Until you have been on the receiving side of an affair, you cannot truely understand the sudden shift in world view that happens when you find that the person who was supposed to be protecting your back has instead deliberately and methodically turned around and cut you to pieces.
Brings new meaning to the term "dead before he even knew it".
Affairs take planning, they take full knowledge of action and intention. He knows that.
In essence, you throw away someone who has built you into the stucture of their world, with your encopuragement and invitation.
Yes, her husband was out of line for having bad aim.
Was he out of line for his pain and the sudden shock of the situation that caused a normally in control man to lose it?
Not at all.
Expect more. Expect to hear more from him. Expect to be held accountable. And if he is worth anything to you, expect to do what you are claiming you won't do.
The point being, is that your husband entrusted a sacred piece of himself to you and you threw it away in a very deliberate way.
It does not feel very good.
He may, in fact, love you very much and ultimately may allow that love to work on your behalf. In the meantime, leave him alone. His own feelings need sorted out enough that he can be around you in a way that is productive and not harmful to you. You really don't want him around right now, or you may end up getting some more of the consequences that you clearly believe you do not deserve to have to deal with.
I can practically guarantee you will be dealing with it, or you will be divorced by him.

You also said you told H out of guilt. Is this the only reason you told him? It's another interesting bit of info especially tied to the whole begging thing....if it was done out of guilt, then what you confessed, well, it was your taker, not giver that did the confession. Perhaps something else to think on there.

But, I do believe you did the right thing. I also think you have a really good opportunity now...let's say you H does confront OM. OM most likely will call you...you can then in turn, shoot down OM's advance or call, or whatever. You can together with your H write a NC, and explain your contempt and disgust over the road this OM helped you traverse. Sure, maybe you thought you were recovered, but, you and your husband are one flesh...so, until he knew/knows about the A, you can't recover. Now, it can begin.

It really sucks not knowing what the other spouse is thinking doesn't it? For the first time, the shoe is on the other foot. Welcome to the club. (That wasn't supposed to sound snotty or bad, it was just sort of an idea that popped into my head, I just realized that up until confession, you had been completely in the drivers seat, and for the first time, you aren't) and you seem to actually be panicking abit, in all directions.... hmmm.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Thos:
<strong> :: “We ALL Are responsible for our own behavior. This is not *blaming the victim*. This is blaming someone who acted inappropriately for his own actions. Does that mean that dreamcatcher is not responsible for her own actions? NO! But it DOES mean that her husband is responsible for HIS own actions.”

Precisely. Accurately hold BH accountable for his actions. Accurately hold WW accountable for her actions. It is relative. But crucify the innocent to protect the guilty? I don’t think so. If we get to do that, I nominate you first up.

Actually, maybe not precisely. Blame is a dirty word according to most infidelity texts. BS is not to blame WS for anything. But you seem to imply everyone can blame BS.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">T- I'm not understanding what you are saying here. Blame the BS for what? All I said was that it is not acceptable to throw beer bottles at your wife- and that her A does not justify such behavior on his part. Could you explain?

::::YOU DID NOT / DO NOT DESERVE THAT KIND OF TREATMENT!!!!!!

It's not about whether any one deserves it. It's about intense pain which caused aclochol abuse which caused loss of control.

Did the H deserve to be cheated on?

It's not about whether he deserved it, it's about the wife being flattered and liking how that made her feel and wanting to get more validation from someone who wasn't her husband and enjoying the attention and feeling great and not caring enough about what the consequences would be.

Can you see the problem? No one deserves any of this. To be honest, I would prefer to have a bottle thrown at my head than to discover that my H was doting over and spending money on and kissing/touching a prettier, younger female than me, his wife of 30yrs. That type of abuse caused terrible weight loss for a year and health problems that needed specialist care and emotional problems that are on going 2 yrs on. How long will the cut above the eye take to heal?

Full marks to the wife for facing her mistake and her bravery in confessing. I hope that her husband will appreciate what a brave thing it was for her to do that. I wish my husband had confessed, but he was too gutless.

