting of her continuation of the A. She needs to know that you expect her to end it and that she needs to come up with a plan to do so.

mimi - It's funny you use that term about the fog. When I was having dinner with #1 son Tuesday night, he asked if Mom had always been like this and he just didn't know it. I told him that no, his Mom used to be loving and kind. I told him that I suspected someday I would find him real Mom tied up in a barn somewhere and that this one is really an alien.

When WW was trying to pry out of me everything that S said over dinner, I told her that he asked if his Mom had always been this way. She said "What's changed about me? This is the way I've always been." Man, it's hard to believe the way this fog thing works.

Okay, I'm beginning to accept that maybe the MB Weekend isn't for us. It just seemed mid-way between good MC and no MC at all.

I remember the compulsion to want to rush things and to fix things. However, unfortunately, you have to wait this out.

Again, there really is a fog! It was like my FWH was under the influence of a drug. In fact, Steve Harley likened it to an addiction. The OM, along with being an alien, is a drug dealer.

Now that my FWH is out of the fog, he is really himself again- most of the time. Sometimes, very infrequently, he slips into that foggy thinking. The foggy thinking includes whatever crazy thoughts kept the A brewing. This is also fueled by the drug dealer.

Sit back and observe if you can rather than react and want to fix things. I promise you. You will learn a lot. She is the sick one at this time. Not you.

<small>[ October 28, 2004, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Thanks, Mimi - I really appreciate that.

I just got back from having lunch with WW. During the course of lunch, I comented on the movie and asked why she choose that one. She nonchalantly replied "Oh, OM recommended it. He said it was kind of weird."

Hummmm...I think I'm being manipulated here.

I can't figure out why she feels it's OK to talk so openly with you about the OM?

Is she trying to provoke you into an argument? What was your response?

Of course, she is definitely foggy, looking at a movie with you that was recommended by the OM.

YUK!!!!

mimi -

I just pretended she didn't say it and went on to some other topic of conversation.

Was this some hidden message about the suicide in the movie and what I might provoke if I left? I don't know, maybe I'm reading too much into it.

Everytime I get a new, fresh desire to Plan A with vigor and gusto.....my sails start to deflate and I wonder just how much of this sort of stuff I can take. I know that compared to what lots of the folks here are going through, this is really almost minor. There has been no PA, OM currently lives 3,000 miles away, WW still wants me in her life (she prefers devils' food cake, apparently). We even still have sporadic activities that would make me blush to talk about them.

But then, I get hit right between the eyes with OM again....

I would continue to do PLAN A. It sounds like she's trying to provoke you into LBing in order to feel OK about continuing her A.

Don't worry about the suicide issue. I think it's part of the fog and gameplaying. If she does do something like that it won't be your fault, she's playing her own dangerous, self-destructive game by being involved in an A.

I would ask her to stop throwing him up in your face though. Remember say it calmly, matter-of-factly. I believe it's part of PLAN A for you to ASK for her respect of you as a man. It makes you more attractive. JMHO

<small>[ October 28, 2004, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Thanks, Mimi -

I have found that when I do anything to let her know that I don't want to hear about OM, I'm often hit with a barage of things like...."Well, if I was married to him, I wouldn't be having to do this....".

So, as I've told her more times than I can count about how I feel about hearing about OM, I've kinda adapted the philosophy that I am unable to hear his name or respond to comments about him. Several weeks ago I got an earful of "you act like he doesn't even exists...and you know he's my best friend".

Is there any kind of anti-fog drug us BS's can administer?