AN

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by anyname:
<strong> ::::YOU DID NOT / DO NOT DESERVE THAT KIND OF TREATMENT!!!!!!

It's not about whether any one deserves it. It's about intense pain which caused aclochol abuse which caused loss of control.

Did the H deserve to be cheated on?

It's not about whether he deserved it, it's about the wife being flattered and liking how that made her feel and wanting to get more validation from someone who wasn't her husband and enjoying the attention and feeling great and not caring enough about what the consequences would be.

Can you see the problem? No one deserves any of this. To be honest, I would prefer to have a bottle thrown at my head than to discover that my H was doting over and spending money on and kissing/touching a prettier, younger female than me, his wife of 30yrs. That type of abuse caused terrible weight loss for a year and health problems that needed specialist care and emotional problems that are on going 2 yrs on. How long will the cut above the eye take to heal?

Full marks to the wife for facing her mistake and her bravery in confessing. I hope that her husband will appreciate what a brave thing it was for her to do that. I wish my husband had confessed, but he was too gutless.

AN </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry- no. Physical violence is not an acceptable answer- no matter what the *trigger*.

Dreamcatcher, just wanted to say that you absolutely did the right thing by confessing. It would otherwise undermine your M forever. You now have a chance and as others have said a very good chance of full recovery. I applaud you for posting this here and taking your lumps. While us BS's are in tremendous pain the limited number of WS's here give this forum it's tremendous value. Hang in there you're moving in the right direction now.

Sadfww, I also applaud your comments on this thread. You have not gotten defensive in my opinion but only stated the facts without emotion getting in the way. I think you also bring a lot to the table. I never get to see this kind of remorse at home and it is helpful to begin to understand the other side.

Dreamcatcher,

I've lost the respect of my children forever..

The stability of your children's lives has just been given a kick in the gut. Things they thought they "knew" deep down - like the sun coming up in the east - have just been turned upside down. It is way too early to predict a long term outcome where they are concerned. How you handle this situation now can open the door for them to forgive you and respect you again. Your behavior is a *prerequisite*, not a guarantee.

tell me his address so I can go have a 'talk' with him...wtf??? I haven't spoken to OM in over 6 months!!..I don't want him back in my existance at all!!...

The A is old news to you, but new news to your H. To him, this is all happening RIGHT NOW. Give him some space but make sure he knows you're there for him if/when he's ready to turn to you. Give him patience, time, empathy, and understanding. Avoid LBs like the plague.

he doesn't want to hear that I went through hell emotionally to end it because I love him so much...he just won't listen...

Dreamcatcher, the LAST thing your H is going to be sympathetic to right now is any "hell" you went through to end it with *someone else*. Think of this from his perspective. You drop a bomb on him by revealing the A, then you twist the knife by telling him what hell you went through to end it. Those of us familiar with the dynamics of an A understand what you're saying - but your H is nowhere near that yet. Quite frankly, many BS never really understand that.

You did do the right thing by telling him about it. For one thing, you can begin to live with yourself a little easier. You're free to rebuild your integrity. And your H won't find out by accident months or years from now.

Keep posting.

thank you to everyone who keeps reinforcing that I did the right thing by telling...I go back and forth on my feelings about that, I know it had to come out eventually, as these things usually do...but I can't help but think that if I would have kept my mouth shut, this weekend coming up would have been something we would both be looking forward to as usual..instead I'm wondering if he's even going to come home...he's probably wondering if he even wants to come home.

I wish I knew what to expect if/when he does come home...I know I will insist that there be no alcohol involved if we do 'talk'...I don't hold the 'beer bottle incident' against my H, but I'm not about to put myself in a position to have things thrown at me again.
I haven't told my family about any of this...don't plan on it at this point anyway..I think I will try to get together with my close gf though, tell her some of the sordid story...I've been keeping this in all week...told nobody but this board..and now i'm rambling..

Anyway, I didn't give H the OM's address because I don't know it, but I told him that if he has to I can give him his cell #..I really really hope he decides not to call him though..it's been so over for so long...some things just shouldn't be stirred up ya know?...

::::Sorry- no. Physical violence is not an acceptable answer- no matter what the *trigger*.

Why is emotional assult of less importance than a physcial assult?

I don't condone violence under any circumtances. But I could far more understand it as a one off reaction to the shock of learning your spouse has been unfaithful - especially when alcohol has been used to anaesthetise the pain.

Many BWs have hit out at their WHs on learning of their unfaithfulness. Women who've never before been violent have attacked their husbands. People tend to ignore this and brush it aside as understandable. Isn't this the kind of double standards I'm refering to?

AN

Dreamcatcher,

Would giving your H the phone # lead to him finding the address? I know a lot of us can claim that we want to kill someone when we’re mad and not really go through with it, but there have been plenty of “crimes of passion” in the news over the years. Add alcohol into the mix, and the situation becomes even more volatile.

People with no history of violence have “snapped” and committed murder. Even if there are people who believe the OM deserves to be killed, your H could spend the rest of his life in jail, or worse.

It’s not a healthy situation for your H or OM. Please be very careful. If you get in a situation where you are in physical danger, call the police. Also, if you believe your H finds out where OM lives and is on his way there to do some harm, call the police. There’s no reason for this to get any worse than it is already.

You can't change the fact that you have confessed to your H any more than you can change the fact of the A. What's done is done, and now all you can do is deal with the aftermath. Cling to God with all your might. When all is said and done, God is who we answer to, and He is the one who will always be there, no matter what.

God bless,

Rose

Add me to the list of those who think you did the right thing by telling. Your H does have that comfort, no matter how insignificant it may seem to him today, that YOU chose to end it because it was the RIGHT thing to do.

The largest obstacle in our recovery is that H lied and lied, then confessed in bits as I uncovered evidence. He hasn't built back my trust in him. I know there are still things he won't tell me because I have no hard evidence. Your H will have a foundation to start with, your voluntary confession. You are on the right path, even if it feels like a mistake sometimes. Facing consequences is HARD, you chose the difficult path, you were willing to be vulnerable and reveal your true self to your H. It is a wonderful gift, and probably the most essential step in recovery.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by anyname:
<strong>
Why is emotional assult of less importance than a physcial assult?


AN </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Who said it was? I said that each was responsible for his/her actions. One bad action does not excuse the other- i.e. physical violence isn't an excuse to have an A- nor is an A an excuse for physical violence. Both are wrong.

DC,

If you know that you have been a good mother to your children, then take comfort in the knowledge that their hurt will in time subside and they will once again regain their respect for you. Your son seems to be a bit further than your daughter with respect to this. It's been my experience as a father of two girls [and that of other fathers as well] that daughters are much more protective of their fathers when it comes to other women [including their mothers] hurting them and if your daughter loves her father very much, her lashing out at you may be a defensive posture to protect her father. In a couple of weeks from now [when the dust will have settled], you may get the chance to have a talk with both of your children and express to them how sorry you are for hurting them and their father and that you were wrong to have an affair to resolve the marital issues you had with their father. Your demonstration of remorse to them will go a long way in helping them heal and restore the respect they had for you.

Now the following comment is only applicable if the situation deteriorates into further physical violence. IF he repeats his violent behavior you need to get away from the environment. Don't get into the mindset of saying to yourself that he should be the one to leave because he is the instigator of the violence. The last thing you two need is a clash of egos that will further exacerbate the situation. Your children need at least one parent to act rationally and if your H is not up to the task then it is up to you to step up to the plate and do so. Affair or no affair, there is NO EXCUSE for physical violence between spouses. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Wow. What a thread. First off, nice to meet you, dreamcatcher. You have been very brave. I know what you did was not easy, as it was not easy when my FWH did it, either.

The first thing I read, that I wanted to comment on, is that one of the reasons you gave for confessing was so that you could receive forgiveness from your H. I personally believe that your H cannot forgive, until you forgive yourself. That said, and to take it one step further, perhaps you are truly seeking self-forgiveness, but you are putting that on your H. I guess in my simple-brain, since you cannot control anyone but you, it is an unrealistic expectation to receive HIS forgiveness ~ but you can certainly work on receiving it from your own self.

The seond thing I wanted to comment on is the physical violence. Before D-day, when I found a VERY incriminating email (which he lied and excused away, of course, and I chose to believe him) at H's office, I very much wanted to physically attack him. I think my "fight or flight" chemicals were definately pumping, because I wanted to attack him and hurt him, and at the same time I wanted to run far far away - very quickly. AND, I was sober. I vaguely remember grabbing at him, pulling at his coat, perhaps even beating on his chest. I don't really remember very clearly.

My kid were there, too. I don't think they lost any respect for their father. He hurt them, with his actions, and when he left us. But he has been back for over 6 months now. Now, I think they realize people are not their mistakes. People make mistakes, but those mistakes do not have to DEFINE who you are. They can, if you choose to let them, but you don't have to live that way. It is not healthy for you, your family, nor is it a good role-model for your kids to see. I feel my kids know that if they mess up royally, that they have a safe place to fall, because we love them unconditionally.

The third thing (yes, this thread is so long, I actually made a LIST of things I wanted to respond to <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) kind-of goes along with the second thing, in that groveling and begging is no good for anyone. It's not pretty, as another poster said, and the mentality that you put yourself in when doing that is not healthy. AND, just because you made mistakes, you don't want your H to think he can lord over you with your mistakes, and whack you with them all the time. Just as you (if it is indeed the isolated incident I am getting it was) shouldn't shout back that "at least I didn't throw a beer bottle at your head" kind of thing.

I very much agree with JL, in that your H needs to go to his "cave (Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus term)," alone, and figure some of this stuff out before he can have a conversation with you. He might be in his cave for a week, or 10 days, or whatever. I think the more time you give him, without pressure of him doing anything to ease YOUR feelings (totally understandable, no DJ here!), the faster the process will go. That is just how men process. By themselves. Us girls like to talk it all out to figure it out. Not them. Just different. If you haven't read the afore-mentioned book, BTW, I highly recommend it. Very tip of the iceburg, IMO, about how men and women interact. Good place to start, anyway.

My forth is that your H does not hate you. Hate is not the opposite of love, it is the other side of love. For him to have those strong feelings for you, means that he very much loves you. He is hurting, and that is his self-protection mechanism. As you said in one of your posts (I think it was the drinking one! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ), this behavior from him is HIS behavior. Just as your A was about you not him, his behavior is about him, not you. Does that make sense? I honestly would be more concerned about your M if he was a passionate guy, who when you told him of your A, he said, "Oh, that sucks. Oh well." The deepness of his hurt reflects many things about him. How he deals with pain, how he feels pain, how much he loves you, his own belief system about you and your M and how he feels about infidelity. He has a LOT to process.

I really enjoyed the posts on here from Tom Joad and 2scared. They were very balanced, and very practical.

Hang onto this rollercoaster you just got yourself onto. It is a wild ride, but worth it, no matter how it turns out. God doesn't give you more than you can handle - just enough to grow.

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FinallyLearning:

i don't think anyone is crucifing him but i don't care what kind of news a person hears, throwing a beer bottle in the direction of a person is 100% WRONG!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">On D-day I threw a wild punch and gave H a swollen lip.

I did not even remember doing this until H told me later his lip hurt.

Pep, the abusive wife

DC

Your story is just so close to mine.

I too told my H about 4 months ago about my A and yes, everything did go to h*ll for a while.
My 18 dd & 17 ds found out because we were yelling at each other. Him angry me begging, and yes I was begging to be forgiven.

We went around & around it for so many weeks that ‘believer ‘a long time poster here was thinking my H could not forgive me, simple as that. So did I as well.

I just couldn’t bring myself to tell him all the details when he asked and this made things even worse.
He felt if he had that he could be more accepting.

But finally he & I agreed with some great encouragement from people here to try MC and try one last time.
Has it worked?? Well I would not say we are recovered, but we don’t fight now, the kids no longer think I’m the lowest slime life on earth, - just a very stupid B*tch and who can deny that..
I think we can get over this but it will take total commitment to him by me.

I can take the odd name calling, the odd remark, even the deeply disturbing hurt looks, but the loss of trust is devastating. It all hurts but this hurts most of all.
All the experienced people here and our MC say time will also heal most of this pain for both of us. It gives me hope.

Your H needs time to process his shock and anger. I would be very hesitant to give him any of the OM details right now because in anger he may do something stupid even if not violent to the OM. I waited until I new for sure the OM had moved with his wife to another state. My H was actually so angry about that funny enough. MC explained its probably because the BS don’t want to hate us so they hate the OM instead.
Our MC said to acknowledge his anger saying Yes I understand why you feel that way, etc & when he talked of going away things like our children also have a need of you right now so please consider your decision carefully.etc

This will be a very hard time for you because he will probably reject everything you say to him, and refuse to listen. You can only wait, repeat that you CHOOSE him because you LOVE him.

And don’t be as silly as I was and hold off telling him what he wants to know. Yes he will probably get angry all over again when you do but its better than not telling him. It increases his dsitrust of you.

Read the books recommended & get a good pro Marriage MC even if you are the only one who goes for now. Taking these positive steps may help your H to decide to try & work it out.

Just remember there’s always a chance no matter how bad it looks, many M do recover and go on to a new relationship with their spouses .
And we are all here to help much as we can.

SWW Wrote: "T- I'm not understanding what you are saying here. Blame the BS for what? All I said was that it is not acceptable to throw beer bottles at your wife- and that her A does not justify such behavior on his part. Could you explain?"

Hmm, maybe not. The piling-on of BH that I read in the first few posts pulled a trigger for me. And you did use the b word. Wife used my DDay2 reactions against me for a long time. (She doesn't now, but she did.) And I was not anywhere near violent at all. I just felt DC’s BH needed a representative of some sort in his corner.

Look, people react in unexpected ways in crisis situations. First thing I did was get blotto (and I never drink). Then I withdrew and licked my wounds for a few weeks. Then I hobbled up on the moral high ground for a while. Later, after I read a lot here on MB, I learned some better things to do - mainly make my own life the best I can and let W make her own choices. But she has to answer for them, at least to herself, which she had not been doing for over 10 years.

So, re. blaming or judging the BH - don't. You are not in his shoes. It's a DJ. You have no right, IMO. What DC did to her BH is a lot worse, a lot more painful, and a lot more life threatening than an accidental flying bottle. It may well end his life, as he knows it. More blood is seeping from his heart than did from her head, and still is - you just can't see it.

Do I excuse physical violence? No, absolutely not. It is wrong, but all things are relative. What would you do to a thief/potential rapist breaking into your house in the middle of the night? Would you use violence to protect yourself and your family? I think you would. I would. Well, DC was suddenly transformed into his mortal enemy. She had been acting to destroy his family, his whole life. Alcohol (which he used to dull the pain) made him lose normal inhibitions and lash out at this enemy that almost magically appeared in front of him. DC says he is not like this, never acted violent before, and wasn't even aiming at her. So place it in context, for crying out loud. Don't broad-brush everything so willingly.

Maybe you have your own triggers regarding M abuse. Sorry if yours were pulled too.

T

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Thos:
<strong> So, re. blaming or judging the BH - don't. You are not in his shoes. It's a DJ. You have no right, IMO. What DC did to her BH is a lot worse, a lot more painful, and a lot more life threatening than an accidental flying bottle. It may well end his life, as he knows it. More blood is seeping from his heart than did from her head, and still is - you just can't see it.
T </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thos- go back and read my posts. I did not blame or judge the BH. All I said was that physical violence is not acceptable- and that she didn't "deserve" it.

:::So, re. blaming or judging the BH - don't. You are not in his shoes. It's a DJ. You have no right, IMO. What DC did to her BH is a lot worse, a lot more painful, and a lot more life threatening than an accidental flying bottle. It may well end his life, as he knows it. More blood is seeping from his heart than did from her head, and still is - you just can't see it

Thos, I don't think sadwwf was alone in her reaction. Let's face it, traditionally we've all been conditioned to believe that violence, of any kind is wrong. More wrong (on the wrong scale) than infidelity. You and I both know the physical fall-out and emotional devastaton of discovering our spouse's infidelity. In my case, it might end up killing me - because of my family history of breast cancer and I've been closely monitored for the last ten years to keep a close eye on my condition. It's well known that stress is implicated in cancer. My H will be a very sorry man if he has to watch me die and spend his retirment years on his own because he couldn't keep his hands off a stupid young woman who was playing him for a fool. (she wanted and asked for money from him)

One of the things I regret is not kneeing my H in the b*lls when I discovered the photo's of him with a girl, half his age. I wish I'd given him the full force of my extremely fit (daily swimmer) thighs. He'd have been in agony. It would be nothing in comparison to the agony that I would endure in the next 2 yrs (anniversary 2 days ago). I may be finally recovering. Though sleep is a thing of the past for me and still on meds for stomach acid. I've got a book that says the stress from infidelity is thought to take between 10 to 14 yrs off a person's life.

I do sympathise with sadwwf's opinion - and I think we have to set no violence as the standard. But those of us who know what it's like to be cheated on, cannot help but symapthise with those who break the rule in response to *the other rule* being broken. Whether it be female to male or male to female. My own son told his father that he'd beat the living *&^% out of him if he did anything like that again. And my son is a [censored] cat!

SadWW quote: “Sorry- no. Physical violence is not an acceptable answer- no matter what the trigger.”

Ok, agreed.

But you did write: “This is blaming someone who acted inappropriately for his own actions.”

Nor is an A an acceptable answer, no matter what the trigger.

The difference here is the A in question, and yours too I presume, was planned and executed over a long period of time with malice aforethought. DC’s H acted in extremis. There is a world of difference, morally, ethically and legally. It is analogous to premeditated murder vs. manslaughter. Personal responsibility is absolute in both cases. Culpability and resulting penalties are hugely different, though.

I am not equating an A to murder, of course, but there are comparative lessons to be examined.

As Anyname wrote, A’s often do cause serious physical violence to the BS. In fact, A’s are premeditated physical violence as well as premeditated emotional violence. Anyname and I have both suffered physical hurt as a direct result of our spouses A’s. (Try reading DLee’s thread in recovery if you don’t believe A’s cause physical harm to the BS.) In particular, I developed a stress-caused aneurysm in my left eye that rendered me almost blind. It still comes back occasionally even now. I lost 30 lbs. I started smoking again. Intestinal problems requiring a Dr’s intervention. I suffered a great deal at work, and I still am. The list of harmful physical effects goes on and on and will most likely also show up in the future.

Did your H suffer at all due to your A? Or did he not care much one way or the other.

On TOW you can read many WS claim the consequences suffered by their spouse are their own fault. WTF? I can’t believe anyone here thinks this! But I seem to read in some of these posts that the BS must above all control their feelings. At the same time the poor WS is sort of let off the hook with regard to not controlling their feelings wrt their sordid A. Why? Well, because they are finally coming clean. Now it’s the BS who is blamed if they are not perfect in their reactions to their intense feelings.

Bottom line: A’s are a much worse violence compared to momentarily losing control when you discover your life and family is destroyed by the one person you trusted above all others.

But, I don’t blame anyone for anything. I don’t blame my W because experts say it is not productive. But if WW’s want to blame their BH’s in how they react on DDay, that’s OK with me. I just will not accept it. And I don’t accept the blame meted out here to DC’s H on his behalf either.

Anyname – a book recommendation for you: Plato Not Prozac, by Dr. Lou Marinoff. You may find it useful in recovering from betrayal of this magnitude. It is an ethical, not moral, look at dealing with life’s problems, including marital infidelity (that’s such a minimizing term for such a huge premeditated traitorous series of acts, isn’t it). I am a practicing Catholic and find my help in God. But the secular approaches described in this text helped me too, especially the B-Series discussion. And, the discussion on moral relativism is very good. It directly applies to this discussion. A’s are wrong and losing control in an emotional crisis is wrong. But they are not the same wrongness. Some things are indeed more wrong than others.

T